"... most men, even good caring men, have no clue what we go through on a daily basis..."

[redqueen]

Wil Wheaton shared this tumblr post, I wish I could paste it all here.


http://wilwheaton.tumblr.com/post/30893188563/i-debated-whether-or-not-to-share-this-story?og=1&fb_action_ids=221133974679819&fb_action_types=tumblr-feed%3Areblog&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=%7B%22221133974679819%22%3A364166806991986%7D&action_type_map=%7B%22221133974679819%22%3A%22tumblr-feed%3Areblog%22%7D&action_ref_map

I debated whether or not to share this story.

unwinona:

And then I debated whether or not to put it on Tumblr…but I decided it was important. Because in my own way, I can (unfortunately) point out exactly what is wrong with men when they don’t realize how hard it is to be a woman. How we do not have equal opportunities and freedoms in everyday life. How most men, even good caring men, have no clue what we go through on a daily basis just trying to live our lives.

...

Without fail, I am aggressively approached by men on at least half of these commutes. The most common approach is to walk up to where I am sitting with body language that practically screams LEAVE ME ALONE and sit down next to me or as close to me as possible, when the train is not crowded and there are many empty rows. Sometimes an overly friendly arm is draped over the railing behind me, or they attempt to lean in close to talk to me as if we are old friends. Without fail, the man or boy in question will lean to close and ask me

What are you reading?

Is that a good book?

What’s that book about?

This serves the double purpose of getting my attention and trapping me in a conversation. If I stop reading the book I enjoy to talk to you, random stranger, you hit on me or just stay way too close to me. If I tell you to leave me alone, you get mad at me. Because I somehow, as a woman, owe you conversation.

...

This went on for two stops. No one came to see what was happening. The man in the last row was as frozen as I was. I’m not angry he didn’t come to my defense. He was smaller, older, and frailer-looking than I was. Again, I was worried if I got up, I would be turning my back on him to walk down the aisle. In the state he was in, I had no guarantee it wouldn’t get physical, and I had more physical strength with my back to the window and feet in kicking position where I was. If he had chosen to assault me, I would only be making it easier for him by standing up and putting myself directly in his path. On and on, over and over, he screamed at me, screamed at his dead mother, screamed at me again.

So when people (men) want to talk about “legitimate” forms of assault, tell girls they should be nice to strangers and give men the benefit of a doubt, tell them to consider it a compliment, tell them to ignore the bad behavior of men, I want them to be forced to feel, for even one minute, what it feels like to have so much verbal hatred and physical intimidation thrown at them for nothing more than being female and not wanting to share.

...

This is why I loudly and angrily berate men who are shitty to women.

This is why I stand up for women’s rights.

This is why, as a 40 year-old man, I’m starting to realize that I’m more of a feminist than I thought I was.

[Ohio Joe]

1. K&R - nt

[Tansy_Gold]

2. The only error.

"Because I somehow, as a woman, owe you conversation."


it's actually much more than this. He is a man, and I am a woman, and therefore he owns me. He has a right to anything I have, which of course includes my body first and foremost, but also my mind, my thoughts, my emotions, my time, my labor. I have no right to any of those, or at least no right that supercedes his. By the very state of being male, he lays claim to the Me. And he does not like to be reminded that maybe I don't accept that claim.

The thing is, if the roles were reversed and it were a man writing this essay, he would not feel assaulted if three young ladies draped themselves over the back of his train seat. He would feel flattered, and he would not be able to understand why a woman wouldn't feel the same way. He wouldn't understand that it's a matter of choice -- and a matter of vulnerability. He would know that if the young women were to physically assault him and he called for help, virtually every man around him would come to his aid. No one would stand around and cheer for the assailants. Assault of a man is assault. It's not cute, it's not persuasive seduction, it's not sexual game playing. It's assault.

But for the woman, there is no assurance that any strangers would come to her aid. Indeed, there is not always the assurance that "authorities" will come to her aid. There is always the fear that the police themselves will look the other way, will blame her for flirting, for not being nice enough, for dressing too sexy, for asking for it. It's her fault -- it's my fault -- just for being female.

No, it's not my fault. And no, I don't owe any man anything.


Good for Wil Wheaton for having some sense of understanding.

And thanks, redqueen, for posting it here.

[redqueen]

6. Beautifully stated.

Thank you.

[LadyHawkAZ]

4. not legal in all states, not legal at all, not legal in all states,

not legal in all states, not always effective.

And then factor in that a lot of women don't know how to use them or are simply too small to use them effectively (in the case of the highly illegal switchblade) and a weapon you can't use or don't know how to use is the other guys weapon. And then figure in the approaching prison time after you explain to the police that you shot/stabbed/maced a guy for sitting too close and asking about your book. How about you tell these guys, when you see them at it, to stop being assholes instead?

[gaspee]

5. Typical

Guy response. What a surprise.

[JoeyT]

7. Given the current culture of blaming

victims, including telling them that they didn't do enough to make a harasser go away, how well do you think it'll go when someone takes your advice?

Aside from the rape whistle, which are worthless at best in almost any situation and may make a lot of bad situations worse, all the solutions you listed are crimes to use unless force is warranted. Unless someone has crossed a line where a judge or jury would be ok with the person they're harassing picking up a baseball at and beating the dogshit out of them, it's the woman that's being harassed that's going to jail when she turns the conflict physical. Even if she only brandishes the weapon (Which is always a bad idea: Never pull a weapon you don't intend to use immediately.) she's still probably going to be the one arrested.

Your post actually helps reinforce the point of the OP: Women are not going to be allowed to win in these situations. If they don't drive the guy away with fire and thunder, clearly they wanted him there. If they do shoot/cut/taze/spray him, they're painted as crazy bitches that overreact over nothing and will probably see jail time because of it.

So we're either going to have to create a culture where it's ok for any woman to gun down any man at any time for any reason and not question her motives, or we're (We being dudes mostly, but society in general works too.) going to have to step up and start ostracizing the guys that harass and intervening when we see it happen. We can't have it both ways.

[Tansy_Gold]

8. No, a thousand times no.

The "victim" isn't doing anything wrong. What about that don't you understand?

It's the MEN who are behaving badly. Why not tell them to . . . . . stop?

Essentially what you're saying is that if she doesn't kill the guy, she must really like what he's doing, so he should feel free to go ahead and keep doing it!



Obviously, someone didn't get Mr. Wheaton's message.

[gollygee]

13. "Polite and accommodating little victim" ????

Can you listen to yourself? You just gave the most perfect example of blaming the victim I've ever seen. Complete pass to the perpetrator. Nice job.

[DURHAM D]

15. It is unusual to open DU in the morning and see

a poster showing how little he understands the challenges met by females in our culture and revealing for all to see that he is not a progressive, liberal or even a regular Democrat.

Well, No not really. I see your favorite group is The Gungeon.


Edit: How this poster thinks - a prior post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=74717#edits

[seabeyond]

20. i see it too much on du anymore. this is why, when we continually point the finger at repugs

i always say it is not a party issue. du is filled with it.

and you are right, googling the profile there is a lot of gungeon favorites.

[Posteritatis]

31. Is it, really?

There's some weapons-grade stupidity coming from a lot of guys on DU around here when women's issues come up a lot of the time. It's sad, especially in this day and age.

[redqueen]

37. I had the same thought.

It doesn't seem at all unusual to me.

[DURHAM D]

40. No.

[Starry Messenger]

49. This. nt.

[Burma Jones]

9. There's a lot of easily accessed exceptionally hateful porn

porn targeted to sexually (and otherwise) frustrated men. Porn that tells them that it's OK to assault women - and the illusion is just a click away.

This is a splendid culture in which to be considered an oddball...........

[redqueen]

11. Many would like to pretend that that stuff isn't very popular,

that it's hard to find, etc.

If only.

[4th law of robotics]

44. Nine comments before someone blamed porn

About average.

[seabeyond]

59. 1 post in and you dismiss the Op, womens concern, to attack. nt

[4th law of robotics]

60. I did nothing of the sort

I will thank you to address what I've actually said and not put words in my mouth.


I dismissed the notion that porn is to blame for this.

The problem is real, the cause in this case is not.

[Burma Jones]

64. Not ALL Porn

Read Chris Hedges' "Empire of Illusion" for a description of the particular genre of porn I mean.....

There's plenty of porn where the woman is not some Loser's revenge fantasy......

[4th law of robotics]

65. There are no real scientific studies linking porn use to violence against women

even specific genres of porn.

Look at porn-crazed Sweden and compare it to Saudi Arabia where porn ist verboten.

Who treats women better?

/it isn't the porn.

[Brickbat]

10. This reminds me of the cartoon I posted on DU2 last year.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9062677

[KitSileya]

12. I missed this one the first time around, so thanks for sharing it again.

I even read the comments - wow, what a sewer!

[Brickbat]

88. You're welcome.

It was a hard conversation, but I do think many people listened.

[Blue_Tires]

18. Sad to get a reminder how many longtime DU names I never see anymore...

[Brickbat]

89. That's the damn truth, right there.

[redqueen]

19. Thanks.

I've seen the comic but it is good to have it linked here. Not sure what to say about the discussion. The more things change..., I guess.

[Brickbat]

90. It was a frustrating conversation, and it's frustrating to have it over and over again.

I try to answer questions when asked, though. But it is hard.

[seabeyond]

21. i re read some of that thread. as i said above, a reminder that misogyny is not party specific. nt

[Brickbat]

92. Yep. Some of the worst woman-haters I know are self-described progressives.

So frustrating.

[KitSileya]

16. This is a clear example of Schrødinger's rapist.

Every time a man thinks he's entitled to a woman's time/attention/smile/feelings, she must assess whether he will take no for an answer, or whether he will turn from "what are you reading" to "don't think you're special, bitch" or worse. Men complain that women aren't clear in their rejections, ignoring the fact that most of those rejections should have been unnecessary (if she's reading a book or listening to music, she's not interested in talking to you, asshole!) or that most women know full well how threatening some men can become if they don't get what they want from her. We don't know which man will assault us and which man will not, so the safest assumption is to think they will.

And if any man has a problem with that, they should take it up with other men, not with us!

[seabeyond]

22. if any man has a problem with that, they should take it up with other men, not with us!

perfect. thank you.

[KitSileya]

27. Yeah - I've been reading Captain Awkward these past few weeks.

And reading the comments to Brickbat's posted cartoon just makes it so clear that whenever men have problems with how women treat men, they should look to their own gender first. We've all had experiences of men pushing themselves at us, and either being too polite(scared) to tell them outright we don't want to talk to them, or, if we do, getting the "but whyyyyyyyyy? I am just trying to be niiiiiiiiice. You don't haaaaave to be such a biiiiiiitch about it"-whine, or the "don't be so uppity, bitch" aggressive retort.

It is awful that men feel entitled to lobby comments at/hit on/grab women on the street. It's like being poked, poked, poked, poked, poked over and over again. How would men feel if someone randomly pinched their sides everytime they're out of the house, and they would be told to take it as a compliment every time they complained about it? Don't they think that very soon they would twitch every time they saw even the shadow of a hand nearing their abdomen? That they would start judging everyone varily to see whether this person will be yet another pincher? And get angry when a blissfully bruise-free woman would tell them that she wished she would get pinched?

[Johnny Noshoes]

177. Maybe I'm not...

Maybe I'm not the typical guy. I just don't get how so many guys act like they're god's gift. Leave her ALONE man don't you have a sister don't you have a mother. Well that woman on the train or the street or wherever is somebody's sister or mother or daughter - show some respect be a mensch.

[CrispyQ]

68. This:

she must assess whether he will take no for an answer, or whether he will turn from "what are you reading" to "don't think you're special, bitch" or worse.

and this...

We don't know which man will assault us and which man will not, so the safest assumption is to think they will.

What is so hard about this, for men to understand?

[Scout]

69. "What is so hard about this, for men to understand? "

that is an excellent question!

women are damned if they do, damned if they don't. fucking sick of it. since we will be damned either way, do what we need to do to stay safe.

[LadyHawkAZ]

125. I really, really dislike the Schrodinger's Rapist idea

and hate seeing it held up as an example. It says to me that we've degenerated into such fear that everyone is automatically a threat until proven otherwise. When we start letting fear paralyze us, not only are we hurting ourselves but we're actually making ourselves a target for the type of person she describes.

The type of person who will block a stranger into a bus seat or wrap an arm around them from behind is the kind that feeds on fear. They are doing it because they know that person is afraid of it. Bullies, in other words. When the bully makes you afraid, they win. Then they go on to do it again to someone else. This doesn't help anyone, and neither does assuming everyone is by default a bully. Once someone does that, they also start reacting to everyone like a bullying victim, and it becomes a cycle because people will treat them accordingly.

There's a truckload of things wrong with the story in the OP but trying to solve it by saying "all men are like this until proven otherwise" helps no one. Least of all women.

[KitSileya]

131. You don't think most women think like this, consciously or sub-consciously?

Everytime we're in unknown, or dark, or unwieldy territory? How do you suggest we stop? (And this is not me being snide, here, but sincerely wanting to know.)

I have a 6-year old niece, and I would love for her to grow up without having to be afraid. However, having been sexually assaulted myself at 10 years old while playing outdoors, I have a heightened awareness whenever I am semi-secluded with any strange men.

[LadyHawkAZ]

134. I went through it a little after I was raped

which was actually silly: my attacker wasn't a stranger and it took place in my house, not out of it. It's a pretty common trauma reaction. I can't speak for how other women get past it; I finally just refused to be afraid, did the stuff I found scary in spite of it and eventually it went away (I do this any time I'm having major life issues: go out and try to do one thing that scares me, every day). I don't really worry until someone does something annoying- I can relate to some of the problems in the OP- but I've never not been able to handle that. Arrogant aggression is a potent turnoff, apparently, and I don't care enough about what strangers think to be bothered by them calling me names afterward.

Up until I started the thyroid medication, I had some very real issues with people treading uninvited into my personal space, which is why I know how to keep them from sitting with me on a bus, but that had a physical cause and wasn't gender specific. When I got in a down mood I didn't want anyone near me at all. That's faded a lot with the medication.

Truth be told, in dark places I'm usually more worried about my wallet than my physical safety.

[redqueen]

146. It seems like you're saying bullying is the victim's fault.

The type of person who will block a stranger into a bus seat or wrap an arm around them from behind is the kind that feeds on fear. They are doing it because they know that person is afraid of it. Bullies, in other words. When the bully makes you afraid, they win. Then they go on to do it again to someone else. This doesn't help anyone, and neither does assuming everyone is by default a bully. Once someone does that, they also start reacting to everyone like a bullying victim, and it becomes a cycle because people will treat them accordingly.

I know I must be reading you wrong here, but these two statements in particular really sound very wrong to me. As if you're putting the onus on innocent people to correct or prevent the future bad behavior of assholes.

That logic sounds like the same reasoning that's been used in regard to schoolyard bullies for centuries, and it hasn't changed anything.

[LadyHawkAZ]

166. I don't always write well when it's late and I'm tired

and I'm going to refer you to Seabeyond's post since she was obviously awake and on her game.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1282891

[HiPointDem]

137. "on a daily basis"? no.

[gollygee]

17. Terrifying story

I'm glad she was OK in the end. Wow.

I get the "what are you reading" thing too. It's frustrating. I take a book to make it clear I don't want attention, but then the book is a entry point for unwanted attention. But if you don't have a book with you, it's like you're sitting there waiting for someone to chat with you. There's no winning.

[Blue_Tires]

25. books are always going to draw attention

they are by far the easiest "in" to starting a conversation, and the tactic has been on page one of every pick-up guide ever written...

a good way to deflect unwanted attention is to read while listening to an ipod and yelling "WHAT?" to anything the guy says...I've also known of girls who use some app that makes their phone ring on demand at just the most inconvenient time...

[gollygee]

28. We're also told not to listen to iPods

because it makes us unaware of our surroundings.

[seabeyond]

41. so many rules to not being harrassed, assaulted and raped....

ya know.

and yes to all both yawl are saying.

[datasuspect]

72. any Apple shit you wear or hold (on public transit) is like painting a big target on your forehead

male or female.

If you live in any populated area, especially on transit, you MUST ABSOLUTELY be aware of your surroundings.

you see these oblivious people wandering about finger fucking devices paying absolutely no attention whatsoever to anything.

even people driving in cars. it's freaking amazing sometimes how stupid everyone has become in such a short period of time.

[LadyHawkAZ]

87. You're kidding. Seriously?

I find them an effective "Don't talk to me" device. I have more than one sense and can be aware of my surroundings with my eyes.

For the truly persistent, I've also found that spreading out across both seats usually works (bus drivers won't usually bug you if your feet aren't on the seat and train conductors don't notice). If all of the above fail, some variant of "Fuck Off" usually takes care of the few that just won't get the hint. They can call me all the bad names they want- from another seat. I have my iPod on, can't hear it and don't care.

[redqueen]

96. Yep. Self defense advice often includes a warning not to wear them.

In fact that tip is so old I remember hearing it about walkmen.

[LadyHawkAZ]

114. I think I remember hearing it

I circular-filed it next to "don't dress like a slut" and "don't go drinking in bars". I like my music when I'm out and about. There's a fine line between reasonable safety and trading my freedom for it.

[Solly Mack]

23. I once asked a regular customer if he was feeling better

and was sorry I did.

He had a headache (he asked for an aspirin) a few days before and thought he was coming down with the flu. When I saw him next I asked how he was feeling. I was just being polite. He was a regular customer.

This man decided I was interested in him or I would have never asked about his health. I put a stop to his advances but I was completely creeped out by his assumption. (and his actions)


He said I wasn't "just" being polite but that I was coming on to him...otherwise I wouldn't have remembered he had a headache. And, yes - he got very angry with me for "leading him on".

[hfojvt]

24. that happens on a daily basis?

But that's kinda why people do not like mass transit too.

Clearly, bicycle man was one disturbed individual. The other male in the car was not happy sharing a car with him either. Nor was that businessman prepared to deal with those three thugs. He felt safer pretending to be a tough guy after they were gone, but in realy time he was AFRAID, yes afraid, to tell them to shut up.

But at the same time, it is not really nice to basically tell people to fuck off when they try to start a conversation with you.

"A soft answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger." Proverbs 15: 1

Then again "the mouth (or keyboard) of fools pours forth foolishness" Proverbs 15: 2 - by which I mean, MY keyboard.

[Blue_Tires]

29. LOL

"Nor was that businessman prepared to deal with those three thugs. He felt safer pretending to be a tough guy after they were gone, but in realy time he was AFRAID, yes afraid, to tell them to shut up."

I instantly read through his little after-the-fact-tough-guy ruse, too...I'm surprised the author actually commended him for his faux chivalry instead of seeing he was after the same thing the other three boys were -- He was just using a different approach...

[redqueen]

30. If you're nice, you could end up being treated to a view of the man rubbing himself,

while 'complimenting' your appearance.

We cannot win. If someone's is busy reading a book, that is not an invitation for anyone to start a conversation with them. Interrupting people who are busy for no reason is rude, let alone all the other behaviors described.

[Blue_Tires]

43. hfojvt does have a point

I realize the writer has had some negative experiences, and every person/situation is different, but judging by her words, the writer is sounding like she's assuming every guy who approaches her has assault/rape/grope intentions tattooed on his face and just reflexively lashes out like a trapped Cobra...I'm not condoning any of the guys' behavior, I'm just saying there is a little give-and-take here, and that she can learn to properly read guys and effectively brush guys off while still allowing them to save face...Too many people take being humiliated in public as some kind of general "Now I've got to prove myself"-challenge, and what was once a harmless situation becomes a minor or major one...

[seabeyond]

45. maybe if more women and girls were a little more aggressive, more men would no longer feel a right

to harrassment.

[Blue_Tires]

50. Possibly

But based on what the writer is saying, I'm guessing pre-emptive aggression is inviting more harassment than she'd normally get...Especially if she's dealing with boys in their teens/early twenties...just imo

[seabeyond]

54. then again, it would be on them. look, women are continually told to speak softy to the male cause

of his fragile ego. dont wanna hurt the ego. then on the other hand, we are told we are not straight to the point and "aggressive" like males so we dont hold the management positions, then lectured on staying "feminine" at all cost.

at what point is it NOT about the woman?

[Blue_Tires]

57. excellent points...

[MadrasT]

58. Amen, sea. n/t

[redqueen]

62. This! You said it perfectly - we can't win.

... unless we're saying we love the attention and making excuses for the rude harassment. That tends to get a warm welcome from most.

[KitSileya]

63. You are so right, seabeyond.

Women are damned if we do, damned if we don't. It's always our fault, and we're a bitch either way.

What is coded ok for men is coded aggressive for women. We may not have to put o- in front of every word to be polite, like in Japanese, but we'd better not just say no and leave it at that. We must hedge, and be polite, and be soft-spoken.... or we're bitches. While men... well, they have a god-given right to hit on women whenever, wherever. It doesn't matter whether it's on a train at 1030pm, or alone in an elevator - we must let them have a chance to hit on us, otherwise we're bitches.

Well, I say that any person who thinks like that is an asshole, and I don't care how aggressive I may come across in saying that.

[Scout]

85. perfectly said ... especially the last paragraph. n/t

[hfojvt]

130. well for my part

If I am on a train or in a plane or in a car or with Babar, if I ask a woman what she is reading, I am probably not trying to hit on her. Just trying to have a conversation about books and/or authors, and I asked the woman at the store about her last name because I am in to family history. I happen to have owned a bookstore and done lots of family history research.

Sometimes hello just means hello.

[KitSileya]

133. "Sometimes hello just means hello"

And many times it doesn't, and how are we to divine which kind of guy you are? Mind-reading? Or are we supposed to just suffer thru all the incidents with "three teenage guys" and "bicycle guys" because some men are nice guys, and it would hurt them if we're wary of them?

A man may be genuinely interested in family history, or he may be angling to get our last name so that he can find out where we live, what we do, etc. How are we to know which one you are when you approach us? Do you wear some kind of identifying badge that separates you from the harrassers, stalkers, assaulters and rapists of this world? While not all stalkers (etc.) are men, it is much more statistically likely, and the vicims are more statistically likely to be men, so most women would be eternally grateful if a man read the signals she gave out (they never seem to have a problem reading the body language of of other men, so it can be done) and not approach her when she's reading on the nearly deserted 10:30p.m. train.

And if they see another man harrass a woman on the train? Do something!

[LadyHawkAZ]

135. No. The writer seems to be permanently frightened

and that attracts bullies. I do think she needs more aggression than she's got. It seems like she's just lashing out from fear rather than getting aggressive out of anger,

The most common approach is to walk up to where I am sitting with body language that practically screams LEAVE ME ALONE and sit down next to me or as close to me as possible

I went through my usual routine. I told them loudly and firmly that I wanted to be left alone to read my book.

I tell them to leave me the fuck alone, stand up, and move to the front of the car near the three other people on the train

They spend the next two stops shouting at me from the back of the car, alternating between trying to sound flirtatious and making fun of me, shouting “I bet she’s reading Stephanie Meyer! I bet she’s reading Twilight or some shit! You reading Twilight or some shit?”

What all this says to me (and this is just what I'm getting from one article so it's not gospel): young, not incredibly self-confident, afraid of men and not experienced enough to know how to repel them, is bothered when they think badly of her rejection, lets her fear show in her body language. I'd bet that "body language that screams leave me alone" equals scrunched up in her seat and visibly tense.

Admittedly not much can be done about people like Bicycle Guy short of committing them, but for the rest, how much better does this sound-

The one with his arm draped over onto the back of my seat asked me—surprise— “what are you reading?” I went through my usual routine. I told them loudly and firmly that I was studying ways to amputate hands, and asked if they'd like to be a test subject. They got angry. I tell them I'll leave their girlfriends attached to their arms since I'm such a nice person, stand up, and move to the front of the car near the three other people on the train. They yelled stuff. I wasn't listening. Then they left the train.

Done it. Don't put your hands on me uninvited. I will shrivel you right up like a bucket of ice to the lap. I used her words but mine didn't yell afterward, just called me a bitch.

I think Sea's right. This girl's not yet got out of the habit of being polite, nonthreatening and concerned with how she's thought of. Hopefully she will grow out of it fairly soon.

[KitSileya]

136. I see your argument,

but I think it is getting close to victim-blaming here. The problem isn't her behavior, but the behavior of the men, and while I agree with you that bicycle guy is probably mentally ill, the teenagers are just exhibiting behavior that is condoned by society. Many persons aren't capable of showing the kind of aggression you are describing here, and there's nothing wrong with them. Note I said persons, but the majority of these persons are probably women, in large part because we are conditioned by society to behave in such a way. You can't expect someone who has had her no and her opinions disregarded a thousand times growing up to be able to flip a switch and suddenly manage it in this instance.

The main point must always be that it's what the men do that is wrong, and not tell the woman that if she only...(spoke out/was nicer/didn't wear that/didn't drink/was more observant/and on and on)

[seabeyond]

138. 12 yr old niece sat quietly, hunched, as a over 40 waiter rubbed his crotch on her pouring her water

there are many examples i can give, and most can give.

my friend that is my age, in 40's took my niece and niece friend to dinner. they came home and told me the story of this waiter rubbing on my niece when pouring her water.

what did you do, i asked.

nothing.

i exploded. i was so damn mad. why?

i do not care my friend was afraid, or uncomfortable. she is a grown woman. and what she taught my niece and her friend was to sit by quietly and hope the harassment goes away.

i asked my niece, do you think i would have sat their quietly if i had been there? do you think i would not have told the man to knock that shit off and then talk to the owners, loud enough to humiliate the man so he thinks twice doing it to another?

all my friend did, was allow this man to be comfortable doing it to another girl. taught my niece to lower her head in shame and stay quiet and live her humiliation of powerlessness.

what we do, is the women capable teach other women to speak the fuck up, and teach our daughter to not dare keep their mouth shut. that all one is doing staying quiet is allowing the harassment to continue. to empower our girls.

and

understand why our girls and women are not capable.

i am in no way shifting the blame from the pervert to my niece or friend. BUT.... i want the girls, and i want my quiet friend that takes shit to know, they can and should speak up, even though society teaches girls to sit quietly, demurely, femininely. that they too have a responsibility. and in speaking up, that power shifts from pervert to the girl.

we have to teach our daughters. and so many girls are learning they do not have to allow the abuses, regardless of what society insists from them.

let me say again, and clearly..... the creeps behavior is his own. but, i do not want my niece to ever put her head down in shame, for the creeps behavior.

[LadyHawkAZ]

165. ^What you said

was what I was trying to say. I should learn not to post in the middle of the night.

[redqueen]

46. I recently decided she has the right idea.

I was nice to someone who seemed nice, even though I was busy reading my book while out in public. I had the experience I described.

Maybe I'll just start pretending I'm hard of hearing or something. Being nice is out of the question anymore.

[Blue_Tires]

53. Ironically she wasn't sharp enough to see through "the businessman"

And he is arguably the biggest potential threat out of all the others...

More assaults come from patient predators who size up their victims and appeal to their sense of friendship, trust and security rather than expletive-spewing loonies or delinquent teens who usually just want to make a public show...

[seabeyond]

55. again, this has nothing to do with the issue. it is not about her. nt

[seabeyond]

56. and no... you should have told the man to fuck off.... lol as i said

when i heard the story before.

[raccoon]

82. can you give us a link? I missed that. nt

[redqueen]

93. Sent you a PM. nt

[SouthernLiberal]

66. Oh come on!

You're not 'condoning any of the guy's behavior', just throwing in a little gratutitous victim blaming. Yep, the guy was wrong, but STILL the woman should have behaved better. The truth is, that there are enough men crazy enough to look sane and friendly at first glance, and of course, if a woman is friendly, and makes a mistake, it's her fault, because she should have 'read' him better.

How about men take some responsibility for learning to 'read' women at all? Why is it our responsibility? Why is it not enough to say 'No'? Why do we have to accomadate a potential assailant, by learning how to say 'No' correctly?

[raccoon]

81. "she can learn to properly read guys??" TED BUNDY had the appearance of a nice, well-spoken guy

who happened to have his arm in a sling.

Should his victims have been able to "read" him and figure out he was a serial killer?

[Blue_Tires]

86. I just thought there was some happy medium

instead of instantly painting all strange men who approach them with one of three brushes:

1. Has honest, genuine intentions (too trusting)
2. Just wants sex (too cynical)
3. Is a potential stalker/rapist/murderer/etc... (too paranoid)


But overall this has been a very enlightening thread, and I have better insights into whys and hows random women give me the occasional 'universal brush-off'

[KitSileya]

34. Honestly, after the umpteenth time, it is understandable that you get so frustrated,

that it is difficult to use a "soft answer". 'No' should be a perfectly acceptable answer in itself, but it never is, when it is women uttering it to a request from a man. And when a man doesn't dare show his unhappiness when another man treats a woman in this manner, even if it is just in a frown face/long look, they tell these guys that this behavior is ok by them. I'm not necessarily saying they should risk their own safety, but the woman's safety in these cases is already impaired, and her safety would be a lot better if they would show support of her.

And FYI, it's not just mass transit. It's at a cafe table, sitting alone. It's at the library. It's walking past a construction site. It's walking along the road. It's in a grocery store. It's in the bleachers at a ball game. It's at the movies. It's at the gym. It's in our front yards. It's at work. And many more places.

And then they wonder why some women become "feminazi" and "hate all men".

[redqueen]

38. Yep, it's just about everywhere.

Fortunately there are some places with anti-harassment policies. "Out in public" is not one of those places.

[MadrasT]

36. Why should women "be nice" to people who are bothering them? n/t

[KitSileya]

42. Absolutely!

Which is why I love living in Norway. The privacy settings are completely different here than in the US. If you're on the bus/mass transit, it is customary to try to avoid sitting next to someone if it is at all possible, and if you do have to, not to talk to them. It would be weird and against the norms for anyone to randomly start talking to a stranger. It's such a relief!

A guy who starts talking to me when I am sitting on the bus reading a book, has already broken the social contract, and doesn't deserve politeness.

[hfojvt]

132. How much of a bother is it to have a little conversation?

Of course, now it is just not done because everyone is always talking on their cell phone or texting, giving them even more of a pretext for ignoring the people who are around them even while forcing them to listen to half a conversation.

But on the train back from Portland to Lincoln, I had a perfectly pleasant conversation with the woman sitting next to me, and heck, also with the man sitting next to me on the flight from Amsterdam to Minneapolis. He happened to be a math professor at the U of Mn, where I had gone to school and majored in math. Unfortunately, I learned that my old calculus professor was dead. Professor Pruitt, who I had for about four semesters.

And also with a couple of women that I approached in Portland and with a few, admittedly attractive, women who came into my bookstore, and talked pleasantly with me for over half an hour.

6 women who I never propositioned and who I will never see again, but who sorta floated through my life like an iridescent butterfly.

There's nothing quite like a random act of kindness.

[gkhouston]

139. The person being interrupted gets to decide whether it's a bother or not.

Having endured many trips where men acted as if I were part of the entertainment package they were entitled to as business travelers (complimentary beverage, snack, and blonde), I rarely engage in conversation with random strangers. When the ratio of unpleasant to pleasant encounters becomes large enough, you don't care that you might be missing a transient pleasant conversation.

[MadrasT]

144. Yes, this. I have had the same experience. n/t

[MadrasT]

141. It's not my job to entertain strangers. n/t

[KitSileya]

142. I don't know, how much bother is having a little conversation?

I don't think men can understand what it is like for women unless they truly empathise. The cartoon Brickbat links to upthread is very descriptive - one conversation might be ok, but a series of them not so much if they keep breaking the boundaries one tries to set up. The woman in the OP talks about having to fend off these conversations at least 50% of her trips, and while one of them might be benign, and even welcome, when they keep happening, despite the signals she puts out?

It's like my metaphor of poking - one poke might be funny, as you jump and we both laugh. A thousand pokes not so much. But according to you, we should let each poker have their go at poking, so that they get a chance to create, with you, the rapport of two people laughing together of the same thing.

What we're saying is that men need to learn to accept the body language women have - if they're reading a book, don't approach them about their book unless they look away from it and smile at you and by body language invite further interaction. Don't take it as your god-given right that just because you want to comment on the book she's reading that she's obliged to give you her attention. Just because a man wants to talk to/hit on a woman, he doesn't have the right to get to try that. It's not his privilege to do what he wants when it infringes on her right not to be disturbed.

[MadrasT]

143. Exactly.

Just because a man wants to talk to/hit on a woman, he doesn't have the right to get to try that.

I guess I'd say he has a right to try... what he doesn't have is a grounds to be offended when she doesn't welcome his attention.

[redqueen]

149. None at all, ***IF*** you're interested in having a conversation.

It's simply ridiculous to assume that every person one encounters will be interested in having a conversation.

[hfojvt]

162. but is it ridiculous to assume that they could, or should

treat you like a human being instead of just a waste of space and a disgusting slug who happened to crawl beside them?

Bicycle man, for all his derangement, was probably not born that way. It seems likely to me, because I know how our society works, that he has been told, again, and again, and again - you are not important, you do not matter. Well, he does matter - to himself, and is probably tired of hearing and feeling like he doesn't matter.

I would like to live in a society where people matter - even strangers.

[redqueen]

163. Women are not free therapists, nor mind readers.

We do not know if the man trying to be 'friendly' by intruding into our personal space is a nice person or a weirdo or worse.

You apparently think that by her saying "leave me alone" she was treating him as a "slug".. when in reality she was simply trying to avoid having to deal with yet another harassing male. Or worse. After enough incidents where you treat a strange man as a nice person and end up watching him masturbate while talking about your tits, having him recite his pornographic wish list, etc, you learn to stop assuming.

I don't know why you keep insisting that strange men deserve some kind of benefit of the doubt, but they do not.

Women owe strangers nothing. Being out in public does not obligate us to entertain anyone's advances. Toward conversation, flirting, or anything.

It's too bad that we live in a rape culture, and women have to be on guard all the time in public.

[4th law of robotics]

173. You've had strange men masturbate while talking about your tits in public?

I find that unlikely.

[hfojvt]

175. I don't

sometimes, being in public, even in a big city, can mean that you are the only two people at the bus stop. I remember as a kid, vaguely, because it was long ago, and far away. Trying to talk to some old guy in some public park, and him saying, apropo of nothing "my pecker sure is hard". I was like a nine, ten year old boy, so what the twisted fu%& made this old guy think I wanted to hear anything about his pecker?

[Luminous Animal]

47. My daughter is 6'1" and model beautiful...

She is "hit on" many times a day. I was very good looking myself when I was younger and experienced some of the infringement of my personal space that most women experience but I've never witnessed the almost hourly harassment that she experiences when she is out in public. She has chosen to completely ignore the personal comments, the requests that she smile, the lead in questions such as, "Do you have the time?", or, "Do you have a light?", etc. It may seem rude to ignore EVERY guy, but if she were to reply, either softly or harshly or in between, quite a bit of her time would be devoted to strangers who just want to get in her pants.

[RobinA]

74. OMG, Now You Have Done It

The request that she smile... I am hyperventilating, I need to punch something, I need a Valium, quick. That used to make me soooo angry. Up until my 30's whenever this happened I would feel bad, like I was doing something wrong. "Oh, gosh, I should be looking happier, I need to smile more." Then some jerk I worked with did it to me in my early 30's and my instant reaction was to feel bad as usual and then all of a sudden my mind went, "I don't owe you a smile m----- f-----." It was an absolute epiphany when it comes to how I felt about these encroachments. ESPECIALLY the smile thing. Do NOT tell me to smile. Now I'm middle-aged so I'm invisible and this doesn't happen. I'm kinda mad, though, that I didn't get REALLY angry while this stuff was still going on.

[seabeyond]

77. generally it happened when i was in thought, but regardless, it would always take a moment for it to

sink in that some stranger was insisting that i smile. i cant perform a smile. i can feel a smile, and when i feel, hey... i smile. but, i am not good at performing for some stranger. it was always so odd to me... generally i just stood there, looking at him with a wtf???

and they think it is so cute.

we have tried to get to the bottom of this one, and we are all about clueless some strange man insisting on a smile.

[hedgehog]

26. Will Wheaton is 40 years old?

Sorry - i got distracted there a minute.

On a more serious note - I worry about my daughters' safety all the time. Thanks for this.

[Nye Bevan]

32. Public transportation in LA sounds simply lovely.

I can see why so many people prefer to spend money on gas and brave traffic on the freeways.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

108. I Use It Every Day

And I will say most people are unfailingly nice. And I'm from a middle sized city (Orlando) so it would be easy for me to be intimidated

It does help that I treat everybody with respect and always insist on being the last on and off... And I always prided myself on getting along with everybody.

I am also a reader. I am currently reading David Maraniss' book on Barack Obama. It's a great conversation starter.


It's sad that those guys acted badly, real badly... They mess it up for nice people...

[coalition_unwilling]

33. K&R. Bookmarking for later. - n/t

[Bluenorthwest]

35. Rec'd for the content, and for Wheaton, who has a long history of being a better man than most.

And cuter for that matter. I even like the beard....and I usually don't.

[MadrasT]

39. I can't tell you how many "nice guys" I hear complaining

About how cold and nasty women are to them out in public.

"Why are they so mean? I was just being nice!!!"

Every one of them needs to read the article linked in this OP.

Sadly, most of them still won't get it.

[JHB]

48. I was in an encounter like that...

Last edited Wed Sep 5, 2012, 02:45 PM - Edit history (1)

About 20 years ago, in NYC, just outside the SOHO neighborhood. I was walking to work, early enough that there's little foot traffic. After turning a corner, a little ahead of me going in the same direction was a very big guy pacing a woman who was very deliberately keeping moving and not looking at him. He was "talking" to her with a litany that was a little less directly threatening than the guy in the story, but not by much, and was equally unconstrained by any standard of 'normal' behavior.

I really didn't know what to do. I wasn't quite up to volunteering to have the shit beat out of me (or worse, if he had a knife or gun on him) first thing in the morning by actively confronting him, so I stepped up my pace and put myself right alongside, so that it was very obvious there was someone else right there. And he eye'd me and kept on talking.

So it went on like this for a few more minutes until she got to where she was going and got in her door. He stalked off, and, well, I went to work.

[redqueen]

51. It is truly not all that uncommon.

Most times it's less intensely threatening, misogynists would say 'good natured', even. It is always threatening, no matter if they do it with a smile or not. I'm sure she was glad you were there.

[seabeyond]

61. it is an interesting dilemma it puts all in. i agree,

i would not expect or want a man minding his own business to have to stop life to fight... or as you say, worse. sometimes the thinking is, this is so normal that he will eventually leave and she can get on with life. BUT... i like the solution you came up with.

[MineralMan]

67. I'm trying to figure out what my reaction would have been,

if I had been another passenger. If he was literally screaming at her, I would almost certainly have stepped in, because he was clearly unbalanced and likely to cause harm. If possible, I would have enlisted the help of another passenger, but I believe I would have stepped in and firmly told the assailant to move to some other seat and leave the woman alone. I would certainly be hoping that wouldn't result in a violent reaction toward me, but I would be prepared for that. Sometimes, you simply have to step up.

I've never encountered that exact situation, though, with a man screaming at a woman who doesn't know him. I've encountered men making unwanted advances and have stepped up to ask if the man was bothering the woman. That usually sufficed to move the man elsewhere. Where it didn't, it generally diverted the man and cause him to place his attention on me, giving the woman a chance to leave the situation. Since I'm a fairly large, rather imposing sort of man, full beard and all, with the ability to produce a cold, determined look of resolve, such a situation has never ended in any physical altercation.

But, I've never encountered the exact situation that was described. I think I know that I would have intervened. I would hope that the intervention would result in the woman being accosted leaving that car or getting off at the next stop. It could turn into something more than that, if the man was unbalanced enough. I would hope not, but it might.

[dawg]

70. I'm sure I would have put myself between him and her.

It would have been scary, but probably not as scary as it was for her.

[seabeyond]

71. i like listening to you men

how you interpret this, thank you, it is interesting.

you made me think with your post... i probably would have gotten involved, too. even as a female, i can never not step in with shit like this. anyway, it is as someone said, MM maybe, the more involved, the more the bully backs down. doesnt have to be gender specific.... group is group.

[LanternWaste]

73. I wish I knew what the solution was. Heck, I wish I knew what I'd do in that position... but I don't

I wish I knew what the solution was. Heck, I wish I knew what I'd do in that position... but I don't.

It's difficult to empathize too-- I realize that a culture dominated by males for the vast majority of its history has forced women collectively to make a million little choices per day in regards to safety that I as a male simply never think about-- decisions that would never enter my mind.

That being said, discussing the issue and reading about the issue over the past years (especially on DU-- especially you and Seabeyond) has given me, I think, a bit more insight than I might have had years past. And these discussion and readings have certainly allowed me perspectives I've never had before.

Great... lot's of help, right? Lots of perspectives, no solutions (and sober bemusement at the same cast of characters who post in your threads attempting to minimize the situation by inflating another, different situation)

[redqueen]

75. Raising awareness is the solutuon.

As more people realize how wrong this behavior is, that it's not harmless or nice or excusable, it becomes less socially acceptable. As it becomes less socially acceptable, it happens less and to less severe degrees.

Just as racist abuse was once commonplace and socially acceptable but is now the sole province of social outcasts, so will such sexist abuse fade, as time passes. That's the goal, anyway.

[4th law of robotics]

76. I do take issue with this bit:

They exit the train at the next stop, and I’m relieved. The train is going out of service at the next station, so we all exit to board a new train to Los Angeles. As we board, the business man steps aside to let me go through the door first and asks me if those guys were bothering me. I say yes, that it happens all the time, and he tells he’ll beat them up for me if they come back. He is a nice person who talks to me like I’m a human being instead of a walking pair of tits, and I make a mental note: This is how a real man talks to a woman on a train.

So she, as a woman, get's to define what it means to be a "real man" (imagine a guy telling a woman what it is to be a real woman) and that means he is obligated to inflict violence on others (facing physical harm, incarceration, possibly death) on others for her benefit.

This is based on the twin assumptions that men are disposable (if he get's killed or hurt defending her, meh) and women are unable to live their own lives without a male guardian.

[LadyHawkAZ]

79. Most men I know won't go up against a group of guys solo either

they prefer to have at least one other guy backing them up. I doubt they view it as their buddy being disposable or that they can't live without a guardian. When you're up against a threatening group of people, there's safety in numbers. That's common sense. I can understand the objection to the "real man" comment but I think the rest is a bit of a reach.

[4th law of robotics]

80. Except she didn't say that was what a good person should do

she clearly chose the word "man".

She didn't want a woman defending her. Either because she believes women are weak or that they are too precious to risk in a fight.

Either way when she needed a disposable person to fight her battles for her and assume all the risks that entails (fighting multiple crazies isn't fun) she thought of a man. Not too many ways to spin that.

Hurray equality.

[LadyHawkAZ]

84. Yes, the word was carefully chosen to reflect the fact that

the persons (group) that were harassing her were also male, and she was drawing a distinction between the two types in a specific context. Kinda like how the photo of Ann Coulter and the dog that caused so much controversy awhile back would be a different context from last night's troll asking why liberal women were such dogs. Think context. It's important.

[Scout]

83. way to totally misinterpret what you quoted.

but not surprising.

[4th law of robotics]

94. I didn't misinterpret at all

she defined what it was to be a real man.

That definition included putting men between violence and women. He wasn't a "real man" for not harassing her. He was became a real man in her eyes when he offered to inflict violence on others on her behalf.

/yes I know this story is likely made up. But the fact that she chose to include that bit says all you need to know about what she considers appropriate male behavior.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

91. Funny enough....

....hardline second wave feminist cynicism states business man is probably "white knighting" to get her to swoon and give him her phone number and he's a sexist to boot for letting her get on the train first. She's still controlled hook line and sinker by the patriarchy.

[4th law of robotics]

95. Besides having separate trains

I'm not sure what the appropriate action is.

Perhaps completely ignoring her?

[redqueen]

98. That was one solution used in Japan.

Of course then, men complained about the unfairness of women having their own cars.

Which no one finds surprising at all I'm sure.

[4th law of robotics]

112. Given the crowding there

I would say any interruption in the way public transit functions wouldn't be well received.

Seeing 100 people crammed in to a car meant for 50 while the women's car isn't entirely full would be irritating for some (I'm assuming as is usual in these gender segregation cases women are free to use either women's only or the mixed gender car should theirs get too crowded).

[hifiguy]

117. Funny, when the ultra--Orthodox Jews in NYC want to put

women at the back of the bus or on separate sides of the street the pitching of shitfits (entirely justified, IMO) is as predictable as the sun rising in the east. Now exactly how is what the ultra-Orthodox doing so very different?

[4th law of robotics]

119. I've noticed a few instances when the religious right and the far left

overlap.

Porn being one of them. And treating sexual desire as a disease to be treated. Oh and insisting men and women must be segregated for their mutual safety.

That's just a few. I'm sure there are more.

[MicaelS]

157. I'm speaking as an American man...

Who has never been to Japan, but likes aspects of Japanese culture. So I don't hate Japan.

From what I have read, and heard from friends who have visited Japan, some Japanese men have a real problem keeping their hands to themselves. Men groping women in the crowded subway cars is a real problem, and that is why the women's only cars were introduced.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women-only_passenger_car

Groping in crowded commuter trains has been a problem in Japan; according to a survey conducted by Tokyo Metropolitan Police and East Japan Railway Company, two-thirds of female passengers in their twenties and thirties reported that they had been groped on trains, and the majority had been victimized frequently. Authorities have been unable to control groping activities, as trains are too crowded to identify the perpetrators, courts have traditionally been lenient, and victims are too often ashamed to come forward. The police and railway companies responded with poster campaigns to raise awareness and tougher sentences, but have been unable to reverse the trend. In 2004, the Tokyo police reported a threefold increase in reported cases of groping on public transportation over eight years.

Women-only cars have received positive reaction from some men and some women. Women cited safety from gropers, as well as not having to tolerate various smells. Men cited not having to worry about false accusation of being a groper.

However, passengers complained about further overcrowding in mixed cars, and feared that women who ride mixed cars would be putting themselves at more risk than before.

http://www.odditycentral.com/pics/japans-anti-groping-women-only-train-cars.html

It’s a known fact that Tokyo is overcrowded and that is most obvious during rush hour, when professional pushers shove people into train cars so the doors can close properly. Unfortunately this is the kind of environment where perverts thrive. Usually most people mind their own business, reading a magazine, checking their email or talking on the phone, but some men prefer to talk dirty to the women next to them and groping them. This kind of molestation or “chikan” as the Japanese call it, happens every day in Japanese major cities, and lost of women choose to be quiet and bear it, because of the way male-dominated Japanese society functions. But ever since Japanese railway stations introduced the women-only train cars, they don’t have to, anymore.

With groping being so popular, the first female-only cars were apparently first introduced in 1912 on the present Chuo Mine Line to prevent men from Looking at the beautiful faces of young female students, but it was discontinued in 1973. Modern-day women-only train cars were introduced in December 2000 in response to complaints about drunk men groping women during the “bonekai”party season. It proved effective to some extent and other companies followed the example introducing their own special cars. Some operate throughout the day, some just during rush hour and are generally found on rapid service trains with longer distance between stops. Unfortunately, not all women fit in the crowded train car during busy intervals, and some have to ride in the normal ones, where the threat of groping still looms. Apparently the best way to handle a groping situation is to grab the pervert’s wrist, jerk his hand and scream “chikan” since this kind of embarrassment tactic is very effective in Japanese society. However, gropers know most Japanese women are too ashamed to react in public. Small children, senior citizens and men with disabilities are the only ones allowed on the women-only cars.

That, and the fact some middle aged Japanese men like to read manga like The Rapeman in public, probably does not help to inspire confidence in Japanese men.

[redqueen]

164. Thank you so much for caring. nt

[LadyHawkAZ]

120. A man and a woman are on a train

The woman is holding a book and reading.

The man says hi to the woman. Nothing wrong so far.

If the woman is interested in talking to him, she will put the book down and talk.

If she ignores the greeting and keeps reading, or mumbles a hi and keeps reading, she's not interested in talking. From this point forward, if he's continuing to engage in conversation, he'd better be asking which station will get him to the 33 bus, because she doesn't want to chat.

At this point, yes, he should be ignoring her. That's pretty basic.

If he tries to go sit by her and keeps trying to get her to talk, especially if this blocks her in against a wall, he's moved into asshole territory. If this were me, I'd be in his face at that point telling him so.

I'm not sure exactly what your objection to that is? It seems like you're arguing this one just to argue.

[4th law of robotics]

121. I was more referring

to the people who would be equally upset by the white-knighting male in this scenario.

Harass her = obviously wrong. No question.

Stand up for her = definitely wrong to some people.

Which leaves ignoring the situation which is . . you guessed it: obviously wrong.

[LadyHawkAZ]

122. Ah

I misread then.

[gkhouston]

124. Phrasing it a little differently: two men are on a train.

How often do you see a man persist in trying to have a conversation with another man who's clearly not interested in talking?

[LadyHawkAZ]

126. Often, unfortunately

there's a free fare zone downtown, and during hot or freezing weather a lot of drunks and addicts ride around the free zone to get out of the weather. They will talk to whoever's sitting nearby. Sometimes even when no one is sitting nearby.

And then there's the religious folks. This is Salt Lake City. It's just as difficult to get rid of a missionary as it is a drunk. No, I'm not exaggerating. If you're too polite to shut them down, they don't stop.

[opiate69]

127. Quite often actually...

Not on the train since I don`t ride one, but anybody who has been to a bar or tavern has at some point run into "that guy"...

[4th law of robotics]

160. I've seen that before, quite a bit

happened to me too.

If you're reading a book you'll get people who are interested in what you're reading (or listening to).

If you're sitting there quietly you'll get drunk or high or crazy or just obnoxious people harassing you for no reason.

Yeah, that's one of those things that can make being in public suck. You (and the author) assume it is limited to women. But perhaps that's because you both spend too much time telling us what the world is like and too little time listening.

[gkhouston]

168. I would say that you're the one not listening.

The people who bother both sexes are "drunk or high or crazy or just obnoxious". Women also get bothered by people who don't behave that way towards men, and expected to endure it politely. Fuck that noise.

[4th law of robotics]

170. Except that if you were paying attention

you'd see this kind of harassment isn't limited to women.

[redqueen]

97. "White knight" in that context is an MRA term. nt

[opiate69]

99. lol

[redqueen]

101. There is one listing in the geek feminism wiki which I've never seen used that way in context.

Almost every other result is as I said.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&gl=US&ie=UTF-8&source=android-browser&q=white+knight+feminist
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&gl=US&ie=UTF-8&source=android-browser&q=white+knighting

[opiate69]

103. might want to expand your reading list a bit...

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_knight#section_1

[redqueen]

104. Context helps.

I get that it doesn't serve your argument, but it doesn't disappear or no longer matter simply because you'd rather ignore it.

[opiate69]

106. right....

context, as in, "some MRA may have once used this very well established phrase once, so now whenever anyone uses it against me, it`s an MRA phrase, history be damned!"

[redqueen]

107. LMAO

@ "some MRA" (singular)
@ "once"
@ "history be damned"



You clearly haven't read much at all about these issues...

[opiate69]

109. Well...

Not from the likes of the criminally insane (*cough*Solanis), nor the flat-out batshit insane (*ahem* Dworkin), nor from the pseudo-intellectual misandrists (twisty), nor from the religiously insane (Reisman, et al). I tend to be a little more discriminating in my educational reading. YMMV.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

100. Oh, I'm sorry....

He's being a Nice Guy™

I get confused trying to keep such pseudo-bullshit straight.

[hifiguy]

115. Reading this thread makes me glad I am Asperger's.

I don't talk to anybody in public unless I need directions or it is someone in a store where I am conducting business. So I guess that makes me one of those "quietly creepy" types when I am sitting there on the bus every day with my nose in my book just because I am male. Jeezus Christ on a fucking pogo stick.

I realized thirty-plus years ago that I could never even attempt to have any kind of relationship and it's because of utterly incomprehensible crap like this.

[Blue_Tires]

140. I've been diagnosed with it, too

I'm just tired of sleeping alone, and hoping this thread can educate me on I can do to approach women without being seen as Ted Bundy...

[dawg]

145. I suck at this too, but here's my advice:

Make eye contact with her.
Smile.
(and for heaven's sake, don't maintain the eye contact for more than a second)

Chances are, even if you're Brad Pitt, she will go about her business and ignore you. Don't be offended. Maybe she has a boyfriend. Maybe she's married. Maybe she thinks you're cute but doesn't feel like talking to anyone today. The reason doesn't matter. She isn't interested.

On the other hand, she might decide to start a conversation with you. You "told" her you were interested in her. Most women will pick up on that. After that, the ball's in her court.

[redqueen]

148. Doesn't sound like you suck at this to me.

Sounds like great advice for anyone.

Smile, maybe say hello. If the other person is receptive then great. If they don't demonstrate interest in further interaction, then oh well, life goes on.

[dawg]

150. Thanks.

The part I suck at is the next step. The woman responds and starts a conversation. She shows signs of being interested in me. She gets into my personal space and puts her hand on my arm or shoulder. She asks for my email address ...

and I go home wondering if she was really interested in me or just being nice.

Part of that, though, is just me not being ready to move on with my life yet.

[redqueen]

152. Yeah, that hesitance probably shows...

even if you don't verbalize it.

Maybe just look at these interactions as practice for when you're ready.

[seabeyond]

151. "Make eye contact with her. Smile." i was going to suggest this...

further, as a women with massive years living this, and very social in public chatting with everyone..... there are two ways. women feel and know it. men, not so much, i do not think. and if they are aware, and start recognizing in self, that will make a huge difference.

the brain.

whether men have placed the women in the part of the brain that sees a human, a mother, sister, friend, coworker.

or whether the man has placed the women in the part of brain as "tool". to be used.

we live this. and by a certain age, we know this, and literally feel this.

thru out my day when i go out and about i chat with so many strange men, about all kinds of things. (i am an isolationist, lol, but boys think it is a hoot how social i am when i go out, talking to all). there is a feel and a know when a man is not sincere, does not see me as a person. and when the interaction is human to human. i will stare down the other man until HE looks away. i will interact with any man, (child, woman, older person) when i am a person.

that is the opening.

[dawg]

153. I know lots of people who seem to treat the opposite sex as "things" not people.

Certainly, the most common form of this is men who treat women as sex objects - just there for their entertainment and/or gratification.

But there are nicer men than that who still treat women as the "other". And there are nice women who treat men as the "other" as well.

I think this phenomenon is one of the great challenges of our society. Unless we can get to the point where we all just see each other as individuals, we will always have problems relating to each other.

[MadrasT]

154. This is so true.

I think this phenomenon is one of the great challenges of our society. Unless we can get to the point where we all just see each other as individuals, we will always have problems relating to each other.

We "otherize" people all over the place, and it goes way beyond gender.

~ Political party

~ Religion

~ Nationality

~ Race

~ Sexual orientation

It's awful.

I try really hard to see the person first, and leave all that categorization out of it.

[4th law of robotics]

155. Making eye contact and smiling without saying anything

could very easily be misconstrued as something hostile.

"Why is he smiling and staring at me but not saying anything?"

So depending on who this is aimed at you could have just created a very awkward situation.

One that get's a write up on some blog about the creepy smiling Schrodingers-rapist on the train.

women feel and know it. men, not so much, i do not think. and if they are aware, and start recognizing in self, that will make a huge difference.

One thing I really enjoy is having women tell me how men think and why we're deficient and wrong.

[seabeyond]

156. i was telling you how i, as a woman think and feel. and.... when make eye contact and smile,

and the person is not interested and turns away, or looks away, or does not smile back..... get on with life.

ya, a tough one.

[4th law of robotics]

158. You're speaking only for yourself but giving advice

on behalf of all women.

What is sweet and romantic to one woman is creepy and frightening to another.

Some guy you've rejected holding up a boombox outside your window: creepy or romantic? Answer: depends, is it John Cusack or someone else?

[LadyHawkAZ]

174. the one bit of advice I would add to dawg's

would be that trains and buses (the subject of the thread) aren't the best place to test it. Pick a location where people go to socialize, not one where they're on the way home from work and are cranky. You may get better results with women who are relaxed and sociable.

[redqueen]

147. Who used the term "quietly creepy"? nt

[Odin2005]

161. This Aspie keeps quiet because I'm terrified of looking like a creepy "nice guy".

The ridiculousness in this thread is only going to reinforce that. Ugh, it's like how teachers can't give students hugs anymore because they might be child molesters. Now every socially awkward man who tries to strike up a conversation is a potential rapist.

[4th law of robotics]

110. Is there anything that isn't a potential MRA code-word?

[Upton]

111. Apparently not..

if you don't bow to the dictates of the radfems..you must be MRA..

[4th law of robotics]

113. Rad-fem is an MRA code-word

even when using it to refer to people who self-describe as rad-fems.

[Upton]

128. No doubt..

I see the term "white knight" has now been proclaimed MRA as well...

The absurdity of some of these claims weakens whatever case they're trying to make....which is just fine with me. Let them dig their own graves.

[opiate69]

129. BUZZZ!!!!

"Dig their own graves" is now officially an MRA term. Good goin`, Upton!

[hifiguy]

118. For some, no there is not. nt

[gkhouston]

123. Yes, she gets to define her opinion of what a "real man" is. I don't see her

trying to impose her definition on others, and her personal definition was not connected to the man's expressed willingness to inflict violence in her behalf. Her definition was "a nice person who talks to me like I'm a human being instead of a walking pair of tits".

[4th law of robotics]

159. If I were to define a "real woman"

in terms of antiquated stereotypes (a man's job is to defend a woman in peril, a woman's job is to swoon and get back to the kitchen!) I would be called out on it. No one would accept that it was merely my definition and since I couldn't force it on anyone that's ok.

Her definition was "a nice person who talks to me like I'm a human being instead of a walking pair of tits".

Except he wasn't just talking to her. He was offering to physically assault another male on her behalf to win her approval. Notice the promise of violence explicitly stated in that paragraph?

[gkhouston]

167. Again, you assume that the promise of violence falls under the umbrella of "nice person

who talks to me like I'm a human being" and there's no textual evidence that she considered that a criterion.

[4th law of robotics]

169. The full quote:

They exit the train at the next stop, and I’m relieved. The train is going out of service at the next station, so we all exit to board a new train to Los Angeles. As we board, the business man steps aside to let me go through the door first and asks me if those guys were bothering me. I say yes, that it happens all the time, and he tells he’ll beat them up for me if they come back. He is a nice person who talks to me like I’m a human being instead of a walking pair of tits, and I make a mental note: This is how a real man talks to a woman on a train.

Did she or did she not choose to include him promising violence on her behalf before labeling him a "real man"?

[gkhouston]

171. You think she did. I think she didn't. If she'd said, "He is a nice person who offered to beat up

people for me and talks to me like I'm a human being instead of a walking pair of tits", then I'd agree with you, but the only referent for "nice person" is "talks to me like I'm a human being".

[nadine_mn]

102. My husband relayed a story to me about witnessing a woman getting hit on at a train stop

My husband was waiting for the light rail and while waiting, a young woman was in an argument with her boyfriend on her cell phone. He could hear every part of her conversation...and so could 2 young men who were also waiting. As she talked (yelled and cried) on the phone, the 2 men kept looking over at her and nudging each other. When she got off the phone, she was visibly upset... and the 2 young men instantly asked her for her number, wanted to know what she was doing that night etc. She yelled at them... "I just found out I am pregnant and broke up with my baby's daddy, what would I want with you?" And she walked off. They yelled some comments at her as she left, of course...how dare she reject random men trying to pick her up.

I totally understand the feeling by women to take an aggressive stance...after awhile you get tired of being nice.

[DonRedwood]

105. wHil wHeaton?

[hifiguy]

116. Cool wHip.

[redqueen]

172. Not sure why some men are seeing this as some kind of contest. It isn't.

Many, many women are subjected to *sexual* street harassment on a far too regular basis.

These aren't invitations to try to 'prove' anything about how men get asked about books, or whose wife says this never happened to her. These are the stories of women who are tired of having to deal with day to day life as if we were walking around in a meat-market type nightclub, despite being on trains, in stores, on sidewalks, in elevators, at school, etc

The types of responses which minimize, dismiss, ridicule, etc. only serve to show how far we have to go before women are treated like people, and only harassed for non-sexual reasons most of the time, and only sexually harassed occasionally if at all, just like men.

[FurioG]

176. That is mighty

Alan Alda of you.