Question for religious DUers: do you believe prayers help after these mass shootings?

[stopbush]

If so, how?

TIA.

[Hoyt]

1. Most of the prayers come from gun-humpers, praying this is not the incident

that leads to tough gun control. Of course, most of them claim to be religious.

Good question.

[BlueTexasMan]

2. Yes

If nothing else, it fixes an idea in your mind, perhaps leading to further action and discussion. Who's to say that focused mental energy from groups of people have no effect in our vast universe. Atheists have no songs.

[A HERETIC I AM]

3. "Atheists have no songs."

Ummmm.....What?

I.......err....

Damn.


Incredible.

[Control-Z]

4. You saved me from writing what would have been an awful reply.

Thank you. I couldn't agree with you more.

[HAB911]

23. +++++++++++

[BluesRunTheGame]

34. It's a song

[lindysalsagal]

36. Do Beatles count?

[stopbush]

5. Oh, I think it's safe to say that IF focused mental energy from a group of people

could effect anything in the universe outside of a sense of self aggrandizement, that it sure as shit wouldn’t be a group of fear-besotted Christians singing their wonderful songs like “Onward Christian soldiers, marching as to war, with the cross of Jesus going on before” doing the effecting.

[Backseat Driver]

58. That hymn always bothered me...

as I grew up in the Christian faith. I've had "bad dreams" as my neurons filed my experience, learning, and unconscious brain functions and irregularities, yet we don't know exactly how to completely explain the dynamics of consciousness. There are rebel physicists who have hypotheses; experiments are still really hard to measure and replicate outcomes, but these experiments do follow a scientific rather than religious experience. TPTB call these scientists quacks, but who is to say that however one choses to focus individual energy through prayer, meditation, yoga, et al, can't change the whole of human planetary experience, even without an ideation of a Higher Power (GOD). I don't claim to know the answers, but am quite sure that organized "religious" fundamentalist organizations have and continue to exhibit plenty of tyrannical hypocrisy. Clearly there are consequences of actions, personal or otherwise. Choosing a path of personal prayer is only one way to direct energy toward personal control of self to manage community relations as a part of the human race...and I don't know what scientific rational truths are yet to be realized. I'm pretty much tolerant of whatever personal method one uses to effect a more peaceful, healthy planet and the opportunity for loving relationships. YHEMV (Your human experience may vary), of course.

[Progressive Jones]

8. That doesn't appear to be working. How long until it will work? nt

[safeinOhio]

9. John Lennon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4&v=DU7g1_ifLN4

[Arkansas Granny]

13. Your last remark is, at the very least, insensitive and offensive.

[KG]

14. I LOL'd

[Lars39]

18. Leaving it to God's will is teaching learned helplessness

[PJMcK]

20. Let us know when the thoughts and prayers take effect, okay?

In the meantime, what the hell does your last sentence even mean?

[HAB911]

25. It has been clinically proven

masturbation is much more effective than prayer in these instances.

[A HERETIC I AM]

26. ROFL!

At LEAST!!

[lindysalsagal]

37. Not to mention a good whiskey.

[Moostache]

28. "Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord.."

"He hath loosed the fateful lightning of his terrible swift sword..."

Yeah, THAT is some helpful fucking song right there...

1) There is no god.
2) Praying = vainly talking to one's self
3) from 1 and 2, "prayer" is useless self-vanity in the face of horror

You know what DOES help? Blood donations, food for the grieving, hugs for the afflicted...

You want to help? GREAT...do so.
You want to feel better about your invisible friend? Tomorrow will still be there for that...

[lindysalsagal]

38. +1000.

[rzemanfl]

30. Gotta wash socks. BBL.

[Blue_true]

33. Who do you sing to?

The god that guided the mind and hand of the shooter or the god that is supposed to fix broken people who have lost relatives in such a horrible way?

[jberryhill]

52. Atheists have no songs?

Wtf?

Where did you pick up that particular piece of idiocy?

[treestar]

54. I kind of see what you are getting at

I don't get the ridicule rather than explaining or admitting at least that if you don't believe in a god, you won't pray and that mental energy is not there, or at least arguing it does not exist anyway. Admit atheism does not have organization or togetherness on its own, or explain where there are atheist groups who might find a way to do some good.

[lunatica]

6. It sounds like a gotcha question.

[Raine]

7. If people believe it helps

I'm not going to tell them otherwise. If they believe it helps it probably does, mental attitude can make a difference in overcoming difficult and traumatic situations.

[treestar]

55. I think you nailed it

or it just tells people that though they can't do anything about it, they are at least paying attention and thinking about what happened to the person.

[backtoblue]

10. I send out well meaning thoughts

And try to will the Universe, god, whatever entity whom may or may not exist to hear my pleas.

Who knows if it works. It doesn't hurt me or take much energy for me to do this, so, hell, why not

[Mariana]

48. It doesn't take much energy for me to do this...

Ain't that the truth!

[jberryhill]

53. Yes, but you get the feeling of having done something

It’s the ultimate in “Let’s not and say we did.”

[musicblind]

11. This sounds an insincere set-up, but I'll try and answer as if it were sincere.

As a Christian, I do not believe praying promises help, but I do believe praying helps more than not praying.

I believe positive energy might expedite healing. I believe knowing someone cares about a loss might help someone process that loss, and I believe prayers allow the pray-er to better deal with their own mental inconsistencies, strife, and anguish.

Christians who pray after mass shootings are praying that the survivors heal quickly, that those who suffered loss find ways to process their grief, and that those who suffered trauma find easy ways through dark days.

Praying does not exclude doing. You can pray for something to happen while getting off your ass and working to make it happen. You can chew gum and walk at the same time.

I've written a 83,000 word book on school shootings, I have phone banked, donated money, and protested... and I still pray because prayers are a part of my religion and my life. I pray for all kinds of things, sick family members, a friend looking for a job, help with financial difficulty, and even love.

I cannot draw a diagram explaining how prayer works because religion is not a demonstrable science. Religion is personal, spiritual, and unprovable. That is why I do not ask others to believe what I believe. Most Christians don't. Many think of Christians that way only because the loud obnoxious voices stand out.

The reason this feels like a 'gotcha' question is because you know religion cannot be scientifically proven, and so it feels like you are simply calling someone to the front of the class because they make easy pickings to shove to the ground.

[Kid Berwyn]

22. Thank you.

The fact we exist should be proof enough, but some refuse to believe their own eyes.

[USALiberal]

47. Existing means there is a God??? nt

[Kid Berwyn]

50. No.

One has to reach that understanding.

Crazy, huh?

[aka-chmeee]

31. I can conceive that prayer may help.

But only help the one praying think he is actually doing something helpful. I cannot imagine any benefit to victims of shootings, disease or any other human misfortune. It's just an exit line.

[treestar]

57. some might feel better knowing someone else

cares, or acknowledges, or paid attention to what happened, even if they aren't in a place to concretely do anything. That's why they tell the person they are thinking/praying. Otherwise, it would be best to do so without saying anything - I seem to recall in the New Testament something about not showing off.

[jberryhill]

60. Or, their loved one was also injured and died

Last edited Mon Sep 2, 2019, 01:14 PM - Edit history (1)

...leaving then to wonder why God didn’t care about the ones who didn’t survive.

After a mass disaster, the media will always find someone going on about how “We prayed hard and God got us through this” virtually next door to people whose loved ones are dead.

There was a bus crash a while back that killed a bunch of high school students, and the parents of a survivor were expressing how grateful they were to God at the same location with parents of the dead teens whom God didn’t love enough.

It’s a real “fuck you” to the grieving - “God saved ours, but not yours.” God answered their prayers, not yours. God loves them, not you.

I always think about how his family felt when Lazarus died the second time - as did everyone Jesus healed. It just doesn’t stick.

Eventually everyone dies and prayer never changes that.

[912gdm]

42. very wel said

[Mariana]

49. The question was about what religious DUers believe.

The OP didn't ask about evidence or scientific proof or anything of that nature.

[jberryhill]

56. "you know religion cannot be scientifically proven"

That statement is a non-sequitur.

Whatever you might mean by that statement, one would have to be an idiot not to understand that a factual proposition such as “does prayer affect health care outcomes” can indeed be numerically measured. In fact, it has been.

If 100 people pray that I live through and illness, and 100 people pray that I die, who wins? If I die, the god of the ones who wanted me to die is stronger, yes?

[Joe941]

64. Thank you.

[icymist]

12. Pray for the dead. Fight like Hell for the living.

[hlthe2b]

15. I'm not religious, but if hatred and hateful thoughts/speech can propagate, then surely

kind, caring, empathetic and healing thoughts--religious or not-- has to have some countering effect, right?

A bit like Newton's third law in physics: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

[Agschmid]

17. Yup.

[Newest Reality]

51. I agree.

What I think is overlooked is the internal thoughts and state of the person who is into thoughts and prayers. It can be seen as a start, a potential.

I would prefer that people harbor kind and loving thoughts than anger, hatred and prejudice or a sense of revenge as well as glee at the misfortune of others, and in that sense, their is a value in people engaging in that, all metaphysical aspects aside.

Now, where a flaw is, (once people are practicing more of an internal loving kindness) is for that THEN to inspire actions, better behaviors towards others, tolerance, etc., and that part seems to be often missing and the thoughts and prayers become a symbol of complacency and an absolution for inaction.

So, I can't really put down the idea. An example would be the "eye for an eye, and tooth for a tooth" edict in the Old Testament. Today, we would think of that as rather barbaric in itself. Yet, back then, it was an upgrade, as in, no you can't kill and torture an entire family because one member of it punched your lights out or insulted you, etc. It was about restricting the rage and carnage of revenge and also metering out a more reasonable form of justice.

I would rather fundamentalists be actually praying for other people's benefits and thinking about good will than any other alternatives. I would also encourage them to act on them, as well, and damn it, study and practice what you preach.

[treestar]

59. yes, the good thoughts are better

than the hatred, or the just not caring at all, or the caring more about something like one's Second Amendment rights than someone you don't know getting shot.

[Newest Reality]

62. There is a lot of ignorance involved, too.

It seems that some people who profess themselves to be Christian, don't know about its history and how many people sacrificed their lives and became martyrs for that cause. If they would have been running around claiming they needed to protect themselves from their fellows and sword rights, early Christianity might have had a far different fate.

I mean, golly gosh, this isn't something you take to heart and live when your Messiah states it clearly:

"Live by the sword, die by the sword" is a proverb in the form of a parallel phrase, derived from the Gospel of Matthew (Matthew 26, 26:52): "Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."

They didn't have guns, but we can substitute gun, or simply weapon. It is making a point.

And as far as all this fear and self-importance goes, one wonders why this is not taken seriously at all:

4Then Jesus told His disciples, “If anyone wants to come after Me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me. 25 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26What will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?…

So, no matter what one's view of religion is and how they have acquired a distaste for Christianity, the modern followers don't seem to subscribe to their Master's words, and therefore, are more like hypocrites and those whom Jesus spoke out about.

And, the response to that would be something like:

And He said to them, 24“Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’ 26 then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’ 27But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’ 28

McChristians tend to really have it wrong and ignorance is no excuse, biblicaly. Ah, but when ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise

[treestar]

63. "McChristians" indeed

paying little attention to the Bible or paying attention only to the parts that fit their political preferences (against gay people, for one and in favor of immigrants for another). It's a political thing for them, not even religion, and they add some trappings of religion. Many of them are in some way equating it with Whiteness/Europe. Then they are more ignorant of the actual teachings of Jesus or the spiritual side.

[Bradical79]

16. Only as psychological comfort, depending on the individual

No supernatural ability to help anyone, of course. If prayer had any real effect in thay manner, the world would be a much different place.

[Kaleva]

19. Have you done anything that's effective after these mass shootings?

Please list them.

Making posts on DU and doing little else is about the same as sending thoughts and prayers. I imagine most here limit themselves to expressing grief, anger and compassion for the victims and their loved ones but go on about their daily lives in the real world like nothing has happened.

[stopbush]

24. Considering that no one in government or anyone leading the large

religious and/or anti-gun coalitions has been able to - in your words - do anything effective after these mass shootings, it would be presumptuous of me or you to suggest that any individual has done anything effective in this matter.

So take your scolding elsewhere. It’s childish.

[Kaleva]

40. But you'd have to admit that there is a direct correleation between how serious one thinks an issue

is to how vigorous one responds to it. If the issue is extremely important, the the greater the effort an individual makes trying to address or correct the issue. On the inverse, if the issue isn't that important, then little, if anything, is done to address it. For examples of the former, one can look at MLK, Gandhi, Fredrick Douglass, Susan B. Anthony, Medgar Evers, and even Cindy Sheehan. People who didn't limit themselves sending thoughts and prayers, to writing posts on the internet or letters to the editor of a local newspaper.

[ck4829]

21. Yes... because we have a third of the nation praying NOTHING is done after mass shootings

[raccoon]

32. Their prayers are wroking. nt

[Polly Hennessey]

27. Well, if focused mental

energy from groups of people works our species should have no problems to consider. We all pray at the same time- problem solved.

[Farmer-Rick]

29. Scientific studies show prayer does nothing.

But, people coming and showing concern for a sick person does tend to decrease recovery time.

So, show concern for the sick and suffering it will help.

[Dirty Socialist]

35. Pray for GUN CONTROL

And a ban on assault rifles and AR-15s

[bdamomma]

61. Exactly

but we have Wayne Lapierre spewing his crap to Americans, that everyone should carry a gun. It's de-escalate not escalate the sickness.

Civil war?? it's happening in our country right now, with guns, intolerance and hate.

[StarryNite]

39. I don't believe prayers do a thing for those being prayed for.

I suspect those who pray feel like they have done something positive and that allows them to sleep at night.

For myself, I lean towards deism.

[ismnotwasm]

41. I'm not religious

There is a basic psychology to religion though. It’s not hard to understand why prayer works for people who believe in it.

[yortsed snacilbuper]

44. pray in one hand, $hit in the other,

see which one fills up the fastest?

[Lady_Chat]

45. From the Bible:"So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."

James 2:14-17
"What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."

Prayer without action will not work. If we want these mass shootings to stop, pray, but take action. Keep after your representatives about getting common sense gun control, support and vote for those who do. My grams use to say: "God isn't Santa Claus". Prayer can bring comfort, but we have to put some work into things we want.

[ecstatic]

46. I really think prayers help the person praying.

Prayer is like meditation. You can pray for another person, but ultimately, it's like a form of self therapy. Addiction recovery groups rely heavily on calling on a higher power. It's not specific to one religion.

As long as the person praying understands that sometimes the answer is no, I think prayer can be effective with regard to personal healing, courage, and manifestation.