Different perspective on D-Day

[zipplewrath]

I went to Normandy years ago to visit the beaches. We started in the American Cemetery with the alabaster crosses and manicured law. Seeing the rows of perfectly aligned markers was both poignant and a bit sad too. From there we went to get to the beach. We walked Omaha beach which was strangely ironic. There were people picnicking and throwing frisbees on a beautiful sunny day. And why not, it was a beautiful day. But of course I'm looking at it through the eyes in my mind of someone charging up the beach past carnage and death. I can hear in my mind the explosions and bullets flying by.

We then advanced up the beach towards the gun emplacements that are still there. What it must have taken to charge those bunkers, to attack a well protected position with little more than guns and grenades. I walked up to the back of one. The door was blackened as if it had been hit with a flame thrower. I went in and looked out towards the ocean.

That's when my perspective suddenly switched. I wasn't looking at it through the eyes of the allies charging up the beach. I suddenly was viewing it with the eyes of the soldier that looked out at the worlds largest armada every formed and knowing it was coming for them. I looked through the eyes of a soldier that saw 150,000 people coming forward towards him. I'm sure they called for help. I know that none really came. I sure they shot back, and they must have been horrified that the allies still came. You could see the evidence of the shells that hit nearby leaving large craters. Everyone must have shook their bunker and hurt their ears.

And I also realized that many if not most of these soldiers weren't "Germans". They were conscripts from all manner of countries, mostly eastern European. They may not even have spoken German. They assuredly never "signed up" for this. And yet here the allies came, literally gunning for them. And the allies succeeded. They died that day. They were trapped in those bunkers in many ways with no where to go.

And since that day it's hard for me to think of that invasion as just the "good guys" versus the "bad guys". It was mostly alot of victims all stuck in a day that would play out with alot of them would never live to see the end.

I appreciate the accomplishments that day, the heroism, the bravery, and the dedication. And if there are any "thoughts and prayers" to be offered, it is that someday we will learn never to do these things again.

[fierywoman]

1. Thank you for sharing this perspective.

[Trumpocalypse]

2. Bullsh*t

It was the good guys vs the bad guys. It was liberating a continent from tyranny. This post reminds of Trump saying there were good people on both sides. On your next trip to Europe maybe you should visit Auschwitz and the let us know if it wasn't the good guys vs the bad guys.

[True Blue American]

3. On that I agree!

World of difference to imagine 40 years later than to think of the blood and guts spilled that day.

I spent years with a husband, great Father, loving husband but I learned early on to never touch him while sleeping. He came straight up ready to fight.

He was on Omaha Beach, watched his buddies die, many buried there! Wounded.

Any damn fool that thinks war is filled with glory needs to remember ,it was bloody,dying, cold mud and fear!

[Tipperary]

14. 40 years later. What?

That war was much longer ago than 40 years.

[True Blue American]

77. You might want to read what the top poster said.

Last edited Fri Jun 7, 2019, 01:10 PM - Edit history (1)

He visited Normandy years later

[Codeine]

40. Husband?

How old are you?

[obamanut2012]

61. 1944 was much longer ago than 40 years, and your husband?!

How old are you?

[True Blue American]

4. I have pictures

Taken with a Brownie camera if he would like to see them and a husband who died much too soon from the chemicals they breathed.

[Tipperary]

17. Why are you talking about 40 years?

What war are you referencing?

[True Blue American]

19. Omaha Beach

June 5th, 1944!

[Tipperary]

20. That was not 40 years ago.

I must be missing something.

Also, it was the 6th, not the 5th.

[True Blue American]

25. I never said

40 years ago. But you are right, it was June 6th. Quite frankly I have been upset all day hearing

Trump dishonor that place where so many of my Husbands bodies are buried.

Are you through with me yet?

[Tipperary]

31. Yes you did. Read the thread.

“So many of my husbands bodies?” Huh?

How many husbands and which one had time to take pics with his Brownie?

It was 75 years ago. Sorry, but your posts make no sense.

[emmaverybo]

132. Oh come on, come on. You know she either meant her husband's buddies or "our husbands'"and

she’d be in her nineties most likely. My mother died two and a half years ago at 90. My dad was in the army, a non-combat vet, in 1944. He was four years older.
And yeah, my mum was still on the computer reading daily, tho she had some difficulty emailing and with short term memory.
Gawd, DUers, some humanity. Don’t have to grill everyone. I mean even if you think a personal truth is an off-chance, you should proceed carefully.

[True Blue American]

157. No, I am not in my nineties.

My Husband would have been 95 this year.. i am younger, but does everyone think all people lose their abilities? People are living longer, much more active.

I spend 3 mornings a week exercising at the Y Pool at 6:30 AM. Can any of you men match that?

I see overweight, unhealthy people all around me in their teens on up. Hanging over electric Grocery carts.

[emmaverybo]

163. Tried old flower, I really did. nt

[True Blue American]

164. What is that supposed to mean?

[emmaverybo]

173. Your dates, age ARE confusing. Old flower is an Irishism. Just kidding, that. Still, unless you

were a child-bride...

[cwydro]

35. You did post that it was forty years ago.

That confused me too.

[obamanut2012]

62. Yes you did, you said 40 years

[Codeine]

41. Chemicals? nt

[cwydro]

60. That confused me too.

Also the picture taking.

[True Blue American]

78. That is what the Surgeon Said.

He was in that war, too. They were exposed to chemicals in WW 2.

As to whether any of you believe me, all I can say is TS I could care less.

I certainly have no reason to lie.

[True Blue American]

88. And you did not bother to read the top post

As to why I mentioned 40 years. The top post was about a person who visited Normandy many years later, thus mt 40 year post.

So you do not believe me, that does not mean anything to me.

[Codeine]

90. That part I do believe.

I don’t think you expressed yourself clearly given the fact that literally everyone misunderstood you, but that’s a reasonable enough explanation and I withdraw my comment.

[emmaverybo]

136. No you don't. Thank you for your post and your husband for his service. nt

[shanny]

5. Bullsh*t.

At that level--the front lines--it mostly IS a bunch of conscriptees who have no other choice. Twas ever thus, for those in the trenches.

[Trumpocalypse]

7. Then they should have surrendered

and not tried to kill heroes who were liberating a continent from tyranny. Maybe you should read more about the war in France. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oradour-sur-Glane_massacre

[shanny]

8. Non sequitur.

[Trumpocalypse]

9. No it's not. nt

[shanny]

11. Is too!

[Trumpocalypse]

12. Not nt

[True Blue American]

27. You do understand

Those guys had a choice, kill or be killed!

[Trumpocalypse]

34. Yes they had a choice

And they chose to volunteer: https://militaryhistorynow.com/2014/06/02/germanys-foreign-volunteers-helped-man-the-atlantic-wall/

[True Blue American]

92. Yes,it is quite clear you have no comprehension

Of what Germany was like in the late 30’s, early 40’s,. Of course they could have refused. They would have been shot.

I had 2 people tell me yesterday that the Schools do not even teach WW 2 in School any more. Both had children in School. I am beginning to think you guys are products of those Schools since you do not comprehend how different the world was then compared to today.

The top post was a fantasy of how those fighting back then thought.

[Trumpocalypse]

97. Cowardice is not an excuse

Many of the war criminals at Nuremberg tried to use that defense. It’s Bs.

In regard to the Nazis, you and Trump may think their were good people on both sides. They weren’t.

[True Blue American]

98. I see you have faced

That choice. What a hero you are in the face of dying if you fought back!

[Trumpocalypse]

100. And your choice

is to make excuses for people who tried to enslave the world.

[True Blue American]

159. I am not

Making excuses. You simply condemn a whole race. I am sure there were many Germans scared to death, others just mean, but war is hell for anyone.

The Japanese committed atrocities in that war. I know many who survived them. Most are gone now, but they never forgot.

[Codeine]

107. Of course schools teach WW2.

I have two children (one in grade school, one in high school) and they have both learned about the Second World War. I’m sure there are a handful of schools who have skipped it, but let’s not overstate the matter.

[True Blue American]

161. Must be rare then. Because I have had numerous

People tell me the same thing, including Teacher friends.

Most young people have little interest in the past, though.

[DFW]

165. Ignorance is comfortable wall to hide behind, and there is a lot of unfortunate latent hate here

Here in western Germany, the story of World War II was always prominent in children's education. My daughters went to the Anne Frank Elementary School, a name I would wager is not to be found in most of the USA. The "never again" sentiment was always strong in the post-war generations of Germans, of which my wife is a member. The Socialists of East Germany hid behind the myth that their part of Germany was completely free of Nazis, and therefore needed no local vigilance against neo-Nazis, all of whom they claimed were in the West. Most of the support of far right politicians these days is--surprise!--in the east, where the suppressed rightists were never taught they they were wrong (they didn't exist, after all). Even my father-in-law, who was drafted off his farm at age 17 and sent to Stalingrad basically as cannon fodder, wished for all his grandchildren to be girls so they would not be required to serve in the military. He came back at age 18 with a leg blown off by a Soviet artillery shell. As a side note, my wife's grandfather used to listen to British radio, an offense that carried the death penalty during the war. His neighbor, who was an enthusiastic Nazi, told him he knew what was going on, but wouldn't denounce him due to their being neighbors for so many years. After the war, when it was the fervent Nazis that were being rounded up, the neighbor again approached my wife's grandfather, and asked that he not denounce him, since he had spared his life by not turning him in for listening to British radio. Since my wife's grandfather owed him his life, he agreed. Was he suddenly evil?

On a broad basis, especially from the victor's point of view, it's clear who was good and who was bad. Sometimes, especially on an individual basis, it is not. A good friend of mine who lives near Limoges in France, had an "oncle Johann" living on a nearby farm for most of his life. He was nobody's uncle. He was a Wehrmacht soldier who deserted during the Nazi occupation of France. The French farmers hid him until the end of the war, and he stayed on near Limoges for the rest of his life. No one knows what he did before he deserted. Was he evil? His commanding officers certainly would have thought so if they had ever found out that he was alive. The people of Limoges obviously thought differently.

[True Blue American]

168. Part of the

Resistance most do not understand. There was much of that during the war. Hidden because they knew they would die if found out.

Thanks for bringing that viewpoint to the discussion.

My Grandparents immigrated from Germany and they were despised during the wars even though their own Sons were fighting for the US. Prosperous Farmers who came here with nothing.

[Kurt V.]

38. +1

[Blue_true]

46. Wars are events that national leaders bring about.

The people that face the actual bullets on both sides vary in their level of dedication to what they are fighting for. On the leader level, it certainly was good versus evil. But for an individual soldier, the overarching reasons for the war may not be as clear. When the allies invaded via the French beaches, Hitler had wasted most of his hardest troops in Africa and the eastern front. Yes, there were hard, evil German troops in those bunkers on D-Day, but there were also teenagers constripted into a war that terrified them and which they likely felt in their hearts was lost, both types of German soldier died that day, along with American and other allied soldiers.

[Trumpocalypse]

48. More BS

The German people enabled Hitler and cheered his victories. They were not innocent, including teenagers who were fanatical members of the Hitler Youth.

The men from America, England, Canada and many other countries that day were fighting to free Europe from tyranny. There were not good people on both sides.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oradour-sur-Glane_massacre

https://militaryhistorynow.com/2014/06/02/germanys-foreign-volunteers-helped-man-the-atlantic-wall/

[sarisataka]

50. I wonder what you would think

If you met my friend's father? He was a member of the Hitler Youth and was an anti-aircraft gunner at the end of the war.

[Trumpocalypse]

52. I would think that he was a war criminal

who enabled some of the worst crimes against humanity.

[cwydro]

55. Funny. I was in the Air Force years ago.

My boss was Master Sergeant Werner Kaestel.

He had been in the Hitler Youth as a boy. Things aren’t as black and white as you seem to think.

[Trumpocalypse]

73. Depends

Did he denounce Hitler and the Nazis?

Some of the posts in this thread sound a lot like Trump saying there are good people on both sides. There are not.

[sarisataka]

59. How do you think he should be punished for his crimes?

It began when he was 10 in 1942. A couple gentlemen from the Geheime Staatspolizei came to his village and gave his parents, and others, the chance to remedy their oversight of failing to enroll their children in the German Young People organization. In 1945 he was old enough to be moved into the formal Hitler-Jungend.

His time in the Hitler youth was rather short as it was March of '45 that soldiers from the Wehrmacht came to the village and conscripted every male taller than 1.4 m. This included children as young as 8 to the oldest at 15. They were gathered around a truck in the center of the village and issued uniforms. He said he was lucky his uniform did not have bullet holes or blood stains. The group or about 30 boys were marched a week to near Nuremberg. On the way they were given "basic training" such as how to march, how to tell rank proper courtesy etc. They were not taught to shoot since they had no guns.

Arriving at their destination they were divided and assigned to sergeants to man AA guns. Their sergeant was missing his left arm from wounds on the Eastern Front.They were surprised that he did not teach them how to operate the gun. One boy asked how would they be able to shoot at bombers. The sergeant informed them they were not ever going to fire a shot because that would attract allied fighter-bombers. Instead they were to stay where they were assigned and wait for the Americans to arrive. Three days later the US 42nd ID was moving towards Nuremberg. Their sergeant had them tie a white bed sheet to the barrel and raise the gun to full elevation. About an hour later US troops arrived and he became a POW at the age of 14.

What would you do with this war criminal? Hang him or send him to Spandau with Hess?

[Trumpocalypse]

72. I hope he was.

[sarisataka]

75. He was lucky

To have become an American prisoner. Had he been captured by the Soviets he would have been sent to a gulag and the odds of ever returning alive would probably been less than 50-50. He does consider himself quite fortunate.


It is interesting how easy it is to convince one's self their cause is pure and actions taken in support of it are 100% morally justified, wouldn't you agree?

[Trumpocalypse]

79. I don't think the inmates at

auschwitz would agree.

[sarisataka]

86. On the contrary

I believe Jews, and other victims of the Nazi regime, would fully agree that someone who has the conviction that they are 100% correct and beyond questioning are willing to inflict merciless punishment on men, women and children for crimes real, imagined or simply convenient.
Indeed they were victims of the most horrific persecution who did not view them as individuals but simply a category.

[Trumpocalypse]

91. Then you are deluded.

Jews and the other victims would not absolve their persecutors of guilt just because they believed what they were doing was right.

[sarisataka]

102. If only I said anything

About absolution your post would have a point. I would not and do not absolve anyone who was directly involved in persecuting Jews and others.

I do see a difference between concentration camp guards and children who were conscripted and forced to the front.

[Trumpocalypse]

105. They were not forced

They were fanatical members of the Hitler youth. And none served at Normandy on D-Day.

[sarisataka]

110. If you say so

I guess the history books and US vets I have spoken to were all wrong about children, both boys and girls, who were conscripted into the Volksturm.

You are however wrong about who was at Normandy. On June 7 the 12th SS Panzer Division was sent into battle against the British and Canadians. Over half of the division was under the age of 18.

It is true that unit was comprised of volunteers who did have a reputation as fanatic Nazis and were responsible for several massacres of civilians and POWs.

[Trumpocalypse]

115. You need to read more

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_SS_Panzer_Division_Hitlerjugend

And just to repeat, there were good guys and bad guys on D-Day. The good guys were the allies trying to liberate Europe from a muderous tyranny. The bad guys were the Germans, regardless of their age, who were trying to kill the allies and preserve the oppression of Europe. That anyone would defend them and their actions is disgusting and puts them with Trump saying there are good people on both sides.

[sarisataka]

124. That link agrees

With what I posted about the 12th SS

I would like to know, given every German in uniform is a war criminal, what punishment should they have received? Most of the rank and file of the 12th SS were not punished for executing civilians as many of the SS were under 18 when they committed the atrocities.
Do you think death or imprisonment and for how long?

What about the 12 year old boy or the 14 year old girl who were conscripted to be Volksgrenadiers and given the option to place a mine on an allied tank or face the pistol of a Gestapo officer? How would you punish them?

[Trumpocalypse]

126. Not the point

Stop trying to change the subject and the only part of that link that agrees with your post is that the 12th SS committed War Crimes.

The point is there were good guys and bad guys on D-Day. The good guys were the allies and the bad guys were the Germans. There were not good people on both sides as you and Trump seems to think.

[sarisataka]

134. It is exactly the point

Wikipedia is not the be all, end all. Perhaps you need to read more. Here is a start, https://www.historynet.com/world-war-ii-12th-ss-hitlerjugend-panzer-division-fought-in-normandy.htm

I do not disagree one side was good and the other was bad. I maintain being on the bad side does not make one a war criminal.

You are the one who declared all German soldiers were war criminals. Have the moral fortitude to to support yourself and answer my questions how you would have punished the German examples I gave.

[Trumpocalypse]

143. No the point is there were good guys and bad guys on D-Day

You and Trump may think there were good people on both sides.

And the fact you are rejecting Wikipedia, shows that you are not interested in the truth.

[sarisataka]

146. OMG thank you

And the fact you are rejecting Wikipedia, shows that you are not interested in the truth.

Best laugh I have had in a while
I could provide a dozen sources on the German OOB of WW 2 and direct you to books and historical papers, but if you think wikipedia is the ultimate font of knowledge I don't think it would matter.

[Trumpocalypse]

147. Who cares

You want to build your whole argument on one unit. Which is still not the point.

There were good guys and bad guys on D-Day. The allies trying to free Europe from tyranny were the good guys. The Germans trying to stop them were the bad guys.

[sarisataka]

148. Obviously you care

If you fear more scholarly sources than wikipedia.

That one unit proves that youths were involved in the fighting at Normandy. The division's name was Hitler Youth for Dog's sake but you can't accept that the majority of the division was under age 18 which is historical fact. But this is indeed off of our point, although it does apply to the OP.

We already covered that there were good guys and bad guys. What I am trying to discover still is how you believe children fighting on the side of the bad guys should have been punished.

To summarize, you have stated everyone in uniform was supporting an evil regime. You deny that there were forced conscription and all of them fought willingly. By fighting to support the Nazis, they are war criminals.
So how should those war criminals, who happened to be teenagers and younger, have been punished?

[emmaverybo]

140. No, YOU need to read more. My creative writing professor was Jewish American, in WWII, and

he wrote a war-time memoir in which he talked about an American soldier forced to shoot a young German soldier his own age. The story’s theme lies in the American soldier’s recognition as he approaches his “enemy” that he is just, like himself, a kid, a human being.
It is perhaps strange to you that “enemy” combatants have even as elderly men met up and shed tears and hugs.
It is simply not true that all young German soldiers were responsible for the holocaust.

[True Blue American]

94. Those Germans who

Believed and followed Hitler were starving when Hitler managed to win. He promised them jobs
And prosperity. By the time many figured out what was happening they were too scared to protest. They knew their families would die, so would they.

Trump would like to become that same person and with Republican help it is working so far.

But the levee is getting cracks.

[emmaverybo]

142. An important fact that they were literally starving as were their families. nt

[True Blue American]

160. Keep in mind

Hitler blamed the Jews for owning the banks. It was their fault. That is how he fed the anger. Much the same way Trump is inflaming the anger of,” Illegals,” today. They are taking jobs, we are taking care of them, Etc.

[raccoon]

80. To paraphrase something you said,

The German people enabled Hitler and cheered his victories. They were not innocent, including teenagers who were fanatical members of the Hitler Youth.

Someone might someday say, "The American people enabled Trump and cheered him on. They were not innocent, including those who were fanatical members of the Democratic Party."

Lots of Germans hated Hitler, what could an average citizen do?

[Trumpocalypse]

81. BS

Other than his supporters at rallies, the American people are not cheering Trump on.

It's a false analogy.

[raccoon]

85. And you know, from old newsreels, that 100% of the Germans cheered Hitler?

Yeah, right.

[Trumpocalypse]

89. Most did

And many of that few that opposed him were turned into the Gestapo by their neighbors and friends who were being good loyal Germans.

When it comes to Nazis, you and Trump may think there were good people on both sides. But there weren't.

[True Blue American]

96. No, they didn't!

Many did not agree with Hitler. Why do you tink they had Resistance groups. Some even tried to kill him, almost succeeded.

[RobinA]

82. My Thoughts Exactly

I was recently at Bastogne and was interested to see that they dealt with German soldiers as people, not strange evil "others" who were something besides than human. It's very dangerous to regard the other side, no matter how heinous some of them may have behaved, as beings who are somehow very different from ourselves. Good versus evil? Nope, just people.

[True Blue American]

95. It is nice to read

That someone has an understanding of what reality was back then.

I have to be honest I was a child then, but one who watched her Dad go off to war at the train depot. Heavily censored VMails were all the information we had for 3 long years.

As we all know Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan Vets are going through the same thing. All of them started by old men. In the case of Iraq that was based on deliberate lies.

[emmaverybo]

144. And many vilified Vietnam vets when they returned and considered all war criminals. nt

[True Blue American]

156. I know

And that was despicable. So many of them still suffering today. Veterans make up a good part of the homeless today. After WW2 those men came home to a warm welcome. Of course they had to start new, but they were given Education plans, GI loans to but houses and the future looked good.

Today the future is not so bright for many. That may be pessimistic.

Trump caved on tariffs. I predicted he would. The promises Mexico gave are just hot air. Just another stunt by Trump and his gang.

[True Blue American]

93. They were drafted

In WW 2. They had no choice, but of course many enlisted because they felt it was their patriotic duty to fight for their Country. That also included women Volunteers.

You still had the selfish ,or cowards who would do anything to stay out. 4F was a very nasty name back then.

[HopeAgain]

103. So if that's your position

how were our soldiers in Iraq good guys? We should have never been there...

[Trumpocalypse]

106. True

We shouldn’t have been there.

But we weren’t committing genocide.

And thanks for the false analogy.

[HopeAgain]

108. Must be nice to have such a simplistic view

Were the young conscripts in France committing genocide? If so, were all the soldiers in Iraq therefore responsible for what happened at Abu Garib?

Nobody is saying that D-day shouldn't have happened, It had to happen and we did the right thing. But there is nothing wrong with having empathy for young men who are swept into a war on the wrong side, not even old enough to buy a drink in modern America.

[Trumpocalypse]

109. No it's the true view

German soldiers in France and across Europe helped round up Jews, Homosexuals and others the Nazis found undesirable to send them to concentration camps. In Poland and Eastern Europe they massacred Jews, Army officers and political leaders en mass. They were not innocents who were swept into war. They were willing participants.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wehrmacht#War_crimes

Unlike you and Trump when it comes to Nazis, I don’t believe there were good people on both sides because there weren’t.

[HopeAgain]

112. Since I was not an 18 year old raised in Germany after WWI

I am just not able to be as morally certain as to how every single person can be judged for choices they made. I leave the judging to God and try to see all humans with some empathy. I believe lack of empathy is how this country has become such a war-like state.

[Trumpocalypse]

113. The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil

is for good men to do nothing.

[HopeAgain]

117. Glad you are so certain

of what you would do in every situation, no matter how or where you come from. I have more humility than that.

[HopeAgain]

120. Whatever

If comparing me to Trump makes you feel good, than enjoy. Hopefully you are not always so pompous about things...

[Trumpocalypse]

121. It not pompous

to recognize that the Nazis were (and are) evil.

[HopeAgain]

122. Cold blooded murderers are evil

And I still believe it is inhumane to impose the death penalty. To somehow equate me with Trump is just fucking rude.

[Trumpocalypse]

123. Well you both defended Nazis

[HopeAgain]

125. Bullshit

I defended the OP, not Nazis. I'm sorry you can't distinguish between having empathy for someone and defending someone. There is a distinction whether you choose to recognize it or not.

[Trumpocalypse]

127. And the OP is full of lies

Are you defending the lies too.

[HopeAgain]

133. I'm defending empathy

I'm not condemning the invasion of France on D-Day, it was patently necessary. Lack of empathy, however leads to excesses and abuses.

For example, should we have fire bombed Dresden? Nuke not one, but two civilian populations? Morality is never completely binary, especially when we are talking about thousands of individual cases. I have no defense of Nazism, nor would I ever dream of such a thing. I can still feel sorry for a 17 year old facing a violent death because of the excesses and abuses of his leaders and his government. In any situation like that, more people go along with, rather than buck the system, and I can be grateful that I have never been faced with such a stark moral dilemma.

It's easy to have moral certainty with regards to choices of others when have no idea of what their experience was like.

[Trumpocalypse]

141. It is not empathy to make excuses for the Nazis

Especially with lies. And are you going to defend the lies in the OP?

[HopeAgain]

149. Since you are either not reading what I'm saying

or incapable of understanding the difference between empathizing and defending, I'm done here.

[emmaverybo]

145. V. Good and thoughtful post. And we used the atomic bomb on civilians in Hiroshima

and Nagasaki.
Moral certainty is easy from the easy chair while scrolling through Wikipedia.

[True Blue American]

169. Those 2 bombs saved millions

Of our Troops. A decision made by Truman after Hirohito vowed to fight to the last man!

Right or wrong? Who can say, but it ended that war.

[Codeine]

138. I would caution against characterizing

the statements made in the OP as being lies. Clearly they’re utterly and completely inaccurate, as wrong as a very wrong thing, but I think the poster is simply ill-informed. He heard some troops were from the East and didn’t speak German and extrapolated (incorrectly) from there.

As to his notion of there not being any good guys or bad guys at Normandy, well. . . again that’s not a lie, it’s just a stupid thing to say. I’m not willing to condemn every member of the Wehrmacht to status of war criminal, but they were very much The Bad Guys, full stop.

The truth of the Ostbattalions is that they were composed largely of rabid anti-Semites who were willing, enthusiastic volunteers to the cause of fighting for the Nazis. I would give the average German soldier in Normandy a pass before I would excuse the actions of Estonian or Ukrainian collaborationists taking up arms for Hitler.

As for the Tiger Legion? Well, blame the British for that. Mistreat someone brutally enough and long enough and they’ll happily curl up in your enemy’s lap. Luckily they seemed far less effective than Indian troops fighting for the Commonwealth.

[True Blue American]

170. The Op

Was a fantasy of what someone imagined happened years after the war was over.

[Codeine]

174. Yes, a "fantasy", as in "not based in reality."

I would just like the OP to admit he was wrong and that his characterization of there being a significant number of unwilling foreign conscripts defending the beaches and bocage of Normandy is not factual.

[True Blue American]

162. Thank you.

[Fresh_Start]

6. Why didn't the so called conscripts surrender

if they weren't willing participants?

[Aristus]

10. Many of the non-German foreign conscript units had a German NCO

assigned to supervise them. It was the German sergeants' job to shoot any conscript who talked about, or looked like like he was going to surrender.

If it helps, there are anecdotal stories about such unwilling conscript units overpowering and killing their German sergeants and then surrendering to the Allies.

[Trumpocalypse]

13. Here is an article about non-German conscripts

They were less than 20% of the total troops and most volunteered.

https://militaryhistorynow.com/2014/06/02/germanys-foreign-volunteers-helped-man-the-atlantic-wall/

[Tipperary]

16. Most of our soldiers in Vietnam were conscripts.

They did not surrender either.

[True Blue American]

21. That ignorance is amazing.

They were drafted as young men. They had no choice but to do as they were ordered.

Some of the posts in this thread make me wonder. The first post was from someone who visited Normandy, went on to imagine what it must have been like on that terrible.
Day. It was the beginning of the end of WW2.

[Tipperary]

24. I am still confused as to why you think it was 40 years ago.

And you think it was the 5th.

WTH?

[True Blue American]

28. I made a typo

Have no idea what you are talking about, but do know what I think of you.

Bye!

[Tipperary]

32. Either you were WAY younger than your "husbands" or you are very confused.

Anyone at D-day would be several years over 90. My uncle was there.

[obamanut2012]

63. You said 40 years

[Celerity]

76. here, you said 40 years, and you talked about an Omaha Beach vet husband

[RobinA]

84. Maybe When She

had this experience the war had happened 40 years ago???? In 1985 she knew not to touch her husband who had been at Omaha Beach when he was asleep . Sheesh, what's the big deal? The experience she describes is well known.

[Celerity]

87. no clue, but they did deny even saying it, I was only trying to show them what the other posters

were asking them about

[True Blue American]

158. You are making that up. Not once did I say 1985.

And my reference to 40 years had to do with the top post fantasizing about how those men felt when he visited years after the war.

Pretty clear to me you guys do not read or comprehend well. I simply used the 40 years, instead of much later.

[Trumpocalypse]

36. Just following orders?

That is the same excuse many war criminals used.

But you're right the ignorance is amazing. So I guess you agree with Trump that there are good people on both sides.

[Trumpocalypse]

47. Stop posting lies

They were not drafted. They were volunteers. https://militaryhistorynow.com/2014/06/02/germanys-foreign-volunteers-helped-man-the-atlantic-wall/

[unblock]

15. in the words of tommy lee jones, i don't care.

yes, war sucks for pretty much everyone involved.

yes, some portion of those soldiers were there partly if not entirely against their will.

but whatever moral dilemma they may have had, they generally resolved it by firing on and killing scores of americans and allies on that day before being killed anyway, or taken prisoner.

if there were a few who surrendered without firing a shot, good on them.

if there were a few who turned on the germans, good on them.

but the ones who shot at americans and allies, sorry, no sympathy from me.


and i am *certainly* not going to pretend that the vast majority of german soldiers didn't believe in what they were doing. that's complete nonsense.

[Tipperary]

26. Sooo, the vast majority of American troops believed in what they were doing, right?

Sure.

[unblock]

33. In wwii? Hell yeah

Different answer for Vietnam, but fighting against hitler? Are you serious?

[Tipperary]

51. If you read downthread, you'll see I was talking about Vietnam.

My bad for not making that clear in that post.

[catbyte]

18. War is hell. The Allies couldn't have politely knocked on the bunkers to let them pass into France.

The carnage on the beaches was unspeakable. Try the first 20 minutes of "Saving Private Ryan" for a slight taste of the horror that rained down on the Allied troops on those beaches. I'm sorry, but I just can't subscribe to your thinking. It's probably because my beloved dad was a WWII vet, albiet a Marine Raider in the Pacific, but he had cousins fighting the Nazis in North Africa, Italy, and France. How old are you? I'm over 60, so it might be a generational thing.

[True Blue American]

22. The Germans had actually

Gone on vacation. The weather was terrible but the Leaders knew if they did not act then they would have to wait a month.

They did everything they could think of to surprise the German.

[True Blue American]

23. I have a better suggestion.

Visit your local Air Force Museum. They have created videos showing actual footage.

We watched it at Wright Pat Museum.

Very few of my Sons In-laws even knew his Dad was there. He was asked if his Dad ever talked about it. His answer?

His Fathers answer!” If you were really in the fighting you wanted to forget it!”

[elleng]

29. War

[RoadMan]

30. I can imagine my grandpa

knocking out someone's teeth for talking crap like this. Not you in particular, just reacting to the sentiment.

Have sympathy for the Allied forces and commemorate our dead. No sympathy for Nazis.

This is one blazing example where either/or and not both/and are not justified.

No gray area, straight up good versus evil.

[cwydro]

37. Strange. I had uncles and grandparents in that war.

None of them held a grudge afterwards.

Vietnam was much more recent, but many vets have visited their former foes, broken bread and shaken hands with them.

McCain did so too.

[Codeine]

44. Because the Vietnamese weren't

embarking on a global war of conquest and ethnic annihilation?

[cwydro]

53. Both my parents lived in the UK during the war.

My mother’s brother fought and was at D-Day.

Dad was a kid in London during the Blitz.

None of them held grudges. Many of their friends in NC later were Germans who also lived in the US. One of their group was a Pole who was in Auschwitz as a child. My parents were part of an international group of friends.

I still have a picture of a handsome young man named Gunther who was a POW that my mom came to know as a teenager. He wasn’t a Nazi, just an 18 year old soldier. He and my mom were very close, and she and dad visited him years later in Munich.

I learned a lot from meeting and knowing all of those wonderful people. My parents taught me never to hate because of nationality or what any government said or did.

[cwydro]

54. Ha. No, that sounds more like us.

Doesn’t it?

[Duppers]

39. Soldiers were pawns of fascist dictators.

Still are.

"...many if not most of these soldiers weren't 'Germans'."

My father was in the second wave landing on D-Day. Not far inland he came upon a German-made jeep with dead German soldiers; they were wearing German uniforms. He stole that jeep, picked up other Americans, and drove to confront the Germans. Although he never spoke of it, he received a metal for his acts of bravery.

"Soldiers not German"?
If I were conscripted and forced to fight in those bunkers that day, I would think I would have had a choice. I would have turned my weapons against those forcing me to be there, the GERMANS. And I would have put my hands in to the air when facing the Allied Forces.

How could that not have occurred to any thinking person, especially when facing sure death, because what would they have had to lose?

[Trumpocalypse]

45. Most were German

Less then 20% were conscripts: https://militaryhistorynow.com/2014/06/02/germanys-foreign-volunteers-helped-man-the-atlantic-wall/

[True Blue American]

166. See how easy it is

To pretend you would have stood strong against certain death? You never had to make that choice, those men did, they followed orders or they would face instant death at the hands of those giving orders.

I would never pretend to know what I would do under other circumstances. None of us know.

But I do know survival is a human instinct.

[Trumpocalypse]

42. Translation

[Codeine]

43. The Ostbatallion and Tiger Legion troops

in Normandy were almost entirely volunteers, people who joined up because they hated the Soviets or - in the case of the Tiger Legion - the British.

And these troops, incidentally, represented less than 20% of the Axis forces in Normandy. By no means were most of them not German.

[Trumpocalypse]

49. Thank you

for posting facts.

[GulfCoast66]

56. I'm cutting the OP a little break.

Although I think the whole ‘good guy’ - ‘bad guy’ thing tends to rub the wrong way.

I recently heard a segment on NPR about the shocked reaction Chinese Journalism students have when studying in the US and learn about Tiananmen Square. They are shocked and then doubly shocked when they realized you really can’t be a true journalist in China. They never knew about it! And this is in the internet age! Someone close to me worked in China for over 6 months. Had a nice apartment and watched CNN international. Whenever a story came on about China it went off the air.

Most of those German soldiers had lived their whole life under Hitler. They thought they were on the righteous side.

But no matter how brainwashed or personally innocent they were, in a wartime scenario they were, indeed, the bad guys.

All of my ancestors in the civil war fought for the confederacy. Few had slaves. I assume most were decent men as far as neighbors and family were concerned. But in that war they were not the good guys. They fought for a horrible cause and I am glad they lost.

But I can feel empathy for both the young German soldiers and the confederate soldiers. They died young for shitty causes.

Now, when I stood on the cliffs of Omaha beach I had a different feeling. I felt huge admiration for the US soldiers who took it. Stripped of the vegetation now there, as in 1944, and given a bunker I could have held off 20 men with my bolt action 5 shot magazine deer rifle. I can’t imagine what courage it took to charge those cliffs facing MG42’s and cannon fire.

So yeah. Lots of young, innocent men died. And they had the bad luck to be born male and German in the 20’s and early 30’s. Glad they died not more of the men fighting them. Wish none of them had.

[misanthrope]

71. Confederate soldiers

I, too, have ancestors who served in the Confederate Army. I've seen their graves and most lived through the war. They were poor white folks from the fringe of the Gulf Coast range and the Alabama Wiregrass. I would be surprised if had enough money to own slaves.

I have no illusions about what they were defending. Their socio-economic system was rotten from the top down and easily identifiable to anyone who merely took the time to observe as much. It destroyed and dehumanized African Americans. It chewed up whites who belonged to the vast underclass.

It doesn't take a special knowledge to recognize the humanity of African Americans or to grasp the inequities and con game being run on poor whites by the landed gentry. They could have seen all of it for themselves had they wanted to. Others had in before and in their time. Many us here see through propaganda on a regular basis.

They might be my own predecessors but it's hard for me to summon pity for them. I've tried and seem to fall short.

[GulfCoast66]

152. I can't disagree with any of this. Except the ability to see thru the lies they were sold.

Even my Grandfather, who was not considered poor through a rural southern lens since he owned his land and did not share crop, had a 3rd grade education. My education in the classics and my fathers before me allowed us to break out of the rural southern mindset. I can’t see any mechanism where my grandfather could see thru what he had been sold.

Although to his credit racial epithets were not allowed in his home. Which was highly unusual at the time. When it was time to pick the crop all the kids had to work alongside the hired help till the work was done cause they weren’t better than any other man. And he hated preachers. Don’t get me wrong...he was racist in his own way, but tried his best to escape the world he lived in. But had built in limits.

I am forever grateful that my father rejected his upbringing and went to LSU for a degree in journalism. Paid for by the US Government!

Today there is no excuse.

But had my grandfather been born 60 years earlier he would have marched to war to defend a horrible cause and have been a bad guy.

[misanthrope]

153. Except there are plentiful examples throughout history

of those who broke the social bounds of their times. That includes myself and a lot of folks on this very discussion forum whose views and perspectives on American society and history definitely defy the cultural paradigms in which they were raised.

[GulfCoast66]

154. Of course. And my father and I included.

But dad had the advantage of the GI bill and I had the education and example he gave me. Neither one of us just had an epiphany.

If your raised in the early 1900’s in rural southwest Arkansas with a 3rd grade education what chance do you have to learn a different world view? None. It’s not happening. They weren’t reading the New York Times. They weren’t reading at all.

Why do you think trump “Loves the uneducated”?

[misanthrope]

155. In 1827 there were more than 100 anti-slavery societies in the South

with more than 6,500 members. Needless to say, they never acquired the power they sought but they were there.

The abolitionist movement for the next three decades would be littered with former Southerners who could no longer brook the "peculiar institution" that formed the foundation of antebellum culture and fled north. All of these people would have all been acculturated in the same society as the ancestors we discuss and there's a great likelihood few of them had extensive educations.

[GulfCoast66]

177. Absolutely correct. There was pretty strong anti-slave sentiment in the south

Till the proslavery forces repressed them. But they were the educated planter class. Or whites from the mountain region where slavery was not a viable business model and they saw slavery as economic competition to their farms.

The Yeoman farmers of the plain regions all aspired to own slaves but often could not. But still supported the system cause it kept them from being on the bottom of the economic pyramid. At least as they saw things. And they were poorly educated if at all.

By the time my grandfather was born all memory of any anti-slave sentiment in the south had been purged from the common knowledge. Most people don’t know about it today.

And even among the anti slavery movement in there south there was zero support for sudden manumission. Most supported various schemes to remove blacks from the South.

The whole episode was and remains the most sordid part of our history. Few good guys. Just different levels of shitty. And the history of my family. No way I can understand the whole Southern Pride thing. Not much to be proud of.

[UniteFightBack]

57. No it was the good guys vs. the bad guys. What a waste to go over there get to see it and that's

what you came away with. Ugh.

[lunatica]

58. This thread was brutal to zipplewrath

And it was deliberately twisted into something he/she wasn’t talking about or implying.

Foot soldiers in wars are not their leaders.

[obamanut2012]

64. +1

[Codeine]

65. He made a factually incorrect statement

and was duly corrected.

[lunatica]

67. You mean brutally corrected don't you?

Because making a factually incorrect statement, if that happened, deserves an out and out attack as far as you are concerned?

[Codeine]

68. No, just corrected.

I don’t believe an internet discussion board rises to the level of brutality.

[lunatica]

69. Keep telling yourself that

[Codeine]

70. I have every confidence that zipplewrath will be fine. nt

[zipplewrath]

101. While I was there

I was reading that many of the guys in the bunkers that morning were in fact eastern Europeans that often caught the crappy duty assignments because they were lower on the priority list. Many of the more senior officers weren't even there that morning due to various reasons. Probably made it even easier for those guys to get assigned crappy shifts.

[Trumpocalypse]

130. Please stop. That is just not true

Less than 20% of the Nazi forces at Normandy were non-Germans: https://militaryhistorynow.com/2014/06/02/germanys-foreign-volunteers-helped-man-the-atlantic-wall/

[Trumpocalypse]

74. No. The foot soldiers

enable the crimes of their leaders.

[Kaleva]

128. One could then say we are guilty of enabling Trump.

[Trumpocalypse]

129. Depends on what you mean by we nt

[Kaleva]

135. If one is not on the run, in jail or on a hunger strike...

I'd wouldn't say that person is part of an active resistance against the illegal Trump Administration. That is, if one agrees with the argument that Trump, with the aid of the Russians, stole the election and is also guilty of numerous other crimes.

[Trumpocalypse]

139. So working to elect Dems in the last

election doesn't count?

[Kaleva]

150. It counts if one thinks Trump is a legitimate president..

who won the election fairly and he's also a person who hasn't obstructed justice or committed other crimes. Just working to elect Democrats suggests one believes everything is normal. That's fine if you believe the latter. I would say most people, judging by their actions or lack of action and not just by what they say, believe we are in normal times. They do things that one would expect a Dem to do in trying to defeat Gerald Ford in 1976.

[True Blue American]

167. If you put it that way

Condemning all for the backing of Trump you would be right.

[Kaleva]

172. We, as citizens, treat Trump like we treated Gerald Ford.

We communicate with members of Congress. We voice our opinions. We work to vote in Democrats.

We have normalized Trump by reacting to him and his administration just as we did with Ford.

[tblue37]

66. Did you see "Letters from Iwo Jima"? nt

[zipplewrath]

99. Yes

I've also read the book by the son of one of the purported flag raisers (although since then I think they've figured out they identified the wrong guy). His son spent early adulthood in Japan and it irritated his father. We are taught not to see anything through the eyes of the enemy.

[stonecutter357]

104. Cool Story, Bro , !

#have you punched a nazi today ?

[YOHABLO]

111. The U.S. should have reacted immediately after Poland was invaded.

Then we allowed them to invade France and nothing. Seems funny that when Iraq invaded a small country like Kuwait we were all too ready to drive them out. Shame on us for not coming to the aid of the Brits sooner. Perhaps a D-Day would never need happen. Plenty of innocent people lost their lives on every side.

[Kaleva]

114. The general public didn't want to be involved in a war overseas.

[zipplewrath]

116. FDR wanted to

There was a pretty strong pacifist movement in this country, although it tended to be more of a isolationist movement than anything.

If there was a missed opportunity, I've always thought it was how WW I ended. The treaty of Versailles did little but establish the battle lines for the next war. The failure of the US to join the league of nations, not to mention Frances insistence on almost irrational repariations from Germany leads almost directly to the next war. Not unlike Bush's post war bungling lead directly to the rise of ISIS and the continued troubles there, which tend to exported elsewhere as well. One could look at the end of the Afghan war with the Soviets as something similar. We walked away and the Taliban and Al Queda stepped into the void.

[sarisataka]

119. That wasn't going to happen

Given public opinion and the state of the US economy in 1939.

Also the US Army would simply have been a speed bump in the Blitzkrieg. The BEF was a larger, better equipped force than the entire US Army and they were completely overwhelmed.

[empedocles]

151. This is an important issue, somewhat applicable to today's times.

Public opinion was strongly opposed to 'wars in Europe' despite provocations like the sinking of a US warship in, 1940?, and German/Japanese ambitions.

FDR saw the war in Europe as inevitable, but knew what he was up against even in mid 1941 in terms of 'public opinion', the strength of the Bund type support [even after Dec 7, 1941. Hitler, turned the corner on pro German sentiment on Dec 11, 1941, with Hitler's declaration of war against the US].

December 12, the US public, public opinion, was ready for all out commitment to the war effort. [Not all corporations, and the reps, were so fully committed, ala certain industries].

[BannonsLiver]

131. This is a good solid post

I haven't been to Normandy yet (have been to Dachau in Oct. of last year which is another story) but I have friends who experienced exactly what you have. I think sometimes people get a little testy about people taking non binary views on things. It's true, there is some efforts at revisionism with regard to "who the bad guys were in WW2" on a macro level, but I don't see that in your post. You're also correct. There were large numbers of conscripts from places like Romania, Ukraine, and even Mongolia defending German positions that day.

One minor quibble i have is while the German's lost that battle, their casualties on invasion day were actually believed to be less than the Allies. There are some estimates of German deaths totaling about 4,000 (though there are some as estimates as high as 9,000) while the allied count was closer to 10,000.

I also take issue with people in the thread who said they should have surrendered. The fact of the matter is they did surrender in large numbers. But if anyone had tried to surrender before the battle they would have likely been shot by their commanding officers. While its true there were a lot of conscripts there that day, there were also loads fervent Nazis as well.

[muriel_volestrangler]

171. Not, it's not "solid"

There's no indication there were "large numbers" of "conscripts" from Romania or Ukraine, but the OP claimed that was "many if not most of these soldiers". An actual source given by others - https://militaryhistorynow.com/2014/06/02/germanys-foreign-volunteers-helped-man-the-atlantic-wall/ - is mostly about volunteers, and about one sixth at most of the men.

[BannonsLiver]

175. Learn some history and get back to me.

You are woefully uninformed about DDay and WW2. Ta Ta....

[muriel_volestrangler]

176. Oh, look, I've given a source, you haven't.

Instead, you're wittering on about Mongolians. As if they had any significance for the Atlantic Wall. Look, you've clearly read something about a few Ukrainian POWs switching to the Nazis so they didn't starve and getting sent there, and thought that meant "many" of the soldiers were East European conscripts. That's not "history", that's an anecdote.

[virgogal]

137. Neither side "signed up" for this.