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queentonic

(243 posts)
Fri Jan 17, 2020, 03:01 AM Jan 2020

The world is drowning in debt

The world is drowning in debt
By Anneken Tappe, CNN Business
Updated 6:07 AM ET, Tue January 14, 2020

New York (CNN Business)The world's already huge debt load smashed the record for the highest debt-to-GDP ratio before 2019 was even over.

In fact, it broke that record in the first nine months of last year. Global debt, which comprises borrowings from households, governments and companies, grew by $9 trillion to nearly $253 trillion during that period, according to the Institute of International Finance.

That puts the global debt-to-GDP ratio at 322%, narrowly surpassing 2016 as the highest level on record.

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https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/13/economy/global-debt-record/?hpt=ob_blogfooterold

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PatrickforO

(14,586 posts)
1. The question I always ask at this juncture is this:
Fri Jan 17, 2020, 03:36 AM
Jan 2020

If the national debt is money we owe to ourselves, then WHY are we paying it back to bankers and investors with interest?

A central banking system that is owned by bankers is unsustainable. It is a big part of the problem of wealth inequality. If we are to actually save this planet's habitability for our species, and plan forward to address human need and not human greed, then this whole system is unsustainable.

We've got to rid ourselves of a central bank which is said to be quasi-governmental, but is actually owned primarily by Citibank and JP Morgan Chase.

We have to rid ourselves of the primacy of the shareholder doctrine, and pull the teeth of Wall Street.

We need to get rid of the corporate stranglehold on Washington, reverse Citizen United and related Supreme Court decisions.

I don't claim to know all the answers, but what we have now is unsustainable.

FBaggins

(26,756 posts)
4. The answer to your question...
Fri Jan 17, 2020, 08:16 AM
Jan 2020

... is found in realizing that the premise is faulty.

The national debt is not “money we owe to ourselves”

The interest on the part that we arguably owe to ourselves (e.g., the Social Security trust fund) is paid to that fund.

Amishman

(5,559 posts)
9. Yup, it is owed to whoever holds the bonds
Fri Jan 17, 2020, 11:26 AM
Jan 2020

With is primarily banks, the rich, and pension funds.

Our stock market is a bubble (price to earning and price to book ratios are far above historical averages)

When things derail, it is going to be extremely messy.

FBaggins

(26,756 posts)
10. It's fair to say that debt is likely to be owned by people who have money
Fri Jan 17, 2020, 11:47 AM
Jan 2020

The two largest buckets are actually foreign countries and Social Security.

Banks and wealthy individuals actually make up a comparatively tiny piece.

A HERETIC I AM

(24,376 posts)
6. "I don't claim to know all the answers"
Fri Jan 17, 2020, 08:43 AM
Jan 2020

But you did claim this;

We've got to rid ourselves of a central bank which is said to be quasi-governmental, but is actually owned primarily by Citibank and JP Morgan Chase.


Prove it.

Show some evidence that the Federal Reserve System is “owned primarily by Citibank and JP Morgan Chase.“

And as mentioned in a reply just above, we don’t owe the national debt “to ourselves”. The US Treasury sells bonds of varying maturities to cover the difference between tax revenue and congressional expenditures, and those bonds are sold via auction on a regular basis.

The largest danger for the United States is that those auctions will begin to fail or not be fully subscribed. If that happens, interest rates (the “coupon”) on the longer bonds especially, will have to rise in order to attract buyers, thus exacerbating the problem

PatrickforO

(14,586 posts)
7. https://www.globalresearch.ca/who-owns-the-federal-reserve/10489
Fri Jan 17, 2020, 08:58 AM
Jan 2020

Article by Ellen Brown

Why do I think you're not going to accept this as proof?

A HERETIC I AM

(24,376 posts)
8. "Why do I think you're not going to accept this as proof?"
Fri Jan 17, 2020, 09:26 AM
Jan 2020

Because it’s not. Pretty simple, really.

I’m on the road and typing this on a phone, which is awkward and tedious. I don’t have my desktop computer handy to do the research needed to show you how flawed her arguments are, nor do I have the time, and frankly, the inclination to spend any time at all in debunking an incredibly tired canard and conspiracy theory that has been shown to be without merit innumerable times.

It is fine with me if you want to plant yourself in the “The Fed is a private bank” camp. Go right ahead. It’s nonsense and has been repeatedly demonstrated to be so, and you can find those demonstrations with a quick search. Of course, you can also find scores of nutbags who agree with that position and want to convince you that a group of nefarious men operate everything and rub their hands with glee every morning as they think of ways to screw over humanity.

People don’t seem to have any idea how common localized depressions were before the Federal Reserve System was put into place. It isn’t a perfect system, but it beats the hell out of the alternatives for stabilizing a monetary system.


But alas, the statement you made that I questioned is still not answered, and one nutbags (yeah, she’s a nutbag) webpage full of her opinions is in no way proof of your claim.

PatrickforO

(14,586 posts)
11. Given the history of the different colonies, then the US in the Civil War,
Sat Jan 18, 2020, 09:35 PM
Jan 2020

I don't necessarily buy your repudiation of Brown as a 'nutbag.' But let's say for a moment you're right.

Our current national debt is over $23 trillion, and is moving toward 77% of GDP.

In the face of this growing debt, in 2017 the Republicans passed the giant tax cut for their billionaire donors and corporations. No real need for it - the economy was already rolling along in expansion mode. But what it did is accelerate the buildup of deficits and thus addition to the national debt.

The ideology of neoconservatism calls for the buildup of an American empire, and the neoliberal mantra is 'deregulate, privatize and gut the New Deal.' It is. And the people who passed this tax cut - and I'm not talking about the 'know-nothing' tea baggers, but the congressional staff members who DO know - genuinely believe the only real role for the federal government is defense, national security, war.

The Chicago school of economics radicalized the primacy of the shareholder doctrine, and so popularized the (talk about a conspiracy theory!) idea of 'supply-side' or trickle-down economics that it has nearly completely undermined the New Deal, and worse, made the general public think of taxes as being 'bad,' somehow a government rip-off. Trickle-down, of course, has never, does not now, and never will work. It just doesn't. Instead it systematically moves wealth into fewer and fewer hands.

So, the Fed is involved in the control of money supply, and we are now in a superheated economy with a U3 unemployment rate that is currently 1.2% below what most economists consider 'full employment' which is defined as that state below which there is danger of inflation. And inflation IS happening. All over this country we see unaffordable housing, and in supermarkets what the Brits call 'shrinkflation.' How about that $4 loaf of bread?

Now, the wealthiest 0.1% of people in this country hold the same amount of wealth as the bottom 90%. The American middle class, once the envy of the world, has been nickel and dimed almost to extinction, the national debt is unsustainable, and programs millions of Americans are counting on - Social Security and Medicare - are in danger because of this decades-old and accelerating Republican transfer of wealth to billionaires.

Our system is so corrupt we can't even seem to hold fair elections, and corporate dollars are now considered 'free speech.' Not only has the national government lost its moral compass, but a third of this country is white nationalist in all but name. Trump's daddy wore the hood, for God's sake.

In short, HERETIC, the system we have is not sustainable. It is a house of cards that will end either in bloody revolution or with the very planet we live on becoming uninhabitable.

It isn't just the government's debt that is unsustainable, either. Consumer debt is growing out of control, and 2/3 of bankruptcies are due to medical debt. In my state, 733K people owe an average of over $30K in student debt, with an average remittance of $350 per month - money that cannot be used by our children to built their wealth or purchase goods and services.

So, HERETIC, we've made our people debt slaves. Our children debt slaves. Our government is so in debt that the very programs we count on to sustain us in old age are in danger.

You say the Fed is imperfect. Yes, it is. But it is only the tip of the iceberg. Our entire economy has gone the way of libertarian predatory capitalism. When once we steeled ourselves as a people for a sustained war on poverty, now it is every person for themselves and devil take the hindmost.

We already have fiat currency, HERETIC. We do. Whether the Fed is the central bank, or the central bank is run by the US Congress and prints greenbacks like Lincoln did.

I went online and looked at why Ellen Brown might be wrong and ran into a bunch of smug Wall Street newsletter types talking about hyperinflation in Zimbabwe. That isn't apples and apples.

Nonetheless, I could be wrong in proposing that the US government repeal the Federal Reserve Act of 1913 and take over central banking, printing enough money to pay off the national debt. At the same time a massive revision (increase) of taxes, with billionaires taxed at confiscatory levels, corporations such as Amazon actually having to PAY taxes, and the Wall Street arbitrage 'bots slowed down by a minuscule transaction tax on each 'trade.'

Because it isn't just healthcare. Social Security for our seniors. For every ten workers who lose their jobs due to technology, four workers have to be upskilled to run the technology. What about the other six? Most of the jobs at biggest risk for automation are lower skilled jobs requiring a no education - semi-skilled, low-wage work. How are those people living? Millions in this country are hungry at least once a month.

And the clock is ticking on climate change. It may be too late, but it may be we have a few short years left to dramatically reduce our carbon emissions so our kids don't need to go underground and breathe filtered air like a bunch of troglodytes. What did HG Wells call them? Morlocks?

Capitalism is killing the world, HERETIC. So, yeah, you can blithely dismiss me as some kind of tin-foil hat wearing nut job, but what ARE we going to do?

Yeah, we gotta get rid of trump and paint the country blue.

Then what?



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