Impeachment stops Presidential pardons

[SHRED]

Last edited Tue Apr 23, 2019, 01:04 PM - Edit history (1)

Something to keep in mind.

Just mentioned on the Thom Hartmann Show.




I'd start them and since the Senate is pointless, just drag out the hearings. Pull a McConnell.
If a Dem wins the Presidency drag out impeachment through the lame duck session from Nov-Jan so he can't pardon.


ARTICLE II, SECTION 2, CLAUSE 1

"...and he shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment."

...and he shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.

https://constitutioncenter.org/interactive-constitution/articles/article-ii

[Wounded Bear]

1. Really? That's a new one for me.

Would love to hear a source for that.

[Ohiogal]

2. Ford pardoned Nixon, didn't he?

Well, in all honesty, Nixon resigned first.

[davekriss]

5. Correct

Nixon resigned before he was impeached. So he was still pardonable.

[TwilightZone]

3. I think that's a misinterpretation.

"In the United States, the pardon power for offences against the United States is granted to the President of the United States under Article II, Section 2 of the United States Constitution which states that the President "shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardon

That would seem to indicate that a president can't issue pardons related to impeachment, not while under impeachment. A president under impeachment is still the president until removal from office.

[PoliticAverse]

8. That's correct. A few people seem to think that a President under investigation...

for possible impeachment can't pardon anyone but that is an interpretation of that clause not supported by reality.

The clause means a President can't stop/cancel anyone's impeachment by issuing a pardon for the impeachment. That is to say impeachment isn't pardonable.

[PoliticAverse]

4. No, it doesn't. n/t

[MineralMan]

6. I think you may have misunderstood that section of the Constitution.

[sarisataka]

7. How?

By custom or law?

[Codeine]

9. It doesn't work that way. nt

[kentuck]

11. Is that true?

interesting...

[Codeine]

14. It's not. nt

[uponit7771]

12. *** THIS IS TRUE, BUT ONLY OF TRUMP HIMSELF *** (link)

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=12041065

[Gothmog]

16. That provision only means that trump can not stop himself from being removed

trump can still try to pardon himself (the law is not settled here) and can pardon his co-defendants. A pardon does not stop the Senate from removing trump from office but I still do not see 20 GOP senators voting to convict and remove trump

I fully expect trump to either to try to either pardon himself or to resign just before his term is up and have Pence pardon him

[TwilightZone]

17. No, it doesn't.

It only applies to cases of impeachment. He could still pardon himself for crimes not related to impeachment, even while under impeachment.

[uponit7771]

19. It says "pardons cannot apply to cases of impeachment" of course anything outside of that he can...

... impeach what he wants.

[Gothmog]

13. Where is this in the Constitution?

[Codeine]

15. The part somebody misread. nt

[SHRED]

20. Here

ARTICLE II, SECTION 2, CLAUSE 1

"...and he shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment."

[Gothmog]

22. That provision only means that trump can not stop himself from being removed

trump can pardon himself or try to pardon himself and all of his minions even during the impeachment trial. I do not believe that we will get 20 GOP senators to vote for removal and so I think that impeachment is a waste of time and effort.

If trump loses, I suspect that he will both try to pardon himself (this is probably not enforceable) and resign in time for Pence to pardon him.

[onenote]

18. Says who? Not the Constitution.

At least not if the claim is that it would stop Trump from pardoning others.

[in2herbs]

21. My reading of this means that the Pres. can't pardon someone being impeached. If true, we should

begin impeachment proceedings against Barr, Kirsten ___ (former DHS Sec), and any other member of Trump's cabinet.

Remember when the Repubs in Congress threatened to impeach Sec of Treasury (??) and she resigned instead?

[honest.abe]

28. I suspect you are correct but it would be nice to have an expert confirm.

That clause seems to be open to various interpretations.

[StarfishSaver]

38. I'm sure we can agree that James Madison is an expert

He wrote in the Federalist Papers:

"A President of the Union, on the other hand, though he may even pardon treason, when prosecuted in the ordinary course of law, could shelter no offender, in any degree, from the effects of impeachment and conviction." http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/fed69.asp

Clearly the plain meaning, as well as the intent, of this clause is that presidents cannot use the pardon to shield anyone from impeachent. Nowhere do the Federalist Papers or any other source suggest that the framers' intended this clause to make impeachment have any affect on a president's power to pardon federal crimes.

[StarfishSaver]

23. No, it doesn't!

This clause simply means the president's pardon power doesn't extend to preventing impeachments.

FYI, Bill Clinton was impeached and continued pardoning people until his last hours in office

Please don't assume everything you hear is true.

[Trumpocalypse]

35. You got it right

Sad so many are getting it wrong.

[H2O Man]

24. That is an unexplored section

of the Constitution, as far as constitutional law goes. Hence, one can not say for sure one way or the other, until federal courts rule on potential cases. One suspects the current USSC would interpret it in a restrictive manner.

[StarfishSaver]

25. It's not "unexplored"

First, the plain language of the Constitution makes clear this applies only to the power of the president to use a pardon to stop an impeachment. It does not mean an impeached president can't pardon anyone

Second, there's firm precedent. Bill Clinton pardoned dozens of people after he was impeached, including more than. 30 people during the time between his impeachment and acquittal in the Senate.

Any attempt to get an alternative judicial reading would result in being laughed out of court by all of the justices.

This isn't even a close question and the argument about it is really a waste of time.

[H2O Man]

26. What you are saying

is true -- a president that has been impeached but not convicted obviously can pardon people. But I think you missed the point of the OP -- which is in cases related to the said impeachment, a president can not pardon, as it might be a form of obstruction. More, you definitely missed my point, which was about constitutional law. No such case has ever been attempted in federal courts. But, again, you are 100% correct on the issue you are focused on.

[StarfishSaver]

27. That's not true

The president can pardon anyone anytime, even if they are involved in or connected to the matters related to impeachment. This provision simply means his pardon can't be used to protect anyone from impeachment.

[H2O Man]

29. You are entitled

to your belief on this. However, it is extremely easy to expose the flaw in it. Presidents do have great power .....unless they take an action rooted in corrupt intent. And, again, in order to make a claim such as you have and be taken seriously, it would require at the very least a limited understanding of what constitutional law is.

Have a good day.

[StarfishSaver]

32. I'm a constitutional lawyer and former congressional counsel

I know this topic well.

I'm trying to provide some information (and counter misinformation) based on my experience and expertise and don't appreciate being insulted or belittled. This is one of the reasons I've been reluctant to post here.

[ismnotwasm]

33. You might try referencing the part of the constitution you are referring to

I know nothing about constitutional law, but I can certainly read. Having referenced information helps with conversations sometimes.

[StarfishSaver]

34. Wow

Now I remember why I never wanted to post here.

[ismnotwasm]

37. I'm not trying to be an ass

You sound like you are an expert in an area I am not. I really enjoy learning

[StarfishSaver]

39. I think I misinterpreted your post

My apologies.

[ismnotwasm]

40. I generally stay out of this particular argument

And I meant what I said, I do not understand constitutional law, especially when it comes to dicey areas. I am willing to learn. No need to apologize

[Bernardo de La Paz]

30. Woosh. Constitution referring to pardons FOR impeachment, NOT WHILE being impeached

In English, when a clause is next to something that is usually what it refers to. If it does not, then it will have some indicator back to the actual thing.

In this case, what is written is "Offenses against the US, except in Case of Impeachment". Offenses, except those offenses that were contested and convicted in Impeachment proceedings.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

31. Actually, it means Pence can't pardon tRump if he is impeached. Does NOT stop Presidential pardons.

And only stop Pence from pardoning tRump on the specific crimes and misdemeanors actually referred to the House by Committee.

[Trumpocalypse]

36. No See post 23

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100212040997#post35