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berni_mccoy

(23,018 posts)
Wed Sep 25, 2019, 02:14 PM Sep 2019

Remember Kids, Trump can't be pardoned for any crimes he is impeached for


I have every expectation that Trump WON'T resign before an Impeachment Resolution passes.

And once impeached, if he is removed from office, he cannot be pardoned by his successor, whoever that may be.

Why?

Because of this:

President "shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment"

This is why Nixon resigned before articles of impeachment were voted on.
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Remember Kids, Trump can't be pardoned for any crimes he is impeached for (Original Post) berni_mccoy Sep 2019 OP
Does not include offenses against any State. elleng Sep 2019 #1
I usually don't pity Republicons customerserviceguy Sep 2019 #2
Believe the Pardon's thing Wellstone ruled Sep 2019 #3
Does that mean he can be tried for those crimes intrepidity Sep 2019 #4
I think this is largely untested. berni_mccoy Sep 2019 #5
I think that is way too broad stopdiggin Sep 2019 #10
I think you are mis-reading this. Thunderbeast Sep 2019 #6
It depends if you see Impeachment as a crime. It says "in cases of Impeachment" berni_mccoy Sep 2019 #9
disagree entirely. unblock Sep 2019 #7
I'll agree that this is untested. We are in uncharted territory berni_mccoy Sep 2019 #8
Article I, Section 3 sarisataka Sep 2019 #11
Plus, the second half of that states: intrepidity Sep 2019 #14
I did not realize I looked up an excerpt sarisataka Sep 2019 #17
Yep nt intrepidity Sep 2019 #18
Since we're now discussing plain language interpretations of this intrepidity Sep 2019 #12
Clinton issued pardons and the end of his term, even though he was impeached fishwax Sep 2019 #13
However, once an impeachment vote is scheduled... kentuck Sep 2019 #15
You are mistaken. That language was based on the 1701 Act of Settlement onenote Sep 2019 #16
Impeachment and conviction are not criminal convictions, they just remove the subject from office. Voltaire2 Sep 2019 #19

customerserviceguy

(25,183 posts)
2. I usually don't pity Republicons
Wed Sep 25, 2019, 02:17 PM
Sep 2019

but I'd have to feel that way for whoever gets the short straw to deliver that news to Trump.

intrepidity

(7,272 posts)
4. Does that mean he can be tried for those crimes
Wed Sep 25, 2019, 02:22 PM
Sep 2019

in a criminal case, post-impeachment, and *that* conviction cannot be pardoned?

Can he be criminally indicted, post-impeachment, for crimes he was impeached for?

stopdiggin

(11,235 posts)
10. I think that is way too broad
Wed Sep 25, 2019, 02:43 PM
Sep 2019

any prosecutions following removal would be subject to traditional pardons. and the likelihood is that there will be a "preemptive" pardon before any prosecutions take place.

Thunderbeast

(3,400 posts)
6. I think you are mis-reading this.
Wed Sep 25, 2019, 02:29 PM
Sep 2019

Trump can not be pardoned from the consequences of impeachment. I believe he CAN be pardoned from criminal procedures pre-emptively (eg Ford pardoning Nixon).

State crimes are out of the reach of a President's power to pardon.

If Trump is convicted by the Senate and removed from office, he would still be exposed to Federal criminal prosecution. SDNY already has him named as a co-conspirator in the Stormy Daniels payoff. Unless Pence pardons him, or he tries to pardon himself, he will face those and other criminal consequences. THEN, the State of New York will get it's bite of the apple.

I'm no lawyer, but I think that's how it works. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

berni_mccoy

(23,018 posts)
9. It depends if you see Impeachment as a crime. It says "in cases of Impeachment"
Wed Sep 25, 2019, 02:33 PM
Sep 2019

I read that to be crimes that result in impeachment.

This is untested as far as I know.

unblock

(52,112 posts)
7. disagree entirely.
Wed Sep 25, 2019, 02:29 PM
Sep 2019

i suppose we have to allow that the supreme court has never ruled on such a matter, so we don't have definitive case history on this question.

however, the plain reading is that this was meant to prevent a president from blocking or nullifying congress's power to impeach by pardoning other senior officers (or conceivably, himself). it does not reasonably imply, imho, that an impeached person can't later be pardoned to remove criminal liability.

it's especially difficult to correlate the two because grounds for impeachment may or may not line up exactly with federal criminal code.

so someone might be impeached for some general "abuse of office" and later be tried under a very specific section of the criminal code relating to a similar incident, but would "except in cases of impeachment" apply if the charge is technically different?


moreover, just because congress decided to impeach someone, it's not at all clear to me that the founders would have intended that to nullify the presidential pardon power. especially if the senate failed to convict.


more directly, a "criminal case" is different from a "case of impeachment".

so donnie couldn't prevent congress from impeaching barr if congress decided to pursue that, but he could keep barr out of prison by pardoning him.

more important, pence could certainly pardon donnie even if he were to be impeached and possibly removed. it wouldn't save his job, but it would keep him out of federal prison.

state prison is another matter....

 

berni_mccoy

(23,018 posts)
8. I'll agree that this is untested. We are in uncharted territory
Wed Sep 25, 2019, 02:32 PM
Sep 2019

But I think the plain language reads both ways:

He can pardon crimes except in case of impeachment. This could be as you interpret it or it could be the crimes (that lead to impeachment) can't be pardoned.

I don't recall any judge that has been impeached as receiving a pardon.

sarisataka

(18,472 posts)
11. Article I, Section 3
Wed Sep 25, 2019, 02:56 PM
Sep 2019

"Judgement in cases of impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any office of honor, trust or profit under the United States"

This is what cannot be pardoned.

Attempting to twist the language to extend the pardon prohibition to criminal charges would open the door to arguments that the "shall not extend further" means they person cannot stand trial for the offence they were impeached. (Which, frankly, is a stronger argument)

intrepidity

(7,272 posts)
14. Plus, the second half of that states:
Wed Sep 25, 2019, 03:05 PM
Sep 2019
Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.


sarisataka

(18,472 posts)
17. I did not realize I looked up an excerpt
Wed Sep 25, 2019, 03:17 PM
Sep 2019

I usually go to the full text.

That portion eliminates both arguments by defining the limit of "cases of impeachment" and clearly stating further prosecution is possible.

intrepidity

(7,272 posts)
12. Since we're now discussing plain language interpretations of this
Wed Sep 25, 2019, 02:57 PM
Sep 2019

I've wondered if this might mean: the pardon-power disappears if the President is impeached.

Could that be what this says?

kentuck

(111,051 posts)
15. However, once an impeachment vote is scheduled...
Wed Sep 25, 2019, 03:06 PM
Sep 2019

he could resign before it happened and receive a full pardon from his successor.

onenote

(42,531 posts)
16. You are mistaken. That language was based on the 1701 Act of Settlement
Wed Sep 25, 2019, 03:16 PM
Sep 2019

Which limited the exercise of the pardon power in England by providing that "no Pardon under the Great Seal of England be pleadable to an Impeachment by the Commons in Parliament".

In other words, it is intended to limit pardons from being used as a defense in an impeachment proceeding. It doesn't mean a pardon grant be given to someone who is not only impeached but also subject to criminal prosecution.

Voltaire2

(12,939 posts)
19. Impeachment and conviction are not criminal convictions, they just remove the subject from office.
Wed Sep 25, 2019, 03:23 PM
Sep 2019

A president cannot undo an impeachment conviction with a pardon, and that is all that clause says.

Also note that impeachment does not prevent subsequent criminal indictment for the same offenses.

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