High Velocity Gun Shot Image :::GRAPHIC XRay IMAGE:::

[irisblue]

Ortho”Facts”* (group of orthopaedic MDs) (@Orthofacts) Tweeted:
GSW - high velocity https://t.co/OJYDhiwu1F

Link to tweet

Right femur is shattered with several bullet fragments scattered in the soft tissues, muscles, blood vessels.

This is what those guns do to human bodies.

[irisblue]

1. I started Radiography College in 82

The films we took then for GSWs were mostly single slugs.

Time passed, things got worse, battlefield radiography taught Radiologists, techs, and Surgeons a whold damn lot.

[The Wizard]

2. I saw a guy killed

in Vietnam by a 50 caliber to the femur. The bullet ricocheted and exited his stomach.

[irisblue]

4. I googled. That is a roughly 5.5 inch length round.

[The Wizard]

7. The whole round is 5.5 in.

The projectile is 1/2 inch in diameter and about an inch long. The were designed to shoot down airplanes.

[sarisataka]

6. How far of a shot was it

That a .50 ricocheted off a bone?

[The Wizard]

8. I don't know

I just saw the body. He was VC, looked to be about 16 years old.

[sarisataka]

9. It had to have been very long

In the Gulf I saw a man who had been hit by a. 50 after passing through the engine block of the truck he was driving.
It wasn't pleasant.

[jpak]

3. but...but..,but...

Gunz Dont Cill!

[hack89]

5. That is what any rifle does to human bodies

big bullets at high velocity. If you get shot by a rifle, pray they are not using civilian hunting ammo.

[irisblue]

10. I honestly do not recall alot of civilian rifle usage as being common before the Cocaine wars.

But it was along time ago, and I did not always work the ER.

The damage that an high velocity does still impresses me.

[hack89]

11. Rifles and shotguns account for about 300 deaths a year according to the FBI

pistols are still the big killers.

[irisblue]

12. The extensive damage that automatic weapons do to human bodies is my main point.

Thank you for the education, but I'm thinking I'd prefer to stay to that point.

[hack89]

14. And my point is that damage is not unique to "automatic" weapons

in fact, any deer hunting rifle will do much more damage than the rifle in your OP.

[irisblue]

15. Again, thank you for your time in replying to my thread. I am finished with this sub thread

[aikoaiko]

52. Where are you getting the idea that these injuries depicted in the OP are from automatic rifles?

[greyl]

54. Good question. nt

[KT2000]

16. Yes - people die quickly

in those hunting accidents. Shooting 50 bullets in a matter of seconds is not the same as hunting rifles though. At Sandy Hook, one little 6 year old was hit several times by those high velocity bullets. The inside of his poor little body was likely mush due to the cavitations from each bullet.

[NickB79]

18. Ban high capacity magazines

With a 5-rd magazine, an AR isn't much different from a semi-automatic deer rifle in terms of rate of fire, and hits with about half the energy of a .308

[KT2000]

19. Obfuscation

There are doctors who have been speaking for years about the horrendous injuries from assault weapons, usually inflicted on innocent people, including children. They are less likely to be saved. Doctors who have worked in war zones are familiar with those injuries but most see them for the first time in their emergency rooms.
Dangerous activities now: going to school; shopping; going to the movies; attending a community festival.

I wonder if the gun lovers would like to see the autopsy photos of the two year old who was destroyed in El Paso? Remember, cavitation destroys tissue for inches around the bullet path.


People can carry on with everything they know about rifles and guns but if they cannot see the damage to society and so many individuals, it gets down to a difference in values that argument won't change.
We are all architects of the society in which we live..

[NickB79]

22. High-capacity magazine bans were a hallmark feature of the 1994 AWB

Are you not in favor of reinstating part or all of it?

[KT2000]

23. As Beto O'Roarke said

mandatory buy back

[NickB79]

24. Good luck with that

Within 6 months, every semiautomatic AR will be replaced with a pump-action AR, purchased with the buyback money. They're already out, you know, and fire virtually as fast as a semiautomic rifle. They're also unaffected by any proposed AWB's. You'll spend billions for no appreciable impact, except to send gun manufacturer's stocks soaring from the wave of new gun purchases.

Address the source of the issue, magazine capacity, and the rifle's mode of firing becomes irrelevant. It would also be much cheaper and easier than trying to get millions of AR's off the street.

[KT2000]

28. I think this is a problem without a solution

and this country and its citizens will pay the price as it slinks into second rate status - proliferation of weapons and killings being one example of it rotting at its core.

Years ago I worked on an environmental issue. A polluting corp. was trying to dump dioxin and mercury laden pollution in a pit next to a neighborhood of families. The state said - Sure! A scientist at the federal level though told me on the sly that a favored tactic is for the polluter to throw out meaningless "science" to confuse the issue but I was advised to ignore the tactic and stick to common sense. No, it was not right for the corp to poison the people - and we won.

The stats will improve with a magazine ban but we still have to face the fact that there are many who place the possession and thrill of weapons of war over a peaceful society. The fascination, adoration and downright fetish of people for their guns is at its core, sick. This thing that was designed to kill enemy soldiers or at least, damage them so they are no longer functioning killers, is a sign of decline for the individual and the society. Face it, people who fight for their right to own weapons of war have something in common with those who go on murderous rampages. For sport?? BS

Over and out.

[JonLP24]

66. I agree completely

[Amishman]

82. they won't even need to turn in the original, just change a couple parts to make it not semi auto

and they'd probably just tuck the original parts away in a box in the attic.

[irisblue]

20. The above image shows 1 bullet to 1 body part

***To be clear, I do not know if there were other body parts belonging to the same person that were shot***

The power from an automatic weapon is immense, human bodies, especially childten, are much much smaller then adult deers.

[NickB79]

21. This is the same for all rifles, regardless of action

Centerfire rifles are all powerful weapons; the cartridge fired is by and large irrelevant as even the weaker ones still cause such damage. Physics dictates that when you push a piece of copper and lead over 2000 feet per second, which all rifles do, the bullet will cause large wound cavities.

Hence, ban the means by which they can fire large numbers of said rounds: the high-capacity magazines. This was a hallmark of the 1994 AWB after all.

[irisblue]

25. My original point is that when automatic weapons are used in civilian life, it is war level damage.

Battle field type injuries are now a near common event in civilian hospitals. Radiographer-the Technologists who do tje images- cont med ed packs are teaching how to image patients with numerous enterance and cavitation type exit wounds. The Radiologists, the ones who read the films now need to report what the suspected bullet type was.

Automatic high speed weapons are causing immense damage to human bodies.
The above image is horrific.

[Raymond O]

32. Automatic rifles are no more capable

of producing (high speed) velocity than a bolt action in same cartridge, caliber, bullet type and load.

[irisblue]

33. Welcome to DU Raymond O

This thread is about the way that an bullets fired from an automatic weapon dose damage to a human body.

[Raymond O]

36. Reality is that there is no difference

what firearm a bullet is fired from. Component make up of the cartridge, primarily the bullet design is the chief factor of wound damage. Velocity is definitely another factor.

A 223 Rem semi auto AR 15 22 inch 10 twist barrel and a 223 Rem bolt action M700 22 inch 10 twist barrel loaded with the same cartridge produce the same ballistics. Human tissue damage would be the same provided that each subject were physically the same and projectile entered the body exactly the same angle and velocity.

Bottom line is a automatic rifle is no more physically damaging than a bolt action rifle and is disingenuous to state other wise.

[irisblue]

37. Please consider discussing your point with the orthopedic surgeon whose tweet I posted

The twitter addy is above, you'd be able to reach them there.

From the Atlantic article listed in post 29

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/02/what-i-saw-treating-the-victims-from-parkland-should-change-the-debate-on-guns/553937/

Snip-"The injury along the path of the bullet from an AR-15 is vastly different from a low-velocity handgun injury. The bullet from an AR-15 passes through the body like a cigarette boat traveling at maximum speed through a tiny canal. The tissue next to the bullet is elastic—moving away from the bullet like waves of water displaced by the boat—and then returns and settles back. This process is called cavitation; it leaves the displaced tissue damaged or killed. The high-velocity bullet causes a swath of tissue damage that extends several inches from its path. It does not have to actually hit an artery to damage it and cause catastrophic bleeding. Exit wounds can be the size of an orange.

With an AR-15, the shooter does not have to be particularly accurate. The victim does not have to be unlucky. If a victim takes a direct hit to the liver from an AR-15, the damage is far graver than that of a simple handgun-shot injury. Handgun injuries to the liver are generally survivable unless the bullet hits the main blood supply to the liver. An AR-15 bullet wound to the middle of the liver would cause so much bleeding that the patient would likely never make it to the trauma center to receive our care."


I am sure the Radiologist who wrote the article would also value your medical opinion as well.



And did you know there is a group for people to discuss guns?

[Raymond O]

50. You are discussing guns in this forum without issue, looks like I can reply also.

“An AR-15 bullet wound to the middle of the liver would cause so much bleeding that the patient would likely never make it to the trauma center to receive our care."

This same “special” AR-15 bullet that can be fired from an array of different firearms and will cause the same amount of tissue damage, one wound are multiple.

The author is clearly not educated in ballistics or their agenda biased. What he is saying below applies to any bullet/cartridge combination capable of 2500 FPS velocity. The AR-15 rifle does nothing to make a bullet more deadly. The 22-250 Rem, one example, fires bullets from 40 grain to 90 gains of weight in the same diameter as the 223 Rem (AR-15 cartridge) and at a much more velocity.

“The bullet from an AR-15 passes through the body like a cigarette boat traveling at maximum speed through a tiny canal. The tissue next to the bullet is elastic—moving away from the bullet like waves of water displaced by the boat—and then returns and settles back. This process is called cavitation; it leaves the displaced tissue damaged or killed. The high-velocity bullet causes a swath of tissue damage that extends several inches from its path. It does not have to actually hit an artery to damage it and cause catastrophic bleeding. Exit wounds can be the size of an orange.”

[irisblue]

51. I am discussing an X Ray. The author of the article is a Radiologist, a Physician

Dr Shers' expertise is in reading Radiographs. She will be certainly learning more over the coming months and years.

I wish you well with your DU experience.

[Raymond O]

56. Discussing an X-ray while supporting disingenuous information about

AR-15 rifles, bullets and firearms in general is unfortunate as it points to a agenda based on lies. Had Dr Shers wrote this article from a point of knowledge in ballistics and firearms she would not have mislead unknowing folks into spreading misinformation being used for a agenda.

Sad

[Straw Man]

61. Orthopedic surgeons don't study ballistics in medical school.

"The injury along the path of the bullet from an AR-15 is vastly different from a low-velocity handgun injury."

Substitute the word "rifle" for the word "AR-15" and you would have the whole truth. The statement as written is meant to suggest that an AR-15 is a uniquely powerful rifle. It is not. Rifles do far more damage round-per-round than handguns, and large-caliber rounds like the .308 do far more damage than intermediate caliber rounds, like the .223 fired by AR-15s.

If you wish to have an honest discussion, let's talk about semi-auto functioning, detachable magazines, and magazine capacity. But sticking your fingers in your ears when anyone points out the misrepresentations present in this thread is disingenuous at best.

[Cerridwen]

64. The Las Vegas shooting - "wounds resembled those most often seen on battlefields" (edited)

As the wounded kept coming, Las Vegas hospitals dealt with injuries rarely seen in the U.S.

<snip>

The devastation that semiautomatic rifles cause to the human body is extreme because they put vastly more energy behind bullets than handguns do.

The velocity of a bullet fired from a typical 9mm handgun is 1,200 feet per second. From an AR-15 semiautomatic, the bullet travels roughly three times faster, and the body must absorb all of that energy.

<snip>

Once inside the body, a high-velocity bullet causes a shock wave as it blasts through tissue. The reverberations expand outward, causing more harm.

<snip>

So many wounds resembled those most often seen on battlefields that the hospital quickly contacted four Air Force trauma surgeons who happened to be participating in a visiting-fellow program there.

"They are used to seeing those things," Fraser said.

<snip to more at link about the shootings in Las Vegas>

<bold added>

Edit to add a link and snip from AirforceTimes article

https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2017/10/06/air-force-surgeons-saved-lives-following-las-vegas-mass-shooting/

<snip>

The surgeons, assigned to the 99th Medical Group, responded to the University Medical Center of Southern Nevada to help treat more than 100 patients with surgical procedures and end-of-life care, Chesnut said. The hospital is Nevada’s only Level One trauma center.

“A lot of the injuries were gunshots to the chest,” Douglas R. Fraser, the hospital’s chief of trauma surgery, told the Washington Post. “Many did not require surgery but required chest tubes to the chest so they could breathe better. The other patients had surgery to remove holes to their bowels and intestines.”

The wounds were so similar to those seen in war that the hospital reached out for assistance from the Air Force trauma surgeons, who were participating in a visiting-fellow program there, according to the Post.

<snip> <bold added>

[hack89]

70. Bcause rifles are a primary weapon on a battlefield

not pistols. But the wounds would have been the same or worse if non-military rifles and ammo were used.

In the civilian world, doctors are unfamiliar with rifle wounds because they are rare - pistols are the big killers in America by a huge margin so pistol wounds are what they are familiar with.

[Cerridwen]

75. "...rifles are a primary weapon on a battlefield" and a country music festival, a walmart, ...

"...rifles are a primary weapon on a battlefield" and a country music festival, a walmart, or a school, kindergarten, etc.

There are plenty of rifles and hunters in NV. I'm not sure I've heard they've had to call battlefield trained surgeons before.

It was unusual enough several outlets, including the AirForceTimes, make note of it.

[hack89]

77. Those deer rifles inflict horrific wounds

which makes sense - their bullets hit with 2 times the energy of an AR-15's and they use expanding ammo.

[samir.g]

13. Ban them.

Period.

[KT2000]

17. Thank you Irisblue

I just hope the candidates will keep and show posters of what damage these weapons cause. That is what this is about. Exit wounds the size of a softball! We have to start using the term"cavitation" which is the tissue damage that is caused along the path of the bullet. Damage is too nice, it is destruction too. People hit multiple times is what happens with assault weapons.

We just can't cower on this.

[J_William_Ryan]

26. As a liberal and life-long Democrat

I’m not comfortable with ‘bans,’ government overreach, and the state compelling citizens to surrender private property.

‘Bans’ and government excess and overreach is sole purview of the authoritarian right: ban drugs, ban abortion, ban same-sex marriage – more government, bigger government interfering in citizens’ private lives; that’s not who we are as liberals.

[irisblue]

27. I did not post this about weapon bans, this is WHAT automatic weapons do to bodies

That is my point.
Most people never see the damage

[fescuerescue]

34. Automatics are usually less powerful

than single action rifles.

The Bolt action hunting rifles are the ones the run all the way up to 50 caliber

So the picture you are showing might actually be a non-automatic hunting rifle.

You probably want to reframe and discuss what -rifles- do to bodies, as the type of mechanism is somewhat irrelevant except that automatics tend to have less power.

[irisblue]

42. The image above is from the orthopedic group that IDed it as a high velocity GSW

Thank you for your input

[Straw Man]

62. "High velocity" has nothing to do with "automatic."

There are automatic (actually semi-automatic, but that's another discussion) rifles in calibers ranging from .22, which is essentially a rabbit-hunting caliber, to .50, which destroys cinder blocks at distances of over a mile. There are also manual actions -- mostly bolt action -- in the same range of calibers.

There is nothing in that entire Twitter thread to indicate that the single round that caused the injury came from an automatic or semi-automatic weapon, and even if it had, that information is irrelevant to any discussion of such weapons since this injury was caused by a single bullet. This wound could have been made by a large-bore muzzle-loader: a flintlock.

[Raymond O]

72. A group of orthopedics that are uneducated in ballistics or

knowing pushing a false narrative for an agenda.

[uncle ray]

44. and yet, nobody uses bolt action hunting rifles for mass shootings.

hmmm.

[fescuerescue]

60. That's correct

It's an entirely different point of course because we are talking about the power of the weapon and the damage it causes in this particular thread.

In this case the OP wasn't talking about how fast they can shoot, but rather the damage a single bullet causes. I was just pointed out a misnoymer to help make her point stronger.

[Kaleva]

68. One of the weapons Charles Whitman used was a bolt action rifle.

[Straw Man]

92. All of Whitman's long-range shots were from the Remington 700 bolt-action rifle.

He used the shotgun to shoot his way onto the observation deck and the M1 Carbine (semi-auto) to "defend" the rooftop when the police stormed it.

[KT2000]

30. something that never

should have been legal to own in the first place. There are many weapons of war that have been declared illegal to own. As we have come to learn what people can do, and have done with these weapons, would it not be irresponsible to get them out of society? There are toxic products and materials that have been banned for the safety of the population. This is no different.

[Duppers]

38. Exactly!

"many weapons of war that have been declared illegal to own."



Thank you.

[aikoaiko]

49. None were confiscated from legal owners as beto wants.

It’s true. Beto wants to implement a more extreme solution for semi-auto rifles like the AR than what we did with actual machine guns.

We never confiscated or required people to turn in their machine guns - only register them.

[Hoyt]

55. I'll settle for no more sales new or used, including when gunners decide to sell one.

In meantime, limit magazine capacity, ammo, etc.

For those who’d like to unload their AR15s and similar rifles in short term, offer them a bolt action rifle, 410 shotgun, or air rifle in trade.

Anyone keeping their AR15s will have to register them, and pay an annual fee to aid victims. We could also list them as ammosexual abusers.

The most important thing is to stop manufacturing of these rifles and future transfer of preban rifles.

[Amishman]

84. I floated that idea to my gun nut brother-in-law, he said there are ways around even that

set up a trust and have the trust own the gun. Selling the rifle means adding/removing names from the trust. gun never technically changes hands, but the controller of the owning entity changes.

[Hoyt]

89. Sorry about your brother. :) Typical, though. They'll look for devious ways. But, I think that

kind of activity could be limited.

For people who claim to be "law abiding," gunners sure are devious.

[KT2000]

63. wish that would happen

but it won't. There are people prepared to fight to the death to keep their assault rifles (weapons of war). I have heard the phrase "there will be blood in the streets" too may times to not believe there is an element of desire for that outcome. That is what America is now.
Too many are selfish enough to kill to keep their weapons. We will adjust to more massacres and proactive, preventive measures to fool ourselves into thinking we can be safe. We'll train our kids with massacre drills and that will be their normal.

BTW - I consider narcissism and selfishness to be mental illnesses. That is the hangup in stopping this desecration. How many societies have survived like this?

[uncle ray]

47. ok, let's regulate AR type rifles like 50 cal guns.

no ban, just strict regulation.

see, now you don't need to be all uncomfortable about gov't overreach.

i find it interesting that generally none of the banned items you listed are used to purposely kill large numbers of people. maybe if the gun humpers would keep their little guns in their private lives, we wouldn't have to have this discussion.

[Amishman]

83. 50 cal guns are not regulated any more strictly

in many states they are subject to less restriction.

They just almost never get used in crimes because they are huge, heavy, and really expensive.

[dalton99a]

29. Like a cigarette boat travelling at maximum speed through a tiny canal

Heather Sher, a radiologist who has worked multiple mass shootings, points to a critical difference between incidents involving assault rifles and ordinary handguns.

I was looking at a CT scan of one of the victims of the shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, who had been brought to the trauma center during my call shift. The organ looked like an overripe melon smashed by a sledgehammer, with extensive bleeding. How could a gunshot wound have caused this much damage?

The reaction in the emergency room was the same. One of the trauma surgeons opened a young victim in the operating room, and found only shreds of the organ that had been hit by a bullet from an AR-15, a semi-automatic rifle which delivers a devastatingly lethal, high-velocity bullet to the victim. There was nothing left to repair, and utterly, devastatingly, nothing that could be done to fix the problem. The injury was fatal.

A year ago, when a gunman opened fire at the Fort Lauderdale airport with a 9mm semiautomatic handgun, hitting 11 people in 90 seconds, I was also on call. It was not until I had diagnosed the third of the six victims who were transported to the trauma center that I realized something out-of-the-ordinary must have happened. The gunshot wounds were the same low velocity handgun injuries as those I diagnose every day; only their rapid succession set them apart. And all six of the victims who arrived at the hospital that day survived.

Routine handgun injuries leave entry and exit wounds and linear tracks through the victim’s body that are roughly the size of the bullet. If the bullet does not directly hit something crucial like the heart or the aorta, and they do not bleed to death before being transported to our care at a trauma center, chances are, we can save the victim. The bullets fired by an AR-15 are different; they travel at higher velocity and are far more lethal. The damage they cause is a function of the energy they impart as they pass through the body. A typical AR-15 bullet leaves the barrel traveling almost three times faster than, and imparting more than three times the energy of, a typical 9mm bullet from a handgun. An AR-15 rifle outfitted with a magazine cartridge with 50 rounds allows many more lethal bullets to be delivered quickly without reloading.

I have seen a handful of AR-15 injuries in my career. I saw one from a man shot in the back by a SWAT team years ago. The injury along the path of the bullet from an AR-15 is vastly different from a low-velocity handgun injury. The bullet from an AR-15 passes through the body like a cigarette boat travelling at maximum speed through a tiny canal. The tissue next to the bullet is elastic—moving away from the bullet like waves of water displaced by the boat—and then returns and settles back. This process is called cavitation; it leaves the displaced tissue damaged or killed. The high-velocity bullet causes a swath of tissue damage that extends several inches from its path. It does not have to actually hit an artery to damage it and cause catastrophic bleeding. Exit wounds can be the size of an orange.

With an AR-15, the shooter does not have to be particularly accurate. The victim does not have to be unlucky. If a victim takes a direct hit to the liver from an AR-15, the damage is far graver than that of a simple handgun shot injury. Handgun injuries to the liver are generally survivable unless the bullet hits the main blood supply to the liver. An AR-15 bullet wound to the middle of the liver would cause so much bleeding that the patient would likely never make it to a trauma center to receive our care.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/02/what-i-saw-treating-the-victims-from-parkland-should-change-the-debate-on-guns/553937/

[irisblue]

31. Thank you for this. I had not read this. It is exactly my point

[SuprstitionAintthWay]

96. Energy imparted by a bullet increases with the SQUARE of its velocity.

That's the key to how radically worse the damage is from a faster bullet than a slower one.

Contrast that with the weight (/mass) of the bullet. Double a bullet's weight and (at the same velocity) its level of energy also doubles.

But double a bullet's speed instead of its weight, and the amount of energy it carries, and enters a body with, doesn't double, it QUADRUPLES. 2X the velocity contains 4X the energy.

TRIPLE a given bullet's velocity and it enters a body with NINE TIMES the energy. And so forth. Remember E = MCsquared? "C" is velocity. Energy = Mass times Velocity SQUARED.

That law of physics is the main reason faster bullets wreak much, much worse devastation on living tissue than lower velocity bullets do.

Since so much of living flesh is water, the illustration of a cigarette boat plowing through water is not a bad one. At 75 mph the boat disrupts the water around it with 9 times more energy than it did at 25 mph. At 100 mph, 16 times the energy. That disruption though is of course only temporary because the water around the boat isn't contained in cell membranes. In living flesh, the shock waves radiating outward with the energy being absorbed burst living cells, destroying them.

[TomSlick]

35. I remember as a young JAG in a Law of War course, spending hours in the JAG School library

researching the legal analysis before the adoption of the M16 (the military version of the AR15).

There was serious debate at the time the M16 was adopted whether it violated the Geneva Convention's prohibition against a weapon designed to inflict unnecessary suffering. In the end, the justification was based on "military necessity."

Essentially, the decision was that the unusual circumstances in Vietnam required a weapon that was much lighter than the M14. The concern was that because of its size and design, the M16 would be less accurate than the M14. To make up for any loss of accuracy, the 5.56mm M16 round would do more damage due to cavitation and tumbling. The "military necessity" for a lighter rifle justified the design intent of the round causing more damage, and therefore suffering, in non-fatal wounds.

[KT2000]

40. this is important information

thank you for posting this.

[sarisataka]

41. That explanation makes no sense

A round that does more damage (but somehow is less fatal) does not make up for a less accurate weapon. If the target is not hit, the damage will be zero.

[TomSlick]

46. Perhaps I was unclear.

In my defense, the legal analysis was (as I recall) lengthy and byzantine. The DoD analysis, in turn, sent me to contrary legal reviews which were often equally difficult to parse. In the end, I was not prepared to argue with the DoD analysis but it seemed unfortunate that the final call was based on a broad military necessity rationale.

The M16 is at least as lethal as the M14, the M1, etc. The concern of the Geneva Convention is not about the lethality of small arms. The concern is the degree of suffering caused by non-lethal wounds and wounds that do not kill quickly. A grenade that produced glass fragments could be quite lethal but it would never the less violate the Geneva Convention because of the difficulty of treating the wounded.

A non-fatal wound from an M14 does less bone and tissue damage than an M16 - again from cavitation and tumbling of the M16 round. The result is a higher degree of suffering - and long term damage - in nonfatal wounds from an M16 than from an M14. There are also more slow exsanguination deaths from the M16 round.

It is obvious, even to a retired Army JAG, that a miss does no damage. The question is the damage done by a near miss.

[aikoaiko]

58. That's fascinating given the science shows 7.62 NATO's terminal ballistics

are higher than the 5.56 NATO's terminal ballistics, all other things being equivalent.


It always astonishes me how the law has nothing to do with the truth or fact, but the perception of truth or facts.

[Locrian]

65. yep

In 1985 the US military had an Army doctor (Dr. Fackler) led an investigation into this subject. The doctor led a team of medical people, engineers and other experts. They found that the Vietnam era M193 5,56 mm cartridge inflected more damaging wounds than the 7.62 x 39 mm round used by the Kalashnikov assault rifle. The reason it did this was that the round would often tumble and breakup after enter the body. The current army cartridge, the 5.56mm M885A1 is even more lethal.


lots of information here
https://www.quora.com/Which-round-does-more-damage-7-62-or-5-56

[zackymilly]

73. The AK-47 versus the AK-74

The AK-74, which uses the 5.45x39mm cartridge, was made because it required lighter equipment loads, reduced recoil, and greater accuracy, compared to it's sister, the AK-47, which uses a 7.62x39mm cartridge.
The Russians found that the the lower caliber round had less penetrating power, but it would yaw earlier once inside the body causing more damage to soft tissues.
I was given an AK-74 about 15 years ago, and it's an okay rifle to target shoot. I liked it because I could get imported surplus ammo for about 10 cents a round when purchased in bulk, which you can't get anymore. I haven't fired it in over 5 years, and have never purchased commercial ammo. I just looked it up and ammo is around 27 cents a round now.

[Flyboy_451]

76. I think your memory is faulty

The Geneva Convention(s) do not address weapons use in warfare. That is The Hague convention.

The Geneva convention(s) are a series of four treaties specifically addressing treatment of those not directly engaged in combat. This includes civilians, wounded, shipwrecked and POWs. It does not contain language addressing in what manner warfare may or may not be waged.

[Leith]

39. It's horrible horrible horrible what those things do to living beings

It's about time that people see the results. The 20th century woman I respect the most in this world is Emmett Till's mother, Mamie Till. It probably almost killed her, but people need to see the results of all kinds of violence.

[former9thward]

43. What type a gun did this come from?

High velocity has nothing to do with "automatics".

[irisblue]

45. Here is the tweet with all the info, I read thru the thread this am, but saw no case report info.

Ortho”Facts”* (group of orthopaedic MDs) (@Orthofacts) Tweeted:
GSW - high velocity https://t.co/OJYDhiwu1F

Link to tweet

[hardluck]

53. The twitter thread talks about it being from a .308 hunting rifle

Why all the talk about machine guns?

Link to tweet

[sarisataka]

57. Wait a minute

so this is not from an AR-15 or even a military weapon but a regular hunting rifle?

[aikoaiko]

59. Whoops.

[Kaleva]

69. One can buy a AR-10 style rifle that fires the .308 round.

[Raymond O]

71. Yes, one can, however, the AR-10 will not transform the 308 cartridge

Into a special high velocity killer. It already is despite the firearm that it is fired from.

[Kaleva]

87. Nor does an AR-15 transorm the .223 into a special killer

[Raymond O]

95. Exactly, tissue damage is not cartridge dependent nor rifle dependent.

[sarisataka]

74. True, so does that mean

The AR-10 is a hunting rifle and not an assault weapon?

You can also convert an AR-15 to shoot the .17HMR rimfire. Does that make one of the smallest available rounds, used by no military in the world, an assault round? Will it suddenly cause horrific wounds because it was launched from an AR-15?

[Kaleva]

86. Until there is agreement on what an assault weapon is, gun control on such is iffy

Some time ago I proposed defining the assault weapon as a semi-auto rifle or carbine that fired a certain round. An AR-15 that fired the .17HMR or an AR-10 that fired the .308 would not be classified as an assault weapon.

[aikoaiko]

48. This is what makes them good for self defense

If you have to shoot someone to stop them from harming you or others, you want that bullet to do this and also create soft tissue damage.

[JonLP24]

67. It also makes it more difficult for the ER to save victims

I remember watching a documentary on the Aurora shooting the doctor said a kid had a massive hole unlike you see with a typical gun. The doctor understood the need for hunting but not for these weapons.

[aikoaiko]

78. Rifle wounds are pretty rare in general. Its not surprising he was shocked.

There are less than 500 rifles wounds from any time of rifle per year. Often less than 300 per year. The doctor in the documentary probably never saw direct, close-range rifle wound before.

Ammo for AR15s and AK-style rifles are actually considered intermediate in terminal ballistics. Sufficient for humans and small deer and hog size animals.

Hunting rifles with .308 or 30-06 ammo (very typical ammo for large deer) is even more devastating to tissue and bones.

Someone down thread went through the twitter post and the ortho doctor said the pictures were from a .308 hunting rifle.

[JonLP24]

79. I saw that and am aware of the gun stats. Handguns are the leading cause of gun homicides

I want all gun homicides & gun suicides to go away as we have too many of them in the US compared to developed countries but I recognize nothing will be done because of the outdated 2A and the only thing both parties can agree on is to discriminate against the mentally ill even though they are more likely to be victims of violent crime than the average population and less than 5% of gun homicides are committed by someone with SMI. In other words a solution that does little to solve the problem.

[aikoaiko]

90. The mental illness issue may be a bigger deal with non-utilitarian mass shootings.

[JonLP24]

91. Trump probably thinks so as well

Jeffrey Swanson, a professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences at Duke University, told ABC News that the president's remarks are an attempt to avoid talking about guns and instead take advantage of a belief held by many Americans that mass shooting suspects must be "crazy."

"What we know is that the majority of these mass shooters, did not have one of the major diagnosable psychiatric disorders like schizophrenia, bipolar disorder or major depression, that we know of," Swanson said.

According to the American Psychiatric Association, mass shootings by people with serious mental illness represent less than 1% of the yearly gun homicides in the U.S. A 2015 study looking at 235 mass killings determined that 22% of the perpetrators were considered mentally ill. And research shows that people with a mental illness are more likely to harm themselves than others, and are often the victims of violent crime.

"To the extent that there is an association, which there is between gun violence and mental illness, it's one contributor of many contributors, and it's the only one that has a ready solution," Lieberman said. "And the solution is providing better health care."

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trumps-claims-experts-mental-illness-mass-shootings/story?id=65101823

Blaming mass shootings on mental illness is 'inaccurate' and 'stigmatizing,' experts say

(snip)

Based on the current body of research, mass shootings tend to fall within specific categories, most of which do not explicitly involve mental illness, according to Post, who has been tracking these "typologies" of massacres.

"One of them is hate crime," Post said, referring to the El Paso, Texas, shooter and the previous mass shootings at a Charleston, South Carolina, church in 2015 and the 2016 Pulse nightclub shooting in Orlando, Florida.
"We also see revenge killing," she said, referring to some workplace shootings. "Then we also have some people whose motives are mostly just to kill as many people as possible" or some are "mission oriented."
"Another typology is domestic violence on steroids," Post said, referring to when a violent spouse might kill an entire family. Most mass shootings fall within the categories of domestic violence, hate crimes or retribution killing, she added.
While these scenarios are important to research, Post said that mass shootings overall are rare occurrences.
By the numbers: Gun deaths in America

"Mass shootings make up a half percent of the total deaths in America," Post said.
"Mental health definitely has a role in gun shootings and that's mostly people who are depressed and kill themselves — however, not mass shootings," she said.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/05/health/mass-shootings-mental-illness-trump/index.html

Hateful rhetoric out there can inspire people. Nothing to do with guns but the MAGABomber was motivated by conservative conspiracy theories. Dylan Roof was motivated by hate.

Point is you can take away guns from mentally ill but it won't stop gun homicides.

[aikoaiko]

93. that APA release was very dissappointing because they completely dodge the mental health issue...

... mass shooters by defining mental illness as one of the major diagnosable psychiatric disorders like schizophrenia, bipolar disorder or major depression and diagnosed. The point many people are making is that mass shooters are not being diagnosed properly, but when they look back they see things that were problematic and could have been helped through treatment.

I know there are some who talk about mental illness and mass shootings because they don't want to talk about gun control.

From my perspective gun control needs to happen, too.

[JonLP24]

94. Other countries have mental illness but no mass shootings

I myself have had schizophrenic like symptoms mostly just psychosis but definitely depression and PTSD I have no desire to hurt anyone. Since I'm not religious (religion is bad for schizophrenia anyway) I only know for sure people have one life and feel taking someone's life is about the lowest thing to do to someone. It is why I want real solutions.

I'm far from a threat though. I have been ripped off so many times, threatened, etc and never retaliated and it was usually people with less mental illness than me victimizing me. It hurts when Trump, NRA, and others blame it on mental illness who most are non-violent.

[AncientGeezer]

80. That was likely from the shotgun Holmes used after the AR jammed.

[JonLP24]

81. I'd have to watch it again to be sure

This was the documentary. Episode 1 was about the Aurora shooting.

https://www.sho.com/active-shooter

[Calculating]

85. And what would 12GA buckshot or a shotgun slug do?

I'm willing to bet that wouldn't be pretty either.

[Kaleva]

88. This would include single shot rifles.