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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsMy arguments vs. my conservative cousins
Okay... I've been trying to go on the offensive as much as possible... I'm sick of hiding my liberal leanings with the conservative side of my family and I'm sick of their anti-Obama status updates on Facebook. So. Here's what I've got. Um... I hope I'm not misrepresenting anything.
The status update was praising Paul Ryan and Mitt Romney's RNC speeches. It's pretty typical, so I won't post it here. My side:
Paul Ryan's speech showed him to be a habitual if not a pathological liar. And as for Romney... he's a vulture capitalist who made his fortune by gutting established businesses; handed Bain Capital, he didn't "build it," just ran it, and d...
idn't even do more than an average job of it, never posting great returns for its stock holders. While he was in charge and up until 2004, Bain owned shares in a medical waste firm that made money off of aborted fetuses. Oh, and he's also very likely a tax dodger. And to top off the pie, he wants to cut all government funding for PBS, which would very likely leave me unemployed. So. Yeah. Romney. Not gonna vote for him.
Factcheck Ryan: http://factcheck.org/2012/08/ryans-vp-spin/
Factcheck Romney: http://factcheck.org/2012/08/romneys-big-night/
Bain Capital: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/greed-and-debt-the-true-story-of-mitt-romney-and-bain-capital-20120829
Aborted fetuses: http://ncronline.org/news/politics/which-presidential-candidate-truly-pro-life
They asked me "but please don't tell me you're voting for Obama" So, I came back with:
Of course I am. He's been pumping money into student grants, which will be great for me when I go to grad school in a couple years; he supports grants for the arts, one of those being the grant that supports PBS, which will mean I'll have ...
a job; Obamacare will allow me to get out from under the crushing weight of a $500/mo insurance plan (though single-payer would still be better). And he believes in the government stimulus model for getting our economy back on track (which is working) rather than the failed trickle-down economics theory supported by Romney. And, not unimportant among my reasons for voting for Obama: a vote not for Obama is a vote for Romney, and as I said, I will not vote for Romney
Someone piped up that Obama would cut 50% of the DoD budget and leave us open for more 9-11-like attacks. My response:
Firstly, the US's military budget is grotesquely bloated. Our military spending makes up 41% of all of the military spending worldwide; we spend as much on our military as the next 14 countries *combined* (and roughly 7x more than China). ...
Secondly, this 50% cut was a result of the failure of the deficit supercommittee (of which Ryan was a part and a leader of the faction that voted against the committee's recommendations) and the sequestration; the automatic 50% cuts were pushed through by the Republican House leadership. And finally, let's not forget where this "crushing" deficit came from in the first place:
Spending under presidents since Eisenhower: http://tinyurl.com/bmr9nra
Top 5 military spenders in 2011: http://tinyurl.com/8sqm97l
Fact-checking Ryan (see Deficit Commission): http://tinyurl.com/9ygfjxt
Mandatory Budget Cuts: http://tinyurl.com/d6zz29f
The only response to this was my uncle: "bull shit." Great counter-argument, that. Anyway. I guess I'm looking for encouragement or, I don't know... I feel like it's a lonely battle I fight on the Book of Faces sometimes.
CaliforniaPeggy
(151,382 posts)Keep hammering away with the facts.
Challenge them to disprove what you know to be true.
They won't be able to.
You've done some excellent work! And....you are not alone!
ohheckyeah
(9,314 posts)over GWB more times than I can say. He thought I was just terrible for not supporting Bush. Just before the last election, my Dad called one night and said "you were right. I'm embarrassed to have voted for Bush once, much less twice." My dad is now a very enthusiastic and vocal Obama supporter now.
Don't give up.
B Calm
(28,762 posts)My uncle quit e-mailing me after I did that. I was trying my best to stop his right wing forwarding e-mails and that was all it took! I guess he didn't like being called ignorant, LOL.
nenagh
(1,925 posts)Quite surprising...you are trying to enlighten people who are probably Fox viewers,,
So I'd start by emailing the surprising ( to me). Videos of Fox news people fact checking Ryan or Romney,
I'd think right wingers might actually listen more to a commentator they accepted as part of Fox...
After you destabilize their belief system., you can add more facts...
Just an idea,,, but then I live in Canada.
tomm2thumbs
(13,297 posts)they see that 'seal of approval' on the web page and start to read it more seriously
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)Strega Ribiera
(46 posts)is a good way to attempt to get them to see reality. Some of them won't no matter how many facts you give them. I have a RW friend on FB. When ever she starts her shit, I correct her. Give her a link with my proof. She usually shuts up and goes away. I have no illusions that I'm enlightening her, or that I'll persuade her to see the truth.
One of my go to blogs is HgTransEcon. http://hg.scmith.net Check it out if you'd like.
Blue Belle
(5,912 posts)But most of the time they come back with, "What? Why should I believe anything the New York Times has to say" or something else in the "evil liberal media biased" vein.
The Doctor.
(17,266 posts)... Is my favorite, and immediate response to people that tell me anything I've said is 'bullshit'. I hold my hand out and say, "Wanna bet?". Most of the time they just shake their head like they 'can't be bothered', but I don't let them off that easy. I immediately say (something to the effect of), "Of course you won't. Talk is cheap so you'll never put your money where your mouth is."
It shuts them Right. The. Fuck. Down.
As for the ones who've taken the bet, I'm probably up around + $400.... without ever having paid out.
Take something you're sure of, stick it in their faces, and do exactly that. Once they're mollified, you have a window to play the nice guy. My tact:
"Look, it's not your fault. The wealthiest elite make sure that a huge segment of the population is misinformed by sources like Fox 'News' and Rush. They've spent tens if not hundreds of millions making sure people believe things that aren't true. If I were you, I'd be pissed off that they did that to me."
They rarely admit I'm right, but I've seen family members drift slowly away from Fox and 'conservatism' after such engagements.
You did great, BTW. Don't ever stop. We MUST get through to those closest to us if we stand any chance of averting fascism in the US in our lifetimes.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)annabanana
(52,791 posts)And who among us couldn't use the extra cash these days?
(And for those who don't NEED the extra cash, I know a few campaigns that could put it to good use)
GCP
(8,166 posts)You didn't resort to name-calling, just gave them the facts. Whether or not they listen is up to them, but you stayed courteous and that means a lot.
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)The military budget is over $600 billion/year and that does not count everything
The military budget is not being cut 50%
It is being cut $1 trillion over ten years, that works out to be $100 billion per year
These are the facts as I know them
patrice
(47,992 posts)This is an interesting story, because it shows exactly how Romney's fortune is the result of DEBT and GOVERNMENT HANDOUTS.
Mitt Romney is a WEALTHFARE QUEEN:
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-federal-bailout-that-saved-mitt-romney-20120829#ixzz24y8ORBCE
freshwest
(53,661 posts)coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)country controls 40% of its wealth and 10% controls 80% of its wealth. Are your family members in the top 1% or even top 10%? I'm guessing not.
They are not in the top 1% and neither are you. Right there you've created at least the beginnings of class consciousness and class solidarity.
You can even push the envelope by asking them whether they consider it moral that 1% of the country controls 40% of its wealth and, if someone like your uncle says 'yes,' continue the Socratic dialogue by going 'Why?' Often when people have to explain their reasoning, the act of having to explain it causes them to see the holes in it.
tomm2thumbs
(13,297 posts)they'll NEVER admit it... but it is the damn truth
this is an argument that will never be heard, but in time they will figure it out. My mom now laments the Palin choice, while at the time she was high-five'ing my sister. An she just railed on McCain's appearance at the convention.... yes, the one she voted for 4 years ago.
she's got a lot to learn about the issues but since pro-choice is one of her big ones, I do think reminding them of what is exactly in the Republican Platform is important. It's black and white and they can't refute it. When I remind her of what they say, she sighs.
Keep at it.
We won't necessarily know if it pays off, but we do know that NOT doing something will only leave them wallowing in the ignorance that FoxNews and Rush and others vomit out endlessly... repeating it in hopes that it sinks in as a truth.
Counter that with repeated facts and I'm guessing even the most resistant of family members eventually will have to put fact against fiction and get it. They may still vote (R), but at least they aren't going to be the rah-rah party that stirs up others, makes calls, or does the real legwork that wins elections.
Keep at it. Water with just a little sand can smooth stones.
nobodyspecial
(2,286 posts)He is still a black (I know, biracial but that's how they see him) man with a black wife and black children. You can't forget how much racism is driving their hatred of him. You can see it in the names they call him and his wife and how they are portrayed.
LiberalAndProud
(12,799 posts)If we are persistent in presenting the truth without belittling the concerns of our opponents, we can sway opinions. It may be imperceptible, but it is.
Sherman A1
(38,958 posts)jb5150
(1,234 posts)... remember K B Toys, and go from there......
WCGreen
(45,558 posts)You can't handle the truth...
To your facebook friends....
Sherman A1
(38,958 posts)This is a great collection of links to use.
rosesaylavee
(12,126 posts)Both females. Both po'd at Obama for raising taxes on tanning salons mainly.
Sigh.
BarackTheVote
(938 posts)for all the feed-back and encouragement! I don't think I'll ever have an effect... these are people who were raised practically from birth with Rush Limpballs in the background. But I still asked my cousins to at least read the links, and told him if he wanted to send me any links back, I'd look at them... I've gots no fear of being proven wrong LOL... One of their friends PM'ed me just this morning, and it kind of made things worth it:
Just read your post on Lyin' Ryan & Mitt the Twit..... I don't know you, but you may just be my new hero......thanks for your insight and intelligence!!!!!!
That's the thing I like about Facebook, you might just be posting your own status update, or you might just be having an argument with a friend over theirs, but that sh*t gets seen
Also, Angry Dragon, thanks for the clarification. I knew that didn't sound right when the # popped up.
Generic Brad
(14,357 posts)Like on 9/11, and the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, and the 2008 financial meltdown?