How much are we supposed to take?

[babylonsister]

http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2019/09/how-much-are-we-supposed-to-take?fbclid=IwAR3zlakGBB2z3A6JIRw7WPAKZPTaHt_BIA_3eojwn5evxKQlC6vSCI_1hds

How much are we supposed to take?
By Paul Campos
On September 19, 2019

At 4:05 pm

snip//

Look, I get the practical argument that impeaching Trump is politically dangerous. I understand that it’s impossible to remove him from office that way. I appreciate that it could backfire.

But these practical arguments are persuasive only to the extent that they outweigh the practical dangers of the opposite course of action, which are every bit as troubling.

In my view, there’s no way to tell how impeachment is going to play politically. Under the circumstances, which literally get worse every single day, not impeaching Trump is becoming a monument to a kind of exaggerated prudence which becomes increasingly difficult to distinguish from simple cowardice.

The tiebreaker, if that’s what you want to think of it as being, should be principle, not practicality. If Trump doesn’t warrant impeachment, then it’s almost impossible to even imagine what president would deserve that fate.

Yes yes, deserve’s got nothing to with it. I get it! The system doesn’t work, it has failed, it increasingly becomes a bad joke, catering to the blackest political humor.

At least go down fighting. Make every Republican senator defend Trump, in detail and at length, on the floor and on the street. Bombard the federal courts with subpoenas. Use the media to leak every bit of damaging information you uncover. Fight fire with fire. Donald Trump, and the corrupt and increasingly fascistic Republican party that is now wholly his creature, will both do anything to hold onto power: act accordingly.

[not_the_one]

1. If we are going to go down

we can at least go down fighting.

Doing nothing is being complicit.

It's actually enough to make you go hmmmmmm......

[Bettie]

3. +1

Yes. This exactly.

[SlogginThroughIt]

23. What is the hmmmm?

I’d like to know what is behind your “hmmm”.

[Mike Nelson]

2. It's a dilemma...

... it might be easier to beat an investigation-battered Trump in 2020 than incumbent President Pence and his Senate partner Speaker McConnell...

[Mike 03]

5. Excellent post.

It IS a dilemma. The investigation that never ends is to me much more appealing and strategically has so many advantages over actually taking a vote that cannot remove Trump from office. I want the "investigation-battered Trump" over any other Trump, especially the "They Tried To Impeach Me and Couldn't" Trump.

[Iwasthere]

9. If there is an election

[Pobeka]

16. Well then, how about investigate until, and impeach immediately after the 2020 election? n/t

[uponit7771]

33. +1, Red Don said he's going to cheat, is cheating and will continue to cheat

[SlogginThroughIt]

25. There will never be a president pence

There will never be a president pence. Even if we brought articles of impeachment. They are never going to get through the senate. So your post is exactly correct. An investigation battered Trump is the best we can do.

[Claritie Pixie]

30. The Senate won't convict, so no Prez Pence.

I think going into 2020 with hearings resulting in impeachment by the House will work in our favor with voters.

[Snake Plissken]

4. Stop being so divisive, Trump's historic levels of criminality and corruption are part of his charm

We can't possibly expect the people we elected to estable accountability to actually do what we elected them to do, that would be far too politically inconvenient.

[Kaleva]

6. Impreachement of Trump wasn't a priorty for voters in 2018

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/election-2018-voters-supported-stricter-gun-policy-but-it-wasnt-priority-for-most/

It might have been a priority for you but the evidence suggests you are part of a very small minority. Low single digits perhaps.

[Snake Plissken]

11. It might not have been a priority for you but the evidence suggests that you are in the minority

Accountability was absolutely without question the main focus of voters in 2018

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/07/politics/exit-polls-impeachment/index.html

[brutus smith]

17. Agree

[Kaleva]

34. Your link states that only a minority of Dems supported impeachement

Ad no where in the article you linked to does it state that impeachment was a major issue for Dem voters in 2018.

"Voters Say Health Care Is A Top Issue In The 2018 Election — A Good Sign For Democrats

Heading into the midterm elections, American voters are more likely to say they’re focused about health care than any other issue."

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/voters-say-health-care-is-their-top-issue-in-the-2018-election-thats-a-good-sign-for-democrats_n_5ac642e2e4b09d0a119103c4?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9kdWNrZHVja2dvLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAEgl1ni-n3ZgsjYlN_Vj8bxYGdSNk9SOsrHOCURodJG5cAfyTGQ2ds0XiCZ6s321nkBASrl75yLWbSo-dIPOcgKNWqOpaW_KeRIamldUUjjRNff3tKb0wRxNxSG7lOmSeP94j5C_ku6dSZTU_Fk3ZgSUNwK-36BEPT0abXGtmRsT

The two most important issues for Dems in 2018 according to the Huff/Post poll was health care and gun polices followed by the economy and the environment.

https://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/tabsHPMidtermelections20180323.pdf

Here's link to an Oct 2018 Gallup which shows what issues arethe most important to Dems and voters who lean Dem. Impeachment of Trump doesn't make the list.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/244367/top-issues-voters-healthcare-economy-immigration.aspx

[Kaleva]

36. This November 1, 2018 Pew Research Poll refutes your arguement

"Health care and the economy are among the top voting issues. About three-quarters of registered voters cite health care (75%) and the economy (74%) as very important issues to their vote this year, but there are partisan divisions. Nearly nine-in-ten Democratic candidate supporters (88%) say health care is very important, compared with six-in-ten Republican supporters. On the economy, 85% of Republican voters cite this as a very important issue for their vote, compared with 66% of Democratic voters. In the survey, conducted amid the Senate’s confirmation proceedings for Associate Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh, large shares of Democratic (81%) and Republican voters (72%) also said Supreme Court appointments would be a very important voting issue.

Partisans are also divided on other national issues. While 85% of Democratic voters say the treatment of racial and ethnic minorities will be very important in their vote, just 43% of Republicans say the same. Democrats also are much more likely than Republicans to cite the environment as a very important voting issue (by 82% to 38%). And the treatment of gay, lesbian and transgender people is cited as a very important issue by two-thirds of Democrats (66%) and just 24% of Republicans."

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/11/01/a-look-at-voters-views-ahead-of-the-2018-midterms/

[Kaleva]

37. NBC 2018 exit poll

"Voters were highly concerned about health care, according to preliminary exit polls on Tuesday, with more citing it as their top concern than the economy or any other issue — the first time in at least a decade that has happened.

A plurality of 41 percent identified health care as the issue most important to their vote, which Democrats made the centerpiece of their campaign in races throughout the country."

Health care was the top priority for voters followed by immigration, the economy and gun control.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/elections/midterm-exit-polls-2018-n932516

[cp]

7. At least go down fighting.

The Dems will win by NOT being the party of "simple cowardice." And by win, I mean our democratic republic, if not the next election. We have nothing to lose by being courageous.
I, for one, am tired of waiting.

[ewagner]

8. Paul is right...

the closing argument is powerful and correct...:

"At least go down fighting. Make every Republican senator defend Trump, in detail and at length, on the floor and on the street. Bombard the federal courts with subpoenas. Use the media to leak every bit of damaging information you uncover. Fight fire with fire. Donald Trump, and the corrupt and increasingly fascistic Republican party that is now wholly his creature, will both do anything to hold onto power: act accordingly."

[patphil]

10. We know that the Senate will never remove Trump from office.

But if we use that as an excuse for not pursuing the rule of law then we are playing Trump's game.
That is, aiding and abetting a lawless administration.
The House must bring to bear the full force of impeachment hearings, and not concern themselves with the Senate.
Let the people see and hear the truth.
The real risk here is a Democratic failure to unmask the villains and call them out for their crimes.
People want leaders who actually lead, not those who wring their hands and worrying about poll numbers.

Patrick Phillips

[SlogginThroughIt]

26. OR....

Or we continue to investigate and hold hearings forcing the media to cover them. If we take what we have right now and impeach the senate will laugh at us and the media will follow right along. And that will be that. They will say “see? we didn’t find enough to impeach”.

Continuing to investigate and produce evidence over the course of tje next year will be much more damning for him

[patphil]

28. Exactly. Keep moving forward. Push on to the end even if it takes a year.

Just keep up the pressure and the quest for truth.
Look at what Trump said today about the "Biden investigation".
He wants Joe to be executed!
Donnie's got to be scared.
The more frightened he gets, the stupider his statements become.

[smirkymonkey]

12. +1000

[seta1950]

13. Exactly

Put it all out there, let everyone hear and see how terrible it is, because now we look weak.

[SlogginThroughIt]

27. That IS what democrats are doing.

[Fiendish Thingy]

14. "Principle, not practicality"- Paul Campos is a true courageous patriot, not a coward

We need more arm twisters, fewer hand wringers.

[Bev54]

15. Pelosi called this some time ago

Pelosi has known for some time that Trump could not help himself and would self impeach and she said as much. He is doing exactly that, which will give the dems the ammunition they need to finish him off. She gave him the rope to hang himself because the repubs seem to have no problems with his crimes to date. The crimes are getting worse and going to be harder for them to be re-elected as they come to light. They are also getting closer to the evidence of his previous crimes which will be his end and hopefully the end for many of his supporters in congress.

[Hermit-The-Prog]

19. hence, the rats running from the sinking Trumptanic

It's at a record pace right now, but we need more Russiapublicans retiring.

[brutus smith]

18. +1000

The longer we let this go, the more emboldened trump and retrumplicans become.

[Hortensis]

20. "At least go down fighting." WHAT? Going down is NOT an option.

Look, Babyl, to win we must remove the Republicans from majority power, including the WH?

Committing to winning is the responsible, strong thing to do. And, from watching you guys I'm guessing it far, far, far less miserable than premature despair.

[BlueWI]

32. Premature despair?

Nothing premature about it after tax giveaways that exacerbate income inequality, emergency failures in Puerto Rico, stirring up white nationalists that are being arrested at record numbers, likely compromising of strategic information with a Russian despot, trade wars that have hampered the farm economy, all of the overt or suspected criminal actions documented in the Mueller Report, and that's in 2.5 years.

Add in four years lost on the climate battle and Republicans still entrenched across many state governments, and solutions are far from simple. Obviously to me, opposition needs to ramp up, so if it's not impeachment, it better be something else that at least stems the tide before January 2021.

And, to say the least, we really really really better win if we leave impeachment off the table. Meanwhile, count on a steady stream of lawlessness and continuing, unabated damage to our institutions if no other check on power is found before 2021.

[Hortensis]

35. The word from under the bed? Come on.

Our nation is in one of its low points for sure. I don't know how old you are, but if you didn't experience it yourself you should have learned enough history to realize the one constant is change.

And it's not like we haven't declined into a very dangerous and contemptible mess before, including massive poverty, growing civil rights abuses, and the real threat of extremist, left and right, takeover. Just cast your eyes back to this time last century. The so-called "greatest generation" only became that after the results of being among the worst required them all to finally act to save themselves.

[njhoneybadger]

21. We can't fold every fucking hand waiting for a pair of Aces

people don't respect caution that borders on cowardice
That last paragraph

[Mazeltov Cocktail]

22. Impeachment is a priority! ! !

It is past time for this to happen.

[democrank]

24. " Principle

not practicality”

[coti]

29. It's not cowardice, it's just being afraid of what's gonna happen! nt

[I_UndergroundPanther]

31. Sometimes you have to feel the fear

And do it anyway.even if there is uncertainty.because it is the right thing to do.