REALLY fucking STRUGGLING to understand why this isn't an impeachable offense...

[Miles Archer]

Trump tries to force Ukraine to meddle in the 2020 election

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/is-trump-strong-arming-ukraines-new-president-for-political-gain/2019/09/05/4eb239b0-cffa-11e9-8c1c-7c8ee785b855_story.html

UKRAINE’S NEOPHYTE president, Volodymyr Zelensky, took a big step this week toward proving that he will be, as he promised, the most pro-reform president in Ukraine’s history. On Monday, he laid out a breathtakingly ambitious five-year plan including virtually every measure the International Monetary Fund and Western governments have urged on Ukraine in recent years, from land reform to the privatization of state companies to a cleansing of the judiciary.

That ought to be cause for celebration in Washington, where successive Democratic and Republican administrations have tried to draw Ukraine away from Vladi­mir Putin’s Russia and into the ranks of Western democracies, only to be frustrated by the fecklessness and corruption of the country’s political leaders. Yet Mr. Zelensky has so far failed to win the backing of President Trump. Not only has Mr. Trump refused to grant the Ukrainian leader a White House visit, but also he has suspended the delivery of $250 million in U.S. military aid to a country still fighting Russian aggression in its eastern provinces.

Some suspect Mr. Trump is once again catering to Mr. Putin, who is dedicated to undermining Ukrainian democracy and independence. But we’re reliably told that the president has a second and more venal agenda: He is attempting to force Mr. Zelensky to intervene in the 2020 U.S. presidential election by launching an investigation of the leading Democratic candidate, Joe Biden. Mr. Trump is not just soliciting Ukraine’s help with his presidential campaign; he is using U.S. military aid the country desperately needs in an attempt to extort it.

The strong-arming of Mr. Zelensky was openly reported to the New York Times last month by Mr. Trump’s personal lawyer, Rudolph W. Giuliani, who said he had met in Madrid with a close associate of the Ukrainian leader and urged that the new government restart an investigation of Mr. Biden and his son. Hunter Biden served on the board of a Ukrainian gas company, while Joe Biden, as vice president, urged the dismissal of Ukraine’s top prosecutor, who investigated the firm.

[brooklynite]

1. Who says it isn't

The question is NOT whether there's an Impeachable offense; the question is whether to go ahead and Impeach, knowing that the result will be no Conviction.

We have an election next year; that's how we'll get rid of Trump AND Pence.

[thesquanderer]

11. Right. There is no shortage of impeachable offenses, only a shortage of will to impeach. (nt)

[Tipperary]

28. Yep.

[tymorial]

21. It doesnt matter if there is a conviction.

Congress took an oath and by ignoring the president's crimes, those who do not support impeachment are breaching their oath of office.

I don't particularly care if this is taken as criticizing Democrats. We either accept and acknowledge constitutional law, duty and obligation or we support contravention for political convenience.

We have a president that is openly committing crime, incriminating himself publically, and generally behaving in a way that dishonors the office. We have an attorney general who has positioned himself as Donald Trump's personal attorney rather than chief legal counsel for the government. There has always been a distinction, one that even a nut job like Jeff Sessions accepted.

A lack of conviction by the senate is often cited as a reason to not impeach. I state that is yet another reason to proceed. Not because evidence is weak but because under McConnell the Senate has been made subservient to the executive. There is no separation of power and checks and balances because the Republicans actively seek to defend Trump and ignore his transgressions.

Yes, you are right it will be no conviction. That is why we should impeach. At least one house should stand for duty and obligation. I expect my representatives to honor their oath of office just as I expect them to represent the interests of my district and state. At the end of the day however the oath comes first because without a country we can have no state or District. Without a constitution we can have no individual rights.

So, when I hear or read people say we cannot impeach what I really read is that we have no faith in our constitution. If we have no faith in our constitution then we don't have any rights at all.

[Mister Ed]

22. Aye. Wish I could K&R a reply. n/t

[dchill]

23. I'm gonna go ahead and K&R your reply.

Anyway.

[mountain grammy]

24. Agree!

[c-rational]

25. Agreed and well said.

[notinkansas]

30. Impeach for sure, but

do not send anything to the Senate.

I think repub senators are entirely capable of reading the polling. They see that Trump is losing to many if not all Dems. What if they decided that impeaching 45 would give them the best chance to win in 2020? Pence becomes president and immediately issues a pardon to 45. Ugh!

[tymorial]

33. If they impeach then the senate must hold a trial

And yes the eventuality you cite is possible. It is just as possible that if the president loses the election he will step aside so that Pence becomes president and pardons him. I contend that there are plans to pardon him at any point in his presidency (this term or god forbid if he wins next year).

As I sent though there's a larger issue at stake and that is the authority of Congress to hold the executive to account and the duty by its members to execute their duty. We are either a constitutional republic or we are not. Separation of powers exists for a reason and our elected representatives must affirm the rights of congress and ultimately the rights of the people. It is unacceptable to have a president who fancies himself above the law. He is not a monarch. He is not emperor or supreme leader. His behavior is unacceptable and at least one house must step up and hold him to account.

[Iwasthere]

29. Do you honestly think there will be an election

If he can get away with these high crimes he will feel all powerful. There will be NOTHING he won't stoop to. He knows now he will be tried when he leaves office.

[jberryhill]

2. Because the Democratic leadership does not define it to be one

[RKP5637]

3. I don't get it. Anything he does seems beyond reproach! If a democrat had done just one or two

of what he has done there would be an uproar and endless hearings and whatever. It's just too damn quiet IMO as this damn con artist just floats along seemingly untouchable. It's all getting to be a total WTF to me. I can't wait for 2020 to clean up the criminal enterprise.

[JHB]

31. The big difference is that if a Democratic prez had done any of this...

...he or she wouldn't have the limitless backing that Trump has from Republicans. No matter how heavily invested part of the party was in this hypothetical person, enough Democratic members of the House and Senate would break that the opposition party wouldn't be forced into insane calculations about how to bring it off.

[leftstreet]

4. Why would anyone bother investigating Biden?

And I don't mean because of his value as a candidate

I mean the guy's been in politics for a gazillion years. He's been vetted a million times. There wouldn't be any 'dirt' or whatever Trump wants on him.

How fucking stupid and worthless

[JHB]

32. The usual reason: dig up or invent crap to make into headlines

It ain't about facts, it's about stampeding their herd.

[FoxNewsSucks]

5. Worse yet,

When reading the title, there's no way to know WHICH DAMN ONE of the criminal things MF45 did that would be the topic.

Why is that piece of shit still walking free, much less holding any public office???

[Miigwech]

6. trump is out control, even by our Rule of Law

thanks Moscow Mitch and every repub in power. They use power for ill, not for the Will of the People!

[ffr]

8. +1

[onetexan]

34. K&R

[ffr]

7. This is why I see red for any conservative, republican, or Cult45 follower

tRumPutin is systematically dismantling democracies, including our own. That's exactly what Putin's publicly stated mission is.

Which proves that the only American patriots remaining are on the left.

NO
MORE
REPUBLICANS

[Newest Reality]

9. We have to deal with outlaws now and I am addresing the struggling we are going through...

Notice how people expect this and that, for some odd reason, heheheh, and not only don't they get it, (rule of law, justice, etc.) but boundaries are being weakened and broached over and over again with abandon. It is funny that the wall, ah...fence, is kind of symbolic in a way since Dastardly Don revolves around it and we need one around him, actually.

This is a massively destructive injection of criminality and deception and a series of huge blows to our system. Now, the only benefit to that is that we are learning about some potential flaws and loopholes that may have to be addressed during the cleanup.

You have probably notice that little of what the public thinks en masse, (poll after poll) is acted upon, though we have a do nothing state when it comes to obstruction of anything beneficial or vital to our needs. So, where is the democracy there?

So, we have our own line to cross and that is in regards to our expectations based on the past, now. Rather than being shocked, angry or otherwise reactive to the gradual flow of egregious behaviors that are not being legally addressed, we might benefit by starting with open eyes and resolving the cognitive dissonance that is plaguing us and, most importantly, wearing down our resilience.

It is a form of acceptance as a means to move onward with direction and energy, not as a step into apathy and surrender. I think that it also bypasses what has been working for Trump in our body politic, (for both sides) and that is to distract, get constant attention, and wear us down to the bone, frazzle our nerves and breed confusion.

We can stop that here and now by way of observation and awareness as well as response instead of reaction, and that's the best strategy I can suggest.

[Pepsidog]

10. Breathtaking

[abqtommy]

12. As far as I'm concerned, every breath tRUMP, Barr, McConnel et al

takes is an impeachable offense. God bless those that impeaches the sunny beaches!

[Guilded Lilly]

13. Most days, I just start out and end up shaking my head, speechless. n/t

[Karadeniz]

14. Getting someone to work on behalf of one's election is a thing of value. Trump's using the Ukraine

To help his reelection violates both federal campaign laws (foreign govt) and the emoluments law. My opinion.

[Kablooie]

15. It's simple. While the president is not above the law, Donald Trump is.

To Republicans he is god on earth and will be allowed any kind of impeachable behavior because he's Donald Trump.

[Skittles]

16. because no one will do anything about him

that's why

[tymorial]

17. There are lots of impeachable offenses. There is simply no will to impeach

[Recursion]

18. Because the inevitable acquittal in the Senate would help him

And we'd rather not hand him a "TRUMP VINDICATED!" news cycle.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

36. But if the House doesn't do something

then he still gets to claim that he was vindicated. If our Democratic nominee goes after Trump on virtually anything related to the Mueller report or any one of a number of instances of wrongdoing, criminal or otherwise, Trump could easily just rebut it with: "If what I did was so bad, why didn't the House impeach me?" Then, how does the Democratic nominee respond? If he/she has to explain all of the nuance and calculations that went into that decision, then the argument will likely fall on deaf ears. We are going to need to have a good way to argue that Trump has abused his powers as POTUS that doesn't also make us look like we've abdicated our role of holding him accountable. A lack of a conviction by a Republican Trump-loyalist enabling Senate doesn't really look that good for Trump by comparison IMHO- and makes the Republicans in the Senate look corrupt.

[Initech]

19. Is there any impeachable offense that they haven't committed yet?

Cause if they're still waiting for the proverbial shoe to drop, Chump has had an entire distribution warehouse full of shoes drop. Something has to stick.

[11 Bravo]

20. It is. It's simply not a convictable offense.

And that's because we are currently infected with a Senate majority which will allow ANY mis-, mal-, or nonfeasance in office; as long as it's committed by their guy.

I hope to live long enough to see the word "Republican" join the ranks of other words not used in polite company.

[LanternWaste]

35. I'm certain that will never happen...

"I hope to live long enough to see the word "Republican" join the ranks of other words not used in polite company."

I'm certain that will never happen... someone will pretend the Australian, British, etc. meaning is just as important-- as a nifty little workaround.

[11 Bravo]

38. Aussies and Brits are free to determine their own linguistic usage.

I won't try to apply my sensibilities to them, if they don't try to do the same to mine.
And to the best of my knowledge, that hasn't taken place.
But I see what you did there.

[KPN]

26. Ditto ... and what we're afraid of? Oh, the

Senate ... and then we sit on it, do interminable investigations, the public days WTF are they accomplishing for me?, they are a bunch of ineffective liberals, and we lose the election and the Senate. ... Good strategy!

[c-rational]

27. This and many of the Dotard's actions are impeachable and he should be impeached. I agree

with many other posters and Richard Painter that whether the Senate convicts is irrelevant. I try daily not to succumb to numbness. Dems need to raise their voices. The reThuglicans are out of control and know no boundaries.

[maxsolomon]

37. He has the power to do this, so he will.

This is how old-school power operates. How the Mob operates. How Putin operates. How Trump and his Dad operated his real estate business.

Extortion.