Listening to NPR in the car this AM-- miscarriage and abortion "accusations"...

[TreasonousBastard]

It was on Sirius, so I know it was The 1A, but not what day. Probably yesterday.

What got to me was the discussion toward the end about how there is no evidentiary difference between a miscarriage and an abortion, so there are already women being charged with having illegal abortions after a miscarriage.

I'll never experience such a thing, so I can only imagine the grief a woman could have after losing a wanted pregnancy. On top of that grief, to indict her for an illegal abortion is an unthinkable cruelty.

[MuseRider]

1. For anyone to even KNOW

about the circumstances you lose a child is obscene and unthinkable cruelty. Should we women be allowed to keep that to ourselves, not talk about it when we don't want to and be able to not tell anyone, even our oh so precious government because it is none of their g-d business?

Thanks TB.

[trev]

10. My ex-wife miscarried in her third month.

It was gut-wrenching. She was incredibly ill from it, and I hated seeing her go through that. I think, if she was to be indicted for it, I would probably have gone on a rampage.

[Kurt V.]

2. i heard it yesterday. it was a pretty wrenching episode. since roe 21 women

have been charged with faking their miscarriage.

[Ms. Toad]

4. Several hundred, according to the NYT. n/t

[AllyCat]

3. In OB, we set up GPAL as the nurmerical representation of any pregnancy

Someone having their first baby is a G1P0 or Gestation 1, no Partum (no birth). Someone with a loss may have a pregnancy characterized as a G2P0010 meaning this is the second pregnancy, she has had no births (either term or pre-term), has had one abortion (yes, that is what it is called...for ANY reason!), and no living children. Someone with G5P2113 means this is 5th pregnancy, 2 term deliveries, one preterm delivery, one abortion, and has 4 living children (so in this case, she would have had at least one set of twins).

My point in all this is that in the medical world, any loss that cannot be characterized as a full- or pre-term birth is an "abortion", the A part of the GPAL system. So ANY miscarriage (spontaneous AB) is called an abortion. It is a legitimate medical term. But the pre-birth/anti-woman nuts have taken the term to mean that the woman went to get her nails done right before she went to "kill her baby". We have to be very careful when we use this terminology around our patients, but that is how we speak to other medical professionals about a woman's "Gs and Ps". If she had a miscarriage, we would say one SAB or "spontaneous abortion". Honestly, i sometimes wonder if this is where the pro-birth nuts get their numbers.

[LiberalFighter]

9. That is diappointing to hear that.

Work needs to be done to better educate what and why the term is used in the medical profession.

It is strange imo that it is characterized that way. And when I have seen death records in my genealogy research of those not living to birth it is recorded as stillborn. A doctor signs off on it and makes me wonder if they do it one way in a setting and different when it is more public.

I wonder if some doctors get screwed up in their mind about the terminology like that whack job in Missouri Rachel had reported about.

But glad you put your experience in reporting here so some of us can have more knowledge about it. As a guy I still wouldn't have enough to understand.

Oh! I bet it was a man that came up with the GPAL system. Adding miscarriages or stillborns into it separately probably was too much for him to do.

Maybe this is something for Rachel to hear more about. And she might do a piece about it on air.

[AllyCat]

17. In the state of Wisconsin, we have a stillbirth form filed

For any delivery with no heartbeat. 20 weeks and older.

[LiberalFighter]

22. I remember seeing some of those filings

in a few counties in Wisconsin when doing research. If my memory is correct they were separate from regular deaths. It has been so long so don't remember if it was separate section within the death records or a separate volume. Time period made a difference as to how records were kept too.

[Ilsa]

16. As long as the system does not distinguish

between elective abortions, SABs, and any other fetal death in utero, I'm fine with it. Let the assholes run around in circles trying to figure out why a third or more of pregnancies end up not producing a baby.

[AllyCat]

18. Definitely more. OB says about 2/3 end in abortion

Whether therapeutic or spontaneous

[Ilsa]

19. I've heard many numbers, but never as high

as 2/3. I suspect the rate of SAB has increased as things like decreasing sperm counts and motility and other factors for women cause nonviable embryos and then SAB.

[RazBerryBeret]

5. I had a miscarriage at 13 weeks

it was a terrible thing to go thru, it happened at home and rushed to the ER. I hadn't really thought about the Hospital, I chose the closest, it was a Methodist Hospital. Although there was no doubt in my mind that the pregnancy was over, the hospital policy was that they couldn't do anything until they had proof that the pregnancy was void. I waited 2 days for my Hormone levels to drop as proof that I was no longer pregnant before having the D&C.... that was traumatic enough... I seriously can't imagine being investigated at that point, between my grief and my hormones, I was a wreck. I am very worried about what is happening here.

[AllyCat]

21. I am so sorry you had this loss and

Then were treated so horribly.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

6. The things that white people are beginning to fear -- criminalized miscarriages, forced reproductive

outcomes, forced sterilizations -- have been performed on BIPOC for years. It is past time to embrace solidarity in these struggles.

[kag]

7. And then there are "missed abortions".

(I've told this story on DU before, so feel free to skip it if you've already read it.)

This happened with my first pregnancy. I lost all of my symptoms, docs couldn't find a heartbeat, but I didn't start bleeding. They had to give me a device (I'll spare the details) to get my cervix to open so that they could do the D&C.

Turned out, after a couple of years of trying, that I have a chromosome abnormality. My brother has the same abnormality, so SIL and I both have a 50% chance of miscarriage besides the 10-20% chance that all women have. I ended up having seven miscarriages, SIL had ten, and we both have two healthy kids.

Problem is, unless you begin bleeding, there's no way to be SURE that the fetus has actually died, and that the pregnancy has already terminated. Sometimes they just can't find a heartbeat, even though it's there. Any investigation into my first miscarriage would have probably put me in prison, maybe my doctor too. But had they NOT treated me for the missed abortion, I was at much greater risk for infection and uterine hemorrhage which might have meant having an emergency hysterectomy. Or it could have just killed me.

All of these old, white guys (I know, I know, there are old white women as well, and POC, but I can't get that picture of the Alabama legislature out of my head) just don't get it. "Abortion" is health care! And they put so many women at risk for some nasty outcomes, all in what they believe is the cause of "saving babies," babies they won't give a shit about once they're born.

Both my SIL, and I desperately wanted kids, and fortunately we were able to have them, but only because abortion is safe and legal.

[Hekate]

8. "The full range of women's necessary health care" is what I now call my support for abortion

I am so sorry for the losses you and your SIL experienced, and glad you were finally able to have the children you so wanted.

The pro-birth fanatics just want to control women, full stop. They really do not give a shit about our children or our health. When I think of my own mother's obstetrical history, I realize their ilk would have happily and self-righteously let her hemorrhage to death from the miscarriage that put her in the hospital, and would have happily and self-righteously prosecuted her for the stillbirth that broke her heart.

I've had it up to here trying to "respect" their beliefs. They have no respect for us. I support the full range of women's necessary health care -- all of it.

[real Cannabis calm]

11. recommended to publicize

[LittleGirl]

13. My SIL

Miscarried at 7.5 months. He was buried. She had gestational diabetes that was undiagnosed. That was in 1989. If she would have been arrested, that would have been just stupid.

[Buckeyeblue]

14. I could see a scenario where women stop seeking prenatal care

because to be diagnosed as pregnant means that if you have a miscarriage it becomes a homicide investigation.

[Ilsa]

20. That is my biggest concern.

Miscarriages will actually increase due to less earlier prenatal care.

[lark]

15. Sickening!

I worked with a woman who had 3 children but 8 miscarriages and every single one of them was devastating to her.

I had a wanted pregnancy that lodged in my tubes and miscarried at about 9 weeks. I was already so sad, having envisioned a sibling for my son and them playing together and it was so hard to let that dream go. I can't imagine having a conversation about proving I didn't intentionally cause this. I would have lost my shit bad.