Forced penetration: If a woman forces a man to have sex, is that rape?

[sl8]

From https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-49057533

Forced penetration: If a woman forces a man to have sex, is that rape?

By Katie Silver
BBC News
25 July 2019

When a man has penetrative sex with a woman without her consent, that's rape. But what if a woman makes a man have penetrative sex with her, without his consent? That's not rape under the law of England and Wales, but the author of a new study of the phenomenon says perhaps it should be.

Some readers will find this story disturbing

Dr Siobhan Weare of Lancaster University Law School carried out the first research into forced penetration in the UK in 2016-7, gathering information from more than 200 men via an online survey.

Her latest study, published this week - based on one-to-one interviews with 30 men between May 2018 and July 2019 - explores in greater detail the context in which forced penetration occurs, its consequences, and the response of the criminal justice system.

All the participants were anonymised, but I will call one of them John.

[...]

More at link.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

1. Holy shit, England and Wales should definitely update that law.

[Bettie]

2. Yes...

it is rape.

[JI7]

3. YES, forced/without consent is RAPE

[Igel]

23. So if the man has been drinking,

can he consent?

[Ilsa]

4. Duh, yes, it is rape. nt

[samnsara]

5. yes of course it is

[Farmer-Rick]

6. Yes, I'll never forget how my uncle bragged about having sex

with a 30 year old woman at the age of 14. I explained that was child sexual abuse. He kind of shrugged.

This idea that boys and men can't be raped through forced penetration clears the way for child sexual abuse.

[Lotusflower70]

7. I know right

It's a horrible double standard. It's a fantasy in porn that is perpetuated in real life. It's mind boggling how some people don't see the abuse of power or victimization there.

[Lotusflower70]

8. That's disturbing

It is rape and they need to update the law. There are people that think that a woman can't force a man to have sex with her.

[zanana1]

9. Please explain to me how a man can be "forced" to have sex.

He has the instrument to penetrate. If we're talking about gay sex, I understand, but male-female? I don't get it.

[DetlefK]

11. Imagine being kissed by a woman you really don't want to be kissed by.

And then imagine it's more than kissing.

[zanana1]

12. Talk to me like I'm a six year old, please. nt

[TreasonousBastard]

16. The obvious one is the threat of, or actual, violence. Then, there's drugs...

and alcohol. And psychological forcing. And fondling...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_of_males

[Recursion]

26. And emotional coercion. And financial coercion. And social coercion. And physical coercion. And...

No need for oppression olympics, people: there's enough coercive sex to go around, unfortunately.

[albacore]

39. Erections can be psychogenic... thinking about sex...

..but they also can be physiogenic. Stimulation can bring them on. If it's unwanted stimulation... that's rape, in an of itself.

[lame54]

43. Do you need to go boom boom?

[WhiskeyGrinder]

14. Anyone can have a physical response without an emotional response.

A man can get hard and be enveloped by body parts against his will.

[MicaelS]

19. We males do NOT have voluntary control..

Over our erections. In case you did not know.

[GulfCoast66]

35. Do you remember being 14? Not much control then.

[MicaelS]

36. You're right abou that.

Erections at the most inopportune time. Like when you have to stand in front of the whole class.

[OneBro]

21. Think "lack of consent"

Force is evidence of a lack of consent, but lack of consent can exist without force.

First example: Man and Woman have consensual sex after agreeing that it’s safe sex with condoms or no sex. The next morning, he’s thoroughly exhausted and she’s ready for round 6 and wakes him with oral sex. He sorta wakes and is thinking that in a sane world every morning would start with a wake-up bj instead of alarm clocks. She climbs on top and starts riding without a condom. He suddenly realizes she has mounted him without a condo and jolts fully awake, furious. Under the circumstances, the moment she had unprotected sex with him, the sex became non-consensual. (Same as when a man secretly removes the condom during sex.)

Example 2: It’s dark, she goes to the restroom and secretly sends her friend into the room where he is waiting to continue their playtime. His consent was for sex with her, not for unknowingly having sex with her friend.

[Recursion]

25. Ugh. Please don't say that around male survivors of sexual abuse

Seriously, just don't. That's the entire 1950s stereotype that keeps men from talking about abuse.

[milestogo]

28. Imagine two women pushing a man down and tying him to incapacitate him.

Then they take turns having sex on top of him. Just because he has an external sex organ doesn't mean he can't be raped.

Another story: A gay man and a heterosexual woman are friends. A third party who is homophobic forces the woman to perform oral sex on the gay man at gunpoint. In fear of being shot, they perform the act while he masturbates. Both have been raped and feel humiliated.

These are true stories.

[Jose Garcia]

30. A man can have an erection when he is unconscious

[NewJeffCT]

37. Imagine you're a guy that is a deep sleeper or passed out

and you experience "morning wood" while lying on your back- your wife, girlfriend, mistress, the woman you met last night or whatever - then decides that she wants to have sex with you while you're still sleeping or passed out. Seems pretty easy for her to slip your penis inside of her.

While I doubt a guy can climax without waking up, the initial penetration can happen.

[zanana1]

46. Then how can he know he's been raped? nt

[Hav]

53. How is that relevant to the question of this thread?

I'm not sure where you are coming from but it seems a bit strange.

[NewJeffCT]

57. waking up

if you were asleep and woke up to a woman on top of you having sex with you, it would be rather startling

[demosincebirth]

52. I can't imagine it either.

[Hav]

54. Maybe take a minute to read the linked article? n/t

[demosincebirth]

62. I read it and now I say, impossible

[Hav]

63. That's odd because the article clearly details how it's possible

That is unless you call the guys detailing the abuse they suffered liars.
Ironically, the article also mentions the myths and disbeliefs connected with this issue.

[demosincebirth]

69. No man can be forced to get an erection if he does not

Want to.

[Hav]

70. But that response kind of just proves that you either didn't read the article

or you accuse them of making up the abuse.
Also, ask any man about the claim you just made. If you believe what you just said, I can see where you are coming from. But you are absolutely, 100% wrong about that. It's just plain wrong.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

72. This is not true. Physiological reactions can happen despite a person's emotion.

Your opinion is highly damaging to people who have physiological reactions during sexual assault, implying that they in some way enjoy or want it.

Crying when you cut onions doesn't mean you're sad. Laughing when someone tickles you doesn't mean you're happy. Getting hard when someone assaults you doesn't mean you want to.

[Codeine]

75. That's literally the stupidest motherfucking post

I’ve ever seen at DU, and I was here for the moon bombing threads and omega minimo.

[demosincebirth]

78. Good choice of words.

[NutmegYankee]

79. Men get erections every 90 minutes in their sleep.

It’s part of REM sleep.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

66. This opinion does real damage to victims.

[LanternWaste]

80. Can you support your most emphatic conclusion with objective evidence?

[ProudLib72]

58. From the article

Not long after that she became pregnant, and the violence abated. But a few months after the baby was born, John again woke one night to discover that he was being handcuffed to the bed.

Then, he says, his partner force-fed him Viagra and gagged him.

"There was nothing I could do about it," he says.

[Ms. Toad]

64. Viagra, for one means.

But the "instrument," also often responst to physical stimulation even when there is no emotional desire.
Not to mention that many men I've been around wake up with an involuntary erection

[Oneironaut]

67. Someone can be semi-conscious / drunk

[DetlefK]

10. Yes. Because rape is not about the act of coitus.

Rape is about violation and dominance, not about who put what in where.

[zanana1]

13. Technically, rape is about penile penetration. nt

[WhiskeyGrinder]

15. The "technical" definition of rape varies widely by jurisdiction, social attitudes and culture.

[jberryhill]

29. Yep. It's whatever the statute of the jurisdiction defines it to be

If people want to argue about what some colloquial definition should be, that's one thing.

But having a conversation about "what is rape" among persons in different jurisdictions is a waste of time.

[MicaelS]

20. So if a woman is forcibly penetrated..

By an object other than a penis it is not rape?

[Igel]

27. It's an argument about definitions.

There is no one, divinely revealed definition.

Forcible penetration with an object used to be called "forcible penetration with an object." Rape used to have to involve a penis. Not a tongue. Not a finger. Not some other object.

The newer definition hasn't actually fully propagated through the entire linguistic community, which has led to a lot of dissent, confusion, and arguments. Mostly because some people decided to "divinely reveal" the "one true definition" and tried to forcibly change the language to suit their wishes.

Some act as though not adopting the new, required definition is a deeply anti-social, misogynistic act, as though not calling a reprehensible act by the worst possible, newly approved designation is to defend it and even promote it. That kind of agitprop is simply grasping for power.

It's a very French or Russian way of doing things, very top-down, authoritarian-based. Not so much the way that Anglophone societies have dealt with language, which is that you may have a definition good for a cant or jargon, but you don't try to dictate and coerce the community of speakers. Even prescriptivism has had its problems, as much ignored in practice and colloquial registers as enforced in academic and formal registers.

[MicaelS]

33. Very good post.

Your position makes more sense than mine. Thank you.

[Tarc]

17. Reeks of MRA activism, honestly

[WhiskeyGrinder]

18. How so?

[hughee99]

24. MRA activism? Which one is pushing the MRA talking points?

Is it the author, Katie Silver, or the woman who conducted the study, Dr. Siobhan Weare? Do you really think it’s “MRA activism” to suggest that men should be protected by the law from unwanted sex?

[Tarc]

38. It is a statistical irrelevance

[hughee99]

40. How often does something have to occur in order to be considered a crime? Nt

[WhiskeyGrinder]

49. Not to the people it happens to.

[Ms. Toad]

65. So if, for example, murder became so rare as to be statistically irrelevant,

You would argue we should no longer treat it as a crime?

[Tarc]

68. Whataboutism

[Ms. Toad]

71. Nope.

Just applying the guideline you set out for what should be considered a crime.

[Tarc]

74. Yep

[MineralMan]

22. Yes, of course it is.

I'm sure it's far more rare than women being raped by men, though. Still, if coercion is involved or consent is not given, it's rape.

[SlogginThroughIt]

31. How is this even a question?

[MuseRider]

32. Of course it should be.

Any sex that you do not willingly participate in is rape or sexual harassment. I don't care who is doing the forcing, this should be a no brainer. I don't think it happens to men as much but I do not know the statistics and I think the assumption, wrong assumption, is that any man would be thrilled. I mean, for years we heard stuff like that. Time to update. I would be interested in the statistics on this, especially how the police have reacted to this.

[Backseat Driver]

34. While we're at it, let's talk about the man whose

"not tonight dear, I have a headache" behavior for years at a time who purports to the world of being in a consentual "loving" relationship because "it's not all about sex (intercourse)" and who has no reasonable explanation for lack of engagement? Is that not also abuse (power and dominance over) of the female partner that might precipitate anger sufficient for retaliatory forceful means or scenarios of coercion?

[Caliman73]

42. Is that a serious post?

Not sure what exactly the point of the post is but I am addressing it as if it were serious.


It is a ridiculous argument from any perspective. If there is a lack of sexual intimacy in a relationship that was otherwise engaging in sexual intimacy regularly, then reasons for the lack must be explored. Each partner has the ability to ask, to state their problem with the situation, and to have expectations about how the issue will resolve. If the issue is significant enough that it threatens the relationship, then that has to be addressed and if it should be a factor in the termination of the relationship then again, each partner has the right to make a determination.

It is not abusive to not want to have sex. It is not abusive to want to have sex. It is abusive in either direction to intentionally withhold sex for the purpose of control or punishment. It is rape, or sexual assault in either direction to force or coerce emotionally or any other way, a person to have sex.

[Codeine]

44. Is that just a tremendously poorly-presented joke?

Because if not, damn.

[silentEcho]

45. Sounds like creating an excuse for rape. It is still rape.

[borgesian]

47. It's pretty creepy that this is actually a "debate."

Yes, I'm sure this particular form of rape is relatively rare, but that does not excuse it. This isn't very hard, people. Jesus...

[ellie]

48. Yes

[KentuckyWoman]

50. Yes

How is this even a question?

[stonecutter357]

51. yes

[Iggo]

55. When anyone forces anyone to have sex, it's rape.

Not a hard concept.

[lunatica]

56. This is a fascinating thread!

And, I might add, quite educational. My first thought on this subject was the stereotypical reaction, but the DUers who explained various scenarios and the article have been quite educational. I’m glad I read it!

[ProudLib72]

59. This is from the article

Not long after that she became pregnant, and the violence abated. But a few months after the baby was born, John again woke one night to discover that he was being handcuffed to the bed.

Then, he says, his partner force-fed him Viagra and gagged him.

"There was nothing I could do about it," he says.

I don't see how that's any different than a man putting roofies into a woman's drink.

[lunatica]

60. I don't either.

The wife was obviously a spousal abuser. Bullying is abuse. Period. I hope he eventually got a divorce.

[ProudLib72]

61. In the article he says he ran away

I'm not sure what that means exactly. He said he was tied financially to the relationship and didn't feel like he could get out.

I can't imagine being in that sort of situation. I think I would have to tell the authorities, get an attorney, pack up the kids and leave. Still, it was his wife, someone he loved and trusted!

[Takket]

73. Yes. Nothing to really debate here

[RandySF]

76. Yes

Though I am sure it's rare outside of statutory rape.

[StarfishSaver]

77. This .at be off-topic, but a friend and I had a conversation about "Handmaid's Tale"

SPOILER ALERT

In the last episode, some of the commanders were suspicious of Commander Lawrence's failure to impregnate any of his handmaid's. So they arranged to "bear witness" to the "ceremony" (i.e., the ritual rape of the handmade). They didn't actually watch but waited in the living room and sent a doctor in to examine June afterward to confirm that the act had been completed.

Lawrence was horrified and didn't want to do it. His wife was completely traumatized. But June talked him into doing it because otherwise they'd end up "on the wall" (i.e., publicly hanged).

June was clearly raped, without question.

But was Commander Lawrence also raped - in that he was forced to have sex against his will under threat is death?

And if he was actually raped, is this a rare instance of a rape victim actually being responsible for his rape since he was the architect of the system that required the rape of handmaids by the commanders (although he felt morally superior to the other commanders because he didn't previously participate in the rapes)?

What say you?