When is it OK for Mormons to lie?

[tularetom]

I googled "lying for the lord" and found out that the Mormon faith basically condones or even encourages mendacity when it is employed to protect or advance the interests of the church.

OK fine as far as that goes. But I couldn't find any specific guidelines and it seems to leave the question as to what is in the interests of the church to the judgment of each individual Mormon. And here it becomes very easy for someone to confuse his own personal interests with the interests of the church and to thereby rationalize his own lying.

Assume I am a prominent Mormon, oh I don't know, say um, Mitt Romney. And I am running for the office of President of the US. Would the cause of the church be advanced or protected if I were elected? Of course it would. So then wouldn't it be OK for me to lie in order to get elected?

This has all kinds of ramifications in everyday life. Say I'm a not so prominent Mormon working in an office and a non Mormon co worker and myself are competing for a promotion. The interests of the church would sure as hell be advanced if I got the job because my salary would go up and with it, the amount of money I donate to the church. So would it then be okay for me to spread a bunch of lies about my co worker in order to try to disqualify him for that promotion? It would sure be easy for me to make that case in my own mind.

There's a lot I don't understand about this religion and a lot of what I do understand is disturbing. But one of the things that bothers me the most is that a religion can make it so easy for its members to ease their consciences and rationalize behavior that may be purely motivated by ones own selfish interests.

I've probably oversimplifed this. But am I off base? Would the Mormon church condone Romney lying about the president in order to get elected?

[kestrel91316]

1. It has been my family's long and unhappy experience that yes, lying is permitted and even

encouraged among Mormons as long as the lying is done to Gentiles and serves to aid the church in some way.

[Angry Dragon]

2. Was it okay for Jesus to lie to protect his religion??

If the answer is no then any religion that condones it then I believe it is a cult

[Green_Lantern]

62. Judaism said it was okay for Jews to lie about being Jewish...

To avoid persecution.

[Angry Dragon]

71. There is a difference to lie to save yourself versus

lying to save your religion


add: or I should say lying to make your religion seem better than it really is or lying to hide things your religion has done against mankind

[Brother Buzz]

3. Brigham Young’s Great-Great-Granddaughter has implied he asked permission to flip-flop

It's just a small step from that to bald-faced lying.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/08/07/exclusive-brigham-young-s-great-great-granddaughter-on-mormonism-and-mitt-romney.html

[rocktivity]

7. Suspicions Confirmed!

“Mitt has had people defer to him and not challenge him his entire life,” says Emmett. “In the Mormon church if you challenge your priesthood leaders it’s a very bad thing to do, especially for women. As the world can now see, Mitt has a very hard time with being questioned and criticized; he’s had so little of this in his life..."

Regarding Romney and the presidency, Emmett cites a bit of Mormon lore called the White Horse Prophecy...It suggests that Mormons believe a time will come when the U.S. Constitution is eroding and Mormon leaders will save it and usher in a new theocracy with Mormons in charge...Romney has said that he considers the White Horse Prophecy just a matter of speculation by church members. "I haven't heard my name associated with it or anything of that nature," he told The Salt Lake Tribune in 2007. "That's not official church doctrine…I don't put that at the heart of my religious belief..."

But Emmett begs to differ. “I can guarantee you that there are millions of Mormons who believe this prophecy and see Romney as potential fulfillment of it,” she says. “As a Mormon, you grow up hearing about this prophecy. I think Mitt believes he has a mandate from God to become president so he can help move this along. I don’t know if it’s a conscious thought, but it's in his subconscious...”

“Every Mormon grows up with the idea that it’s OK to lie if it’s for a higher cause,” says Clark, who now works for a company that markets employment and labor market data. “But what happens is when this becomes a part of your ethical tool kit, you develop a condescending attitude toward people. Like Ann Romney saying 'you people.’ This idea of lying for the Lord gives you license to place people on an inferior level. It’s OK for Mitt Romney to ignore the principle of full disclosure because it’s in his DNA. Look what he’s doing with his taxes, and how he talks only in generic and sanitized terms about his religion...”

rocktivity

[laundry_queen]

35. Um, wow.

"the White Horse Prophecy...It suggests that Mormons believe a time will come when the U.S. Constitution is eroding and Mormon leaders will save it and usher in a new theocracy with Mormons in charge"

Handmaid's Tale anyone?

[rocktivity]

39. Romney doesn't deny it

Last edited Mon Sep 3, 2012, 10:10 AM - Edit history (2)

Romney says he doesn't believe in the supposed prophecy, nor did his father when he ran. "I haven't heard my name associated with it or anything of that nature," Mitt Romney told The Salt Lake Tribune during an interview earlier this year. "That's not official church doctrine. There are a lot of things that are speculation and discussion by church members and even church leaders that aren't official church doctrine. I don't put that at the heart of my religious belief."

The ARTICLE says that Romney says that he doesn't believe in the prophecy. Romney says he doesn't put it "at the heart" of his belief. Unless, of course, he was simply lying for the Lord again.


rocktivity

[laundry_queen]

66. Gotta love those 'journalists' taking liberties in their articles. nt

[liberalmuse]

55. I have no doubts at all...

That Romney will answer directly to the President of the Mormon church if the Republicans manage to steal the election. All Mormons (and in my case, former Mormons) know this. He may have brushed it off, but he damn well believes it's about him. I heard and believed the prophecy. I suppose this is why I dislike him so much. You get a whole different prospective if you're familiar with Mormonism. Even his lip smacking and the other mannerisms he has while speaking are common mannerisms in the Mormon church. Like with most religions, it's okay to lie to outsiders or unbelievers because the end justifies the means.

[Alduin]

4. I find it unsettling that a church would condone lying when it protects or advances the church.

Did Jesus ever lie?

No?

Huh.

[rocktivity]

5. I think it's safe to believe that installing a Mormon U.S. president

(especially one who is a descendant of one of the original Mormon families) would "protect or advance the interests of the church."

...The Romneys are masters of lying without sinning...With or without the endorsement of their Mormon elders, the Romneys are not operating on the basis of right or wrong, good or bad, true or false. There is only what will get them into the White House versus what will not...
more

rocktivity

[tularetom]

11. Wow, a religion that allows you to define your own morality

You can soothe your conscience and justify any action you want to undertake by telling yourself it's for the good of the church.

You don't have to worry about going to hell and you can sleep well at night without thinking about the people you've screwed over.

And it only costs you 10% of everything you own. And if you really want to sit down and make a case you could probably even justify in your own mind that it's actually in the best interests of the church for you to lie about how much you make so that you could get away with paying them even less.

[sammytko]

13. aren't all religions like this? You can sin and then either go to confession or

"talk" to God one on one - repent. You are supposed to go forth and sin no more, but really, who sticks to that?

[rocktivity]

15. BY GEORGE (ROMNEY), I THINK YOU'VE GOT IT!

Last edited Sat Sep 1, 2012, 10:17 PM - Edit history (1)

..(Y)ou could probably even justify in your own mind that it's actually in the best interests of the church for you to lie about how much you make so that you could get away with paying them even less.

The main theories as to why Mitt won't show his tax returns is that the IRS would come down on him like a ton of bricks, and that he took a tax amnesty for his overseas accounts (which technically makes him a felon). What if the REAL reason the why Romneys are hiding their tax returns is because what they've saved in avoided taxes EXCEEDS what they've tithed?


rocktivity

[jberryhill]

53. "the IRS would come down on him like a ton of bricks"

How does this make sense?

The IRS already HAS his tax returns.

[rocktivity]

58. I meant in the sense of this going on:

Bain Capital Under Investigation For Tax Avoidance-Romney Denies Any Benefit


rocktivity

[jberryhill]

59. Still don't get it

The IRS has Romney's taxes.

Whether he discloses them to the public or not, makes zero difference to the IRS.

[HeiressofBickworth]

64. you are assuming

that the Romney's told the IRS the truth....

[jberryhill]

65. Well, that makes zero sense....

Okay, so let's recap....

The assertion in this thread is:

1. Romney is afraid to release his taxes because then the IRS would do something.

The assertion is facially absurd. The IRS has his taxes. Releasing them to the public does not change what the IRS has, or what the IRS could do with them in an audit.

I am not assuming he told the IRS the truth. However, releasing them to the public doesn't do anything relevant to whether he told the IRS the truth.

Please explain how releasing them changes any information the IRS already has.

[IrishEyes]

6. Isn't there a commandment about that?

Thou shall not lie. I thought christians were big on the ten commandments.

[rocktivity]

8. The ten commandments PRECEDED Christ

Maybe it's a loophole.


rockivity

[tularetom]

16. You just brought up another interesting question

Are Mormon's christians?

I don't think they think they are.

[Bluerthanblue]

18. Mormons believe they (the males)will become Gods

kind of a violation of the first comandment-

They recognize Jesus as an equal to what they will become, and say that "Lucifer/Satan" is Jesus' brother.
Jesus does not meet the biblical definition of the Messiah according to Mormons.
They believe that Joseph Smith will be among those who 'judge' who will enter heaven or be sent to hell.

Christians believe there is only one 'God'. Mormons believe there are at least three.

[Change has come]

42. and apparently, Satan is the son of God?

Weird, and goes against everything Christians are taught in Sunday School. Sounds like a cult to me!

[iemitsu]

54. and christians believe that christ is god.

[annabanana]

68. So they are Polytheistic?

They don't believe in just one God?

[Bluerthanblue]

70. it's difficult for me to

understand or explain- but here is one 'take' on what they believe:

The Mormon Church teaches a plurality of Gods. They believe that God the Father (Elohim) was once a man on a separate world who attained godhood. He then had many spirit children with his wives, the oldest one being Jesus. According to LDS beliefs, we were all Elohim’s spirit children before our carnal existence. Therefore, Jesus is our eldest brother. Jesus was one of a very few who attained godhood before living an earthly life. For most of us, according to the LDS Church, the earthly life provides a means to demonstrate our obedience and earn our godhood. Therefore, there are practically unlimited worlds that are headed by gods who were once men like us. Through obedience and righteous living, Mormonism teaches that we too can aspire to be gods of our own worlds. As former LDS Prophet Brigham Young taught: “How many Gods there are, I do not know. But there never was a time when there were not Gods and worlds, and when men were not passing through the same ordeals that we are passing through. That course has been from all eternity, and it is and will be to all eternity.”1 Joseph Smith was clear that we are to follow the same task, when he said, “you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you…”2 Therefore, the number of gods is practically limitless.



http://www.contenderministries.org/mormonism/polytheism.php

[kestrel91316]

29. If I were a biblical literalist and fundie christian I would definitely be calling

Mormons NOT christian. Thou shalt have no other gods before me seems pretty explicit.

[riderinthestorm]

38. Since you come from a Mormon family, I'm curious did they define themselves as "Christians"?

I'm talking about in a literal sense. I know that many Mormons define themselves as "Christian" in order to blend in, knowing full well that they're "really Mormon".

But as an insider, did your family members believe that they were both Mormon AND Christian?

[kestrel91316]

50. I have no idea, lol. My dad was raised by jack mormons (nonpracticing).

He got thrown out of the Boy Scouts for not going to church (Mormon, of course, the only other choice was Catholic) and though my parents raised us nominally Presbyterian until I was 8, I'm pretty sure neither one of them believed any of that religious stuff at all. My mom had a presentation bible from her youth, but as far as I know it was just a dustcatcher.

I never spoke to my grandmother about religion. The LDS sent folks out periodically to hit her up for tithe but I don't know if she ever paid. My grandfather and uncles had to keep running them off the ranch. My grandparents were never married in the temple, of course. With such famous apostates in the family history as Bill Hickman and Emery Meacham, our whole branch was pretty much destined to drift away from the Mormons.

So I have no idea how to answer that. I don't think any of my 20 cousins are practicing Mormons (well maybe Pam..........but she got divorced early on and only had one child and never remarried, so if she is one, it's not real obvious and I haven't seen her in years anyway). The only doctrine my grandmother ever followed was storing food, but since they were on a remote NV ranch that was just common sense and everybody did it. Her parents were very churchy from what I understand, got married in the temple, but they died 25 years before I was even born.

Sorry I can't be of more help in this, lol. What I know of Mormons comes from dealing with them over the years, and hearing tales of other family members dealing with them. I don't think I could discuss religious matters with a Mormon and keep a straight face.

[LeftyMom]

37. They're non-Trinitarian. The Byzantines voted them out of the club back in some year I'm not going

to bother to look up, because suffice it to say it was the Byzantines so it's a safe bet it was a long time before Joseph Smith found a better con than dowsing.

If they're going to redefine Christianity to include Mormonism, I'd like a good explanation of how Muslims don't count too, because their ideas about Jesus really aren't any farther from Christian thought than theirs.

FWIW, I don't have any money on the fight. I'm an atheist and I think they're all nuts.

[kestrel91316]

51. That's what I was thinking, that Mormons and Muslims have similar views of Christ.

The Mormons probably consider him more divine, and the Muslims more prophet, but it's almost a distinction without a difference.

And yeah, I have no dog in the fight either. I have eclectic spiritual leanings, but don't practice any religion, being far too lazy to engage in any ritual or gatherings. Religion, for me, lives entirely inside my head.

[Bluenorthwest]

67. Christians believe that Jesus was concieved of a virgin, Mormons reject that teaching

So no, they are not Christians, their religion is entirely different. They way they see Jesus is about the same as Jesus is seen in Islam, a great man, just not the greatest and not Divine.

[Tom Ripley]

9. When the founder of your faith is a conman, anything goes

[kestrel91316]

30. ding ding ding ding ding

[Tom Ripley]

10. Well, their favorite Gospel in the New Testament is...Mark

[gulliver]

12. Judging from Romney, it must be required.

Romney is putting a great face on the Mormon Church. Every time he lies and gets caught, it's one more strike against Mormonism. People will assume he must be representative. Especially since no matter what he says, the Mormons will back him. He is already their greatest catastrophe. Their eye on the presidency hath offended them.

[Bluerthanblue]

14. this video gives pretty good insight

into the way Romney "answers" questions.

I watched it a few months ago- I have relatives who fell into the mormon cult.

[smirkymonkey]

31. Great Non-Answer. What a moron.

I mean Mormon.

[Nikia]

17. When they were a persecuted church that might make sense

It seems like it might be morally alright to lie if that means that church leaders and members wouldn't be arrested or worse and that churches wouldn't be closed or burned to the ground.
I think that some other religions have clauses about lying being alright if it saves a life or prevents some other bad thing from happening.
I don't know if Mormon theologians have discussed what is alright and not in defining this.

[Tom Ripley]

20. But they were only "persecuted" because they were being held accountable for the financial...

and electoral frauds they were perpetrating against communities.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

26. In addition, at least in Illinois, they sent their kids onto farm land to steal the crops being

grown by others. Some kids would be lined up on one side of the farm while others came in from the opposite side. When a farmer would chase them off, the other kids would come in. It was a way to ruin a farmer and the work that they did during the warm-weather months.

[Change has come]

43. Do you have a link to more information?

That's fucked up!

[AnotherMcIntosh]

48. Family history.

After the War of 1812, some of my ancestors and other veterans were given land in Western Illinois. They built farms. Then the Mormons came along with their propensity to take and use their kids to take things that didn't belong to them. They were known to take crops, animals, tools, wagons, and even clothes off scarecrows. According to the family history, my ancestors had less trouble with the Indians or Native Americans who were willing to trade for what they wanted. Ultimately, the people in the area had what some called the Mormon War, although the small "war" may not be generally known or thought of as a war elsewhere.

My ancestors didn't lose as much as others, although they are the ones whose corn crop was ruined by the Mormon kids. Ironically, years later, a great-granddaughter married a Mormon and moved to Salt Lake to be a Mormon.

[jberryhill]

60. +1

[MercutioATC]

19. You DO know how Mormanism was founded, right?

The entire religion is based on a snake-oil salesman's lies.

(ok, the same can probably said of all religions, but golden tablets from god that nobody else is allowed to see? ...and when the manuscript is stolen, god gives him a new set of smaller tablets?? C'mon...)

[jsr]

41. This is what happened to the golden plates

[MercutioATC]

47. As likely an explanation as any...

...and more amusing than the "official" explanation

[Dems to Win]

21. Mormons lie to their own children and church members

I'll never forget when I was about 12, a (Mormon) schoolmate told me that it was a myth that Mormons were polygamous -- the only one who had multiple wives was Brigham Young, he had four wives for some reason that she couldn't remember, but the rest of it was just a legend. She honestly believed this, it seemed to me.

In official church histories and publications today, Brigham Young is shown pictured with his wife Mary (his first wife and the only legal wife). They don't mention his 26 (or more?) other wives at all.

Most Mormons truly believe that Joseph Smith was killed by an anti-mormon mob of gentiles. They have no clue that the mob was in a fury about a pamphlet written by a Mormon elder who had just found out that Smith had secretly 'temple married' and had sex with his own wife, and the wives of dozens of other high ranking Mormon elders. Smith was killed because the depths of his betrayal of his own Mormon followers had just become known.

Mormons aren't the slightest bit honest WITH THEMSELVES about the factual and well documented history of their church and their founder. Dishonesty is at the very heart of their creed. Sad but true.

[Green_Lantern]

23. you are wrong about Smith's death

The pamphlet you speak of was libelous and stoking hatred of Mormons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith#Death

[jberryhill]

27. And a Mormon mob destroyed the press

In an organized act of criminal vandalism against the basic freedom of this country.

[Frank Cannon]

45. Google "Mountain Meadows Massacre" sometime.

Mark Twain wrote about it in his book "Roughing It".

Mormons have a long history of being...shall we say...dismissive to non-Mormons whom they don't expect to convert.

[jberryhill]

49. Well aware

[Green_Lantern]

61. libel is not covered by press freedom

The Mormons were persecuted for not following the mainstream.

[jberryhill]

63. Ha! Libel... good one

This guy was running around in a military uniform, with a hit squad of enforcers, and wanted to be president so he could take over the country.

Whether libel is protected or not, it doesn't give him the right to violently attack a newspaper and destroy their press.

You take libel claims to court, you don't go and destroy other people's property.

It was criminally destructive gang behavior. Whether he got his scamming widdle feelings hurt by the nasty bad newspaper does not give him the right to engage in destructive violence. Period. End of story.

The man raised his own army to destroy a newspaper. What do you think he might have expected, a medal?

[oldhippydude]

28. you might be able to find..

a book that was popular in the early 60's... Irving Wallace wrote a book called THE 27th WIFE.. a more or less historical account ot Brigham Young's polygamous marriage(s)..

[kestrel91316]

33. Good lord. I'm personally descended from several Mormon polygamists,

and not a one of them was named Joseph Smith OR Brigham Young.

I'm a genealogist. It's quite a hoot to see some of the US Census pages online that show household after household after household in UT during the 1800s where there is only one adult male (Head of Household) and several adult and teenaged women (listed as Wives), and dozens of children of ages that make it clear that there are multiple mothers having kids at the same time. And everybody shares a surname with the Head of Household.

Do they seriously think people are so stupid that they can STILL be telling that lie?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

[Prophet 451]

22. Whenever you put a microphone in front of them, apparently

Actually, that's unfair. I know very little about Mormonism and for all I know, they could be deeply ashamed of Romney's constant lying.

[Kingofalldems]

24. The entire right wing thinks it's OK to lie

Ollie North is a hero to them for doing just that. They believe it is a virtue to lie to 'Libruls'.

[slampoet]

25. For Money.

[spanone]

32. when they want to become ceo of america

[Vidar]

34. When they're awake?

[FreeState]

36. I was raised Mormon and was told it was never okay to lie. N/T

[Change has come]

46. Do you feel this thread is discriminatory?

Or distasteful? I ask this because I respect you as a DUer (and have for years). I don't want to be offensive.

[FreeState]

56. It's typical and plays into the way LDS people feel they are mistreated

It's typical and plays into the way LDS people feel they are mistreated. It's not 100 false but it's taking old quotes and applying them to modern membership as a whole.

It makes me uncomfortable and a little sad. It seems to me that members of society will attack something because they are afraid of it, rather than learning the actual history and weight these issues have or how members view them. It's very easy to pile on rather than to try and actually have compaction and understanding. We have never seen this kind of question posed when LDS members who are Democrats have ran for office. Note the question in the OP is about Mormons is general, not Mitt Romney.

[JI7]

52. what were you taught about Gays, Blacks other minorities ?

[FreeState]

57. I was not taught racism, homophobia, yes

Racism of any sort was not allowed in my family growing up. I was 7 years old when dark skinned* members were given the priesthood. My parents saw it as something that was long coming. It had been a part of the church that made them uncomfortable with their faith on some level.

I only remember hearing about gay people three times in church. I read about it in a lot of older books and some church literature. The churches thinking in this area is unhealthy and homophobic. It did not make for a healthy self esteem or outlook on life. It was also the prevailing attitude in the 80s when i was growing up. I didn't know a single gay person, it was very in the closet still. (WA State) I'm sure that has changed some, but I have not been in 17 years, I stopped going a couple years before I came out.

* it was not just black male members who were denied the priesthood, it was also any male who was not white enough.

[Zorra]

40. Well. most of them are republicans. I'm just sayin'....nt

[liberal_at_heart]

44. I certainly think the evangelicals practice this

The way they start a conversation with a potential convert. The whole thing is contrived, manipulative, and condescending. As long as they save someone's soul then the ends justify the means. I don't know why they can't see that most people can see through disingenuous intentions.

[MineralMan]

69. In Romney's case, whenever he opens his mouth.

I think that's the answer.