Military conundrum

[maxrandb]

I served for 30 years and retired as an old Navy Mustang Officer.

I thought I had a pretty good understanding of the UCMJ and chain of command stuff, but I'm honestly confused... and so pissed I can't see straight... about the orange amphibian turds pardoning of convicted war criminals and those facing Court Martial for possible war crimes.

I was always instructed that I was not obligated to follow "unlawful" orders.

How is pardoning a war crimes a "lawful order"?

How is blocking administrative actions to remove an obviously unqualified person from the "highly screened" elite SEAL force a lawful order?

Are we now going to allow any president to reach down so far into the weeds to write individual orders about where individual military members are going to be assigned?

If the president were to decide that Ivanka should be the Commanding Officer of the Navy's newest aircraft carrier, is that lawful?

I don't know how the fuck far down this rabbit hole we want to go, but trust me... knowing what my experience has been, and knowing the absolute importance of unit cohesion, command climate and good order and discipline...I feel a hell of a lot less safe right now

So should America.

[rampartc]

1. good order and discipline

chain of command

trump overstepped his own authority to the detriment of good order and discispline and weakened the chain of command.

if trump likes this renegade chief so much, transfer him to the white house.

when I pissed off my xo I was transferred to a desk in manila. it was a dirty job, but somebody had to do it.

[gratuitous]

2. I appreciate your perspective

I can't believe that Trump's micromanaging and meddling in military affairs is any good for morale, but without military experience, it's good to hear from those who have that experience.

On no factual basis whatever but the law of averages, I assume there are active duty and retired or otherwise separated military personnel who support Trump, his pardoning war criminals, and his forcing the military to retain those pardoned. I wonder what their argument is for supporting Trump?

[Hoyt]

3. GOPers have no problem with killing Muslims and desecrating their remains.

Navy Seals should have been shut down on early 2000s after they sent photographs home to their wives and girlfriends of innocent Iraqis they beat while handcuffed and blindfolded.

I suspect most trump supporters are fine with his actions.

[Aristus]

4. I don't know how to answer the rest of your question, since I wasn't an officer,

but I will say, when I went through Basic Training back in 1986, we had an entire afternoon of classes about the Role of the Army, including lawful orders and war crimes.

We were told, in no uncertain terms, that if we were given an unlawful order, we were required by law (not to mention morality, ethics, and common humanity) to disobey that order. There was no equivocation on the subject.

[maxrandb]

6. That is my understanding as well

I'm guessing that since it's in the presidents power to pardon, the pardon itself is "lawful". I'm pretty sure that folks with law degrees know much more than I.

Unless it's done for corrupt purposes, I don't think there is anything else Congress or anyone can do.

Of course, it probably was done for corrupt purposes. This president has advocated for the commission of war crimes. From stealing oil to approving indiscriminate bombings.

I'm still not sure about intervention in the administrative process of screening people for elite positions in the military.

There's a whole host of regulations about standards that must be met for certain military positions.

Are we to just throw those out as well?

This is a fucking soup sandwich.

[nykym]

5. Well at least you can

have a little closure.
Accepting a presidential pardon is an admission of guilt.

[Wounded Bear]

7. The military justice system, like DOJ, is supposed to be outside the chain of command...

and is supposed to operate independently. What Trump/Barr is doing to DOJ, Trump is now doing to the military justice system, overriding a verdict brought by a military tribunal, therefore telling all military personnel that they should be loyal to Trump and not to their oath of enlistment/commission.

You're right to be concerned.

[Boxerfan]

8. Huge GOP blindspot- the sacrifices made for our freedom.

They have no idea-the fact they play huggee squeezee with Putin is more than proof.

They are traitors that should be shunned from society-and derided every time they try to pull the same old sheets they have used since-forever.

There will always be rich greedy & stupid. Just someone decided it was to the benefit of the Rich to feed them ala AM talk radio.

Worked better than they imagined & now they have a problem beyond scope of our forefathers.

Thank you for your service.