E-cigarette panic is ruining "biggest public health opportunity" in 120 years, scientist says

[jayfish]

E-cigarette panic is ruining "biggest public health opportunity" in 120 years, scientist says

One of the web's most talked-about pro-vaping videos is an experiment comparing the effects of tobacco cigarettes and e-cigarettes on the lungs, put out by England's top public health agency.

"My research shows that e-cigarettes are significantly less harmful than cigarettes," said Dr. Lion Shahab, an associate professor at University College London.

Public Health England describes e-cigarettes as "at least 95% less harmful" than tobacco cigarettes.

Dr. David Abrams, a professor at New York University, said that he thinks that's a fair estimate. "Actually, I would go further," he said. "I think there's no evidence from looking at the cancer biomarkers, that it could be as high as 98% or 99% for cancer."

Abrams said he's worried that the panic over e-cigarette-linked illnesses will distract from the public health benefits they could offer.

[spanone]

1. a complete distraction from banning other killers.....imho

[Moostache]

2. Did everyone expect Big Tobacco to just go away and die in a corner somewhere????

They may not hold nearly the sway that they once did in the USA (prior to that disastrous Congressional hearing where they had the CEOs all deny nicotine was addictive and smoking was not a cause of cancer), but Big Tobacco is a global thing and the profits they make are STILL staggering...

Safer or not, bigger or smaller, vaping was a threat that HAD to be quelled by any means necessary...but in all honesty, if someone is dumb enough to return to smoking instead of quitting or vaping or weaning off via vaping, well, they are not going to win the Darwin Award, but they as a group should be given honorable mention status.

[coti]

3. Yeah, and this approach is pretty insidious, using the public's own fear and disgust toward tobacco

and programs already in place against tobacco to try to destroy the very thing that will be most effective in abating tobacco use. Just as with typical Trumpism, if the public can't be smarter than this the bad guys are going to win, again.

[jayfish]

5. We had To Kill The Vapers To Save Them.

Vapers seek relief from nicotine addiction by turning to cigarettes

Even though McClain knows the dangers of cigarettes — lung cancer runs in his family — he thinks it might be easier to kick cigarettes than his Juul. Plus, his mom keeps warning him about the mysterious vaping-related illnesses that have sickened hundreds across the country.

[Act_of_Reparation]

6. No, but I didn't expect a bunch of people on my side of the aisle to do their dirty work.

[TreasonousBastard]

4. I remember when I gave up a three pack a day habit-- it was hell. If...

vaping was available back then it would have helped a lot. And vaping also helps a lot of those times when you can't light up.

Vaping is far less harmful simply because there is no smoke cloud.

[Brainstormy]

7. I sincerely believe that vaping saved my life

I had smoked for 40 years and tried EVERYTHING. I vaped for about six months. Stopped coughing and being short of breath almost immediately. Noticed one day that I hadn't vaped at all and it was 2:00 p.m. That was the end of it.

[coti]

12. It may have, and it's going to save quite literally millions more lives. nt

[mathematic]

8. Teens that vape are 3x more likely to start smoking than teens that dont

Fucking tired of all these ex-smokers talking about how great vaping is and ignoring the actual public health crisis: NEWLY ADDICTED PEOPLE TO NICOTINE.

And all this Big Tobacco anti-vaping conspiracy stuff is utter nonsense. They've been trying to figure out how to addict the next generation since forever and barely-regulated vaping was PERFECT for that. The biggest vaping company, juul, is 1/3rd owned by altria (phillip morris) and the second biggest is owned by British American Tobacco (rj reynolds)! Big tobacco is profiting just fine on vaping.

These two things can be true:
1. Vaping is good because it helped you quit smoking
2. Vaping is a public health hazard that should be as tightly regulated as cigarettes.

#1 is true because cigarettes are terrible. #2 is true because teenagers getting hooked on nicotine makes more cigarette smokers.

[jayfish]

9. That's Just About The Most Illogical Thing I've Heard OnThis.

The idea is not original to you either. Do you believe MJ is a gateway to cocaine or heroin?

[mathematic]

10. It's not logical that nicotine addicts would seek nicotine?

The idea isn't original to me because it's literally a result of a scientific study on teen smoking.

I'm frankly surprised. You talk about how great vaping is to help you quit smoking so I figured you weren't thinking about the real public health crisis of vaping, which is NEWLY ADDICTED PEOPLE TO NICOTINE. But it turns out that you just don't care about those NEWLY ADDICTED PEOPLE TO NICOTINE because of how much you love vaping.

[coti]

15. Your crusade is incredibly misguided.

You don't know what you're talking about and your ideas do damage to public health.

[virgogal]

16. Nicotine,marijuana,alcohol......no difference,none good.

[mr_lebowski]

30. Show me your friggin studies that show that 'teens who vape are 3x more likely to smoke' ...

I don't believe you.

And if the name on this so-called study is Dr. Stanton Glanz, I'll tell ya right now ... it's bullshit.

[TwilightZone]

51. Here you go.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2723425

The source is the Journal of the American Medical Association. There was a lot of media coverage of the study earlier this year.

[dchill]

27. I believe that water is a gateway drink to bootleg hooch.

[Doremus]

49. lol very astute and correct too. nt

[UniteFightBack]

36. This plus 1000. nt

[coti]

13. Why would teens smoke cigarettes if they get their nicotine through vaping?

Vaping is better than cigarettes in pretty much every single way. Why would they switch to something disgusting, more expensive, and immensely less-healthy when they already associate their nicotine use with vaping?

It looks to me like you've villified nicotine instead of tobacco. They're not the same thing.

[coti]

14. You know, I guess there could be a situation where I'd see a teen switching from vaping to tobacco:

There not being vaping materials around anymore.

[stopdiggin]

18. bingo!

vaping has been (and should continue to be) an enormous public health benefit -- if the chicken little hysteria is not allowed to hold sway.
Not a particular fan of ANY industry (and particularly an addictive one) target marketing the young. But the health benefits of vaping versus smoking cigarettes is overwhelming -- both on an individual and a collective level. Science should prevail in this debate. And people that believe in science should start supporting the right side.

[mr_lebowski]

39. They don't target/market to the young, I've certainly never seen/heard of that ...

The whole 'oooh, the juices taste sweet/like candy or fruit therefore they're marketing to young people' argument is bullshit. People of all ages like sweet/fruit flavors, period.

[dchill]

29. And they want to make it happen!

[Leith]

17. I would like to see your valid, indisputable source, please

Since you seem to be completely certain of what you say, you should be able to (and you should have already) show us where you get your information.

There is one fact that I have never seen in the numerous threads about vaping: you can vape without nicotine. When you are getting a bottle of e-juice, you must specify the level of nicotine for them to add. One of the levels available is 0 (zero).

In my opinion, people who scream bloody murder about vaping are merely transferring their hatred of smoking tobacco to seeing people exhale mist. A few years ago, an anti-smoking crusader told me that my peppermint e-juice smelled just like tobacco smoke to her. I refrained from telling her that she was full of shit.

What's next? Yelling about breathing when it's cold out because somebody exhales steam? The anti-vape arguments are just that stupid.

[jayfish]

19. It Exists But...

It's not an observational or experimental study.

It basically asked kids if they smoked within the last 30 days and asked kids if they vaped within the last 30 days. Then, somehow, came to the conclusion that vaping leads to smoking.

Longitudinal Outcome Measures
E-Cigarette Use
E-cigarette use was measured at each wave by asking, “Have you ever tried an e-cigarette?” (yes or no) and, “How many days out of the past 30 days did you use e-cigarettes?” (open-ended response, 0–30).

Cigarette Use
Cigarette use was measured at each wave by asking, “Have you ever tried a cigarette, even just 1 or 2 puffs?” (yes or no) and, “During the past 30 days, on how many days did you smoke a cigarette (even just 1 or 2 puffs)?” Categorical response options included the following: “none,” “1 day,” “2 days,” “3 to 5 days,” “6 to 10 days,” “11 to 20 days,” “21 to 28 days,” and “everyday.”

Past-month cigarette and e-cigarette use outcomes were modeled as binary variables with a logit link function. School was included as a covariate across all waves to account for potential school cohort effects. Path models were used to simultaneously estimate the following: (1) the autoregressive direct effects within cigarette and e-cigarette use across waves (ie, the association between e-cigarette and cigarette use at each wave and use of the same product at the next wave) and (2) the reciprocal predictive pathways between e-cigarette and cigarette use at each wave to use of the other product at the next wave (eg, e-cigarette use at wave 1 predicting cigarette use at wave 2 and vice versa)

Pretty weak sauce.

[mathematic]

21. This study was widely reported when it was released

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2723425

Here's a story in the popular press:
https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/1/18206902/vaping-cigarettes-smoking-health-teens-students-epidemic-jama

I didn't bother linking the study because, what's the point? This thread is full of motivated vapers and nobody reads links anyway. Besides, I can get a lot of people to commit to their obviously wrong arguments and THEN give them the link so they can't backtrack, waffle, or otherwise move the goalposts. In the end, it's not my responsibility to post links to everything I refer to in my comments, even though I often do. Whether you think this a stylistically appropriate commenting form or not is not germane to the issue at hand.

[jayfish]

23. Right From You Own Link...

Today’s study, published in the journal JAMA Network Open, couldn’t say whether vaping caused the kids to go on to smoking.

[mathematic]

24. Yeah, because that wasn't the type of study to do that

Not every type of scientific study can establish every type of scientific fact. This one shows that teens that vape are THREE TIMES more likely to become smokers than teens that don't. It simply measured the number of vaping teens and then two years later measured the number of smoking teens.

You're saying, well gosh, I guess that it's a giant fucking coincidence that teens addicted to nicotine via vaping decide to use other nicotine products like cigarettes.

The study also says that the relationship was seen especially in low-risk teens. But all coincidence! Sure thing.

I'm positive that there is no type of study that can be designed that can convince you that teen vaping is a bad thing because scientific evidence is not the basis of your conviction. So why bother with the window dressing? Why bother talking about the science at all?

[mr_lebowski]

40. Your whole point was 'kids who start out vaping are 3x more likely to go on to smoke'!!1!

When the VERY STUDY YOU POSTED AS 'PROOF' ... specifically says "Today’s study, published in the journal JAMA Network Open, couldn’t say whether vaping caused the kids to go on to smoking."

You were very clearly suggesting vaping leads to smoking when your study doesn't say that, and so you're resorting to spouting smart-aleck 'herpty derp guess it's all a big coincidence!' comments instead, based on your anecdotal belief that 'more nicotine users means more smokers', when that's really not proven.

Furthermore, I'm pretty damn sure that the PURPOSE of that study was to indeed to determine whether teen vaping led to teen smoking ... and was set up to prove that very thing. But in the end had to admit they couldn't establish that fact, statistically.

How about you try this article on for size, which extensively quotes the Prestigious Royal College of Physicians in the UK?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jacobsullum/2016/04/28/royal-college-of-physicians-says-e-cigarettes-can-prevent-almost-all-the-harm-from-smoking/#6a2b6c1949b8

Are e-cigarettes a gateway to smoking?

Critics of e-cigarettes worry that they will “renormalize” smoking and increase its incidence by fostering nicotine addiction among people who otherwise never would have used tobacco. But there is very little evidence that is happening. To the contrary, smoking rates and vaping rates are moving in opposite directions, and regular use of e-cigarettes does not seem to have much appeal among people who have never smoked.

“There is no evidence that either NRT or e-cigarette use has resulted in renormalisation of smoking,” the RCP says. “None of these products has to date attracted significant use among adult never-smokers, or demonstrated evidence of significant gateway progression into smoking among young people.”

Lastly, your notion that having a bunch of nicotine addicts is a 'health emergency' is likewise UNPROVEN. There's no evidence that vaping nicotine is harmful whatsoever, actually. You are just SURE it must be.

[mr_lebowski]

44. The study doesn't show that teen vaping causes teen smoking, it's that simple ...

Which is what seemed to be your point based on your commentary taken as a whole.

Just because the authors of the study in the end said they 'cannot establish causal relations' doesn't mean that didn't INTEND to ... in the first place. But either way, that's not really that important of a point I'm making here.

The fact of the matter is no matter how you study something like this, you absolutely never know whether the teen that started vaping ... wouldn't have started smoking instead if there was no vaping available.

That's why causality of this nature ... is nearly impossible to prove.

[Autumn]

11. I quite using a vape pen. After 20 years of smokingit took me a month and a half. To this day

7 years later, I have never had a single craving for a cigarette. I think this is all bull. They should have found out which vape manufacture used the chemicals that suddenly made people sick. But I imagine that would piss off the tobacco companies and we can't have that.

[stopdiggin]

20. still strongly suspect bootleg product

and just because you bought something at the corner market doesn't mean it's legit. remember bath salts?

[blueinredohio]

31. Also how many of these people added thc?

Quite a few cases that were talked about did.

[ck4829]

25. K&R

[dchill]

26. I replaced cigarettes with ecigs 10 years ago last June...

I'm feeling fine and never felt better. Just one man's story. And I'm sticking to it.

[USALiberal]

35. I just stopped smoking. Easier. Nt

[Mariana]

46. The way that works is the best way for anyone to quit smoking. nt.

[jayfish]

48. That Works For Very, Very, Few.

I admire your success but it's not a viable option for most. If it was the global smoking cessation market wouldn't be projected to hit $4.4b by 2023.

[NCLefty]

28. How many people are vaping who never smoked? Must be a lot of young people, with it so ubiquitous.

It's still nicotine addiction, and probably lifelong.

[shanti]

41. I don't vape (nicotine)

but aren't juul and other nicotine carts subject to the same restrictions as cigs? The carts in question have been mostly black market THC carts.

[unitedwethrive]

32. As a physician, I think a good solution would be to make them available by prescription

as a smoking cessation aid. There is clearly a place for vape pens in helping wean people off cigarettes, but having them widely available to the public makes them an easily attainable gateway drug for teens.

[UniteFightBack]

37. Then cigarettes should be by prescription too. nt

[Mariana]

47. Hey, we gotta have priorities, here. nt.

[jayfish]

45. So I Can Be Beholden To Big Pharma Instead of Big Tobacco?

No thanks. I'm perfectly capable of managing this issue for myself.

[Doremus]

50. Gateway? From e-cigs to tobacco? Why????

cigarettes are more expensive, less socially acceptable (yes, even and especially in teen circles) and less attainable (most places card until after age 40).

Please tell us how this gateway thing would work?

[virgogal]

52. The nicotine gum was originally prescription only.Was

that considered a gateway? This entire thing is mass hysteria,no more,no less.

[Newest Reality]

33. Studies.

I still think it is about a change or adulterants. Studies I have read did not indicate major hazards and deaths. Something is wrong, but it's not what people are jumping to conclusions from. Hysteria is so common these days and that's a concern in itself.

Here are just a couple.

Royal College Of Physicians Says E-Cigarettes Can 'Prevent Almost All The Harm From Smoking'
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jacobsullum/2016/04/28/royal-college-of-physicians-says-e-cigarettes-can-prevent-almost-all-the-harm-from-smoking/#7c77b51149b8

Long-term vaping 'far safer than smoking' says 'landmark' study
https://www.nhs.uk/news/heart-and-lungs/long-term-vaping-far-safer-than-smoking-says-landmark-study/

[TidalWave46]

34. The industry needs to be properly regulated.

Not eliminated. Overreaction sucks. The damn near lack of any reaction since they came out also sucks.

[madville]

38. States are.upset vaping has cut into their tobacco tax revenue

When you start affecting the bottom line they will attempt to protect the revenue stream.

If all this hysteria was really about health then tobacco should have been banned long ago.

[shanti]

42. the vast majority

of the hysteria isn't about nicotine carts, it's about thc carts. but they knew that. they're being extrapolated because they can.