I'm Torn about Shutting Down the Southern Border

[MineralMan]

Part of me doesn't want Trump to shut it down, due to the severe disruption that would have on the economy and people's lives.

The other part of me wants Trump to shut it down, for the very same reasons.

In some ways, I want Trump to do something that will succeed in pissing off so many people that he takes a massive hit to his popularity with his cave-dwelling reactionary base. Those people have no idea how much their lives depend on robust, open trade with Mexico. I'd like to see them experience the results of a border closure.

Still, such a shutdown would also affect people whose lives I have no wish to disrupt.

What I truly wish is that Trump would fly away somewhere and never return. That would be the very best outcome.

[ProudMNDemocrat]

1. What good will it do????????

Other than fuel Trump's dwindling base to HATE and DISTRUST anyone who does not look like them, speak like them, worship like them?


As well as to create Economic chaos in this country, cause inflation to rise on commodities that come via the Southern Border, give Democrats even more ammunition to use against him, and further DISTRACT and divide this country from the real enemy....HIMSELF???

[MineralMan]

12. Like I said, I'm torn.

I believe it would hurt Trump, but I know it would also hurt lots of other people, but then, Trump hurts lots of other people every day, so...

[pangaia]

14. CHAOS is the intent.

Don;t be torn, MM.. It would add to chaos and that would NOT turn out well, no matter what, in my view.

[gldstwmn]

69. Correct. n/t

[lark]

2. Closing the border in CA would be really bad, Texas not as much.

So naturally drumpf will want to do it in CA, won't want to mess up the Texas economy, is my bet. He is ignorant, sure, but he has the smart one (PUtin) advising him on how to wreak max damage on our economy and on the nation and especially Dems. I would applaud (somewhat, would feel sorry for rational Texans) closing the border in Texas, if he's going to do this at all, do it there where his supporters will earn some of what they love to dish to others.

[MineralMan]

10. Actually, if he closed it in Texas, it would have a major impact.

A lot of shipping to and from Mexico uses I-35. That North/South Interstate highway serves the entire Midwestern region from Texas to Minnesota. It intersects with every East/West Interstate that crosses the nation From I-10 to I-90/94, meaning that commerce that passes through Texas comes from and goes to all sorts of major markets.

Really, the impact of shutting down the Texas border would be much greater than shutting down the CA/MX border. Here's a story that explains it:

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-44108760

[C Moon]

28. Then they would probably create stipulations so the rich GOPutins wouldn't be hurt.

[Blue_playwright]

61. Wichita here!

And, yup, I35 is a major commerce corridor. It would have a profound impact around the flyover states.

[MineralMan]

70. Yup. I spent a night in Wichita when moving to Minnesota from California.

We turned left off I-40 onto I-35 for the final leg of our trip, and stayed at a Motel 6 in Wichita one night. I was driving a 24' used UHaul van I bought from UHaul, and my wife was driving our minivan. What a trip!

I remember my wife asking my why I didn't have a road atlas or something in the truck. I told her there were only two turns on our trip before we got to our destination. A right onto I-40 and a left onto I-35. No map required. She followed me the entire drive, and ran interference behind me when I needed to change lanes. Worked out great. We stayed at Motel 6s every night, because they allowed us to bring our cats into the room and always had pullthrough truck parking spaces. Ugly rooms, though.

[HAB911]

3. I'm in the same boat

Let him do some of the idiotic things he spouts off about and let the chip fall where they may.

[Cousin Dupree]

4. I am conflicted in the same way.

But I am so frustrated with him always getting away with murder, I am leaning toward the terrible idea of the borders closing. Maybe THAT is what will do him in. I’m almost ashamed of the way I am thinking lately.

[LonePirate]

5. I'm surprised his physical health hasn't caught up to him yet.

[panader0]

6. As a person who lives close, within eyesight, of the border,

I think it would have a massive negative impact.
I understand what you're saying, but I think a shutdown could cause
a huge amount of violence. Prices of food in the US would soar, restaurants
would go out of business. Hell, even the local Wal-Mart might shut down.
I can look out my window and see San Jose peak, next to Naco, Mexico.
Trump is only trying to distract from the Mueller report and will never
follow through on this ridiculousness.

[MineralMan]

11. He may well end up NOT shutting down the border,

but he does not operation on rational decision-making, I think. So, it could happen.

I'm sure there are many, many people advising him not to do it, but Trump is a contrarian and may do it just to spite those who tell him not to. He is not a rational person.

[dobleremolque]

50. If you drive along Interstate-19, from Tucson to Nogales...

there is a 3 or 4 mile stretch from Rio Rico on south of nothing but produce warehouses ... side by side for miles. These are the people who import and then ship onwards into the U.S., something like 80% of the winter produce consumed in this country. The trucks to supply this market come through the Mariposa port of entry in Nogales.

The recent headlines said we'd run out of avocados in three weeks if the border is closed. Add to that tomatoes, lettuces of all varieties, green onions, bell peppers, broccoli, celery, etc.

A friend of mine is a contract produce grower for those chi-chi frou-frou restaurants where you pay $$$ for 3 or 4 baby turnips artfully arranged on the plate. His farm is in Imuris, about 45 miles south of the border. He won't be able to meet his obligations to his customers if the border closes. Although maybe he can fly the goods, adding more $$ to your fancy restaurant bill.

My neighbor said he made a panic run to Nogales, Sonora this weekend to stock up on his medications which he can buy in Mexico for a fraction of what they cost in the U.S. even with insurance.

I have a dental followup appointment on the Mexican side that I may have to reschedule if the border is closed. US quote for the work I needed...$33,000. I paid my Mexican dentist $6,000 for the equivalent, high quality, thoroughly competent work. An acquaintance is flying in from Ohio for his second round with this Mexican dentist. He can do airfare to Tucson, hotel, rental car for the 60 mile drive to Nogales AND pay the Mexican dentist for less than if he had the work done in Ohio.

People really have no idea of how closely tied to Mexico we are.

Hola, panader0! Glad to see a fellow Baja Arizonan!

[panader0]

77. When I ived in Patagonia and workrd in Nogales

we laid block on several warehouses.
Hola to you too

[cwydro]

7. I completely understand.

He’d piss off a bunch of people doing that.

[JenniferJuniper]

8. "Let all the poisons that lurk in the mud hatch out."

Loved I Claudius

[malaise]

9. Indeed

Rec

[roamer65]

13. I am dead set against it.

I don’t want to push Mexico into the ready arms of the Sino-Russian alliance. If we screw up the Mexican economy that is where they will go quite quickly with AMLO in power.

[nevergiveup]

15. I Hear Ya

[edhopper]

16. I doubt even that massive clusterfuck

will dissuade his supporters.

[SammyWinstonJack]

84. Isn't he setting the stage to place the on blame Congress(Dems)

just like he did with HIS government shut down? EVIL!

[edhopper]

86. He will

but like the shutdown. Only his lunatic base will believe him.

[LiberalArkie]

17. I am more worried about trump shutting the border with Canada.

[MineralMan]

18. I don't think he's thinking about that, though.

[TexasBushwhacker]

19. It WILL NOT reduce migration by much

Migrants will just have to cross outside ports of entry, since those will be closed. It may mean more die in the process and it will certainly have an impact on business, around $300 Million in Texas alone. He must think Texas is solid red. It won't be when he hits people in the wallet.

[MineralMan]

20. Oh, it won't really affect migration.

That's not Trump's real goal. He wants his wall, and is willing to trash the economy to get it. He seems to think that if he shuts the border down for normal traffic and commerce, that will somehow translate to getting his $billions to build his useless wall. He's wrong, of course.

He has no idea of how much commerce flows across the border in both directions. So, he's just using this as a symbolic thing, He doesn't understand that the day he shuts it down, the impacts will begin, and those impacts will be disastrous to far more people and businesses than he can even imagine.

Trump is an idiot, masquerading as a President.

[bigbrother05]

29. Think his primary hidden motive is to punish Mexico

Thinks shutting the border while cutting aid to Central America will hurt the Mexican economy and also force thousands more migrants north to squeeze them until there is a catastrophe.

The man is deranged.

[MineralMan]

33. Maybe that's part of it, but I don't think he gives a damn about Mexico.

He wants to make himself more powerful here. Right now, he can't get a damned thing through Congress, since we regained a majority in the House. So, he's more or less limited to whatever Executive Branch actions he can take. Shutting down the Southern Border is one of those, and it's only a little less important than starting a war somewhere. If he thinks he can get away with doing it, he might just do it. If he thinks it might work to get his idiotic wall funded, he WILL do it, I guarantee.

He may still be thinking about 2020, but I suspect he won't be running then. I think he's tired and frustrated and will bail at the end of this term. I could be wrong, but I'll bet I'm not.

[Politicub]

62. The perception of a strong economy is all he has, and yet

I don't think anything can cleave away his base. It only take a stupid Facebook meme for them to share to strengthen their embrace of Trump.

There would be a lot of suffering from closure of the borders -- maybe civil unrest, depending on the length of the shutdown and the price increases of staples.

And, the economic effects will be compounded should an agreement not be reached on the debt ceiling. Billions will be cut from social services that the most needy need to live.

I forget the name of NAFTA's replacement. I would imagine we agreed to keeping our borders open to certain products. Not that agreements from the U.S. mean much in the age of Trump.

[TexasBushwhacker]

65. I predict he will "revise" his policy quickly

Can you imagine what would happen if we quit import just PRODUCE from south of the border? Either he's going to have multiple exceptions to his "closure" or he'll wait a few days and his minions will forget about it.

[Politicub]

66. Yep - like his position on healthcare

He backtracked quickly on a GOP plan to replace the ACA.

[MineralMan]

71. I think the new NAFTA is called TRUMPT-YA

[Dave Starsky]

82. All consequences of this insanely stupid act...

Will be laid squarely at the feet of the Democrats, who are "soft" on immigration and won't fund his glorious Wall to try to stop it.

The American news media will flog this meme until even you and I
start to believe it.

[SammyWinstonJack]

85. EXACTLY. tRUMP IS saying it's up to Congress to keep the border

open. Setting the stage to place the blame on the Dems. He's evil.

[watoos]

21. Shutting down the border shouldn't even be discussed,

IMO, it's just a ridiculous effort to once again change the narrative.

This idea doesn't deserve debate, for crying out loud auto manufacturers would shut down within a week because they get so many parts from Mexico.

[EveHammond13]

23. trump is addicted to trolling. follow-through only if it achieves his sadopopulism goals

[MineralMan]

26. It's not just being discussed. It's being seriously considered

by the Trump White House. If you think Donald Trump is joking about it, you're wrong. He'll do it, even if it is just out of spite. That's how he operates. Right now, he's using it as a threat to try to get some movement on his moronic wall. That's not going to work.

Since his threat won't work, watch for him to say, "I'll show them!" and just do it. Not only does he not care; he does not have any concept of the impact it will cause. Trump is not a rational person in any way. He operates on sheer emotion.

[watoos]

40. Not going to happen,

Trump has succeeded in keeping the narrative on the Southern border though.

Trump is not stupid, he is mentally ill.

[Dave Starsky]

83. Trump is stupid AND mentally ill.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

[EveHammond13]

22. I would love to see John Cornyn holding the bag as Texas economy gets crushed

also smart-ass bully Rep. Dan Crenshaw

although it's not fair to all the innocent, good people who will suffer.

[shanny]

36. amen to that. all of it. nt

[yaesu]

24. I don't think he will do it, he keeps pushing the boundaries further & further into bat chit crazy

territory & I'm thinking this will be a bridge too far. If he does do it it would escalate the coming crash & also divide the fascist party even more.

[avebury]

25. The hard core Trump base are totally beyond help.

If we want to ensure that the Democrats gain everyone else, then Trump's scorched earth policy may be what it takes to have the majority of people in this country rise up and throw the Trump crime family and Rethugs out. Why suffer in dribbles and drabs, just rip that band aid off and have it get so painful that the Rethugs will never have a chance to talk their way out of it. Perhaps then the Republican Party will shrink to a size that we can just flush them down the drain.

[MineralMan]

27. Yes. His 3?% base doesn't care or understand any more than Trump does.

I don't care about those voters. It's the others who voted for Trump who can be shifted.

That's why I'm torn about this. Even though I know it will be a disaster if it lasts very long, Trump's regime is a much worse disaster over the long haul.

[FakeNoose]

30. He's provoking another argument - that's all he wants

One unceasing controversy after another. I don't believe he really would shut down the border because it would be monumentally stupid and short-sighted. I'm sure his advisers have all told him that too.

But we're rewarding him by allowing ourselves to be provoked, which was all he wanted anyway. Next week it's going to be something else, while the ChumpHumpers all stand there and cheer for him. If we just started ignoring him and disbelieving his shit, maybe he really would get in a plane and fly away forever.

[watoos]

60. He is keeping the narrative on the Southern border,

he doesn't want the narrative to be on the Mueller report. I'm sure his lawyers have already seen it and it must be bad.

[BamaRefugee]

31. Unless he causes mass chaos THE NIGHT BEFORE 2020 elections, no one in his base will remember....

[Sancho]

32. There is nothing MF45 can do to piss off his flock...

the more outrageous, the more they rationalize.

[Dave Starsky]

80. His cultists will never, ever leave him.

Trump could promise to rape their wives and daughters, and they would leave the front door open and have a bucket of KFC waiting on the nightstand for him.

[shanny]

34. I agree.

It would deprive tRump of his hostage-taking abilities...by shooting them. I think the backlash would be immediate and horrendous. Unfortunately, the fallout would not be confined to the perpetrator.

[lutherj]

35. I don't know much about it, but it seems closing the border would be in violation of NAFTA,

which would leave the US vulnerable to all kinds of lawsuits over lost profits. Mexico is our 3rd largest trading partner. It’s easy to imagine that the loss of all that trade could pitch us into a major recession. If it were to happen in tandem with a no-deal Brexit the whole global economy could go under. It’s a pretty big price to pay, and there’s no point in wishing for it since Trump will do what he wants regardless. But if he does close the border he’s toast. It’ll be like the government shutdown, only much worse.

[oldsoftie]

37. Disrupting the economy wont piss off his tiny "base", they'll just blame the Dems.

[MineralMan]

39. His tiny base isn't actually enough to re-elect him

It's the Trump voters who voted for him for other reasons I'm interested in. They can be influenced.

[GemDigger]

48. I just had a long postponed conversation with my cousin the church going Catholic.

A long conversation/argument made short: She votes for the unborn baby. She doesn't like trump. She will vote for the party for the babies. She will vote for trump again if she has to. She does not understand that it is country before party. She does not pay attention to politics. Her response to the babies in cages was "I pray for them every day and it breaks my heart". I asked her if she did her taxes yet and she gave me a song and dance about knowing it would add to her paycheck but she refused to tell me if it cost her more in the long run.

I don't think there is any way to get through to those people who vote for 1 reason only.

[oldsoftie]

55. You're right. 1-note voters are the toughest to reach.

[oldsoftie]

56. And he doesnt realize that. He keeps playing to that base because he loves their adulation.

[louis-t]

38. I agree with your assessment.

These nutcases have to be shown what kind of damage republicans can do with their stupid ideology. Some will never see it, but a lot will.

[Freelancer]

41. I've had the same thought.

I'm leaning toward the conclusion that the whole DT "thang" has gone too far for any disaster of his own making to damage him -- at least in his followers' eyes. The people who are stuck to him like glue are converting adversity into ratification of faith. He's a religion of sorts now. I think we both agree regarding the kind of mind cancer that can foster. Any failures as a result of him will be twisted into somehow being the fault of the resistance to him.

[Sarcasm –>] "Ooh, if only the Democrats would just stop being such traitors and bow before our lord! If they would only accept his 'T' upon their foreheads, then all would be well. Jesus would be seen walking the links at Augusta and Satan would be his caddie for all eternity. Ah, the glory of it all!" [<– Sarcasm]

[Martin Eden]

42. My wish for Trump ...

When he's tweeting on his golden toilet he accidentally drops his phone into the bowl of excrement that came out his other end. Then he gets up to retrieve it and trips over his trousers, hits his head on the rim, and drowns in his own shit.

The rest of us have been drowning in his shit for 3 years now, and the above karma is way past due.

[CloudWatcher]

43. Wall Street

My bet has always been that his insane antics would spook Wall Street and then the big money folks would flip and the GOP would trip over themselves in the rush to impeach him.

I still think it'll happen before the 2020 election. But it's appalling how the GOP has turned into the party of enablers.

[Oneironaut]

44. Imo, it will not drive Trump voters away from Trump.

Most of them already believe the fake border crisis is the Democrats’ fault, so they will just blame the Democrats.

[MineralMan]

45. Not all people who voted for Trump are part of his nutcase base.

Some have already bailed out. Others will follow. He has a solid 30-35% who will vote for him, regardless of anything. That leaves 65-70% who won't vote that way, necessarily. We will get some of those voters, depending on who our nominee is. We will need them, too.

[Oneironaut]

46. Good point. I have to wonder what the line is for them, though,

if Trump hasn’t crossed it already? I would say it probably has to be something that personally affects them.

[MineralMan]

47. I don't know the answer to that question.

If I did, I'd be making more money than I am.

[oldsoftie]

58. I know the "line" for 1 of my friends.

He assumed that trump was just like every politician; blustering during the campaign but calming down and becoming a "President" afterwards. But the continued childish behavior has turned him off & McCains death was the last straw. He says he wont vote for him again. But he also says he probably wont vote for the Democrat either. He says "They dont have any Sam Nunns or Zell Millers over there anymore."
But its still a vote that wont (maybe) be cast for Trump. I'd bet there are many more like him out there.

[matt819]

49. I'm all for it

It is likely to result in chaos, for daily traffic and tourism as well as for large scale trade. Don't care.

People need to see the damage this move will cause.

On the down side, the "Media" will not cover it properly, and bothsidesism will prevail, and Dems will be blamed, and that is what Fox viewers will believe. Don't care. Let chaos prevail.

Same with cutting off aid to those "three Mexican countries." Foreign aid has always been an issue - always - and it will always be. But cutting it off rather than coming up with nuanced and helpful solutions will cause far more damage. So, cut off the aid, and watch the problem grow. And then try to cover up republican responsiblility.

[pdsimdars]

51. We need "smart" disruption, like sanctions, they shouldn't harm the public but those who caused it.

[vlyons]

52. Think again

Do you really want to hurt people, whose livlihood depends on trade with Mexico and Central America to achieve your political desires? That's what ReThuglicans do. They hurt people to achieve their political agenda. I'm better than that, and I'll bet you are too. No amount of political success is worth hurting people.

Think about it.

[Pepsidog]

53. I kinda agree with you

[Historic NY]

54. With that an a long shore strike it will kill commerce..

Remember how that strike crippled getting goods from the west to the east. Just the goods that come to supply the auto industry, could really dent the economy.

[salin]

63. Yes. Here is a report that says all US auto plant would shut down in one week.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/02/business/border-closing-us-auto-industry-shutdown/index.html

[rwsanders]

57. Totoaba bladders exit Mexico on their way to China through the US, and some are used in California..

There are bigger issues, but it might give the vaquita some breathing room if the market was gone.

[ehrnst]

59. "Chaos" usually hurts the most vulnerable the the worst.

Those who can sit and watch from a distance can think that it's a good thing, but that's a very privileged place.

"Burn it all down" usually is the refrain only of those who historically suffer the least when order devolves.

White straight adult men. Everybody else understands who will really pay the price during chaos.

This isn't a boil that needs to be irritated and brought to a head. It's people - families, children. It's small business owners on both sides of the border who rely on people crossing every day for commerce.

[Demobrat]

64. I feel you

I don't want him to close it. Too many people would get hurt.
But there is a small, mean part of me that would love to see if any of the blowback got on Trump if he did. Unfortunately, I don't think it would.

[JHB]

67. I get what you're saying and feeling, but it's staring down Heighten the Contradictions Highway

A very slippery road that should be driven with snow tires and 4-wheel drive. And even then, everyone else on the road can cause a wreck.

[gldstwmn]

68. I'm not sure how many more hits our

wonderful economy can withstand. He might go ahead and do it to take the focus off the Mueller Report once it becomes available or leaks, whichever comes first. As it is he's already done a 180 on healthcare today unless he changes his mind again before the 5 o'clock news.

[northoftheborder]

72. I cannot hope for this border shutdown to happen.

It would be a major disaster in many many ways for many people, and many companies and industries. It is INSANE for the president to even consider doing such a thing.

[lunatica]

73. This is a dumb wish

Trump’s base would love it if only to see us suffer. They’d just hole up with their guns and their meth. I hear it staves off hunger.

[MineralMan]

74. As I said, I'm torn between two outcomes.

I did not say I wished it would happen. I pointed out the consequences of both possibilities. Did you read my post?

The only thing I wished for was for Trump to leave and never come back.

[lunatica]

79. Yes I did read your post

And It’s a dumb idea if that makes it more correct for you.

[Leith]

75. I think I can settle this conundrum

I have felt the same way. The question of what will rid us of the political Tasmanian Devil doesn't seem to have an answer. We don't want the innocent to be dragged down with the nihilists. We don't even want those who hate us to go down even when it's what they want.

But my better nature steps forward and says
"Don't fall over into the Sarandon-esque side."

[MineralMan]

87. That question does have an answer.

In November of 2020, we elect a new, Democratic President, a Democratic majority in the Senate, increase our majority in the House, and elect Democrats to every possible state legislative seat.

That is the answer.

Let's do that!

[Leith]

89. I can go for that

Let's make super majorities.

[Yavin4]

76. Trump is a cult leader

Nothing he does will turn off his followers.

[RandySF]

78. It would be catastrophic in California

[Vinca]

81. I think he should shut it down completely. The only thing that is going to wake the GOP up is a

massive, catastrophic, ECONOMIC event. This would be devastating, I and I doubt it would last beyond a day, but they've got to see what a total lunatic is in the White House. I'd hate the catastrophic event to be Don launching a nuclear weapon and that wouldn't surprise me either.

[MineralMan]

88. I do not want to wake up the GOP. I want to put them to sleep.