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blm

(112,996 posts)
Tue Sep 24, 2019, 07:56 PM Sep 2019

DU, Let's gather the facts and establish a timeline for the entire Ukraine story.

It’s what we did in the past and we would have a ready, accurate reference for our upcoming battles.

There WILL be battles.

https://www.factcheck.org/2019/09/trump-twists-facts-on-biden-and-ukraine/
...
In March 2016, Biden visited Ukraine and warned that the U.S. would withhold $1 billion in loan guarantees if Ukraine failed to deal with corruption and remove Shokin as its prosecutor general. Biden disclosed this demand during a January 2018 event at the Council on Foreign Relations.

“I looked at them and said: I’m leaving in six hours. If the prosecutor is not fired, you’re not getting the money,” Biden recalled. “Well, son of a bitch. He got fired.”

But the U.S. was not alone in pressuring Ukraine to fire Shokin.

A month earlier, International Monetary Fund managing director Christine Lagarde threatened to withhold $40 billion unless Ukraine undertook “a substantial new effort” to fight corruption after the country’s economic minister and his team resigned to protest government corruption. That same month, a “reform-minded deputy prosecutor resigned, complaining that his efforts to address government corruption had been consistently stymied by his own prosecutor general, Viktor Shokin,” according to a Jan. 3, 2017, Congressional Research Services report.

Shokin served as prosecutor general under Viktor Yanukovych, the former president of Ukraine who fled to Russia after he was removed from power in 2014 and was later found guilty of treason. Shokin remained in power after Yanukovych’s ouster, but he failed “to indict any major figures from the Yanukovych administration for corruption,” according to testimony John E. Herbst, a former U.S. ambassador to Ukraine under President George W. Bush, gave in March 2016 to a subcommittee of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

“By late fall of 2015, the EU and the United States joined the chorus of those seeking Mr. Shokin’s removal as the start of an overall reform of the Procurator General’s Office,” Herbst testified. “U.S. Vice President Joe Biden spoke publicly about this before and during his December visit to Kyiv; but Mr. Shokin remained in place.”

In early 2016, Deputy General Prosecutor Vitaliy Kasko resigned in protest of corruption within Shokin’s office. In a televised statement, Kasko said: “Today, the General Prosecutor’s office is a brake on the reform of criminal justice, a hotbed of corruption, an instrument of political pressure, one of the key obstacles to the arrival of foreign investment in Ukraine.”

In reporting on Kasko’s resignation, Reuters noted that Ukraine’s “failure to tackle endemic corruption” threatened the IMF’s $40 billion aid program for Ukraine. At the time, the IMF put a hold on $1.7 billion in aid that had been due to be released to Ukraine four months earlier.

“After President Poroshenko complained that Shokin was taking too long to clean up corruption even within the PGO itself, he asked for Shokin’s resignation,” the CRS report said. Shokin resigned in March 2016, coinciding with Biden’s visit to Ukraine and a series of events that increased pressure on Shokin.
...

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DU, Let's gather the facts and establish a timeline for the entire Ukraine story. (Original Post) blm Sep 2019 OP
Isn't that the job of the impeachment inquiry? wasupaloopa Sep 2019 #1
DU has a history of putting together comprehensive timelines. blm Sep 2019 #3
I will open any damn thread I want and say what the wasupaloopa Sep 2019 #5
And then the facts will be added to the timeline. Lars39 Sep 2019 #6
I NEVER thought I'd ever hear a DUer say we shouldn't research Generic Other Sep 2019 #8
Definitely a first. blm Sep 2019 #10
In my opinion most of the time we know Laura PourMeADrink Sep 2019 #17
you grumpy nt demsocialist Sep 2019 #19
. TidalWave46 Sep 2019 #24
Here is one good source. MFGsunny Sep 2019 #2
A lot of information in the link in this thread: icymist Sep 2019 #4
Link to debunking of scandal. blm Sep 2019 #7
Another debunking article from May 10, The Intercept blm Sep 2019 #31
New Yorker article of July2019 on Hunter Biden blm Sep 2019 #9
Fact Check May 24 Generic Other Sep 2019 #11
That's important info. blm Sep 2019 #12
Here's the Bloomberg article, May 16 blm Sep 2019 #22
Great IDEA!!! Go for it barbiegeek Sep 2019 #13
Pence Gave Ukraine the Message Too Generic Other Sep 2019 #14
You mean like this? brooklynite Sep 2019 #15
Thank you, brook. blm Sep 2019 #20
Circumstantial. moondust Sep 2019 #16
Yowza blm Sep 2019 #21
Not in timeline format but lots of good info Laura PourMeADrink Sep 2019 #18
This message was self-deleted by its author elocs Sep 2019 #23
the Ukraine story goes further back, at least to Manafort. No need to hold the current wiggs Sep 2019 #25
Yes, the New Yorker piece goes back, too, and blm Sep 2019 #26
Important background and timeline here: highplainsdem Sep 2019 #27
Fascinating Susan Simpson twitter feed on ANOTHER potentially weird withholding of Ukraine aid Nevermypresident Sep 2019 #28
Interesting twist. Thanks. blm Sep 2019 #29
Big update: blm Sep 2019 #30
Also, Russian State TV knew that Trump Ilsa Sep 2019 #32
Meet the Soviet-born businessmen tangled in Trump's impeachment inquiry. They live in Florida. Nevermypresident Sep 2019 #33
Trump KNEW story was false. That means he wanted something PLANTED. blm Sep 2019 #34

blm

(112,996 posts)
3. DU has a history of putting together comprehensive timelines.
Tue Sep 24, 2019, 08:13 PM
Sep 2019

If you don’t want to participate that’s fine as we choose to do this entirely on our own.

Our past timelines were very well received at other forums and sites.

 

wasupaloopa

(4,516 posts)
5. I will open any damn thread I want and say what the
Tue Sep 24, 2019, 08:21 PM
Sep 2019

hell I want.

At this point we do not have all the facts.

Your timeline will be bogus if you don’t wait till the facts are known.

Generic Other

(28,979 posts)
8. I NEVER thought I'd ever hear a DUer say we shouldn't research
Tue Sep 24, 2019, 08:32 PM
Sep 2019

and post because it wasn't our job to search out the facts. You clearly do not know what BLM and many others here did to dig up oppo research in the Bush years. This was the ONLY source of information at times.

Now move out of the way and let others help flesh out the timeline.

 

Laura PourMeADrink

(42,770 posts)
17. In my opinion most of the time we know
Wed Sep 25, 2019, 12:42 AM
Sep 2019

A hell of a lot more than most on the news because of people like you who take the time to dig into facts and piece them together. It just takes an inquisitive mind and time. Thanks BLM!

MFGsunny

(2,356 posts)
2. Here is one good source.
Tue Sep 24, 2019, 08:05 PM
Sep 2019

https://www.apnews.com/310241fb94e24458905f99afc9d948d6

~snip~

—July 25, 2019: Zelenskiy and Trump have a phone conversation. The Ukrainian readout describes Trump as “convinced that the new Ukrainian government will be able to quickly improve image of Ukraine, complete investigation of corruption cases, which inhibited the interaction between Ukraine and the USA.” A less detailed White House readout said Trump called Zelenskiy “to congratulate him on his recent election.”

—Aug. 12, 2019: The inspector general of the intelligence community receives a complaint from a whistleblower describing an “urgent concern.” Over the ensuing two weeks, Inspector General Michael Atkinson investigates the complaint, determines that it meets the definition of an “urgent concern,” which could include a violation of the law or an executive order, and finds the complaint “credible.”

—Aug. 28, 2019: Politico reports that Trump has put a hold on $250 million in military aid to Ukraine.

—Sept. 9, 2019: Atkinson reveals the existence of the whistleblower’s complaint to lawmakers and the refusal of the acting director of national intelligence, Joseph Maguire, to transmit it to the intelligence committees as directed by the law. Atkinson notes that Maguire disagreed with his conclusions and appeared to be treating the complaint differently than in similar past cases.

Separately, three House committees announce a joint investigation into Giuliani’s activities in Ukraine, writing the administration seeking information and documents about Trump’s and Giuliani’s efforts “to coerce the Ukrainian government into pursuing two politically-motivated investigations under the guise of anti-corruption activity.”

—Sept. 11-12, 2019: In advance of a Senate Appropriations Committee vote designed to force the release of the $250 million military aid package, the administration relents and frees up the military aid, along with $142 billion in State Department funds. The panel is laden with Republicans sympathetic to Ukraine.

—Sept. 13, 2019: The House intelligence committee chairman, Adam Schiff, D-Calif., demands in letters that the whistleblower complaint be turned over to him in keeping with the law and past practice. Maguire refuses, and Schiff issues a subpoena for the complaint on Sept. 13. Maguire again refuses, claiming Schiff does not have a right to the document under a technical reading of the stature because the complaint concerns the “conduct by someone outside the intelligence community.” Maguire also says he is too busy to immediately testify before Schiff’s committee. A hearing is slated for Sept. 26.

—Sept. 19, 2019: The Washington Post and The New York Times report that the whistleblower’s complaint involves Trump’s call with the Ukrainian president. Giuliani makes an appearance on CNN and acknowledges he pressed Ukraine to investigate Biden.

—Sept. 20, 2019: Trump is asked if he brought up Biden in the call with Zelenskiy. He replies, “It doesn’t matter what I discussed.” He also uses the moment to urge the media “to look into” Biden’s background with Ukraine. A person who was briefed on the call said Trump urged Zelenskiy to investigate Biden’s son, Hunter, who worked for a Ukrainian gas company.

blm

(112,996 posts)
9. New Yorker article of July2019 on Hunter Biden
Tue Sep 24, 2019, 08:33 PM
Sep 2019

Goes into some detail on Ukraine, does NOT claim anything illegal happened. My guess is that Trump’s people expected this article to provide cover for their embellishments and consequently their next moves with Ukraine’s president.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/07/08/will-hunter-biden-jeopardize-his-fathers-campaign

Generic Other

(28,979 posts)
11. Fact Check May 24
Tue Sep 24, 2019, 08:48 PM
Sep 2019

President Donald Trump, in a lengthy interview on Fox News, made several statements that were false, misleading or not supported by the evidence:

A few days before Fox News aired the Trump interview, Yuriy Lutsenko, Ukraine’s current prosecutor general, gave his own interview to Bloomberg News and said: “Hunter Biden did not violate any Ukrainian laws at least as of now, we do not see any wrongdoing.”

Lutsenko told Bloomberg that the prosecutor general’s office in 2014 — before Shokin took office — opened a corruption investigation against Mykola Zlochevsky, the owner of Burisma, and numerous others. He said the probe’s focus was Serghi Kurchenko, who owned a number of gas companies, and a transaction that occurred in November 2013, months before Biden joined Burisma.


https://www.factcheck.org/2019/05/factchecking-trumps-fox-news-interview/

Generic Other

(28,979 posts)
14. Pence Gave Ukraine the Message Too
Tue Sep 24, 2019, 11:27 PM
Sep 2019

On September 1st, he met in Warsaw with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky. The next day he held a press conference with President Duda of Poland at which he was specifically asked whether he had pressed Zelensky to manufacture damaging information about Joe Biden and whether military aid was being held up until he did.

Pence started by saying he hadn’t and then proceeded to give an answer that made it pretty clear that he had, even if he had not mentioned the former Vice President by name. It caught the ear’s of everyone who was already following this story. It’s even more clear with what we learned last week.


https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/pence-gave-ukraine-the-message-too

Let's not let the ghost pepper off the hook.

brooklynite

(94,267 posts)
15. You mean like this?
Tue Sep 24, 2019, 11:30 PM
Sep 2019
Washington Post

The full Trump-Ukraine timeline — as of now

We learned late Monday that President Trump ordered the withholding of military aid to Ukraine about one week before his phone call with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky on July 25. It’s a detail that will add to questions about whether Trump was tying the aid to the Eastern European country investigating former vice president Joe Biden and his son Hunter.

A whistleblower complaint alleges that someone — apparently Trump — might have made an inappropriate “promise” to a foreign leader. Trump has denied this, but he has admitted to discussing the Bidens with Zelensky on that call, and he has suggested that it would be okay for him to withhold money from a country that doesn’t root out “corruption.”

The situation has Democrats inching closer to impeachment of Trump, whom they accuse of leveraging his office for personal political gain.

With everything evolving quickly, we’ve put together the following timeline. It will be updated as needed.

moondust

(19,954 posts)
16. Circumstantial.
Wed Sep 25, 2019, 12:23 AM
Sep 2019
~
Sen. Chris Murphy, D-Conn., a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, spoke with the foreign leader earlier this month during a visit to Ukraine. He told The Post that Zelensky "directly" expressed concerns at their meeting that "the aid that was being cut off to Ukraine by the president was a consequence of his unwillingness to launch an investigation into the Bidens."
~
http://www.salon.com/2019/09/24/trump-confirms-he-withheld-military-aid-from-ukraine-before-call-with-nations-leader/

That was weeks ago. Did Zelensky just imagine a connection between the aid being cut off and investigating the Bidens? Did he broach the subject with Sen. Murphy, maybe to sound the alarm? Would he bother to say anything about it if he wasn't pretty sure he was being pressured?

 

Laura PourMeADrink

(42,770 posts)
18. Not in timeline format but lots of good info
Wed Sep 25, 2019, 01:11 AM
Sep 2019

On Sondland and Rudy and Ukraine. Didn't know Rudy's mission strarted with finding dirt on the origins of Mueller. Then shifted to Ukraine and Bidens..

https://www.thedailybeast.com/impeachment-inquiry-us-ambassador-roped-into-rudy-giulianis-quest-to-smear-biden

Response to blm (Original post)

wiggs

(7,806 posts)
25. the Ukraine story goes further back, at least to Manafort. No need to hold the current
Wed Sep 25, 2019, 07:55 PM
Sep 2019

whistleblower/scandal in isolation...can add dates further back per Seth

https://www.newsweek.com/trump-impeachment-pelosi-tip-iceberg-manafort-1461143

blm

(112,996 posts)
26. Yes, the New Yorker piece goes back, too, and
Wed Sep 25, 2019, 08:12 PM
Sep 2019

Is very compelling with plenty of details, thoroughly poring over his son’s life, but, pretty clear at the end that Biden did nothing illegal.

Nevermypresident

(781 posts)
28. Fascinating Susan Simpson twitter feed on ANOTHER potentially weird withholding of Ukraine aid
Wed Sep 25, 2019, 09:45 PM
Sep 2019

I can't possibly copy and paste all of these tweets.  But, believe me, they are worth digging into to re:trump, ghouliani, and Ukraine that I haven't heard:

"1) The PGO, (Prosecutors General Office of Ukraine) which initiates prosecutions, had been designated to receive over $4M in U.S. foreign aid; (2) State Dept cuts off all funding to PGO, citing its "lack of political will for genuine reform"; (3) PGO suddenly opens an investigation into Trump's opponents. (Hillary Clinton and her campaign's election interference in 2016!)" March 2019

Here are a few tweets from the threads (a lot of info here):




Ex: "I don't think Trump was talking about Shokin at all. I think he meant Shokin's successor, Lutsenko. The (Ukrainian) prosecutor who, in March, initiated an investigation into 2016 election interference (by Clinton). After the Trump administration withheld $4.4M from his office."




Ex: "A couple days after this call (the April trump-Zelensky call), Trump went on Hannity and claimed that the Ukrainians had evidence of Hillary working with Ukraine to interfere in 2016, and that the Ukrainians would be handing that evidence over to AG Barr for him to hopefully prosecute. "





The tweets above are but a few in her threads. For continuity, I recommend reading her timeline etc. If anyone can instruct me how to to just copy/paste a large amount of tweets to DU, I will be glad to do (I can not get it all of them copied over here correctly).

blm

(112,996 posts)
30. Big update:
Wed Sep 25, 2019, 09:53 PM
Sep 2019

Why Was Ukraine's Top Prosecutor Fired? The Issue At The Heart Of The Dispute Gripping Washington
.............
Trump and his allies, including his personal lawyer, Rudolph Giuliani, the former mayor of New York, accuse Biden of using his position as vice president and point man on relations with Kyiv in 2016 to help Burisma -- a Ukrainian energy company that was paying Biden's son Hunter, who was on its board of directors -- avoid damage from a criminal investigation.

They assert that Shokin was overseeing an active criminal investigation into Burisma and that Biden at the time told Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko that the United States would withhold $1 billion in loan guarantees unless Shokin was fired.

But Ukrainian prosecutors and anti-corruption activists with knowledge of the matter argue that the timeline of developments in the Burisma case and Shokin's stint as chief prosecutor simply does not fit the narrative being put forward by Trump and his allies.
..............

"There was no pressure from anyone from the United States" to close the case against Zlochevskiy, Vitaliy Kasko, who was a deputy prosecutor-general under Shokin and is now first deputy prosecutor-general, told Bloomberg News in May. "It was shelved by Ukrainian prosecutors in 2014 and through 2015," he added.

Activists say the case had been sabotaged by Shokin himself. As an example, they say two months before Hunter Biden joined Burisma's board, British authorities had requested information from Shokin's office as part of an investigation into alleged money laundering by Zlochevskiy. Shokin ignored them. ..............

https://www.rferl.org/a/why-was-ukraine-top-prosecutor-fired-viktor-shokin/30181445.html

Ilsa

(61,688 posts)
32. Also, Russian State TV knew that Trump
Thu Sep 26, 2019, 10:18 PM
Sep 2019

was banning top US officials from attending the Ukrainian inauguration:

https://www.inquisitr.com/5657961/russia-knew-donald-trump-banned-officials-ukraine-inaugural/

Days before the May 20 inauguration of Ukraine president Volodymyr Zelensky, Russian state TV appears to know that Donald Trump would not permit top U.S. officials to attend.

Nevermypresident

(781 posts)
33. Meet the Soviet-born businessmen tangled in Trump's impeachment inquiry. They live in Florida.
Fri Sep 27, 2019, 05:35 PM
Sep 2019
https://amp.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/article235501772.html?__twitter_impression=true

snipped:

"Two South Florida businessmen from the former Soviet Union could find themselves dragged into an impeachment inquiry targeting President Donald Trump over their political activities in Ukraine.

Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman were cited — although not by name — in a government whistleblower complaint released Thursday alleging improper behavior by the president. Parnas and Fruman helped introduce Trump’s personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, into top Ukrainian political circles, according to widespread media accounts."
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