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kpete

(71,986 posts)
Sun Sep 22, 2019, 09:30 AM Sep 2019

New York Times debunks Trump and their own reporter's claims within 48 hours.

And here’s the New York Times within 48 hours after Ken Vogel’s interview:

“No evidence has surfaced to support Mr. Trump’s claim that the former vice president intentionally tried to help his son by pressing for the prosecutor general’s dismissal.






**************


This is a very useful thread by an expert on Ukraine and corruption. It seems notable that the people who know the most about Ukraine are the most adamant that this Hunter Biden story is bogus.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1175203002870849536.html


29 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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New York Times debunks Trump and their own reporter's claims within 48 hours. (Original Post) kpete Sep 2019 OP
Vogel sounded like he was auditioning for FOX. blm Sep 2019 #1
He is way too nuanced for Fox -- and it is that nuance that gets him in trouble here karynnj Sep 2019 #7
I read a lengthy NewYorker article when Biden decided to run, and blm Sep 2019 #9
Exactly cannabis_flower Sep 2019 #26
" His integrity, that I don't think was ever questioned over his long career, is being challenged" pangaia Sep 2019 #21
NYT increases their credibility by admitting their mistakes - where trump continually empedocles Sep 2019 #2
He will claim the switch from NYT is proof of their fake news pandr32 Sep 2019 #24
They have entirely too many misdirected smears to clean up. They aren't comradebillyboy Sep 2019 #27
In this relative world, as media sources go, . . , empedocles Sep 2019 #29
Good for them!!! Mike 03 Sep 2019 #3
She didn't take the bait and basically ignored that part of the interview oregonjen Sep 2019 #8
Right. Polly Hennessey Sep 2019 #14
Never ever forget malaise Sep 2019 #15
Well justie18 Sep 2019 #20
We shall see about NYT . . Iliyah Sep 2019 #4
Indeed, it looks like the Times is going to give Joe the"Hillary treatment"...nt comradebillyboy Sep 2019 #28
Facts are hard, aren't they, Kenny? spooky3 Sep 2019 #5
For the sake or accuracy... paleotn Sep 2019 #6
The Biden Accusations Had Been Vetted and Disproved Previously. Why Doesn't NYT Clearly Say That? Indykatie Sep 2019 #10
The damage is done. Miguelito Loveless Sep 2019 #11
Too little, too late... Wounded Bear Sep 2019 #12
Does Vogel still if have a job at NYT? Yep. AJT Sep 2019 #13
"Within 48 hours" TOO LATE. Editorial process didn't stop this. Hortensis Sep 2019 #16
My local radio wingnut talk hosts are readying to go full Benghazi on BIDEN about Ukraine UTUSN Sep 2019 #17
That article is quite light on substance. However... Roland99 Sep 2019 #18
Joy Reed AM Joy is discussing this now. BigmanPigman Sep 2019 #19
2016 all over again Sunsky Sep 2019 #22
I cancelled my NYT subscription this morning UpInArms Sep 2019 #23
Did that 8 years ago kpete Sep 2019 #25

karynnj

(59,503 posts)
7. He is way too nuanced for Fox -- and it is that nuance that gets him in trouble here
Sun Sep 22, 2019, 10:18 AM
Sep 2019

The current NYT view that JOE BIDEN did nothing questionable does not contradict what Vogel actually said. However, his saying that Hunter's role could be a liability and implying that Hunter Biden's role gave Joe Biden a conflict of interest are then read and tweeted as Joe Biden having done something unethical. As every fact checker has said, nothing Biden or the Obama administration did was a consequence of Hunter Biden's position.

Joe Biden, like many many previous Presidents and candidates, has a relative who has far lower standards than he does. Even the most ethical President we had for decades, Jimmy Carter, had Billy Carter as a brother.

However, with Trump - HE is the most unethical, amoral, dishonest person to ever be President.

Part of what is happening here - as in 2016 - is that the NYT and other media are investigating both parties and are writing stories on what they found. If this were the 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, this would be exactly what is needed as investigative journalism. However, it creates the view that BOTH sides are corrupt -- and for those without time to read the full articles, they are seen as equally corrupt. Add to this that the right labels all mainstream sources as partisan and biased against them. For them, this renders anything against Trump and other Republicans just noise.

Here, what might be needed is papers, like the NYT, to put accusations in perspective. Here, early in the article, they should have stated that JOE Biden did nothing wrong ... and Hunter Biden has not been proven to have done anything other than to accept a very lucrative position that created the APPEARANCE of conflict of interest. More likely, this was actually something I don't know the word for and which I doubt is illegal - he may have used the perception in Ukraine that he was close to the administration to get that position. I wish he would have been pushed not to put the Obama's administration's reputation at risk, but as a private citizen, he was not under any of the laws, guidelines etc.

I can't imagine how this feels to Joe Biden. His integrity, that I don't think was ever questioned over his long career, is being challenged. Beyond that, the emphasis is on his already troubled son. I remember reading that his family knew they would be attacked. Their decision to support Joe says a huge amount. They saw the level the Republicans in every election since 2004 have sunk to. Their willingness to endure this shows their faith in Biden's ability to be a good President and their love for him.

blm

(113,052 posts)
9. I read a lengthy NewYorker article when Biden decided to run, and
Sun Sep 22, 2019, 10:27 AM
Sep 2019

It pretty well explained Hunter’s path, and it fell short of anything illegal by Joe Biden. But, when did GOP ever care about that....they attack and investigate Dems for just an appearance of impropriety. They are despicable creatures who lie as easily as they breathe.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/07/08/will-hunter-biden-jeopardize-his-fathers-campaign

cannabis_flower

(3,764 posts)
26. Exactly
Sun Sep 22, 2019, 01:48 PM
Sep 2019

Trump has even called for Obama to be investigated for a book he's written after he was no longer President.

pangaia

(24,324 posts)
21. " His integrity, that I don't think was ever questioned over his long career, is being challenged"
Sun Sep 22, 2019, 11:16 AM
Sep 2019

This seems to be the whole point.. Doesn;t matter the facts, just put some shit out there and there are enough ignorant, lazy people out there to possibly sink Biden... or at least cause him trouble...

empedocles

(15,751 posts)
2. NYT increases their credibility by admitting their mistakes - where trump continually
Sun Sep 22, 2019, 09:35 AM
Sep 2019

contradicts himself and refuses to admit mistakes.

pandr32

(11,581 posts)
24. He will claim the switch from NYT is proof of their fake news
Sun Sep 22, 2019, 12:32 PM
Sep 2019

...and failing. As far as he goes he thinks admitting a mistake is akin to being weak.

comradebillyboy

(10,144 posts)
27. They have entirely too many misdirected smears to clean up. They aren't
Sun Sep 22, 2019, 03:13 PM
Sep 2019

as dishonest as Fox but the Times is hardly a bastion of integrity.

Mike 03

(16,616 posts)
3. Good for them!!!
Sun Sep 22, 2019, 09:38 AM
Sep 2019

Nicole Wallace usually has sound judgment; I don't even understand why she had Vogel on to discuss this.

justie18

(169 posts)
20. Well
Sun Sep 22, 2019, 11:07 AM
Sep 2019

I have been watching her show regularly so watched that interview live, in horror. If she ever has him on again, I am done with her.

paleotn

(17,912 posts)
6. For the sake or accuracy...
Sun Sep 22, 2019, 10:12 AM
Sep 2019

immediately fire the rogue reporters. No, I'm serious. On Monday morning, make them clean out their desks and get the hell out. NYTs has more than enough factual reporters to cover for them.

Wounded Bear

(58,648 posts)
12. Too little, too late...
Sun Sep 22, 2019, 10:35 AM
Sep 2019
"Lies travel around the world before truth gets its boots on." -- Mark Twain.

That folksy aphorism has never been more true in the age of the internet. It's why Trump likes Twitter. He can get his lies out there, and the "corrections" like the NYT put out above largely get ignored. Truth and facts take time to investigate and sink in. Tweets go out and are re-tweeted and literally millions of people will hear of them long before legitimate reporting can catch up.

Healthy skepticism fails when people approach this shit with religious fervor.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
16. "Within 48 hours" TOO LATE. Editorial process didn't stop this.
Sun Sep 22, 2019, 10:56 AM
Sep 2019

That is damning, as is leaving it out there for 2 days before deciding the lie exposure benefit versus the condemnation received cost was optimal.

The AP hung much tougher when they left a blatant lie about Hillary, widely debunked the hour it came out, blanketing the nation for either 10 or 14 days.

UTUSN

(70,686 posts)
17. My local radio wingnut talk hosts are readying to go full Benghazi on BIDEN about Ukraine
Sun Sep 22, 2019, 11:01 AM
Sep 2019

I've been sending them the Bloomberg article of May 16 debunking in detail and others to preempt them.






Roland99

(53,342 posts)
18. That article is quite light on substance. However...
Sun Sep 22, 2019, 11:01 AM
Sep 2019

The reference back to Vogel’s May article is hyperlinked with the text: “no evidence”

Seems a not so subtle dig st their own reporter.

BigmanPigman

(51,590 posts)
19. Joy Reed AM Joy is discussing this now.
Sun Sep 22, 2019, 11:02 AM
Sep 2019

She is saying that the NY Times is doing the same thing that they did in 2016 and the emails. Their headlines are doing bothsidesism. Not only that but the story is false and Vogel screwed up. Why is the Times not learning their lesson?

She even mentioned the Uranium One story. This is worse than 2016 (Hillary wrote that it is the same as 2016).

Sunsky

(1,737 posts)
22. 2016 all over again
Sun Sep 22, 2019, 11:18 AM
Sep 2019

Misinformation spreads like wildfire. It doesn't matter if they correct it, the distortion is already out there. How about improving the standards of your newsroom NYT? Seems as if your journalist had no problems misrepresenting the facts.

UpInArms

(51,282 posts)
23. I cancelled my NYT subscription this morning
Sun Sep 22, 2019, 11:45 AM
Sep 2019

I refuse to support their damaging lies (first Judith Miller and now, Ken Vogel) ever again

I told them exactly that

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