Debate among fellow liberals

[Cary]

I don't come here to debate, I come here to exchange ideas and get feedback. Unfortunately I have been sucked i to debate." I have to use scare quotes because it often devolves into insipid games.

What prompts this post is an "exchange" on Facebook with 3 Orange Hitler followers and myself. I don't bother to engage them, I just point out that they are cult followers and useless and such. They keep trying to "score points" with their cult blather. It is a complete waste of time and I just end up trying to extract myself gracefully.

I am sad to say that this happens here too. It isn't exactly the same but it is too close IMHO.

This idea that we must impeach, for example. There are legitimate concerns on both sides of the debate. No one here (in good faith) wants to see Orange Hitler go unpunished. No one wants to see our democracy harmed. No one want a second term for the moron or to turn over the House.

No one has a crystal ball.

No one wants to be wedged.

We have the power to not be wedged. Are we smart enough to use that power? My greatest fear is that we are not.

[redstatebluegirl]

1. I agree with you about impeachment.

It is another litmus test being administered to anyone in our party. Agree or you are not a true Democrat, makes no sense.

[KPN]

2. Then don't wedge!

[Cary]

5. I don't wedge, sir or madam

Maybe you could benefit from my example?

[KPN]

11. With all due respect, I beg to differ.

[Cary]

15. On second though, never mind

I will not be going down your rabbit hole.

[H2O Man]

3. Recommended.

I recommended this, because I respect you, and think that discussions about important issues is beneficial. However, I strongly disagree with the idea that there are good reasons to not start serious impeachment hearings now.

[UniteFightBack]

4. They are underway but we must prosecute the crime that will garner a conviction even with the

most corrupt of juries. WTF will this jackass do after he is found 'not guilty'??? We get one shot to pierce this beast in its underbelly. One Shot.

[Cary]

7. This is true

Prosecutors will refrain from making bad precedent.

[H2O Man]

8. Yes and no.

Rep. Nadler issued a subpoena to Don McGahn this spring. On May7, the White House ordered McGahn to not testify. On May 21, McGahn defied the House Judiciary's subpoena. Rep. Nadler wanted to file a suit immediately in federal district court to compel McGahn to testify. But, of course, Rep. Nadler does not have the power to do so. It took until August 7 for Rep. Nadler to convince the person who has that power to agree, and get it filed in court.

I have great respect for Chairman Nadler, and agree that his committee is holding hearings that could lead to the hearings that could refer the cases for impeachment to the House for a vote.

It may be that the republicans in the Senate will not vote to convict Trump. That will depend upon the strength of the case made to convict, as well as the republicans' beliefs about being primaried the next time they are up for election. Democrats have no control over their decisions.

However, Democrats do have the power to decide if Trump and republicans in Congress can run in 2020 on the theme that Trump will use: "If I had done anything wrong, surely the Democrats would have impeached me. But they didn't. Total vindication."

[Hermit-The-Prog]

13. there is far too much time between hearings

[Cary]

6. Thank you, and let's discuss that for a minute

What are the arguments and how are they not reasonably objective?

Notice I didn't say correct or incorrect. We cannot make that call. If our fellow Democrats make a reasonably objective argument then we do have to respect that.

[H2O Man]

9. Should the Democrats not impeach,

Trump and all the republicans in the House and Senate running for re-election in 2020 will follow Trump's saying the Democrats' choice not to impeach vindicates him. That, had he done anything wrong, they would have impeached him faster than a horse can trot. They will all claim the House investigations were a sham.

Second, the Constitution states that Congress "shall" impeach for high crimes and misdemeanors. That word "shall" is the same one used in the law stating the administration "shall" turn over tax returns to the chair of the House Ways & Means Committee upon request. Democrats have rightly focused on that word "shall" per the tax records. The word has the same meaning in the Constitution.

Third, the business about Trump and the Ikraine is so glaringly illegal and dangerous that it requires anyone and everyone who took an oath to uphold the Constitution to take appropriate action.

[Cary]

10. There is no depth to which Republicans will not sink

So that ceases to be a concern. Fascism is a pure power grab. All philosophical underpinning to justify their power grab is ad hoc.

The only way forward is to overpower them and the only path to that is a solid resolve and a solid coalition. Whether impeachment is part of that path, no one knows.

[H2O Man]

12. There are distinct

advantages to following the Constitution, should folks seek to protect it from attack.

[Cary]

14. I don't read that the same way you do

But that isn't my point.

My point is to defeat the Nazi in the White House, not each other.

[Cary]

16. Keep in mind, please, that I do not contend that they should not impeach

I contend that they have a legitimate argument and that it is incumbent upon all of us to accept that.

If you could try it both ways and then choose the best path, that would be better. But of course that isn't how it works.

If it is a.certainty that the Senate will not convict, and it is, then your "shall impeach if" argument fails. But that isn't my point.

[Gothmog]

17. It'll be very hard to get full House Dem caucus behind impeachment

Last edited Mon Sep 23, 2019, 06:47 PM - Edit history (1)

I donated to and help elect two Democrats who flipped red seats to blue in Texas. These two Democrats are being targeted by the GOP. There are also six other house seats that the Texas Democratic Party and the DCCC are targeting. All of these seats may be hurt by impeachment.

There are 40 democrats who are in seats that are vulnerable. Pelosi is not going to do anything to hurt the chances of these Democrats

Link to tweet

[Cary]

18. That's a valid argument

Why do people have to insist that they know better, and therefore have to be divisive?

What's so horrible about a little discipline?

[Gothmog]

22. Colin Allred has issued this statement

Link to tweet

[Cary]

23. I am in favor of impeachment

But we have to do it together and we must find at least one Republican patriot.

Preferably more than one.

[Gothmog]

19. Analysis: The politics of pushing to impeach Trump aren't much less complicated than they were a wee

Link to tweet

Setting aside the Nixon example, an impeachment push isn’t necessarily going to sail through the House in the first place.

The Washington Post has been tracking which members of the House Democratic caucus support impeaching Trump. Since the beginning of the year, the number who do has increased significantly, picking up speed in earnest after the release of former special counsel Robert S. Mueller III’s report on Russian interference in the 2016 election. (One Republican joined the impeachment calls before leaving his party in July: Justin Amash (I-Mich.).)

Notice that bar on the far right, though. It signifies the number of votes needed to have a majority in the House. And although more than half of Democrats support impeachment publicly, nearly all of the caucus would need to support such a vote if Republicans remain unified in opposition to it. The light blue on that chart indicates Democrats who haven’t weighed in on impeachment or who are opposed to it — but nearly all of those members explicitly oppose an impeachment effort.

Pelosi is good at counting votes and right now the votes are not there to impeach

[Cary]

20. I don't have an issue with people who favor impeachment

I have an issue with bashing Democrats.

[Gothmog]

21. 7 House Freshman just published amazing editorial on Washington Post

Link to tweet