Why discussion boards are far superior to oral conversations:

[Baitball Blogger]

This move from Mast was captured by C-Span. Obviously a Republican. He made a clever move and now the military on the social media networks are using it as an affirmation that killing Sulemaini was justified, therefore vindicates Trump. And it's the fact that we have gung-ho, shoot everything in sight military mentality that makes everything so much harder.

Essentially Mast asks a simple question, which did have a retort, though it would have turned into a firestorm because they will not listen.

To start, apparently there is a wall in the capital that has the names of soldiers who died in the "war on terror". I imagine he's not talking about the Vietnam War because "The War on Terror" really started after 9/11, but I'm surmising. However, if he is talking about Vietnam, it was a war of conscription so we had soldiers who had a much diverse opinion on the war they were fighting. But this is the problem we have had since those days. Soldiers were used by leaders to stifle criticism against their mistakes. Apparently, it's a strategy that Mast used in the C-Span clip.

Mast asks, "Can Any of You Provide Me One Name On That Wall That Doesn't Justify Killing Soleimani?"

He then had a 2:30 minute moment of silence, which was interrupted once by someone who said, "you made your point." But that person was quickly swatted back by Robert's Rule.

After viewing the video, I thought of one comeback that someone should have asked. "In light of the knowledge that George Bush II's attack on Iraq is the worst strategic mistake in American history, how can you use dead soldiers to justify an assassination that breaks your own laws? Because now we have to ask this question, how many American soldiers that died during that war would prefer to be alive today, rather than to be used to attack a leader that had nothing to do with 9/11?

[lapfog_1]

1. Mr. Mast... it isn't the names that are on some wall

and to be clear I don't know what wall you are referring to...

no, it's the names of the ADDITIONAL servicemen who will certainly die because we killed Suleimani

[Baitball Blogger]

2. Precisely.

We still don't know how much Trump destabilized the Middle East, further. The verdict is still out.

I really hate it when the Right use soldiers to push their memes and silence our retorts, but it infuriates me when they use dead soldiers, who don't have a chance to speak for themselves. Because, let's face it. It's OUR responsibility to vote in presidents who don't put their lives in danger, and information is valuable in making the right choice. It's difficult to do our job effectively and ask the hard questions when they continually put soldiers in the line of fire of those questions.

[braddy]

3. WWII was a war of conscription, Vietnam was fought overwhelmingly by volunteers.

[Baitball Blogger]

4. I had a brother of the age and he went through the draft.

ALL the young men of that age had to put themselves through that lottery. If you have a link to confirm that Vietnam was fought overwhelmingly by volunteers, I would love to see it.

Also World War II was, well, a world war. My father dropped out of high school in order to sign up for it. Of course, he had to wait until he was of age, but it was a war where everyone could see the universal implications.

[braddy]

6. I went through the draft as well, these figures are from a VFW article about a study on the draft.

WWI, 72% of servicemen were drafted—50% of the men in France’s trenches were conscripted.

WWII, 66% of all U.S. forces were drafted. Of the 10.5 million Army personnel 93% were draftees.

From 1946 to 1973, 5,077,185 men were drafted. During the Korean War era, 30% of total troops were drafted. In December 1950, 82% of the Army in Korea was made up of regulars. Exactly two years later, the ratio was 37% regular to 63% draftee in the war zone.

During the Vietnam era, 1,728,344 men were drafted. Of the forces who actually served in Vietnam, 648,500 (25%) were draftees. Draftees (17,725) accounted for 30.4% of combat deaths in Vietnam.”

[Baitball Blogger]

8. Here is the question I have to ask:

Did the US already have an army in place, because of a build-up in the military since WWII? Which would explain the lower draft numbers for Vietnam?

The ratio of death rates for Vietnam draftees is chilling. Would this be because we have a tendency of putting Lieutenants into leadership positions, who had college degrees but no military service?

[braddy]

11. Lieutenants are people with military service appropriate to their rank, I don't know what that meant

[Baitball Blogger]

20. Sure you do.

During Vietnam those volunteers that went through college first, became commissioned officers. First Lieutenants, I believe. And they were expected to lead their platoons into combat. During the Vietnam War, for many first Lueys, their first military experience WAS the Vietnam War. Soldiers became aware that their sergeants had more experience and were better prepared to keep them alive.

I'm sure it had happened before, but the Vietnam War was the first time I ever heard the term, "fragging."

[Buzz cook]

24. 90 day wonders.

During WWII thousands of people went through officer traing and then went to the front.

The German's were impressed with the quality of America's Jr. officers.

I don't know the number of draftee or ROTC lieutenants compared to service academy in Vietnam.

It has been claimed that West Point grads were trained to fight the last war and they were encouraged to be "active"'. That tended to put their commands in greater danger. It followed that the troops reacted negatively to that.

[braddy]

44. That is very inaccurate, a college degree didn't mean that you were automatically an officer

and the first officer rank is 2nd lieutenant, I was offered OCS which is Officer Candidate School and was an offer made to enlisted men of E-4 or higher if they were perceived as officer material.

Any infantry officer leading troops in combat had been in training for a long time but all well trained American soldiers (which they all were, especially officers) have to have a first time for everything, just as sergeants do.

Anyone who has worked with engineers knows that many engineers fresh out of training lack real world experience and the old tradesmen mock them for that lack, but it is an inescapable reality for all humans, old sergeants, old tradesmen, old Generals were all new at the beginning.

[Baitball Blogger]

46. Well when lives matter,

It’s not always the same thing. And by the General level they should know who is a toxic leader. Those should be automatically removed from service. Toxic leaders will only breed a toxic band of brothers. We just don’t need that in our civilian communities

[braddy]

47. I didn't understand that post at all, it came off as gibberish to me.

[Baitball Blogger]

48. I was responding to your last paragraph.

The immediate responsibility of protecting human lives that are in your unit is not the same as the responsibility that an engineer would face. And "old Generals" just reminded me that I have met more than my share of retired officers that came across as toxic to me.

I think that the military promotes too many that shouldn't be promoted, and expects civilians to kiss their lapels in private life. This may have resulted in an erosion in military integrity and honor when the military is spewing out retired officers who expect no one to question their decisions. That doesn't translate in private occupations when you're judge based on your knowledge base of the widgets you're selling.

[braddy]

52. I compared young engineers to 2nd lieutenants because it used to amuse me how similar they were,

most of them appeared stupid but you knew they would learn in time.

Engineering is also very much tied to war. "West Point, the first engineering college established in the United States, populated those that followed for nearly a century. Its graduates took the lead in building for the United States its canals, transportation routes, and interstates, and participated in the development of the space program and its subsequent exploration."

[braddy]

45. Media has convinced us to connect the Vietnam war and the draft, yet far more men were

drafted in the single year of 1918 than from all of the years of 1964 through 1973, and again far more were drafted from 1950 through 1954.

In fact while 1,840,640 men were drafted from 1964 through 1973.

1,277,363 were drafted from 1954 through 1963. This draft business and the Vietnam war is weird stuff.

[caraher]

39. One complicating factor

Many volunteers would not have enlisted were it not for the draft. A report to the Senate Armed Services Committee on the transition to all-volunteer armed forces estimated that roughly half of "volunteers" are what they called "true volunteers" - those who would have joined the military absent draft pressures.

When the decision was made in 1970 to phase out conscription in favor of an all-volunteer armed force, draft inductions averaged over 16,000 per month. Only about half of those who enlisted were "true" volunteers — men who freely chose military service and who were not influenced by the draft.

So of the 75% or so who were volunteers, experts concluded that half were there because of the draft. When you add that figure to the actual draftees, the total is about 62% - a bit less than the WWII draftee rate, but not as dramatic a difference as refusing to account for volunteer motivation would make things appear.

An example of this sort of thing is my brother-in-law's story. When he got a low number in the lottery he immediately joined the Coast Guard. These kinds of decisions were commonplace (and interestingly enough, made more often by whites, affecting the. racial balance of the armed forces and the draftee vs. volunteer populations).

Administrative data show that men with draft lottery numbers that put them at high risk of conscription are overrepresented among men who voluntarily enlisted in the military, but that the effect of the lottery on enlistment is stronger for whites than for nonwhites.

[braddy]

42. The draft was continuous from 1941 to 1973, except for one year, and those afraid of physical

danger could enlist in the Navy, or Air Force, or Coast Guard, or stay in college, or become a teacher, or become a Mormon, get married (when that was the rule) etc.

[braddy]

37. About 70% of our Vietnam war dead were volunteers, 70% of our WWII dead were draftees.

93% of our WWII Army was draftees and all services (including Coast Guard) drafted, making about 66% of our military draftees.

During Vietnam only the Marines and Army drafted.

What year did your father go in, my dad was already in the Navy and in Borneo when Pearl Harbor was attacked.

[Baitball Blogger]

40. He was of age the last year to year and a half of the war.

He was a marine and his platoon or division would have been set up to provide long-range artillery fire. He said that everyone was gung-ho about engaging with the enemy, but he heard where the fighting was taking place when they embarked for the war and figured out mathematically that the trajectory of the rockets wouldn't be needed by the time they reached the battle field. He was very disappointed. He said that his sergeant was always trying to temper their desire for battle because he was consumed with the job of bringing them back home alive.

And, by the way, your statistics don't add up. You said that 36% if the casualties were draftees in Vietnam, if I recall.

[braddy]

41. Don't recall, read my posts. I never said 36% and never used the word "casualties"

[braddy]

43. "Artillery", "rockets", wouldn't be needed in the "battlefield", I was in the artillery for a while

and in FDC for a while and am confused by that post, what kind of artillery unit was he in?

[Baitball Blogger]

49. A quote from his book:

"I was assigned to the Artillery Fire Direction School at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina, where students learned to set and adjust azimuth and elevation for emplaced artillery pieces using tarage tables, slide rules, and plotting boards amid radio messages with forward observers and gun crew chiefs."

Then he says that he was assigned to the 17th Artillery Battalion, "Instead of being incorporated into the Fire Direction Section, I was placed in the Perimeter Defense Squad, which consisted of eight machine gunners and a squad leader responsible for protecting the four 155mm guns and crews of "B" Battery by preparing and manning the machine guns positions that covered the front and flanks of the emplaced Long Toms.

Next page: "When we disembarked at Pearl Harbor, we learned that the 17th Artillery Battalion was assigned to the Fifth Amphibious Corps Artillery, Fleet Marine Force. Our mission was to provide long-range artillery support to Marine infantry units during an amphibious operation. This meant that we could not participate in the small island invasions underway and being planned because our 155mm would overshoot Japanese fortifications. On checking a map of the Pacific area, I noticed that the only feasible use of our unit would be for an invasion of the main island of Japan itself. Nevertheless, we prepared for any assignment that higher authority might order. It is a Marine Corps creed that all marines are capable of fighting as infantrymen, regardless of their specialized training or current assignment."

I will say something I know about the military from my father's time that I don't see today. Contingencies. They seemed to anticipate everything and were prepared for everything. Maybe because my dad was very technical in his thinking, this is how I see real military men. They're not empty suits. They are well read and they respect analysis and math.

[braddy]

50. I went the same route as him, FDC bored me to tears so I asked to be sent to the guns, I also

served on 155s, in my opinion the military still prepares for contingencies. WWII was also a time of terrible mistakes, unnecessary deaths and losses and misjudgments by our military.

[blueinredohio]

51. One of my brothers was drafted as well.

He doesn't talk about it to this day.

[Beringia]

5. Something seems missing in your view that Vietnam was mostly volunteer

What about so many men fleeing to Canada. What about the high profile cases of people who wouldn't go, like Muhammad Ali. What about the fact many chickenhawks were draft dodgers like Trump and Bush 2. How about the fact many middle class people who would never have volunteered had to go. I know one dentist that didn't want to go but was drafted.

[braddy]

7. None of that changes the facts, and Trump wasn't drafted but was not a draft dodger, while George W.

is a fellow military veteran.

Serving in the military is not being a draft dodger and neither is not being drafted being a "draft dodger" that designation is not made for those who had normal deferments and medical issues etc. but for those who went to extraordinary, even illegal means while refusing to serve, such as leaving the country.

It is also interesting when none vets attack other people for not serving in the military.

[Beringia]

9. Right, so only veterans can comment

I expected you to say that.

Call Trump and Bush 2 combat dodgers than if you want to change the terminology. There was widespread coverage about how Bush2 did not want to serve in Vietnam, but wanted to stay safe, and also that he barely even made it to his National Guard assignment if at all.

[braddy]

12. I never said anything about commenting, but it is definitely bizarre for non-vets to be outraged

and insulting, and mocking at others who did not serve, and it is truly ridiculous to call actual vets, 'draft dodgers'.

[Beringia]

13. It is not bizarre

I have been anti-war ever since high school in the 70s. And as citizens, we all have the right to call out the immorality of many wars. Many men go to war because of social pressure, which is not right.

[braddy]

14. So you hate people that don't serve, or weren't drafted? Why would a non vet mock and insult others

who didn't serve either?

[Beringia]

15. Where do you come up with the word hate

Who am I mocking, George 2. So you like him?

"hate people that don't serve", what??? I think it takes courage to be a conscientious objector and is a hardship to flee your own country.

[braddy]

16. I meant the insulting passion and mocking of those like you who never served, why do those

who never served go after others and call them "draft dodgers" for accepting draft deferments, and even for actually serving in the military.

Also, why is it so terrible to not have served during the 1960s early 70s and yet is just fine since then?

[Beringia]

17. I am talking about

people like Trump and Bush2 who make wars, but would never want to be in combat. I made that point earlier. You haven't answered, do you like Trump and Bush2 and you think they acted well in the way they avoided combat, but have no problem having others die?

I don't think it is wrong to serve. I think many people believe honestly in protecting the nation and so go into combat for that reason. I have a problem with immoral wars and pressure put on people to go to war in order to make money, or prove they are not cowards.

[Kingofalldems]

19. How about making up a fake injury to get out of serving?

That's a draft dodger and his name is Donald Trump.

[braddy]

30. Medical, college, height, religious, gay, etc. deferments are not "draft dodging", it is merely

not being drafted.
Are all presidents and candidates and citizens condemned for not serving, did you serve, did your girlfriend, did your mailman or your Senator or your favorite president, or presidential candidate?

[Kingofalldems]

34. Trump is a draft dodger.

That's a fact.

[braddy]

36. I fought the draft and beat it and was a part of that world, receiving ordinary deferments is not

"draft dodging", I despised draft dodgers.

Do you know the military and draft history of our recent presidents and candidates?

[Kingofalldems]

38. I know that only one made up a fake injury with the help of his daddy.

And that was Donald Trump.

[Baitball Blogger]

22. Civilians have a right to opine about someone's military experience when they

opt to run for public office. We don't make a military oath to obey or be compliant. Nor do we draw military salaries or pensions.

[braddy]

25. That topic never came up.

[marble falls]

33. As an enlistee Viet vet, I have no problem with people not serving ...

however I do have a problem with people who ginned up reasons not to be drafted, who rah rah up wars and make claims like he understands military because he was a "cadet" at a rich man's school.

If the Orange Orangatang had an issue with the war, why he not not honestly ask for a deferment?

My bone spurs didn't keep me from signing up.

[Kingofalldems]

18. Bush is not a veteran.

NGs and ERs of that era are not considered veterans.

[braddy]

26. LOL! LOL!LOL! Veterans aren't veterans, I'll have to mention that at my next veterans meeting.

[Kingofalldems]

29. They are not considered veterans. Check with the VA.

So LOL all you want.

[braddy]

31. I'm sorry I laughed and I apologize. I was regular army during the Vietnam war and in an elite

special operations Guard unit during the 1980s and have friends (and meetings) with combat veteran National Guard guys now, being a detail oriented guy I will have to learn more about that, I always assumed a National Guard fighter pilot or Green Beret, or Ranger, or Reserve Navy SEAL was a fellow veteran, but now I will have to research that status.

You have opened up a new can of worms for me darn it, their current status is different than it was 50 years ago of course but 50 years ago is the time I usually post about.

Do you have good sources for this area of military information, if they aren't on hand for you I will do my own research, but this is interesting.

[Kingofalldems]

32. NG myself.

Not considered a veteran.

[braddy]

35. For many years I just assumed. The Guard unit I was in was almost all ex active, Rangers, SEALs,

Green Berets, Vietnam combat vets from the Army and Marines, all Airborne, etc. and we spent a whole lot of time on active duty since we worked for 5th Corp, and this detail of veteran status never came up,

Because the Guard is back into being used for wars this doesn't arise in my current involvement with vets, but now it will.

[Baitball Blogger]

10. Like I said, Braddy. It's our responsibility to vote presidents into office that

won't put our sons and daughters in danger. THAT IS OUR RIGHT TO QUESTION. One thing that has always been true is that hypocrisy from those in leadership positions is a major concern. Trump and Cheney were perfect examples. This is a perfect good use of the vetting process.

And GWBII claimed he was going into the Texas National Guard in order to learn how to fly combat planes, and then went AWOL. Defend them all if you like. But we have every say in the matter if they ascend to leadership positions in this country.

[yardwork]

21. Um, no.

[braddy]

28. Yes, would you like more information about this aspect of military history?

[Buzz cook]

23. No

The draft was still around during Vietnam.

[braddy]

27. Read the post again, and then the thread.