Talked with a farmer friend the other day...

[Comatose Sphagetti]

We met going opposite ways on a country road. Stopped and chatted for a while.
A few pleasantries then he starts on "socialism."
I explained democratic socialism is not the Soviet socialism of old, or that the state controls the means of production, etc., etc...
I pointed out he was in fact driving on democratic socialism (taxpayer funded public roadway) at this very moment.
I wanted to point out that I know for a fact he has personally received over a quarter-million dollars in farm subsidies over the years (also democratic socialism.) But, not wanting to get into a heated argument, I said nothing.
Do I believe our conversation got him rethinking his views about democratic socialism?
I don't know. But I do believe it's these quiet, respectful conversations between friends that will change minds.

[brush]

1. I hope you got us a convert who will go against unfit, orange debacle in 2020.

[AJT]

2. Well done. I am not sure I have the patience anymore.

[CottonBear]

3. Try using the term social democracy the next time you speak with your friend.

Social Democracy is a more accurate description. It might help to frame your argument in a better way when speaking with your friend.

[Beartracks]

7. That's a good point. "Social" is the modifier; "Democracy" is what it still is. n/t

[Comatose Sphagetti]

18. Agreed

Good point.

[DURHAM D]

4. Did you mention the Homestead Act? nt

[real Cannabis calm]

5. K&R I've tried your approach with little success...

Many people, who have spent their lives voting for GOP politicians appear indoctrinated.

[Hortensis]

6. We enjoy those stops between friends also, though

rarer these days.

Actually, though, roads are a public service, older than the Roman emperors. Schools are maintained by every kind of government system, socialist states just one of them, and predate socialism as a national ideology. Critically, socialism requires collective ownership and control of the means of production.

Now, if his farm and others around belonged to a collective that was either self governing or controlled by fairly local government, and he worked for and was part of that collective, that'd probably be considered democratic socialism. (The democratic part would be they'd still have democratic elections.) If the farm collective was under the authority of a central government, say back in DC or the state capitol, that'd be more like ordinary basic socialism.

Btw, collective ownership of America's farms would be virtually guaranteed under socialism and very possible under dem soc. Back in the 1970s-80s, Sanders advocated a long list of means of production that should be seized for collective ownership. Just looked and unfortunately couldn't find it; it's been awhile. But farms are basic production, food supply after all. To put it mildly, he made few converts back then, and when he entered congress his made his list very short instead.

These days it's so short that he's telling people roads and schools are socialism and people are really already socialists. NO, and I don't know why he's saying that, but people who are interested should go find out what socialism is and is not for themselves. Not from a proselytizer or politician either.

[Mr.Bill]

8. Changing someon'es opinion on Socialism

is a good thing to do. But this election cycle, the republicans will not call our candidate a Socialist. They are going to call them a Communist.

Remember, these are the people who said AOC wants to take away our cheeseburgers. That is the level they are playing on.

[TeamPooka]

9. Republicans already say we want illegal immigrants to rape their women and kill their children

and that we want to kill babies we forgot to abort after they're born.

[Leith]

10. Communist?

It wasn't Democratic senators who went to Moscow on the 4th of July holiday. It was all rethugs.

[Mr.Bill]

13. They'll just call that fake news.

That will be good enough for about 99% of those who were stupid enough to vote for him in the first place.

[keithbvadu2]

11. Does he accept gov't subsidies of any kind?

Does he accept gov't subsidies of any kind?

You answer the question. Would he?

[Cracklin Charlie]

12. Finding common ground works.

It may be the only thing that does work.

[BigmanPigman]

14. Michael Moore and Bill Maher discussed this topic this week

on his show. Moore said that it isn't Capitalism vs Communism. It is Capitalism vs Socialism but he said that the old Capitalism doesn't work any more and we must move to a combination of the two, like in most of Europe and Canada.

Skip to 6:00 mark.

[pnwmom]

15. Democratic Socialism IS a form of socialism. Social Democrats, as in the Nordic countries,

practice a well-regulated form of capitalism, with a strong safety net. Democratic Socialists and Social Democrats are NOT the same thing.

You are making the same mistake Bernie, AOC, and some others make.

From the site of the Democratic Socialists of America:

https://www.dsausa.org/about-us/what-is-democratic-socialism/

Today, corporate executives who answer only to themselves and a few wealthy stockholders make basic economic decisions affecting millions of people. Resources are used to make money for capitalists rather than to meet human needs. We believe that the workers and consumers who are affected by economic institutions should own and control them.

Social ownership could take many forms, such as worker-owned cooperatives or publicly owned enterprises managed by workers and consumer representatives. Democratic socialists favor as much decentralization as possible. While the large concentrations of capital in industries such as energy and steel may necessitate some form of state ownership, many consumer-goods industries might be best run as cooperatives.


https://jacobinmag.com/2018/08/democratic-socialism-social-democracy-nordic-countries

The Nordic countries — Finland, Norway, and Sweden — are social democracies. They have constitutional representative democracies, extensive welfare benefits, corporatist collective bargaining between labor and capital that is managed by the state, and some state ownership of the economy. These institutions would be much preferable relative to the ones in our neoliberal wasteland.

Yet even if labor is given a greater voice both at the workplace and in the management of the economy, capitalist control persists over the large majority of workplaces.

In social democracies, public ownership of the main productive assets is limited in comparison to what it could be. Consider the strongest case, Norway. Bruenig emphasizes its public ownership by pointing out that the state owns seventy-four companies. This is no small matter: the state-owned enterprises (SOEs) in Norway account for nearly 60 percent of GDP. The majority is made up by Equinor, the state-owned oil company, which accounts for about 60 percent of the state’s shareholding (the state owns about 67 percent of its shares). In total, the SOEs, including the oil company, employ about 280,000 workers.

But absolute numbers are always deceptive out of their context. There are about 2.8 million total employed workers in Norway. Just 10 percent of the employed workforce work in these state-owned enterprises. The public sector in general employs about 30 percent of the workforce, the highest proportion in the capitalist world.

SNIP

[rufus dog]

16. While I agree being kind is usually the best approach

I believe we are way past that point. In fact it may already be too late. No logical thinking person voted for tRump. No logical thinking person still supports tRump. Your neighbor knows he drives on public funded roads, he knows he is living off the govt teet, he thinks he deserves it. He also believes certain people don’t deserve anything.

So while you may think you are educating him he is likely going home and writing on a RW site that he just owned the local libtard. If you think he doesn’t know the classic definition of Socialism, it makes him chuckle. He is just using the term Socialism because he is playing you because he sees you as a pansy assed white boy who loves them others.

He brought it up right? He wanted to engage you and show you up. Next time mock him, piss him off. Because they ain’t changing, but they do need to be taught to shut the f up.

Edit to add - because I am going to be in the minority here:

This kind process is exactly why we get our asses handed to us. Any kid in kindergarten would see tRump as a horrible person. Republicans see it too. They just don’t care, he hates the same they hate. They just aren’t comfortable being open. He allows them to dip a toe in the water, if allowed they will jump in. Don’t allow it. Stop them immediately.

Now if you aren’t comfortable, fine. But don’t chastise those that do. I’ll give you two examples from this week. Beto calls them out. Not harshly, just directly. Next day some Dems, including Sen Coons said he went too far. So the media and the republicans immediately get what they want. Beto being called out for being too extreme

Then the slow play impeachment fiasco. Team tRump claiming it isn’t discovery because of Pelosi's public comments. Again, media and republicans get what they want.

In both cases we aren’t talking about radical, unprecedented actions. We are talking the norm but are forced to defend.

[in2herbs]

20. Agree 100000000%. nt

[MarcA]

24. Agreed. I got mine you get yours attitude. They don't care.

Then wave the flag, pledge the allegiance, sing the anthem and cite
the platitudes while knowing and ignoring what they really are doing.

[yaesu]

17. I would ask if they ever drove on a public road, went to a public school, ever called police or fire

services, or was being kept safe by the US military because all of these are socialist agencies and services.

[WinstonSmith4740]

19. Unfortunately...

It seems we're always taking 2 steps forward and 1 back with this approach. We're dealing with heavily indoctrinated people here. Remember the Koch Brother funded buses going around the country raising hell during the ObamaCare town hall meetings? There were obvious retirees holding up signs that said "Keep your government hands off my Medicare". Seriously. But any progress is better than none, so as long as the movement is forward, keep going. I did find myself that planting the seed of "the roads you drive on everyday are due to socialism", tends to take them down the road of "Wait a minute...my kid's school is funded by taxes, as are police and fire departments, etc. All socialist." But don't be surprized if they backslide...it never ends. Just keep going.
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=keep+your+government+hands+off+my+medicare&qpvt=keep+your+government+hands+off+my+medicare&FORM=IGRE

[Stuart G]

21. Let's see...."socialism" something about the government doing the job that private industry could

do...or something like that..oh,..forgot.."for the good of the people"

Most cities provide clean water everyone.
Most places have .."parks" for everyone.
Something called "social security" for almost everyone
The city pays for the fire and police departments...for all people.
Trash pickup provided by cities to keep places "clean and healthy" for everyone
Public schools and education for all up to grade 12.
Public roads and road repair on most streets and roads for everyone. (who uses them)
....any more? You add..

well..........those above aren't so called "socialist" ideas. But at one time most were reserved for the rich only. Like schools and private parks. Not until the late 1890s did all cities provide clean water. etc...etc..

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

22. Farmers who take subsidies

are the most completely hypocritical people there are.

They take the money and rail about Welfare Queens and all the other undesirables supposedly taking their money and living a life of ease at taxpayer expense.

You really should have mentioned his farm subsidies.

[sharedvalues]

23. Does he watch Fox?

If so you will never persuade him.
It’s like trying to fight a fire while Fox is pouring gasoline on it. Unless you stop the gasoline you’ll never stop the fire.