It's actually very difficult for the poorest Americans to enlist in the military

[Recursion]

I understand the rhetorical effect people are going for, but it's just not the case that the poorest Americans fight our wars. Between the requirement for a high school diploma and the requirement for a clean criminal record most of the poorest 20% of the country are locked out.

[OnDoutside]

1. That's surprising.

[Recursion]

3. The military has recognized it as a problem for about 20 years now

The mention it in all their recruiting & retention reviews.

[OnDoutside]

21. I remember seeing a documentary about the underhand tactics done to get people to enlist, so that's

why i found it surprising. No probs.

[braddy]

2. Yeah, showing up for school as a kid and not being a criminal are required.

[cwydro]

24. And being in halfway decent physical shape.

I’ve read they’re having real difficulties finding recruits who are. Sad.

[Hekate]

49. Whole categories of young black and brown men get stopped by cops for behavior that no white...

...would ever be found liable for. Like driving. Walking around the suburbs. Walking in the city. Driving a "good" car. Hanging out in a public park. Having a birthday party or bbq in a public park. Hanging out in front of your own house.

You know the drill by now if you are a DUer. It is really easy to get a record started -- if you are black or brown.

As for schools: we've known for generations in this country that schools in poor neighborhoods are notoriously wretched, with a high dropout rate. Many kids are hungry -- they now call it "food insecurity," Jesus what a euphemism. Many kids are holding down a job to help out their families with rent and groceries. Homelessness among families is rising.

It is easy to miss classes when your family is that poor.

Being in good physical condition depends on good nutrition and the opportunity to exercise -- see above.

Sure, the Army wants better cannon-fodder. But as this country slides backward, it might be instructive to look at what the Draft had to deal with at the end of the Great Depression and before there was a middle class after WWII.

Health: so many young men were given a 4-F for nutritional diseases (ricketts, blindness, rotten teeth, heart disease) alone that the free school lunch program got its start. (This continued in my generation (in my home state, I don't know about elsewhere) in a modified form: our school lunches cost 25 cents, and were 1/3 of a growing kid's daily needs. Even my penny pinching mother could not brown-bag a lunch cheaper than that, altho I still knew kids who went without.) Think about that: school nutrition programs for healthy future soldiers, whatever you may think of that motive.

Literacy/education: during WWII the Army had education programs for recruits that got down to the absolute basics of personal hygiene and I don't know what-all. I'm sure the old training manuals are online for your edification; everything else is.

What I'm saying is, the Army and other military branches may have been relying on a robust miiddle class and the spillover of that into the rest of society to produce the kind of recruits they wanted -- and thanks to GOP policies for the last 2 generations, that no longer exists. If I am right, they are going to have to return to an earlier model for recruitment and training.

[DBoon]

51. You are also talking about an era when government public health measures weren't scorned

I would bet if something like a free lunch program or basic hygiene training were proposed now, they would have a difficult time passing.

Not only do many not meet the basic health standards for military enlistment, we as a society are less willing to spend money to fix that problem.

[maxsolomon]

4. Not saying you're wrong, but

Do you have any sources for your contentions that

1. >50% of the poorest 20% of Americans don't have a high school diploma
and
2. >50% of the poorest 20% of Americans have a criminal record?

Or is it cumulative? Those without a HS diploma + those with a criminal record = >50% of poor Americans?

[paleotn]

17. Exactly. My questions for the op as well

Seems at this time we’ve yet to get answers.

[Hortensis]

56. No kidding. Poverty does not equate to complete degradation.

That it does is a deep-seated RW notion, versions extremely ungenerous to the point of irrationality inculcated by anti-tax leaders over the past 40 years.

Generally speaking, the idea is that worldly success tends to come to those who are deserving because they earn it, and lack of it is earned by those who are undeserving, the more so the more so. It's bad for government to help "undeserving" people and prop up them with taxpayer money (always necessary because they're undeserving and won't help themselves) because it degrades society by encouraging shiftless people to remain shiftless instead of being forced to work.

Pockets of deep-seated poverty exist because the people won't help themselves, not because they can't leave their sick grandma and dying town to find jobs elsewhere, or because their only skill is now obsolete and they're too poor to pay for training, but at least they own the house no one will buy in a dead town. Oh, and of course minorities are not relatively poor because for generations they've been underpaid and even full-time work has not enabled accumulation of wealth in families, but because they're lazy or some other undeserving reasons.

That's not it. And this version has all really poor people not able to even go into the military because they're all too lazy to get to the recruitment center, all didn't finish school, or all in jail or some combination.

[LiberalFighter]

5. I would agree.

I checked it out at GoArmy with their Pre-Qualify.

If you have been convicted of a felony or domestic abuse. NO
If you do not have a high school diploma or GED. NO
If you have any tattoos that are offensive, visible above the neckline or below the wrist line. NO

From another source it indicates that if you have more than two dependents you won't be considered.

The Air Force has an Aptitude Test and Physical and Mental Screening.

Business Insider had this statement.
But today, more than two-thirds of America’s young people wouldn’t qualify for military service because of physical, behavioral, or educational problems.

That is a lot of people not qualifying.

[Recursion]

6. The two biggest blockers of enlistments are obesity and asthma

Guess what two ailments strike poorer Americans at a much greater rate than the rest of the country?

The dependents limit isn't legally supposed to be a thing but it's an open secret that recruiters are discouraged from signing up people with too many dependents.

[msongs]

22. obesity does not "strike" anybody, its a behavioral thing nt

[Mosby]

46. Sort of, there are environmental and genetic aspects...

That greatly contribute to obesity.

[hibbing]

60. And an economic component

Much easier to get 2,000 calories eating cheap junk than eating more healthy.


Peace

[hunter]

52. It's a poverty thing as well.

Junk food and soda is cheap and easy.

It's easy for a parent working two jobs to stop for fast food on the way home.

You can't serve healthy meals on a very limited budget unless you know how.

[Hekate]

58. Obesity is strongly correlated with living in a "food desert" where junk food is cheap and available

...while fresh wholesome food is a couple of bus transfers away.

So sure, it's a behavioral thing.

The US has exchanged the nutritional diseases of ricketts, pellagra, rotten teeth and the like for the nutritional diseases of obesity, early heart disease, diabetes, and the like. Lead poisoning has simply transferred from the olden days to modern times.

[dewsgirl]

26. My son is in the Air Force and they are very strict about all

of this, down to when he was accepted and waiting for his orders for boot camp, if he would have showed up with a sunburn at all, he would have been disqualified. We live in Florida, do you have any idea how many tips there are online for what to do about a sunburn?

[LakeArenal]

7. Well, there is no way in hell rich kids are going to join.

My grandfather from Denmark received a stipend his whole life from Denmark.
A deal made by a rich guy to my grandfather for doing his kid’s military service.

[Recursion]

8. They seem to serve at a higher rate than anyone else

At least as of 2016 it's a direct correlation: the richer you are the more likely you are to serve in the military.

[LakeArenal]

9. As officers I suppose.

[Recursion]

12. The officer corps does impact that percentage, yes (nt)

[backscatter712]

47. Rich families have their kids sent to the academies to become officers.

Why else do you think it literally takes a recommendation from a Congressman to get accepted?

Gotta get that war cred, but you do it the way that keeps you from actually having to go to war. That and you get perks like flying fighters or commanding a warship if you are willing to take risks.

[TheRealNorth]

10. Reagan and the Republicans knew what they were doing when they changed the rules

Last thing you want to do after sticking it to the poor is train them how to properly fight.

[Recursion]

11. Bingo

Rome was the same way. You only let the second-highest rung on the ladder fight.

[Aristus]

19. During the Republic, yes.

It was the age-old maxim that only the rich have anything worth fighting for.

Gaius Marius proved them wrong by recruiting soldiers from the lowest economic rung, the capite censi, or "head count"; Romans who were counted as citizens on the census rolls, but had no property of any kind.

He recruited them, equipped them with surplus weapons and armor left behind due to the massive casualties of Rome's endless wars for territorial expansion, and trained them to become an astonishingly effective military force. He also paid them a regular wage. Previously, Rome's civilian militiamen could expect spoils of war after victory, but were not expected to be paid, since they were fighting for Rome.

The other generals (Senators from Rome's highest class) looked down on these 'pauper soldiers' until they started winning. Then they too started recruiting head count soldiers.

Since the soldiers looked to their generals for their livelihood, care, and retirement, they transferred their loyalty to them as well, rather than to Rome.

Ambitious generals with loyal armies at their backs contending for absolute power, is what caused the Republic to crumble.

[dhol82]

28. One of the reasons why I worry about trump trying to establish his own Praetorian Guard.

Doubt it can happen here and now, but......

[Aristus]

29. I don't think it's very likely.

Anti-Trump America would have allies all around the world.

[dhol82]

36. One hopes.

[hack89]

44. The drastic down sizing of the military is the real driver

You have to go back to before WWII tofind a smaller military. Fewer soldiers and a larger population means they can be more selective.

[Dan]

13. Hahahahaha, yeah let there be war

With real numbers dying, and you will see how quick the Rich no longer desire to have a military record; and how quick the middle class with options find other non-military opportunities; and how quick (even quicker) the military provides opportunities for the non-qualified poor to die for the Country. Hahaha, just like during Vietnam, go to jail or go to war - defendants choice! And of course the mistakes the military recruiters will make to ensure that they meet their quotas.

Yep, when dying becomes a real option - the standards definitely are lowered to allow the non-qualified their opportunities to die.

[Recursion]

14. That didn't really happen during Iraq though

They slightly loosened the diploma/GED requirement, but that was about it.

[Dan]

20. Iraq

Was not Vietnam type of war (sorry police action). And Iraq is not Iran.

[Blue_true]

30. Iraq was not Vietnam.

The Iraq death rate is more than 10 times lower. A lot of dying makes the news, so kids that have options have second thoughts about the military.

You pointed out that the enlistment standards were loosened during the Iraq war, my guess is that if we had been suffering Vietnam level losses, those standards would have been abandoned and anyone that could hold a gun would have been let in.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

57. "Go to war or go to jail" wasn't a plan to get recruits, ...

... it was seen as an opportunity for people doing minor crime to turn it around. It wasn't a bad idea. I know one person who did this, and they now have great VA health care (along with the honorable discharge and the G.I. bill).

[Dan]

61. I was in the service during Vietnam

And there were a number of people given the jail/military option - we can agree to disagree about the level of crimes where people were given options.

[paleotn]

15. So you're saying poor people are more likely to have

criminal records? Maybe, but certainly not at a rate to exclude most of them from military service. And that HS diploma thing. It is free in much of the US.

[Recursion]

16. I mean, it's *free* in the entire US, that isn't the problem

The problem is that poor people face much greater challenges actually obtaining that diploma or equivalency, and one result of that is that poor people enlist in the military less frequently than richer Americans do.

See above, incidentally: overweight and asthma are huge players here too.

[paleotn]

18. Without solid data

I ain’t buying it. The rich have better alternatives.

[ck4829]

55. If that is the case, it's because our govt criminalizes the things poor people do to survive

[11 Bravo]

23. My military experience was confined to the early 70's.

That was not the case back then.

[Blue_true]

32. Because a large number of soldiers were dying in the late sixties, early 70s.

The death toll in Iraq and Afghanistan combined is a little more than one tenth that of Vietnam. Once big numbers of soldiers start dying, the rich and a lot of middle class find other options to military service.

[Jose Garcia]

25. Do you have any facts to back up this assertion?

[Kaleva]

27. Here is some info

"By that measure, in 2014 those who had no high school diploma comprise a far greater share of the population in poverty than their share of the general population and those with a high school diploma and no college comprise are overrepresented to a lesser degree."

https://poverty.ucdavis.edu/faq/how-does-level-education-relate-poverty

"Comparisons of state-level education data and crime and incarceration rates have consistently supported the fact that states that have focused the most on education (in general, financial support) tend to have lower rates of violent crime and incarceration. Although education can never be viewed as a “cure all” or magic bullet that will guarantee reductions in criminal activity or crime rates, research suggests that increased investments in quality education can have a positive public safety benefit."

http://criminal-justice.iresearchnet.com/crime/education-and-crime/4/

"Children who come from homes in poverty are more likely to be expelled from school or to have a police record than a child who makes the same choices as the poor child, but has more overall wealth."

https://vittana.org/how-poverty-influences-crime-rates

[Jose Garcia]

45. None of those links back up the assertion that MOST poor people are

ineligible to serve in the military.

[Kaleva]

48. But i think we can both argree that it's harder for a poor person to join.

Given the facts that a poor person is more likely not to have a high school diploma and more likely to have a criminal record then those applicants from the middle and upper classes.

[braddy]

31. Who's Joining the Military: Myth vs Fact

https://www.military.com/join-armed-forces/whos-joining-military-myth-vs-fact.html

[Kaleva]

34. "Fact: Military recruits mirror the US population and are solidly middle class."

"A recent report shows that more recruits come from middle income families, with far fewer drawn from poorer families. Youth from upper income families are represented at almost exactly their fair share."

https://www.military.com/join-armed-forces/whos-joining-military-myth-vs-fact.html

[Recursion]

38. The standing military force is poorer and more nonwhite than the population

but, each incoming recruit and candidate class underrepresents minorities and the poor. The difference is poorer nonwhite people are more likely to stay in, and richer whiter people are more likely to do one tour and out.

[Kaleva]

41. White people don't get paid more in the military.

The pay scale is the same. A white person with 10 years of service and at a certain pay grade will be paid the same as a Hispanic with the same number of years in and at the same pay grade. When one factors in the benefits, a person in the military is not exactly poor anymore, regardless of race.

Distribution of active-duty enlisted women and men in the U.S. Military in 2017, by race and ethnicity

[Recursion]

43. Whereas white people do get paid more than nonwhites in the private sector

That's the whole point

[Tiggeroshii]

35. +10,000

[keithbvadu2]

37. Tom DeLay and Dan Quayle military service

Tom DeLay and Dan Quayle military service

He and Quayle, DeLay explained to the assembled media in New Orleans, were victims of an unusual phenomenon back in the days of the undeclared Southeast Asian war. So many minority youths had volunteered for the well-paying military positions to escape poverty and the ghetto that there was literally no room for patriotic folks like himself. Satisfied with the pronouncement, which dumbfounded more than a few of his listeners who had lived the sixties, DeLay marched off to the convention.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/chatterbox/1999/05/what_did_you_do_in_the_war_hammer.html


https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=rLJkWsTHOYTQjwPs4ai4DA&q=tom+delay+military+service&oq=tom+delay+military+service&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i160k1.5268.23130.0.25569.34.32.1.0.0.0.410.3920.0j23j4-1.25.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..8.25.3899.6..0j35i39k1j0i131i67k1j0i67k1j0i131k1j0i46i67k1j46i67k1j0i131i46i67k1j46i131i67k1j0i20i264k1j0i20i263k1j0i10k1j0i20i263i264k1j0i22i30k1j33i21k1j33i22i29i30k1.150.HbLYgxNPR7M

[JonLP24]

39. I got in the military with a GED

There were occasional people with rich dads but most came from poor areas for employment opportunities.

It isn't true that it is difficult to join if your poor. Most common type of crimes you can get a waiver for.

The Army takes GED.

[Kaleva]

42. The Army place a limit on the percentage of recruits who have a GED

Becasue there are more applicants who have a GED then there are slots, a applicant with a GED generally has to perform higher on the ASVAB then one who has a h.s. diploma.

"The Army allows no more than ten percent each year, and the Navy limits GED enlistments to no more than five to ten percent each year. There are always many more GED-holders who want to enlist than there are available slots, so — even to be considered — a GED holder must score much higher on the Armed Forces Vocational Aptitude Battery ( ASVAB ), than a high school diploma recruit."

https://www.thebalancecareers.com/i-have-a-ged-am-i-eligible-to-join-the-military-3354077

"The Army has the reputation of approving the most moral waivers. The Air Force and Coast Guard approve the fewest. The Navy and Marine Corps fall somewhere in between. However, that's not always the case. There have been times, during extremely good recruiting periods, where the Army won't consider any applicant who needs a moral waiver, at all.​ During times of downsizing of the military, not being at war, and when the civilian economy slow, the need of fewer recruits meets receiving more applications - this is the formula for fewer waivers getting approved. However, the opposite situation will improve the chances of waiver approval.

Another important factor is how attractive of an applicant you are to the service. Generally, those with high ASVAB AFQT scores and/or a high school diploma/college credits have a higher chance of favorable waiver consideration than a candidate who scores low on the ASVAB, and/or has a GED."

https://www.thebalancecareers.com/military-criminal-history-moral-waivers-3354042

The bottom line is that it's much harder for someone who doesn't have at least a high school diploma to enlist and there are years when even the Army doesn't accept any applicants who have a criminal record.

[JonLP24]

50. I did get a high ASVAB score

I had a 111 GT score which is high enough to be a Warrant Officer.

If I can do it anyone can do it and sometimes the Army is easier than finding a regular job. I remember someone begged the Battalion commander to stay in the Army because he was worried about being homeless. I also had good friends from Moss Point, MS. Plus I was jobless when I joined the Army.

[Kaleva]

53. You also have to have a high school diploma and meet other requirements.

"REQUIREMENTS
Do you have what it takes to become a Warrant Officer? Applicants for the Warrant Officer Candidate School and Warrant Officer Flight Training program must:

Have a high school diploma.
Be at least 18 years old at the time of enlistment and not have passed their 33rd birthday at the time of selection (for aviators) or their 46th birthday for all other specialties. Age waivers are considered on a case-by-case basis.
Be a citizen of the United States.
For WOFT Candidates only: Achieve a qualifying score on the Selection Instrument for Flight Training (SIFT). SIFT test results are valid indefinitely, as long as verifiable official records exist. No waivers are available for failure to meet the minimum SIFT score.
Earn a General Technical score of 110 or higher on the Armed Forces Vocational Aptitude Battery (ASVAB).
Have at least 12 months remaining on their enlistment contract.
Meet the Army's screening height and weight standards and pass the standard three-event Army Physical Fitness Test (APFT) not more than six months before their application packet is boarded.
Take a physical exam and meet entry medical fitness standards as determined by military medical authorities no more than 24 months prior to the date of application. Aviation applicants must also undergo a Class 1A Flight Physical Examination and have results approved by Flight Surgeons at Fort Rucker, Alabama, prior to the selection board. The Flight Physical must be less than 18 months old."

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1002&pid=12857389

"Flight Aptitude Test
To be selected for warrant officer and helicopter flight training school, you must also take the Army's Flight Aptitude Selection Test. A score of at least 90 is required on the FAST. The flight aptitude test covers topics like instrument comprehension, complex movements, knowledge about helicopters and mechanical functions. The test determines if you have the basic knowledge and skills the Army requires of its pilots."

https://careertrend.com/required-asvab-score-army-helicopter-pilots-26755.html

For those who wish to become a warrant officer in a field that is not aviation, an applicant must be at least an E-6.

"WARRANT OFFICER CANDIDATE SCHOOL
Those interested in becoming Warrant Officers must be selected for Warrant Officer Candidate School (WOCS), which is generally held in Fort Rucker, Alabama. Technical specialty applicants must be Staff Sergeant/E-6 or higher to be considered for selection. There is no minimum grade requirement for aviation applicants."

https://www.goarmy.com/careers-and-jobs/current-and-prior-service/advance-your-career/warrant-officer.html

[JonLP24]

54. I was just saying my GT score was high enough to become a Warrant Officer

There are many other requirements. I was enlisted the whole time I was in.

[hardluck]

40. Some more stats

An interesting subject


https://www.cfr.org/article/demographics-us-military

[Demsrule86]

59. The last year I taught school before going into business...I had an 18 year old freshman

who was never going to pass Algebra II...new requirement said four years of math (no business math)...Algebra, Geomety, Algebra II and pre- Calc. I was able to get the kid into the Army with help from a recruiter...it was the kid's dream and his parents were on board...they let him in and sent him their schools so he got a diploma and had the job he wanted...this was about ten years ago...so there loopholes but it is difficult.