Why "yes, but" is the wrong answer to questions of misogyny

[lapislzi]

Snip:

“Yes, but… there are worse problems in the world. Starving people in Africa, and so on. Why are you complaining about this?”

“Yes, but… gender expectations hurt men, too. Why aren’t we talking about that?”

End snip


http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2012/01/04/why-yes-but-is-the-wrong-response-to-misogyny/

And a link to the original story that sparked the editorial:

http://skepchick.org/2011/12/reddit-makes-me-hate-atheists/

As in, WTF does this woman's sexuality have to do with her atheism in the first place? There is no excuse for this, none.

/off rant

[seabeyond]

1. more to the story

Last edited Fri Jan 6, 2012, 11:53 AM - Edit history (1)

It’s depressingly predictable. When an instance of misogyny gets pointed out on the Internet, in a forum big enough to garner more than a couple dozen comments, you’re almost guaranteed to see some or all of these types of comments. It’s happening now. In case you haven’t heard, there was a recent incident on Reddit/ atheism, in which a 15-year-old girl posted a photo of herself holding a copy of Carl Sagan’s Demon-haunted World that her mother had given her for Christmas… and was almost immediately targeted with a barrage of sexualized, dehumanizing, increasingly violent and brutal comments. Including — TRIGGER WARNING! — “Well 15 is legal in many places, including my country, so I’ll only have to deal with abduction charges.” “Relax your anus, it hurts less that way.” “Blood is mother nature’s lubricant.” “Tears, natures lubricant.” “BITE THE PILLOW, IM GOIN’ IN DRY!” And including comments blaming the girl for posting a picture of herself in the first place.

That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying that, when an instance of misogyny is being discussed, and you don’t disagree in the slightest that it really was misogyny? When an instance of misogyny is being discussed, and it would be obvious to anyone but a sociopathic hyena on meth that it really was misogyny? When — oh, just for example — a freaking 15-year-old girl posts a picture of herself with a book by Carl Sagan to an online atheist community, and gets targeted with a barrage of sexualized, dehumanizing, increasingly violent and brutal comments, including threats of blood-soaked anal rape?

Please, for the sweet love of Loki and all the gods in Valhalla, when someone points out how terrible and misogynistic that is, do not change the subject.

Please just say, “That is terrible. That is completely unacceptable. That is not how civilized human beings treat one another. Anyone who did that owes that girl the most groveling apology in their repertoire. If they don’t make an apology in the next six nanoseconds, they ought to be shunned. That sort of behavior is absolutely not to be tolerated.”

______________________________

edit to be clear... these are not my words. this is more from the link

[lapislzi]

2. High fives seabeyond

It just boggles my mind how shit like that is not called out the minute it happens.

I have unfriended people for less.

[seabeyond]

5. i hear so often how this is just being a man. i am in these conversation a lot of du.

as a matter of fact, we have a forum that seems to be the place to allow this because after all, it is the male privilege and it is their forum, regardless if women use it. it is male domain.

how easily we accept. and dont dare speak out.

the hoot, is a host is bothered by other acceptance of insult to other groups and letting it be known. truly amazing.

women is probably the most accepted target. by both genders. you will hear many many women stick up for me how really, they are just being men. i gotta tell, would be feeling insulting to mean. but then, that is just the way i roll.

[seabeyond]

7. perpetuate the same prejudicial...separate themselves from the oppressed group...accepted majority

So it seems that women, just as other oppressed groups, often perpetuate the same prejudicial thoughts or behavior that they’ve experienced in a way to separate themselves from the oppressed group and be accepted as part of the positive majority. Competition is formed in order to be ingratiated to those in positions of power or those seen as possessing positive characteristics. And yet, Steinem explains, when an opportunity is created for the sharing of experiences, a sense of community emerges. A sense of sisterhood, if you will.

[lapislzi]

77. Divide and rule. Works every time.

But, it's amazing. When you set boundaries, you can separate the wheat from the chaff. People who understand these tropes for what they are--these are the ones who stay in my circle. The ones who criticize me for making a big deal, or for being "too sensitive" are left by the wayside. My life is too rich and too full to make time for such types. If they show themselves willing to learn, I'm happy to teach by example. Otherwise, good riddance.

[seabeyond]

81. i saw your post about comedian. laugh at the vulgar just holes joke. how many women sat, laughed

yet uncomfortable with the barrage of insult being hurtled at them. how many too fuckin stupid to get the insult.

i dont have a problem walking out. i am not the coward or stupid, taking the purposeful insult directed right at me and the smug arrogance knowing a woman would take it.

[redqueen]

29. Really?

This rationalizing, excuse-making BS song and dance is so routine, I would be shocked if it ever *didn't* happen.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

6. Horrific, absolutely horrific

That's all I can say because I don't know what else to say.

[seabeyond]

10. the women like to pretend it is not so bad, not effect all of us as a whole. the men

who dont particpate dare not call the men out. and many just comfort themselves with this is men, biology, really, not a deal.

we hear it often, in many ways, and it is allowed to stand. if people do not call this out, then why wouldnt it escalate.

but watch any number of threads on du when a woman dares to call it out and watch the tantrums that begin. and why? cause they can. and what about the support they get from the other men. the cheering. we have some fine examples here on du. so i hate for us to pretend we are above it.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

32. This is quite true. There are women who bobble-head their way through life and are terrified of

making comments that might make them unpopular. Instead, they prefer to portray themselves as the media's version of the 'ideal' woman: a dumbed-down, surgically-altered female.

[redqueen]

33. " i hate for us to pretend we are above it."

No ****.

[Iggo]

26. Fucking atheists!!!

Last edited Thu Jan 5, 2012, 12:55 PM - Edit history (1)

Edited to add:

[seabeyond]

27. really? you only see this issue with atheists? or rw men? or men..... nt

[Nuclear Unicorn]

49. or society's objectification of women

which sadly, many women have facilitated. I stopped watching MTV at an early age because I knew my life had to be worth mre than grinding on some misogynist singer. There's plenty of blame to go around and yes, it includes the women. That we should struggle from millenia of being treated like bought chattel and sex objects only to express our freedom by becoming sex objects for the price of a few golds chains is soul-crushing.

That girl was savaged -- albeit only rhetorically -- by people who did not see her as a person but only an object. Sadly, post #26 only reinforced that dehumanization by refusing to confront it. Apparently a back-handed defense of atheism where no such attack exists is more important than vile anal rape comments directed at a child.

"Damn the child, give us the object!"

sad, just sad

[seabeyond]

55. you are so smart. such an articulate writer. yes... to all of your post.

right on

[redqueen]

57. "That we should struggle from millenia

of being treated like bought chattel and sex objects only to express our freedom by becoming sex objects for the price of a few golds chains is soul-crushing."

Yes it is.

[seabeyond]

61. actually we stepped away from being stupid, dependent, inferior to the sex object. one control over

another.

how stupid are we?

[redqueen]

70. Not stupid.

Raised to please. Indoctrinated. Took me years to see the light.

Wasn't until a brogressive accidentally showed his ass, and straight up said he respected madonnas more than the whores he of course at least pretended to like as he enjoyed all the sexy fun. Then I realized... I am participating in my own exploitation, and being categorized as "less than" by the men standing up so proudly for my right to do it.

[seabeyond]

71. boys are raised in the same stupid. this is why i fight for boys as much as girls. nt

[redqueen]

73. Yep, we all are immersed in it.

Some kids are lucky enough to have parents who don't echo it, which is excellent.

[seabeyond]

188. the kids that do not have the parents discussing this are not fairing so well.... nt

[Marrah_G]

120. You have a real gift for getting to the heart of a matter

in a very eloquent way.

[getdown]

143. yes and BS detector full strength

"I stopped watching MTV at an early age because I knew my life had to be worth mre than grinding on some misogynist singer."

[PassingFair]

205. "...or society's objectification of women which sadly, many women have facilitated."

I don't mean to be too obvious here, and I agree with what you're saying, but don't you find this statement
ironic, given your avatar?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

208. Absolutely fair to ask

I believe Betty operated on her own terms, in contravention of what society demanded. While June was vacuuming in pearls Betty was the girl Wally and Eddie were looking at behind the garage. She was a mystery to them. She was enticing to them. But it was always on her terms, not because she was trapped in a culture that allowed her to be nothing else.

June Cleaver could never be anything other than June Cleaver. The MTV hoochie-mamas will never be anything else. Their respective societies have demanded that this will be their fate for all time. Some slaves wear iron shackles, others wear pearls, still others wear "bling."

As ironic as it seems Betty Page, even during her bondage shots, was one of the freest women of her day (and I think she has a sexiness that endures the eras). That's OK, I like irony, hence the name Nuclear Unicorn.

I don't know if that's valid or if it even makes sense but there it is. Thanks for letting me ramble.

[PassingFair]

209. To each her own.

To me, she was just another woman who decided that
it was OK to exploit her sexuality for money.

Whether she was "free" or forced to act as an object,
the net result drags all of us down.

Just so you know, one of my best friends is
a Betty Page fan, and has those horrendous bangs...

[seabeyond]

210. how do you know the pearls did not come off once the door was shut?

and how do you know the other (who i am clueless too) was not raped as a child and strugglin with sexual identification cause it got so messed up from her youth?

just throwin it out. explorin

seems to me the 2nd and 3rd wave argument in feminism. 3rd wave saying.... 2nd wave anti sex.

[Odin2005]

72. Jesus, what a bunch of assholes!

[BlancheSplanchnik]

90. a million recs, seabeyond.

That is exactly what girls and women face for merely making an appearance on the web. It's easy to find, everywhere.

The onus for misogyny has always been shifted to women. BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!!

[Marrah_G]

116. Thank you for a really great post

[redqueen]

121. lapislzi and I should have included that snippet

In our OPs on this

[dogknob]

130. Guess they weren't familiar with the book.

Don't forget that when, in the company of misogynists, a man dares to speak up and denounce vile behavior such as this, said man's sexual orientation is almost always attacked as well.

"Thoughtful" - "Intelligent" - "Literate" - "Sensitive" - "Considerate" (the list goes on)

These are all code-words for "Gay" to these people. They are fact-proof, thought-proof and totally conditioned.

[getdown]

132. "They are fact-proof, thought-proof and totally conditioned."

The more of these great comments, it looks like this epidemic is spread through the screen. IRL ppl might actually getta clue or get their own ass kicked.

[redqueen]

142. Don't forget White Knight.

I've seen that one used on DU before.

[Aerows]

203. Seabeyond, you are SO RIGHT

It's amazing the things people will say to other human beings. It's like evil feeds off of itself. One person says something beyond the pale, and rather than stopping it, others turn it up a notch.

If nothing else, we can all do our part to change the level of discourse.

[seabeyond]

206. we could, but we wont and we dont. on meta a female poster said, even if they clearly break du rule

leave it alone so others will see the trash.

that is also validating the post, encouraging the post, feeding the ugly.

we had an event the other day, where bullying won. was sanctioned by du and duers. the voice of the few shut up, and the bullying cheered.

it isnt going to happen unless the people are willing for it to happen. too many are not willing. the voice of the few will shut up. that is what the bully does.

[Aerows]

215. As much as it saddens me

I have seen that, too. I'm not certain what the answer is other than to speak up when those of us that disagree can speak up. When I'm on a jury, I let my conscience be my guide, and that is all that I can do, and is all that anyone can do.

[seabeyond]

3. i'm told,the way men are. accept it. by many. often. not that i see other men countering. dare they?

Look you guys, it needed to be said! Obviously someone had to make it clear that this 15-year old girl has various orifices that these grown men could stick their penises into. Swimmerhair is just the man who took the fall. He’s just saying what everyone’s thinking, as made clear by the 167 upvotes he got [the numbers to the right of usernames are net points, then the breakdown of upvotes in orange and downvotes in blue. That breakdown is not necessarily perfectly accurate but it is close]. But hey, you know, in some countries it’s totally legal for a grown man to have sex with a 15-year old. So let’s add abduction and rape to the mix:

“Relax your anus, it hurts less that way.” (+1715, -648) “Blood is mother nature’s lubricant.” (+570, -175) “Tears, natures lubricant”

[getdown]

134. a good sign will be when men stop trying to explain

that "bitch" has nothing to do with females

"bitches and hos" has been normalized at every level.

[redqueen]

162. Or "pussy", either.

It makes me seriously worried that I am seeing these terms being defended as non-gendered slurs more often, and not less often.

[getdown]

171. crazy

monkey see monkey doo doo

[Sarah Ibarruri]

4. Thanks for posting this, lapislzi. Misogyny is rampant. I blame the media more than anything

else. We Americans are more influenced by the media than most other countries. People react with similar opinions to those expressed by the media. It's almost a knee-jerk reaction.

Do you think if there were more people in the media expressing non-misogynist views, people would be more aware of issues like these?

[lapislzi]

11. When you mention the media, I can't help but think

of the women portrayed in it. "Twinkies," my friend calls them. The most visible women in the media are pretty white women, with a few exceptions. It's the accepted "norm" for what a woman should look and act like: an object for the delectation of the male audience.

When Hillary was running for prez, what adjective got used most often? "Shrill." You ever hear a man called "shrill" for speaking his mind in a forthright manner?

No one dares call misogyny out for what it is, except us "shrill" "feminazi" "mouthy bitchezzz." Been called all of these. And my husband swells with pride (see what I did there?)

[Sarah Ibarruri]

21. Yup! The media shows us 'twinkies' and surgically altered 'barbies' who have no opinions

That's why every time a brilliant woman opens her mouth, she gets accused of being "masculine" and hating men. With the media's standard of dumb and surgically altered as the model to follow, and not too many people to question that because they're too dumbed-down (via the influence of the media) to know better, it's a surprise it's not worse!

[BlancheSplanchnik]

91. [phone] to you and lapiszli

couldn't agree more

[Sarah Ibarruri]

119. Thanks! And hi there! nt

[BlancheSplanchnik]

197. :)

[TorchTheWitch]

198. and when an attractive women isn't doing something brilliant

other women that insist they're all up on recognizing misygony in both men and women call them "twinkies" or "barbies" , critisize them for being "surgically altered" (whether they are or not, and as if there's something wrong with it anyway) as well as accuse them of being "dumb" and having "no opinions" (nevermind that one can't know any of that, but surely they must since they're attractive and on tv) yet somehow fail to recognize that they're being just as objectifying and dehumanizing as any man could be.

Interesting.

[seabeyond]

199. point. we need to remember. nt

[Sarah Ibarruri]

200. This is precisely what Faludi was alluding to

Right wing females who, while pretending to be feminist, knock themselves out to PROTECT what they express as some believed 'right' of certain women to defend misogyny and subjugation. For example, defending the representation by the media of barbieized females as the ideal and attacking anyone who points out that representation is wrong.

[seabeyond]

207. you can talk about how fox works, pornifying their women. we see palin proclaim feminist as she uses

her sexuality to get a vote and opposes everything feminist. we can call her out on behavior and words.

but to reduce them to sexist names, i agree, we are better than that.

i have never had a tough time challenging, without reducing myself to that.

[redqueen]

201. Surgically altered can mean many things.

Cosmetic surgery to correct defects is one thing.

Spending gobs of money on major surgeries simply attempting to mold yourself to better meet some ideal standard deserves scorn IMO.

[seabeyond]

13. i blame people. we know. we know what we are doing. a person feels the abuse of power

whether we are doling it out or experiencing it or watching it. we know. damn straight. and to pretend otherwise is to excuse it.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

24. I would love to blame people outright. I can't though. I think a lot of people are unconscious.

Too many are too dense and not well self-educated. They don't pick up a book, they don't inform themselves, and they're the beer-and-reality-shows crowd, or right wingnuts.

[seabeyond]

30. there are a handful of reasons right there i blame people. nt

[Sarah Ibarruri]

43. The media has no real role models. nt

[Aerows]

204. Me too. n/t

[redqueen]

36. Yep. We won't accept rationalizations or excuses for racism.

There is no excuse for anyone to pretend this kind of crap is any different. None.

[seabeyond]

40. exactly. racism is clear. sexism? is there even sexism? nah. just that way biology made us

evolutionary behavior tell us male is dominant. so stfu and let it be.

[redqueen]

48. I'm so sick of brogressives

and the women who enable them. I've had it with excuses.

[seabeyond]

56. yup. as i watch it grow and grow and become more accepted, yup

pretty damn sick and fuckin tired of it myself.

[Marrah_G]

125. brogressives!

great word

[redqueen]

128. Isn't it perfect?

I love feminist sites. I find many such excellent descriptions for so many of the things we face.

[Whisp]

66. I blame good men for not speaking out against stuff like that.

Many examples throughout my lifetime and witness to it on the net. Speak up, you're not going to lose your balls and might gain some self respect. These insults are also directed to the women and girls in your life that you care for.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

68. Often, unless one experiences something, it's hard to remember it's going on. What I find really

awful is that WOMEN don't mention it, and it's women that are suffering the results of this. Too many women are complicit and choose to remain silent.

[riderinthestorm]

147. Beyond complicit and silent, there are a fair few women who speak in favor of their own oppression!

I can't tell you how many times, even on DU, where anyone who tries to speak out against something misogynistic gets SHOUTED down. Oh it's subtle - those women "chose" to be a participant in that particular misogyny so it's all okay! or some such variant thereof....

There are more than a few women who actually try to keep the societal chains in place. They too are so acclimatized to their own oppression, they don't even see it anymore and if you point out even some small piece of the problem they are some of the loudest in defense.

[getdown]

155. " They too are so acclimatized to their own oppression...."

yup.

And it's a slippery slope to discuss.

The Backlash (Susan Faludi) succeeded, as did the RW haters hijacking of language, which makes it all harded to sort out, including for those who grew up with the brainwashing (which is all of us in different eras; post MTV being esp powerful and regressive).

The fact that the styles and fashions for young women still (!) emphasize looking like a 70's hooker are a clue.

A lot of young wo/men see thru it. Some don't.

On FB a high school girl objected to the Dr Pepper 10 commercial and her friend made a crack about "feminists." That was enough to kill any more comments.

Maybe some young guys too object to that kind of overthetop stupidity? And girls having that shit shoved in their face NOT FOR YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BEEYOTCH/111111111111111!!!!!!

TOTALLY SUCKS DUDE

[Sarah Ibarruri]

170. +100000! I agree! And it is a slippery slope, which is why we MUST discuss it.

By pointing out pro-oppression women, we will be isolating a huge part of the problem. The biggest, in my opinion, because people who work toward their further oppression, make the problem a thousand times worse.

[getdown]

173. if we could get more voices

to talk about it from the young person's POV
m or f

who grew up with the normalization of crazy misogynist in yo face CRAP in media and social groups

it would help sort it out

effin quagmire of mindfucking

[Sarah Ibarruri]

175. I so agree. It's not just a cliche that young people are the future - they literally are!

From time to time I see young girls who are aware of these things speaking out, in documentaries and such. Time for more of that.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

165. Yes! You've described something that irks me tremendously. The female participation in oppression

against women. I think we women are responsible for not being complicit in this. We should not and must not wait for all men to come around, or for men to defend us against it.

[seabeyond]

69. how about all the women that support and perpetuate this crap. i want, expect men to speak out BUT

there are too many women that are doing exactly the same.

[Whisp]

84. that is sadly too true.

In my personal life tho most if not all of the women I know do not stand for mysognist crap when they are confronted by it. But I do see your point. I suppose it's really all about fear. Men fear being demasculinized if they don't act like something out of Quest for Fire barbarism and women fear being called a feminazi if they try to defend.

[seabeyond]

87. exactly. and the area i am in, i see most ALL women taking it and not a single one speaking out

literally. i do not see a single one. we are talking upper middle class, edcuated women.

unless it is on the msot obvious of offense to women, like stay in kitchen, or unequal pay, women keep their fuckin mouth shut over and over and over.

[riderinthestorm]

148. +10000 nt

[Sarah Ibarruri]

172. Yes indeed, seabeyond, yes indeed. What is the best way to deal with that, though? I say

speak out and point it out.

[seabeyond]

180. what i do. another thread, another forum, talking about sports. a perfect example of what we hash

out on this thread. a woman saying, to call the behavior in sport out, to challenge what i allowed in sports is harmful to women and make them look silly. that ALL the work women did, this lessens the cause. the same poster that has defended dsk, edwards, polanski, assauge.

[RadiationTherapy]

8. It is up to men to confront other men

because the men who make these comments do so for other men's validation. Stopping the validation slows it; punishing such comments will eventually end it. I have done it and seen it done on Facebook many times. Few men want to be the ones defending how "funny" rape is and when they are called out to explain why it is funny, almost always back down. They are trolls and feed on your outrage. I might calmly ask them, for instance, why they think it is funny to tear someones flesh by forcibly inserting your penis so roughly that there is sufficient blood to lubricate the remainder of your rape.

[lapislzi]

12. Then you're accused of not having a sense of humor

Seriously. They think that fobbing it off as a joke excuses the implicit violence.

[seabeyond]

15. there was a thread on a 10 yr old girl model sexualized. men were quick to say, PRUDE.

if one dared challenge it. what thrilled me to no end, were men that said, if calling htis shit out is a prude, prude i am.

no sense of humor. fine.

nope. none

[lapislzi]

19. Right, turn it around, deflect and displace.

Classic straw men and other demons of lazy rhetoric and flabby thinking. I like to think DU is better than that. There are enough critical minds here to call shit shit when it stinks like shit.

[Romulox]

22. Your memory is selective. nt

[lapislzi]

23. Please to explain?

Whose memory, and how?

[Romulox]

28. I was responding to seabeyond, re: "men were quick to say, PRUDE." nt

[seabeyond]

25. no, it doesnt and the thread stands for people to see. with a few posts i said....

just wait, someone will be calling people prudes. didnt even have it posted before exactly that was happening. the prudisness of america.

[Romulox]

31. "Your memory is selective" means you are only remembering some of what went on. nt

[seabeyond]

35. i am addressing the part of that thread that is relevant to this thread. i did not say ALL replies

were such.

i did not address and discuss every direction that thread went. you are correct. i think most all people.... get that.

[Romulox]

38. So. You admonish men to speak out, but when they do it isn't relevant? That was my point! nt

[RadiationTherapy]

41. She did comment on my speaking out in the past, but this thread is mostly about admonishing men

to speak out more often and vehemently.

[seabeyond]

45. all thru the thread recongize the men speaking out. the post you address is about the men

speaking out saying if this makes me a prude, so be it.

need i also say there were men in that thread that absolutely called out the "sick" "perverted" photos? ok. there were lots. i am so thrilled with that thread in the number of men that spoke out.

it is one of my favorite threads.

now, this is going to sound snarky, but it is truly sincere. it WARMED me that so many men recognized what was. i probably responded to most all the men saying.... thank you. i appreciate it. i love you.

is that enough. i think this is the point of the OP. have i validated you enough? and even that is not being snarky. it is trying to be heard. this is what women face talking to men. have i said enough good yet, for you to know i am on your side. and appreciate, value, thank... that you are on ours.

[Romulox]

59. Right. What *actually happened* was a lot more nuanced then "men were quick to say, PRUDE.". nt

[seabeyond]

63. as i said, the first subthread i was typing how we will be called prude, asexual, anti sex, jealous

pearl clutcher, swoon on the couch.

the third or fourth subthread had started about americans being prudes.

where am i not presenting it properly?

[seabeyond]

64. but i think you are showing a perfect example of what happens when discussing this issue. nt

[RadiationTherapy]

16. Too bad for me. Too bad for them too. I intend to ruin their "jokes" and "funny moments"

if it is about rape (and several other topics, of course). I will remind them that humor requires creativity and that mere shock (blood: nature's lubricant) with little intelligence, savvy, or wit is barely "humor". It takes practice and it can be unsettling, but it has to be addressed. There is no options or excuses for aware, progressive men not to confront these comments.

[seabeyond]

20. we had a thread on rape jokes. so many defended it. hubby and i listened to comedy channel

on my radio. mostly on our trips we have kids in the car so we listen to laugh usa. clean comedy. this trip was just us so we had adult comedy. four hours both ways. on comedian disecting women vulgarly got my husband to change channels. i swore to myself i would keep mouth shut. on the way home listening to a comedian he just went on and on in his vulgar "joke" about women, i finally turned off saying can't listen to another second.

we turned it back on laugh usa. laughed the rest of the way home

we both realized we did very little laughing with the adult channel. laugh usa, lots of laughing. keeping it clean, they had to be witty.

filthy, lazy comedy

[Odin2005]

79. I feel like punching people that say "can't you take a joke???"!

[seabeyond]

14. it is mens place. i could not agree more. and it is womens place to challenge the other women that

accept and allow because as an oppressed group we want to belong to the accepted majority. each gender has work with our own.

and mens place that if a woman dare speak out, have the courage to back her

and, i will note..... you do speak out. i love what you have to say. value and appreciate.

[RadiationTherapy]

18. Thanks, SB, I appreciate your comments as well. While I encourage women to relentlessly challenge

comments such as what we've been discussing, the comments are purely for homosocial purposes and the approval/disapproval of women will likely have a small impact on altering the behavior.

[lapislzi]

46. Agreed. Enlightened men need to start calling out other men

And then they will also feel the force of it as well, when the same misogynists call them "pussies" and the like. As if a pussy were a bad thing. I guess it's an OK thing to HAVE (as a receptacle for the holy lingam) but not OK to BE. <--FACETIOUS tag ON.

[RadiationTherapy]

54. Then I'll say, "you are what you eat!" HAAAAAAAAhhaahahahaha

I mean, if we're gonna get all "junior high school" in here! hahahaha

[cliffordu]

178. A nice thing to ask these fuckers is

"Do you talk about your daughter that way?"

Or mother or sister....

[Nuclear Unicorn]

53. Girls can too. I'm not some frail princess waiting to be rescued from ogres by a handsome prince

I *earned* the moniker nuclear unicorn.

However, I will applaud your comment on the grounds that men will do an overwhelming amount of good by looking at their locker room buddy and saying, "Dude. That shit ain't cool."

[RadiationTherapy]

58. Yes, women must confront it, certainly, but (hahaha, "yes, but") since it is homosocial

in its seeking of validation, it will unlikely not impact the behavior much. The roots of this misogyny, I think, is that in order to reinforce one's membership in a group, a person puts down other groups. So men putting down women is to reinforce their homosociality and not to irritate or offend or be approved/disapproved of by women.

[seabeyond]

60. women, too. do we ask, why is it so hard to call ourselves women. because it means old?

are we so afraid to be old that we must always project ourselves as being girls. this was a huge hurtle for me. i am calling myself a woman now. i LOVE it. it has become an issue in my life cause not a single person can call a woman, just that. seems insulting. can you believe. something so simple. we are girls or ladies. but..... i digress.

looking at their locker room buddy and saying, "Dude. That shit ain't cool."

that is what happened in my day. that is what worked in my day. we left that time cause girls/women are free game.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

74. True, so very true.

Still, nothing wrong with girls being strong girls because they eventually grow to become even stronger women.

Girl or woman, I'll slay my own ogres -- but I'll still keep the handsome prince for yummies later.

[RadiationTherapy]

65. Even if I thought you were frail, I would not imagine a prince/ess rescue scenario.

And I would not call you a girl.

[lumberjack_jeff]

93. No. It's not.

When you see something which pisses you off, it's not my fault for not having seen it first.

Newsflash: people say stupid shit. Holding everyone with characteristic "X" responsible for all the stupid shit that anyone with characteristic "X" does is called collective guilt and is only useful to justify a predjudice against characteristic "X".

[RadiationTherapy]

101. It is up to men because it is said for the sake of men's approval. OBVIOUSLY, one would have

to witness it in order to confront it. OBVIOUSLY it is not "all men" who participate in the hate speech. Can we move on now, or are there more reasons why men are not responsible for dealing with this?

[lumberjack_jeff]

104. It is said for shock value.

They said it for the same reason that kids say all manner of stupid shit or buy movies and music in which the only redeeming quality is "Whoa! I didn't think you could say that! Kewl!"

Of course it's inappropriate, but I'm not here to act as policeman of every man, and I reject your authority to appoint me.

[RadiationTherapy]

111. You are, OBVIOUSLY, welcome to be a passive bystander on this issue.

If you find "blood: nature's lubricant" to be mere shock words that have little or no repercussions on the young men and women coming of age in our society, then move on with your life. I maintain that it is up to men to correct this, but OBVIOUSLY, I never expected ALL men to participate.

[lumberjack_jeff]

163. You are starting from two false premises

a) that they do it to get validation from other men. They do it for shock value. "I dare you to be a bigger anonymous douchebag than me".
b) that "men" have it within their power to correct this. Men who are offended by it are as much a target audience of the douchebaggery as women.

[RadiationTherapy]

181. I think, in the context of this thread, that my premises are correct.

So you go ahead and continue to do nothing or assert that ignoring the problem is a solution and I will continue to confront it, hold men accountable, and encourage other men to do the same.

[lumberjack_jeff]

186. Ignoring the douchebags is EXACTLY the right thing to do.

Post on boards with moderators, such as DU.

The one thing they can\'t stand is to be ignored.

This OP and the articles linked to it are precisely the kind of validation that the jackasses want. It\'s a self-perpetuating cycle of attention getting.

[RadiationTherapy]

187. No. That does not suit me. I will confront it and encourage other men to do the same.

[seabeyond]

189. you go dude. i am so fuckin tired of this shit. hey, there is a point

to what lumberjack says. if anyone dare challenge male right, they put out more shit to degrade women and call a man less.

the choice is stfu cause it is a mans word

or be flooded with male dominance in objectifying women to put women in their place. there is a certain amount of look at me. so what do we do at that point?

[lumberjack_jeff]

190. Good luck with that.

The boards I moderate will continue to have that stuff deleted, and the posters banned, without comment.

Shall I get you your armor Mr Quixote?

[RadiationTherapy]

193. Your opinion of the metaphoric magnitude or foolishness of my approach to this situation

is as meaningful to me as my opinions would be to you. I am comfortable with what I have expressed in this thread and will leave it to those who see it to make their own determination on which method is the better route forward.

[Marrah_G]

129. You should think about why this thread upsets you.

I don't know you or anything about you, but you might want to ponder why her comments made you more upset at her then at the men and boys who treat females in such a manner.

[getdown]

103. well good thing it's all about YOU!

all righty then

[lumberjack_jeff]

105. The previous poster did make it all about me.

I reject his/her authority to appoint me the father/police of every other man.

"It's men's responsiblity" is shorthand for "I find criticizing only the douchebags who said this too limiting".

[getdown]

106. really?

lemme see. be right back

[getdown]

107. no it looks quite reasonable and doable

" It is up to men to confront other men because the men who make these comments do so for other men's validation. Stopping the validation slows it; punishing such comments will eventually end it"

It's a valid point and does not say "all men" in either case. (of course it isn't all)

Only those aware and available to comment would be able to anyway.

Simple enuff.

[redqueen]

109. Logic!

Love it.

[getdown]

114. we all do

what we can

[RadiationTherapy]

118. Thank you.

[getdown]

127. thank you!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

191. So true

The all-too-familiar situation of being subjected to obscene remarks just for walking down the street?

I've ONLY heard them from males in groups. Never from a man or boy who was alone.

After a few years, I realized that it was all a game to them, and that a guy who got any reaction at all "won" and was high-fived and congratulated by the other guys.

It's all about looking macho in front of the other guys by putting women down.

[justiceischeap]

9. Reading some of the comments on the skepchick site is just amazing

A lot of folks answers to the problem is to either ignore the misogyny or for women to post anonymously online so we aren't harassed. The fact that the majority of the commenters making these kinds of statements don't realize they're adding to the problem is astounding.

[HuckleB]

34. Indeed.

Luckily, Rebecca Watson takes them to task.

On the other hand, one only need to stop by the DU sports forum to see a different kind of misogyny being defended as "being a part of sports."

Alas...

[seabeyond]

37. yes... i am thinking at this moment we have a wonderful example of exactly this. layed out, step

by fuckin step by fuckin step.

can draw a little chart on the hypocrisy of it.

and all because i gently poked the bear, for all of a second.

[lapislzi]

47. Ha! That's my husband's nickname for me.

I am notorious for my bear-poking prowess

[redqueen]

51. The anger is telling.

How dare anyone even hint at criticizing male privilege? Raaaaaage!

[RadiationTherapy]

62. Many see the deconstruction of their privilege as "discrimination". We see this a lot in the

"class war" yellers who claim they are being "discriminated" against when, really, it is their unearned privileges that are being scrutinized.

[redqueen]

86. It's so annoying,

because I'm used to that privilege being recognized here and in other progressive or liberal spaces. But outside of feminist sites there just is no widespread recognition of these issues, even among other women. It gets discouraging and depressing.

[RadiationTherapy]

88. I am on the inside (white, straight, bio-male) looking out, but I feel the same way sometimes.

Just remember, to quote Bill Hicks, "YOU'RE right! You are RIGHT! Not those fuckers!"

[MattBaggins]

17. Reddit is such a cesspool of idiots

nothing but trolls with no class at all.

[Dreamer Tatum]

39. Unless it's 'yes, but she's a Republican,' of course nt

[seabeyond]

50. +1. it is all in the justifications. but... it is a mans forum. it shows the undercurrent

and not exclusive to atheists, repugs, .... ect. but men. and that is not ALL men. but it is growing and feeding cause to much is allowed without challenge.

[redqueen]

52. Yes, at least now with Bachmann out

I won't have to try to explain for the kajillionth time why its still misogyny, yes, even if the target is a republican.

[redqueen]

42. Thanks for posting this. (nt)

[MineralMan]

44. Absolutely. Trying to divert from such issues,

the "Lighten up" and "That's just PC" responses and the attempts to change the subject are transparent and say a lot about those who use them. Misogyny is ugly and harmful, and needs to be called out wherever it occurs. And it's not just women who need to do it. Men need to step up and call it out too. Do misogynists not have mothers, sisters, and daughters? I simply do not understand it.

[lapislzi]

67. That's a perfect response.

When somebody tells me to "lighten up" I know I've touched a nerve. Like the time I walked out of a standup comedy show because the comic was such a pig. My ex-husband (one of the reasons he's my ex) was furious. My "bitchiness" had embarrassed him in front of his friends.

All because I took exception to being referred to (essentially) as a "hole."

[Marrah_G]

131. Hi MM

We don't often see eye to eye on things, but thank you for your post and thank you for calling out other men when they cross the line.

[sufrommich]

75. Thanks for posting this, the internet

sure brings out the ugly in our culture.

[Odin2005]

76. Assholes threated to RAPE her because she is an Atheist?

Christ Almighty!

[HuckleB]

78. It's worse than that.

Read Rebecca Watson's piece on it at Skepchick. Most of the threats probably came from fellow atheists.

[Odin2005]

82. Really? OMG!

[lapislzi]

80. No, assholes threatened to rape her because they're assholes.

Any excuse would have served to trigger that load of filth.

Any woman is a target, for any reason. It's the way of male privilege.

Oh, and "no" means "yes," in case you were confused. When she says "no," that's just the opening of negotiations.

[Odin2005]

83. I get pissed off whenever I hear the "no means maybe and..."

"...maybe means yes" crap from other guys.

[seabeyond]

85. they did it solely cause she was a girl. not cause atheist. not cause she did or said anything

but because they were men putting her in her place and no other reason needed.

[HuckleB]

94. Exactly.

Very succinctly put.

[redqueen]

89. No, it was just jokes, not threats.

The point is that the jokes are not ok. The vast majority knows threats are not ok. Many will defend 'just jokes'.

[HuckleB]

92. How does one truly differentiate between them?

[redqueen]

99. Not sure...

perhaps the venomousness of the words?

Either way it is always the 'its just joking, lighten up' excuse that is so prevalent. That is the issue most often faced by any female daring to enter any male-dominated space and reveal that she is a female.

The actual rape and death threats are usually reserved for feminists who dare to challenge these things in public.

[lapislzi]

152. A thin veneer, a slippery slope

I would prefer to nail it at the source.

No, it's not funny any more than rape is funny. It's not funny any more than racist slurs are funny. I refuse to "lighten up" as long as my sisters and I are the subject of jokes about our anatomy or our perceived sexual availability. If that makes me a curmudgeon, so be it.

It's one thing to enjoy male attention, but my brain is up here, guys.

[redqueen]

166. Hear, hear!

My favorite MRA insult is when men say women who object to objectification just hate sex. Idiots.

[getdown]

97. many will type things they would never dare say or admit to IRL

weenies

[OriginalGeek]

95. I am a man and I want to state publicly and unequivocally

that I come down completely on the side of OP and other human beings in this thread and at Skepchick's site.


I say "human beings" on purpose because I simply find it impossible to believe anyone who would side with those filthy commenters on the Skepchick site could be human.

[getdown]

96. lots of one handed typists on the innertubes

wankin and crankin out self hatred

brave behind the screen

[seabeyond]

98. there issue with this is over the years we have normalized this talk to such an extent it is in RL

i see it all over. the acceptance of treating girls and women in this manner. and fewer men standing up to it and speaking out. fewer mothers and fathers teaching both their sons and daughters it is not acceptable.

we now say.... ah, just kids, or just boys or, just teens.... or, just men.

[getdown]

100. yeah, always some excuse, huh

sickness breeding more sickness

[lapislzi]

153. Boys generally have mothers

and fathers who should be teaching by word and deed how to respect other human beings. All of them. No exceptions.

"How would you like it if somebody said that about your mom?"

[chrisa]

102. I bet the people that took part in that flamefest

are the same idiots that post troll-face, say "lulz," and make the same "get back in the kitchen" jokes over and over again on everything they find on the internet featuring a female.

I would like to think that they're all just 12 years old, but I'm not so sure.

[redqueen]

110. They're not all kids.

One of the guys was angrily defending his right as an older man to ... whatever. Ugh. Sickening.

[chrisa]

122. True. The internet is home to many screaming man-children.

They will fuss petulantly until they get their way, receive their binky, or anime comes on the TV.

The best defense against them is to attack them with rays of sunlight or force them outdoors.

[treestar]

108. What are they even pissed off about?

Not getting it. So she is reading that book or has that book or is an atheist, what?

[justiceischeap]

113. I'm going to guess you mean the folks on Reddit?

If you mean the other two sites, they're pissed over the treatment this 15-yr-old girl got treated on Reddit. If you mean Reddit, they aren't pissed at her, they were making rape jokes at her expense.

[treestar]

137. But how come?

Not defending them just wondering what set them off.

[justiceischeap]

151. Did you read either of the links that the OP provided?

People are pissed off because of the comments the young woman received. She posted a photo of herself with the Carl Sagan book "The Demon Haunted World" given to her by her mom who is very religious. She posted in the Reddit Atheist forum. She then received the following remarks, presumably from males:








What "set them off" on Reddit was that she is an attractive minor female and making jokes about anal blood being natural lubricant was considered not only appropriate but worth voting up.

You should really check out this post: http://skepchick.org/2011/12/reddit-makes-me-hate-atheists/

[treestar]

157. I did look at it but it's still strange they are that attacking of her

just for posting a Carl Sagan book.

[redqueen]

167. It's not about the book.

It's because she is female, and dared to show her face, that's it.

[seabeyond]

115. she is a female and it is mans right to talk trash to a female on the net

to put her in her place so they feel like men. no more, no less.

that is the only thing that was happening. it is an illustration of how females are treated on the net. it is an illustration of mans right to say what they please, so they feel manly

[chrisa]

124. Built up nerd rage after years of female rejection.

[hfojvt]

139. are nerds really the only ones who are rejected?

What a sad commentary that is.

[chrisa]

144. No. What made you think that?

They just happen to be basement dwelling nerds/losers who will never get women, and therefore feel the need to lash out at them. The fact that they don't get women is their fault, because they're such terrible people to begin with.

[hfojvt]

168. you assume they are nerds. Why?

Most of the nerds I know/knew were not terrible people. The terrible people, to me, were the ones who would shove a nerd in a locker just for fun.

[Jamastiene]

177. Exactly. n/t

[chrisa]

185. I'm a self-admitted nerd.

And therefore have an advanced nerd-o-meter that seeks out and identifies other nerds.

[Jamastiene]

176. Most nerds I have known have treated women with respect.

I wouldn't blame nerds for what those assholes are saying.

[hfojvt]

135. I think they hate her because she is beautiful

They want to have sex with her, and know they never can unless they force her. The fact that nobody loves them has made them so angry that they are unloveable.

Story of my life.

[seabeyond]

136. do you know, there are a lot of girls and women that dont hit ten, are not going to get attractive

men? do you know that women like attractive men as much as men like the attractive women. do you know there are a lot of girls and women that are rejected too, and are not loved.

but, i do not see this same all encompassing behavior by women.

is it because they dont have the sense of privilege that they should have a ten like the men do?

and why do men feel an innate right to that ten, henced deprived?

i am not addressing you personally. i want you to get what your heart desires. i want you to be loved and to feel good.

and i thank you for bring this post up

[redqueen]

145. They aren't raised with that sense of entitlement.

Some women may feel entitled in other ways, but not that one.

[getdown]

149. and they aren't raised to believe

that at any age, they should go for the 25 year olds or those who look 25

[hfojvt]

156. I find that very hard to believe

I have, of course, seen women rejected and picked on, but there is a certain inequality it seems to me, one that favors females in that regard.

As for the supposed privilege, it may have something to do with testosterone - a rage producing hormone. And it is not all men doing such things, but men are sorta taught to fight as well. The male world is a violent one where you might be attacked by bullies, or take part in violent sports, or be drafted into war (at least in my childhood).

[seabeyond]

161. maybe that woman that you do not see is "settling" for the less than attractive male or quietly doin

without.

[treestar]

138. So it is just her picture?

Merely because she's a cute girl?

I was wondering if there was something controversial about the book or whatever she was holding.

[seabeyond]

140. only. because. she. was. a. girl. that is it. no more. literally

period. that is it.

fully clothed. nothing provocative. no innuendo. it happens all the time on net. without the controls here, it would here too. men (SOME) men take it to the line du will allow. for no other reason but to put women in their place. privilege.

[redqueen]

146. Exactly, this happens all the time.

Merely because a woman enters a male-dominated space.

[Jim Lane]

195. I suspect cute had something to do with it.

I don't go to reddit, but my guess is that, if she were homely, those guys wouldn't have jumped in with the rape jokes. They would've jumped in with the homeliness jokes instead. "I'm glad she has a book to read on Saturday night when the other girls are out on dates" or the like.

Of course, that's just the flip side of putting women in their place -- the assumption that a woman's only relevance is her sexual attractiveness, be it high or low.

[seabeyond]

196. so, the true reality is, regardless, it is..... only cause she is a girl. one way or another. nt

[redqueen]

202. Fat, ugly, or slutty.

Those are the usual slurs that girl gamers get to deal with. (also the name of a blog about the issue)

[Marrah_G]

211. SO true

I long for the days when the boy gamers were just insistent that we didn't exist. Now they like to put us in little boxes. I have passed the fat,ugly or slutty and moved onto the "Old or MILF" level

[hfojvt]

141. there shouldn't be in a group of atheists

But maybe lots of them have not read that book either. Maybe they hate her because she is smart too.

[lapislzi]

154. Ding! A winner!

You can be pretty. You can be smart. If you are both, you are are a major threat and must be neutralized.

[getdown]

150. very insightful

and points to why distorted media imagery impacts both women and men

[redqueen]

159. This is touched on in Tough Guise

It's a documentary which examines the media's role in distorting images of masculinity.

[getdown]

169. TY RQ

i'll google it

[joeybee12]

112. Yes, but is usually a bad answer to any question...

I agree...knr

[Marrah_G]

117. Thank you for posting this

[Marrah_G]

123. Threads like these...

Make me very grateful for DU and the amazing, intelligent, articulate women who post here.

[obamanut2012]

133. I was going to post this very thing!

Terrific thread.

[frazzled]

158. Diversion and minimizing seems to be most men's way of not dealing with issues in general

If they do not want to deal with the reality of an issue, this "yes but" strategy comes into play all too often. It especially comes into play with the issue of misogyny, because they think that to do other than make exceptions or change the subject is to somehow indict themselves in the matter. This does not have to happen. We women are well aware that all men are not misogynists. But we also expect that these non-misogynist men will stand up and face the issue head on; that they will take it very seriously and not see it just as an aberration on the part of a few; that they will listen to women and try to understand what they are hearing from them.

I was almost taken aback at the list of how men change the subject that this author listed. And although it was directed at the topic of misogyny, I recognized it immediately as a modus operandi that men I have known (my father, my brother, my husband) have used often when confronted with an argument from women. Just the other day, my husband and I were engaged in a tiff about our respective work loads (and a work project that we had committed to do together, but which he has ceded mostly to me). I could have made (actually, I DID make) each of these charges the author lists, just changing the topic from "misogyny" to "my work." Here's how (my part) of the conversation went about who had less time to devote to this project that neither of us wanted to do:

* When the topic of my work comes up, and you change the subject, it trivializes my work.

* When the topic of my work comes up, and you change the subject, it conveys the message that whatever you want to talk about (or whatever work you are doing) is more important than my work.

* When the topic of my work comes up, and you change the subject to something that’s about your work, it conveys the message that you are the one who really matters, and that any harm done to your work is always more important than the harm done to my work.

I swear, that's about how the conversation went. Of course, I won in the end, and because my husband is actually an amazingly strong supporter of women, and eventually admitted (under a little duress!) that he was in the wrong, he devoted a full day and a half out of his schedule to working on the project with me that had been plaguing BOTH of our work schedules.

So men (whether you are old or young, straight or gay): when you engage in a debate with women, whether it's about the serious issues of misogyny this article raises, or if it's just about whose turn it is to take out the trash: DON'T CHANGE THE SUBJECT. You would not, in general, do this with another man; and when you do it to a woman or to women's issues, it says that you don't take it seriously, that you don't think it matters, that you just don't "want to get into it."

I realize that the disgusting, misogynist behavior displayed by the posters in this article does not apply to 99% of men. But that doesn't mean that all of the 99% of you who do not behave like that should not be speaking out forcefully here about it. That you should divert the subject by simply saying how this does not reflect you. That you should not be listening to the women's comments and trying to understand how, in big and little ways, this kind of misogyny defines the lives of your sisters, mothers, daughters.

Women's issues get very short shrift, even on a supposedly liberal board like this. It's time men took them seriously, and considered "our" issues as important as "yours." Thank you for listening!!

[Spazito]

160. This is THE best thread I have read on DU in a long time...

I just want to applaud the OP and the posters who have responded. If, after reading this thread, anyone doesn't 'get it' as to why misogyny is so offensive and, sadly, so pervasive, then they never will.

[seabeyond]

164. If, after reading this thread, anyone doesn't 'get it' as to why misogyny is so offensive

i hear ya.

[getdown]

182. and DU3

can handle it

[seabeyond]

183. yes... they just isolate the "mans" room, even though women particpate, a little more

since they cannot participate with the whole of do, we just isolate them for their play.

[getdown]

184. oh

they have a rumpus room?

[arbusto_baboso]

174. "Yes, but" is really no better than "Your side does it, too".

Not only is it almost always untrue, but it presents NO moral equivalency and does not in any way excuse reprehensible conduct and/or words.

[Jamastiene]

179. K&R

[Hatchling]

192. Nothing to add to this amazing thread but K&R.

[Mnemosyne]

194. ...

[HuckleB]

212. Kick.

[seabeyond]

213. sometimes i get a little kick

out of assumtpions i make. there could be a poster i wrangle with and spend times in certain threads that give me an impression and then, boom. i see them in a different lite. that is my experience with you. it is always fun. so thank you

[HuckleB]

214. Cheers!

Have a wonderful weekend!