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Demonaut

(8,916 posts)
Fri Jul 19, 2019, 09:13 AM Jul 2019

I'm feeling a tad optimistic, a trumpster I work with and have the deepest respect

(except for the maga thing) tried to defend trumps comment about "going back to where they came from" saying it wasn't racist, I came back with "if I said that to anyone at work I would be fired that day"...he tried to defend it with "what about free speech?"...but he knew he lost.

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I'm feeling a tad optimistic, a trumpster I work with and have the deepest respect (Original Post) Demonaut Jul 2019 OP
He knew he lost because it's indefensible... Raster Jul 2019 #1
He knows he lost because it is Federal law n/t malaise Jul 2019 #20
frankly, I don't think tRump* cares anymore... Raster Jul 2019 #42
Not the Con - the trumpster malaise Jul 2019 #44
That he still chooses to defend Trump tells me he's a lost cause. Laurian Jul 2019 #2
Most Repukes I know would defend Teflon Don, after watching him eat babies on Faux News Jeffersons Ghost Jul 2019 #4
But hey, it OK, because he made sure... 3catwoman3 Jul 2019 #28
Perhaps gratuitous Jul 2019 #25
Yeah, he may have lost that one, but Bettie Jul 2019 #3
he will, no doubt Demonaut Jul 2019 #5
On another note, don't you find it sad Bettie Jul 2019 #6
somewhat,in his unguarded moments he's a greathuman being that is allowing himself to be brainwashed Demonaut Jul 2019 #7
You know him well; do YOU consider him a racist? oldsoftie Jul 2019 #53
I find it that there is also a contingency of trump supporters Laura PourMeADrink Jul 2019 #15
My dad is a Republican! Brainfodder Jul 2019 #30
Yes, it is really sad. True Blue American Jul 2019 #39
Here's the thing- How can you know you "lost" in terms of defending trump against racism charges RAB910 Jul 2019 #8
subjective Demonaut Jul 2019 #9
I have a theory about a special type of Trump supporter RAB910 Jul 2019 #11
we all have inner demons in one form or another, trump's tapped into one of the oldest Demonaut Jul 2019 #12
K&R, they know it's racist uponit7771 Jul 2019 #10
He's knows it's racist and doesn't care. "Free speech" certainly means you can say racist things. WhiskeyGrinder Jul 2019 #13
Yes, it's the fierce backlash and growing willingness to employ consequences already in place. Kind of Blue Jul 2019 #14
That's kind of what I've noticed in others. WinstonSmith4740 Jul 2019 #16
i must admit, johnnyfins Jul 2019 #31
Nicolle said True Blue American Jul 2019 #40
I am incapable of having respect for a Magat at this point. NNadir Jul 2019 #17
me? Demonaut Jul 2019 #18
I'm assuming "you" is not YOU. Would certainly hope not. Hortensis Jul 2019 #33
It was a rhetorical gaff on my part. NNadir Jul 2019 #43
:) That's what I figured. As conservatives we know have been Hortensis Jul 2019 #45
Are you defending Trump's remarks? NNadir Jul 2019 #32
You have respect for that? ananda Jul 2019 #19
Respect??? bdamomma Jul 2019 #23
I've won many battles but never the war. They talking-liberally Jul 2019 #21
In the workplace... Zambero Jul 2019 #22
He may have lost, but you didn't win. patphil Jul 2019 #24
Be careful The Bopper Jul 2019 #26
Free speech, eh? Ask him to say "My boss sucks" dalton99a Jul 2019 #27
"Free speech" - meaning speech protected by the First Amendment - means only The Velveteen Ocelot Jul 2019 #29
this little asshole orleans Jul 2019 #34
Sorry. Duppers Jul 2019 #35
How can you have the deepest respect for him? njhoneybadger Jul 2019 #36
he's a great grandfather and husband and takes cares of his 90 year old mother Demonaut Jul 2019 #46
I would like to offer you a supportive hand to the shoulder. Collimator Jul 2019 #47
Thank you for this. masmdu Jul 2019 #49
thank you Demonaut Jul 2019 #52
Speaking as someone whose parents are hardcore conservatives who voted for Trump... Jedi Guy Jul 2019 #55
I understand your feelings. Collimator Jul 2019 #56
Misguided is a great term. stevil Jul 2019 #51
Yes it is free speech I guess titaniumsalute Jul 2019 #37
Lost JeaneRaye Jul 2019 #38
When your free speech ends with harm to others it is no longer free. gordianot Jul 2019 #41
Like modern day Germany DFW Jul 2019 #50
jeez Skittles Jul 2019 #48
One way to argue is to tell these people that from what you've seen lunatica Jul 2019 #54
assume?...lol, ye of little faith Demonaut Jul 2019 #57
So you don't have any respect for him? lunatica Jul 2019 #58
no, I thought you questioned me Demonaut Jul 2019 #60
No, I was assuming that to tell him that you lunatica Jul 2019 #61
np, he is the rock of Gibraltar but I may open his heart, I think he wants to but it will be slow Demonaut Jul 2019 #62
He sounds like he's worth it. lunatica Jul 2019 #63
I won't by that won't stop me from trying Demonaut Jul 2019 #64
Perfect reply! That's the kind of thing I come up with at 3 a.m..... nt LAS14 Jul 2019 #59

Raster

(20,998 posts)
1. He knew he lost because it's indefensible...
Fri Jul 19, 2019, 09:16 AM
Jul 2019

...if you support tRump* and his racist policies and actions, YOU. ARE. A. RACIST.

Raster

(20,998 posts)
42. frankly, I don't think tRump* cares anymore...
Fri Jul 19, 2019, 01:31 PM
Jul 2019

...he seems to get away with whatever he does with no seeming consequences.

malaise

(269,004 posts)
44. Not the Con - the trumpster
Fri Jul 19, 2019, 02:08 PM
Jul 2019

The Con thinks the rule of law does not apply to him and I can't blame him - he's been given a pass all his effin' life.

Jeffersons Ghost

(15,235 posts)
4. Most Repukes I know would defend Teflon Don, after watching him eat babies on Faux News
Fri Jul 19, 2019, 09:39 AM
Jul 2019

And they would blame Democrats in the House for inducing his appetite for devouring human children.

gratuitous

(82,849 posts)
25. Perhaps
Fri Jul 19, 2019, 11:19 AM
Jul 2019

But you know how sometimes you get introduced to a new word, and it seems like you see it everywhere in the next week or so? Maybe this guy had a new idea introduced into his rusty old brain, and with a little prompting, he might very well start seeing Trump's racism where he didn't before. It's a good reason to stay engaged with folks you disagree with if you're otherwise on civil terms (as the original post implies).

Bettie

(16,109 posts)
6. On another note, don't you find it sad
Fri Jul 19, 2019, 09:49 AM
Jul 2019

that people who you thought were decent, respectable people have torn off the masks they used to wear to show us who they really are at their core?

There are people in my life who I really liked, who seemed to be decent, but have turned out to be fervent MAGATs and have shown their racism openly and without shame, as if they were just waiting for it to be socially acceptable?

There are so many people I can never trust again.

Demonaut

(8,916 posts)
7. somewhat,in his unguarded moments he's a greathuman being that is allowing himself to be brainwashed
Fri Jul 19, 2019, 09:55 AM
Jul 2019
 

Laura PourMeADrink

(42,770 posts)
15. I find it that there is also a contingency of trump supporters
Fri Jul 19, 2019, 10:39 AM
Jul 2019

who are completely non-political. Don't even watch the news. They don't pay attention to any of his BS. all they care about is that they and their families and friends have jobs. They are not the rabid racist types. I think those are the ones we need to figure out a way to connect with.

But I am getting more and more demoralized. Never ever before has there been such an opponent with a zillion pieces of baggage. Yet our side just seems to wade in it. We need some savvy and we need it fast.

Brainfodder

(6,423 posts)
30. My dad is a Republican!
Fri Jul 19, 2019, 11:30 AM
Jul 2019

BUT.....

He's over 80, and is one of those who believes what party leaders push.

He emails politic stuff so I know have far OFF he is.

It's real bad.

He has a PhD, he shouldn't be this unflappably gullible; too trusting of leaders, that's got to be it.

He doesn't budge from it, no matter what I've said, he's baked in.








True Blue American

(17,984 posts)
39. Yes, it is really sad.
Fri Jul 19, 2019, 12:12 PM
Jul 2019

People used to disagree on Politics, but not any more. Trump and his enablers have turned it into a hate fest. Congressional Republicans have joined that hate wagon.

You have to be so careful what you say to keep peace.

RAB910

(3,501 posts)
8. Here's the thing- How can you know you "lost" in terms of defending trump against racism charges
Fri Jul 19, 2019, 09:56 AM
Jul 2019

And still support him, if you are a good person worthy of respect?

RAB910

(3,501 posts)
11. I have a theory about a special type of Trump supporter
Fri Jul 19, 2019, 10:03 AM
Jul 2019

There isn't many of this type but I have seen them.

I call them the Bruce Banners. The Bruce Banners seem like good people. You find in their interactions that they are thoughtful and respectful and generally nice.

However, they have a darker side that they hide. Trump is their hulk-like rage monster. Through Trump, they can release their inner demons.

Demonaut

(8,916 posts)
12. we all have inner demons in one form or another, trump's tapped into one of the oldest
Fri Jul 19, 2019, 10:06 AM
Jul 2019

in our species, fear of the "other"

WhiskeyGrinder

(22,345 posts)
13. He's knows it's racist and doesn't care. "Free speech" certainly means you can say racist things.
Fri Jul 19, 2019, 10:07 AM
Jul 2019

Depending on the context, though, there are going to be consequences.

Kind of Blue

(8,709 posts)
14. Yes, it's the fierce backlash and growing willingness to employ consequences already in place.
Fri Jul 19, 2019, 10:34 AM
Jul 2019

That's why I think he knew he lost.

Good going!

WinstonSmith4740

(3,056 posts)
16. That's kind of what I've noticed in others.
Fri Jul 19, 2019, 10:49 AM
Jul 2019

The Trumpists I know have been very, very quiet lately. Almost nothing on Facebook, don't bring him up in conversations, don't really put up a strong defense of him when he does come up, that sort of thing. In fact the only thing any of them have posted up was a clip from years ago of Obama talking about how we needed strong borders, if people are here illegally we'll deport them, that whole thing. For some reason, they felt this somehow validated them, and proved Obama was lying, because Trump told them that Democrats want open borders and they believe him, not their own eyes and ears. I pointed out the obvious. The response initially was crickets, then he took it down.

My experience has been that people can admit they made a mistake. It's tough admitting you were conned. We all know about the "fatigue factor" in fighting him. It may just be setting in with some of his voters about supporting him.

johnnyfins

(823 posts)
31. i must admit,
Fri Jul 19, 2019, 11:31 AM
Jul 2019

I almost fell for the Sunkist Balloon's con. I thought he was cutting through the bullshit in politics, in the beginning. Then I realized he was using a sharpened turd.

NNadir

(33,520 posts)
17. I am incapable of having respect for a Magat at this point.
Fri Jul 19, 2019, 10:50 AM
Jul 2019

If you try to defend this you ARE a racist, pure and simple.

NNadir

(33,520 posts)
43. It was a rhetorical gaff on my part.
Fri Jul 19, 2019, 02:07 PM
Jul 2019

I am a little slow and failed to catch my rhetorical mistake in utilizing the rhetorical "you" instead of the better locution "one" instead of "you."

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
45. :) That's what I figured. As conservatives we know have been
Fri Jul 19, 2019, 04:52 PM
Jul 2019

supporting and endorsing the behaviors of increasingly very bad leaders, becoming in the process increasingly politically corrupted and cruel themselves, I'm far less able to separate out and respect their good facets for themselves.

When a neighbor's grandchildren ran squealing to jump on her the other day, I couldn't laugh and appreciate what a good grandmother she was, as I once did, because it of course reminded me of other children crying helplessly in detention camps. I know she and her husband still support him, and that can't be set aside.

NNadir

(33,520 posts)
32. Are you defending Trump's remarks?
Fri Jul 19, 2019, 11:33 AM
Jul 2019

I don't think you are. I am speaking about the Magat to whom you referred.

I can't of course tell you who to respect, but I could not do what you say you do, respect one.

At this point, it's ratcheted into Klan stuff.

I understand that one may need to work with such a person for economic reasons, but personally I have worked with and even for people I don't respect.

21. I've won many battles but never the war. They
Fri Jul 19, 2019, 11:04 AM
Jul 2019

never change, never give up.

We can't change the bad guys. We can only get the good guys more motivated.

Zambero

(8,964 posts)
22. In the workplace...
Fri Jul 19, 2019, 11:15 AM
Jul 2019

unbridled free speech often comes with the consequence of having an employer terminating said employee for exercising that right. Yes, your co-worker lost that one.

patphil

(6,176 posts)
24. He may have lost, but you didn't win.
Fri Jul 19, 2019, 11:17 AM
Jul 2019

Trump supporters, in general, are not interested in logic or reason.
They operate at a more basic, irrational level where their beliefs are irrefutable and no amount of intelligent discourse can sway them.
Fundamentally, they don't care if they're right or wrong.
It's a matter of belief, and belief will always "trump" factual evidence.
Even long held religious tenants fall before their irrational love of the Trump "doctrine".

That person knows he is wrong, but just doesn't care. Trump is his god, and everything else is irrelevant.

Patrick Phillips

The Bopper

(185 posts)
26. Be careful
Fri Jul 19, 2019, 11:20 AM
Jul 2019

Being a little obvious here. It’s only illegal or improper because a judge ruled that way. The way Trumpolini is appointing judges, even that rule can be changed at the sweep of a pen.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,693 posts)
29. "Free speech" - meaning speech protected by the First Amendment - means only
Fri Jul 19, 2019, 11:28 AM
Jul 2019

that the government can't restrict your speech (except in a few very narrow circumstances). Your private employer isn't bound by that and certainly can restrict your speech when you're at work or when you use social media or speak in public in a way that reflects poorly on the employer.

Duppers

(28,120 posts)
35. Sorry.
Fri Jul 19, 2019, 12:01 PM
Jul 2019

You lost me at "deepest respect" since in my opinion, tRumpsters and respect don't belong in the same sentence. Sorry.

Demonaut

(8,916 posts)
46. he's a great grandfather and husband and takes cares of his 90 year old mother
Fri Jul 19, 2019, 09:50 PM
Jul 2019

when I was new at my job he trained me when it cost him money, it wasn't his company, he was drone just like me, the magat turn is incomprehensible to me, we've all seen it in people we know and he's the only trumpster I chat with, the others are stupid, lazy and too self centered

We have to understand that not all trumpsters are evil, some are misguided and/or a result of their environment
sorry, some of you are absolutists but I consider that too narrow minded.

Collimator

(1,639 posts)
47. I would like to offer you a supportive hand to the shoulder.
Sat Jul 20, 2019, 02:17 PM
Jul 2019

What you have to say about your Trump-voting friend may not be popular here, but it needs to be said.

One of the most awful aspects of the whole Trumpist mind set is the division of human beings into "us" and "others". It is, as some have pointed out, a primal thought-process based on fear and it is so, so easy to sink into.

Right now, we here in this forum are banded together as an "us" who oppose Trump. Some of us have gone farther to paint anyone and everyone who has ever supported Trump with a broad brush of paint that covers all those human beings in a thick layer of disgust.

The painful fact is that decent human beings can have ugly aspects to their personalities. Furthermore, there are those who are deeply ugly in their souls who manage a veneer of approved political ideas when in the appropriate company.

I have family members who voted for Trump. Every once in a while, I would hear ugly epithets and truly stupid ideas coming out of their mouths. That doesn't change the fact that they are hard-working, giving people.

The problem is that they are convinced that they (and others just like them) are the only hard-working people around. And their generous, giving natures are limited to what they perceive as their own kind.

Without going into details here, I have some insight into the insecurities and inner pain that fuels their prejudices. I am not an expert on what it takes to affect real change in people, (I'm still working on myself.) but it can happen.

I had heard my mother use the N-word on the rare occasion while growing up. Three months before she died I heard her say that the newly-elected Obama sounded "wise", further noting that he "was going to be fair."

The two family members to whom I referred earlier have become grandparents to an adopted mixed race child. If they were truly deplorable and unredeemable, they would have refused to accept or even acknowledge this child as a member of their family.

It may not be much, but I have a feeling that the next time the one of them who uses the N-word may be met with some censure from the other. "That's our little Suzie you could be referring to," might be the thought that crosses her partner's mind.

Yes, it's pretty annoying that some people don't open their eyes unless a given problem starts to hit pretty damn close to home. Unfortunately, a lot of the human race is that way.

In the meantime, I suggest we look to a very wise man and remember to be fair. We can disagree with people vehemently and oppose their positions at every turn. We cannot, however, take a page from their own playbook and declare anyone who thinks differently than us as a worthless, monstrous "other" whose presence must be eradicated.

We must teach where we can, censure when necessary and work towards legislation that furthers the vision set forth in our founding documents--no matter how flawed the writers of those documents may have been.

Sometimes I want to cry when I hear or see my family members saying or doing something kind and thoughtful. I juxtapose that against other things I hear coming out of their mouths and I don't understand how they can miss the disconnect. Alas, human beings are complicated--as is life, politics and government.

One of the worst problems about our opposition is how simplistic their thinking can be. That's one of the main reasons that they follow the lead of such a simple, shallow man. They want things easy. But it is never easy to love complicated, mixed up people. That's the lesson I keep learning when I look at my country, my family and myself.

masmdu

(2,536 posts)
49. Thank you for this.
Sat Jul 20, 2019, 09:33 PM
Jul 2019

Perhaps you can express this sentiment as an OP. I think many at DU would benefit.

Jedi Guy

(3,191 posts)
55. Speaking as someone whose parents are hardcore conservatives who voted for Trump...
Sun Jul 21, 2019, 08:02 PM
Jul 2019

I see exactly where you're coming from. I know I don't have an objective view of my parents, but I do know them to be hard-working, kindhearted people. I know they're not racists. They give freely to charity, they volunteer in their church community and their secular community. I know they're not monsters. But I also know that they voted for one. It's a hard pill to swallow.

I believe absolutely that you mean well with your post. I also don't believe most here on DU will consider your viewpoint. Sometimes it's disheartening to read posts on this forum, particularly the ones that drip with hatred towards those who don't think like we do, or those that use dehumanizing language towards those who don't think like we do. I don't think more hatred is going to solve anything, but that seems to be where we're going, unfortunately.

Collimator

(1,639 posts)
56. I understand your feelings.
Sun Jul 21, 2019, 08:15 PM
Jul 2019

I would politely describe my parents as "not very enlightened". Othertimes I would say that they were a product of their generation, but at least they didn't have white sheets hanging in the back of their closet.

When they were still alive I used to make a joke about bringing home a young woman from my college to meet them. She happens to be straight, as I am. She is also Jewish because her mother is Jewish and she was raised in that religion. Her father is African-American, and by basic visual standards, she looks black.

I would mimic bringing her to meet my parents by putting an arm around her imaginary shouder and saying, "Mom, Dad, what do you think? She's Black, she's Jewish and she's mine." When people chuckled, I pointed out that I could get away with murder in that case, " 'Cause nobody can convict you of killing your parents with a Black, Jewish Lesbian."

stevil

(1,537 posts)
51. Misguided is a great term.
Sun Jul 21, 2019, 12:54 PM
Jul 2019

You have a great attitude. I used to have three hour conversations about politics with a friend who was fiscally conservative. We always agreed to disagree and kept the conversation civil. Nothing wrong with that.

titaniumsalute

(4,742 posts)
37. Yes it is free speech I guess
Fri Jul 19, 2019, 12:08 PM
Jul 2019

But that doesn't make it right. I use that line a lot. And when you're at work you are not protected by the 1st amendment free speech. You represent a company poorly with your speech and you can easily be fired.

gordianot

(15,238 posts)
41. When your free speech ends with harm to others it is no longer free.
Fri Jul 19, 2019, 12:16 PM
Jul 2019

Palin was really shaky when her free speech target ended up getting shot. There is a difference in free speech and getting off “free” of consequences for your actions.

DFW

(54,384 posts)
50. Like modern day Germany
Sun Jul 21, 2019, 11:53 AM
Jul 2019

They have free speech protection, too.

Still, make a public speech praising Hitler, wave a flag with a swastika in public, or claim openly that the Holocaust never happened, and you're looking at jail time, something you don't always get in Germany even for aggravated assault and robbery.

Skittles

(153,160 posts)
48. jeez
Sat Jul 20, 2019, 07:43 PM
Jul 2019

when he said WHAT ABOUT FREE SPEECH you should have asked him why Trump thinks they should leave the country for speaking out

MAGAts are fucking hypocrites

lunatica

(53,410 posts)
54. One way to argue is to tell these people that from what you've seen
Sun Jul 21, 2019, 07:50 PM
Jul 2019

Of their actions, what you know of them after years of working with them that it is shocking to see them defending racism, mysoginy, brown children, or whatever the latest Trump target is.

Be shocked by their actions, not Trump’s. Tell them you expect that shit from Trump, but not them.

I assume you would be telling the truth.

Give them a chance to back away from Trump. To take a look at themselves as they are seen by people who had respected them.

lunatica

(53,410 posts)
61. No, I was assuming that to tell him that you
Sun Jul 21, 2019, 10:27 PM
Jul 2019

felt respect for him would be the truth.

Sorry! I see why it may have sounded like I was questioning you!

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