Governor Weld: "Pressuring a foreign country to interfere is treason," Penalty is death

[grantcart]

“Talk about pressuring a foreign country to interfere with and control a U.S. election. It couldn’t be clearer, and that’s not just undermining democratic institutions. That is treason. It’s treason, pure and simple, and the penalty for treason under the U.S. code is death. That’s the only penalty.”

— Former Gov. William Weld (R), quoted by the Washington Post.


My guess is there is going to be an official resolution to start impeachment inquiries by Friday.

[NewJeffCT]

1. And, don't give me this "not a declared war" BS

if it came out that somebody helped Japan in their attack on Pearl Harbor, I think most would consider it treason even if the war hadn't yet been declared.

Same with the attacks on the US elections in 2016 - aiding and abetting the attack doesn't make it less of a national betrayal because the new age of war hadn't been declared

[Hermit-The-Prog]

3. U.S. Constitution backs you up

It does not limit "enemies" to those with whom we are engaged in acts of war.

It does, however, leave declaration of punishment to Congress. I'm not a lawyer, but that may be where people get the notion that it requires a war -- the code declaring punishment may define enemies in a limited fashion.

[onenote]

6. Okay. How do you define "enemy" then?

A country with which we have diplomatic relations. Give significant financial assistance. Is the subject of unanimous bipartisan Congressional resolutions supporting it and condemning Russian aggression. That has never been identified as an "enemy" under the "Trading with the Enemies Act."

That country is an "enemy"? No its not.

The Supreme Court, in 1863, offered the following explanation of the term "enemy" as used in the Constitution's treason clause: "The term “enemies,” as used in the second clause, according to its settled meaning, at the time the constitution was adopted, applies only to
the subjects of a foreign power in a state of open hostility with us."

[Hermit-The-Prog]

17. Putin has attacked the basis of our democracy

If Putin's attacks are not sufficient "open hostility", then I don't know what is.

[onenote]

24. Weld's comments were about Trump and the Ukraine, not Russia.

And if Russia wasn't an enemy during the Cold War, it almost certainly isn't one now.

But here's a question: was I guilty of treason when I marched against the War in Vietnam and counseled those who wanted to avoid the draft, thereby giving "aid and comfort" to an enemy?

[Hermit-The-Prog]

43. Weld's comments were goofy

I think Trump is guilty of multiple acts of treason with regards to Russia.

As to your question, no, of course marching in protest against a war is not treason. The Constitution requires an overt act that amounts to levying war or aids and comforts the enemy. See, e.g., Cramer v. United States, 325 U.S. 1 (1945) (the full opinion, the syllabus doesn't give much help with the reasoning of the court).

Edit to add:
Unless Weld considers that pressuring to amount to levying war against the U.S., or perhaps aiding and comforting Putin, then Trump's alleged acts with respect to the Ukraine are criminal but not treasonous.

[ArcticFox]

53. I would say it aids Russia and Putin

To withhold US defense aid to Ukraine certainly aids those who've invaded and annexed parts of that nation.

It also aids our enemies' goal of keeping Trump in power to corruptly obtain anyone's aid in doing so, especially the aid of foreign persons or governments.

[Hermit-The-Prog]

59. that may be what Weld was thinking

You make sense.

[onenote]

72. it's not what Weld was thinking.

His statement makes no reference, direct or indirect, to Russia. It focuses on trying to get Ukraine to interfere with our election. Weld also misstates the law with respect to the penalty for treason. It was, as another poster stated, "goofy."

"Talk about pressuring a foreign country to interfere with and control a U.S. election,” Weld said during an appearance on MSNBC’s “Morning Joe.” “It couldn’t be clearer, and that’s not just undermining democratic institutions. That is treason. It’s treason, pure and simple, and the penalty for treason under the U.S. code is death. That’s the only penalty.”

[LanternWaste]

62. "...engaged in hostilities, whether or not lawfully authorized, with the United States."

"...any country, government, group, or person that has been engaged in hostilities (international law regulates the conditions for jus ad bellum, updated most recently in 2008 by the Geneva Protocol III), whether or not lawfully authorized, with the United States."

This includes, but is not limited to, any corporation, partnership, or other legal entity; and any organization, association, or group.







Source: 50 USCS § 2204 [Title 50. War and National Defense; Chapter 39. Spoils of War

[onenote]

63. Hostilities any conflict subject to the laws of war.

(9) Hostilities.-The term "hostilities" means any conflict subject to the laws of war.

Source: 10 USC Sec. 948a(9)

[druidity33]

70. Any terrorist is an enemy. WOT, remember? nt.

[OliverQ]

71. I would say Russia is definitely in a state of open hostility with us.

They literally attacked the foundation of our Democracy. They are the very definition of an enemy, therefore Trump aiding and abetting them is treason.

[onenote]

73. Yet we allow travel and trade. We maintain diplomatic relations. We cooperate on various matters

In the history of the world, no two countries that are in a state of "open hostilities" have maintained that sort of relationship.

[sharedvalues]

76. Russia is an enemy and withholding Ukraine foreign aid helps Russia

Trump is extorting Ukraine. That gives aid and comfort to Russia.

Russia is a foreign power in a state of open hostility with us

[rsdsharp]

33. Here is the declaration of punishment.

Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

18 U.S. Code § 2381

[enid602]

48. punishment

Isn't the punishment supposed to be death by hanging? Wlll he be allowed to wear his rug and make up on the big day?

[onenote]

67. No, it's not "supposed" to be death by hanging.

The statute is pretty clear that there is a range of possible penalties.

My guess is that a majority of the people convicted of treason in the nation's history were sentenced to something less than the death penalty.

[triron]

4. Here, here!

[onenote]

5. Is our relationahip with Ukraine today the same as our relationship with Japan in 1941?

[grantcart]

13. Treason is not going to be attached in this instance

because of the very specific language in the Constitution. It goes out of its way to specifically refer to declared war by adding the word "only".

Also Russia is a competing and antagonistic world power but it still does not raise to the level of "enemy". Yes they have interfered with out election, but we have done so with other countries (like Iran) in a much more direct way by instituting coups. We were not "levying war" with those countries and they were not our "enemies", so simply trying disrupt elections doesn't constitute war.

In fact we still have full diplomatic relations with Russia and still cooperate in a number of areas and issues, including the space station and the international agreement with Iran.

So while it is "treason" in the common use of the word it is not in the very narrow Constitutional definition.

However IF it were there is one humorous aspect to it. Here is the Constitution definition:

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

Since Trump has admitted to the act on national television I think we could meet the 2 witness requirement and exceed it by 100 million.

While it doesn't fit the very specific definition of treason in the constitution it flies over by a mile of any definition of "high crimes and misdemeanour".

[sarisataka]

23. Have you considered that maybe,

Just maybe there is a reason that treason is very narrowly defined in the Constitution? Perhaps the writers had seen a government misuse and abusively charge with treason people it wanted to silence. Permanently.

[KPN]

32. +1000!!!

I think the press should be pumping this statement out consistently: that what is going on is indeed treason and carries the penalty of death ... and they would if they had a shred of real patriotism or concern for actual democracy -- but they don't. If the M$M started doing this consistently and extended it to not only tRump, but anyone appointed by tRump or obligated by oath to uphold the Constitution who directly aided and abetted tRump, you would see the GOP fold and get behind impeachment instantly. They are all frigging cowards who care nothing about anything but their own asses.

[elleng]

45. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to

Section 3
their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

https://constitutioncenter.org/interactive-constitution/article/article-iii

[TheRealNorth]

2. Weld is just confirming....

That if a Democrat did what Trump was doing, the right would be screaming and hissing for the death penalty.

[triron]

7. So now is the penalty going to be a sternly worded letter?

[not_the_one]

8. I just wish the politicians and courts had the nerve

to carry through with this punishment. I think we can all be sure that we are not punishing an innocent man, so having a problem with THIS particular act of capital punishment should not be hard to accept as justifiable.

If he is left alive, he will forever be a major thorn in the side of democracy. He would be a voice hard to ignore, and the alt news would make sure we heard it.

Dying alone and in jail sounds nice, but he would still be something to rally around, by his minions, until the inevitable.

It is possible, but a little harder to stir the pot from the grave.

Maybe the French had it right with the guillotine. Publicly. Sell tickets. Quick and easy, so we can get on with healing and rebuilding.

[triron]

9. Wondered when we would get here.

[sarisataka]

21. Shall we institute our own

Committee for Public Safety?

That worked fairly well.

[DENVERPOPS]

25. Okay, Okay, Okay

How about this: A reality show with him as the star.
The camera never leaves him, 24/7.....
Pink Jumpsuit, in the general population of THE WORST prison in Mexico.

I would guess he would brag about the highest viewership of any show in history.

LOL

[KPN]

36. In my view, if there is proof, they pretty much have to or they are guaranteeing that

all of this will happen again. These bigoted, greedy bastards don't understand or respond responsibly to anything that does not completely destroy them. They believe in zero sum as a fact of life -- winner takes all. They have gambled on that basis to this point and it has worked amazingly well for them. They aren't going to change with a slap on the wrist -- which in this case is anything less than the harshest possible penalties for more than just tRump in my opinion.

[triron]

10. knr

[smirkymonkey]

11. I would love to see that!

Won't happen, but it's a nice thought.

[Meadowoak]

81. Fry his fat orange ass in the electric chair, and put it on pay per view, we could pay off the natio

Debt. The entire world would pay to see that.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

12. I wouldn't call it treason. Definitely abuse of the office though.

And various criminal code violations.

[grantcart]

15. Correct but it is a "High Crime"

[Tommy_Carcetti]

16. Oh, yes.

Definitely.

[grantcart]

18. The definition and evidence requirement of treason is very specific in the constitution

As for the requirement of 2 witnesses I would posit that since he has admitted to it on national TV we would exceed the constitutional requirement of witnesses by 100 million.

Can you imagine what his lawyers are thinking as he confesses on TV?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

19. Plus Ukraine couldn't be described as an enemy, even informally.

He was soliciting assistance from a foreign government for his own personal gain.

[grantcart]

20. Neither could Russia

They are a competing and antagonistic adversary but not an enemy. We still have diplomatic relations and cooperate well in a number of fields, like the International Space Station which can only run with the positive actions of the two countries.

Interfering with an election? We have done it dozens (hundreds ?) of times and it is not considered an act of war. Hell, even the Bay of Pigs wasn't considered an act of war, just an "escapade".

[leftstreet]

14. Imagine the ad revenue KFC could get, "Trump's last meal"

[Captain Zero]

26. :-)

[colorado_ufo]

29. I think you just won the Internets!

[world wide wally]

22. Keep pushing the possibilitiy of the death penalty.

Maybe he will agree to resign instead.

[Captain Zero]

27. What about sedition

Does it qualify as Sedition, or is that even a law??

[Ferrets are Cool]

28. Please don't hold your breath.

[slumcamper]

30. Okay. Please proceed! n/t

[Wawannabe]

79. Hehe!

My thought exactly !

[LonePirate]

31. Normally I am opposed to the death penalty but I will waive my objections if he is convicted.

[NurseJackie]

34. That was a nice gesture.

[The Mouth]

35. Nope, this is exactly why

the Rosenbergs were charged with "Espionage".

"Treason" was explicitly and carefully defined exactly because the Crown used it for "Something we don't like".


Without a declaration of war, it CANNOT be treason. Period.

[NurseJackie]

64. 👍

[Renew Deal]

37. That's a hardcore tweet

[KPN]

38. I like it -- even if it is a pipedream!

[Bonx]

39. Reality is overrated

[KPN]

41. Lol ... yes it is ... at least sometimes.

[infullview]

40. Before you line him up against the wall for the firing squad

make sure you dip the bullet in pigs blood.

[Renew Deal]

42. Here is the video

[Doreen]

44. I hate to say this but

governor Weld should be careful. With all of the crap this administration has been pulling they might consider that a death threat on the orange dripping piece of shit. To them it does not matter if it is fact.

[Doreen]

52. I realize that but what I am saying

is that this administration has managed to twist things around and make the law work for them.

Look at what they are doing to the auto companies. They are just about trying to make it illegal to do things to save the environment.

The federal law that states can make their own individual laws is being challenged.

[CCExile]

46. The Espionage Act might be better suited.

[sarisataka]

47. Bloodthirsty Republicans are no surprise

But it is troubling to see "liberals" and "progressives" literally calling for a person's head- no matter who that person is

BTW, death is not the only penalty for treason

[brutus smith]

49. Treason? Hell, we can't even start impeachment proceedings.

[Wawannabe]

80. Brutal

Brutus.

[Canoe52]

51. I am totally against the death penalty...

But life in prison for him with pictures of everyone he’s ever hurt glued to the walls of his cell would be fitting.

[Miguelito Loveless]

55. Can somebody copy

Pelosi and Schumer on this?

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

56. K&R

[Buckeyeblue]

58. I think outing a spy to the country where they are spying is treason.

Especially if we have sanctions against that country. That to me would fit the definition of a hostile relationship. But withholding aid for a favor is not. It's still a crime. Just not treason.

[Crunchy Frog]

60. Well, at least the R's know how to not mince words. I wish our Dems would pick up a few pointers.

[H2O Man]

61. Recommended.

Strange days have found us. It seems surreal.

[triron]

65. It is.

[onenote]

66. Weld is wrong about the penalty. Death is only one of several options.

28 USC 2381: "Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States."

[triron]

68. kick for visibility

Link to tweet

[TomVilmer]

69. So now we have one thread here supporting to kill politicians, and another one against it...

"Trump suggested Biden should get the electric chair. We all need to stand by Joe, all of us"
https://www.democraticunderground.com/1287290773
... would be better with an united front against such ancient stupidity.

[roamer65]

74. I'd love to throw the switch.

Bzzzzzzzzzzzt.

[magicarpet]

85. Like the BZZZZZZZIT from a blue bug light only 1000X louder....

All of trDump's hairs stands up on end and a big puff of blue/white smoke comes out of each ear and his nostrils.

[triron]

75. Just said the same thing on "The last Word".

[Laura PourMeADrink]

77. How could that be? Been hearing for MONTHS from the anti-impeachment

people that we WERE OFFICIALLY in the impeachment process (already)? What the what?

[Wawannabe]

78. String him up!

No firing squad needed.

[Kablooie]

82. Oh how I wish Trump got the death penalty.

It would be a strong deterrent for any future president who might want to destroy the dountry for personal gain.

[BigBearJohn]

83. and as he is lined up in front of the firing squad, the nation would yell at the top of their lungs:

[William Seger]

84. If Republicans were smart, they'd reconsider having a primary

... which unfortunately means that ain't happening.

[triron]

86. kick for visibility

[triron]

87. kick again

[triron]

88. knr