Bread and Circuses

[PCIntern]

When I was a kid taking my six years of Latin, I cannot tell you how many times my Cambridge-Oxford educated British teacher would repeat the phrase: Bread and Circuses were indicative of the downfall of the Roman Empire.

I am a moderate sports fan and have attended well over 100 rock concerts and probably 800 classical music concerts so it’s not that I’m anti-entertainment BUT...

Everyone in Philly for example is extolling the virtues of the city in recent years and when queried as to the criteria, one universally hears about the terrific new restaurants and the access to first-class entertainment at a plethora of venues.

We are having troubles finding our libraries, our Pulitzer Prize winning papers are dying, our schools are dreadful, street crimes are not being prosecuted, a tertiary care hospital was closed in the middle of the city so a real estate developer whose corporate name is Paladin (you kids look up the tv show Have Gun Will Travel to see a show about a rich, intellectual gunslinger/killer), and other atrocities. But no one cares: because you can get a superb meal at any one of two hundred restaurants and then go see Springsteen or the Stones or any one of dozens of first rate headliners. Our kids have essentially zero education and are fundamentally nihilists. They don’t vote and don’t care to. This is what happens at the end: no one cares. Until it’s too late.

[handmade34]

1. years ago when I was teaching

I had a sticker on my back window "APATHY IS DEADLY"... one day I took a couple of my students to the school farm and when they got in, one looked at the sticker and asked "What is apathy? ...at least she was interested enough to ask

[Blue_true]

12. I had to ask a teacher what "vain" meant.

By the time the girls in the class got through teasing my ass, I wished that I had never asked. Apparently they thought that I was vain.

[Turin_C3PO]

2. For what it's worth,

young people have historically never voted in large numbers. This isn’t a new thing. And besides, more young people oppose Trump than older people.

[UTUSN]

3. K&R

[lunatica]

4. I just recently retired from UC Berkeley and beg to differ

Young people are far more in touch than you think. Everything they want to know is in their iPhones and in social media. They have access to the internet ‘library’ which is limitless. They’re in touch. It’s just not in the way we older people are.

[Generic Other]

6. I am an English professor

A 10-page research paper written on an iphone is NOT my idea of how you generate quality work.

[lunatica]

7. What does that have to do with whether young kids are in touch

or know about current affairs.

And I never came across any student who handed in their iPhone as a paper.

[Generic Other]

9. Sigh

You haven't encountered one who admitted it. I was a CC prof.

[lunatica]

10. A Community College is a far cry from UC Berkeley.

[Generic Other]

15. 30 years in the trenches

Most Americans go to CC's, not Berkeley -- unless they are rich enough to pay the admissions people off. Then all bets are off.

[Hekate]

28. Oh dear me. The first 2 years are exactly transferable & cost pennies versus Berkeley...

You just need to focus on your core requirements and your grades, just like anyone else. Then you can transfer to UC or State University system as a 3rd year student.

As a family of modest means all of us started at our local CC and most transferred into the UC system: my sister went to Berkeley to become a computer engineer, our brother went to UC Santa Barbara to become a geophysicist. I was the exception: I went back to Hawaii which I felt was my home (Dad worked for Lockheed, and his job took us out of state for 8 years, then back to California). So my first degree was at UH Manoa, though I considered both Berkeley and Santa Cruz. Ultimately I did return to California permanently, and when the kids were in high school I got my PhD at Pacifica Graduate Institute as the UC system did not have the program I sought.

I know it must be thrilling to have the experience of living in dorms at 18 and discovering campus life, but we all skipped that part even after we transferred, in favor of cheaper shared housing off campus where we could keep our own hours to accommodate our jobs.

My own experience as an 18 year old stuck living at home for an extra 2 years was that there was a small group of highly-motivated and exceedingly bright men and women just 10 years older than I, who were utterly driven to learn. I would not have traded that experience for anything. In addition, the classes were small compared to university, and all my profs knew my name -- an experience that was not repeated until I went to Pacifica for my MA and doctorate.

[lunatica]

30. I was responding to snark about today's youth

which is why I said I begged to differ about the OP’s derrogatory remarks about today’s youth. I dislike generational stereotyping or shaming no matter who does it.

I also went to Community College. I even returned after I was 30 to go to drawing and sculpting classes. Those were my best years because I developed my artistic skills while enjoying every minute of it. I’ve even posted a few of my paintings and drawings on DU.

[Hekate]

32. Gotcha

[PCIntern]

8. Ex-actly!

They’re unaware of the difference between “your” ands “you’re” because they are both spelled “ur”.

[Blue_true]

13. I agree some, but not totally.

Kids today can look of a volume of information in 10 minutes that would have taken us two years to find as students. But they absolutely can't write at all, their handwriting is autrocious and their sentence structuring is abysmal.

[lunatica]

14. I would blame that on their teachers

I know grammar and spelling and how to write because I had a couple of really dedicated teachers who pushed the students to do it all correctly. But then, being an expat I went to private schools, so there’s that.

[Blue_true]

16. I went to public schools.

In first-fourth grade, we were drilled relentlessly on handwriting, spelling and sentence formation. I remember that my first grade teacher was a real stickler on every thing, but she was particularly focused on penmanship, spelling and math.

[Generic Other]

17. Hmmmm...

You should use a comma after correctly, but private schools don't enforce that rule I guess

[lunatica]

22. You're wrong. It's never too late to learn something.

https://wordcounter.net/blog/2016/10/26/102560_can-you-start-a-sentence-with-but.html

[Generic Other]

24. Of course you can skip the comma, but should you?

I am not here to argue grammar with you. I was just needling you for your elitist attitude toward those at CCs.

I took exception to your assertion that what I know of teaching CC students for 30 years has no basis in reality. While you may have a higher achieving student, in most institutions half of all college students attend community colleges.

This may mean, I have more experience with the average student population. They do take shortcuts all the time. They are so overworked and busy that they often have no choice. They work minimum wage jobs to afford college. They are not privileged. They do not all have perfect 4.0 GPAs. Some cannot afford computers so they compose and research on their phones.

They are veterans with PTSD, teenagers taking college courses to graduate high school early, single mothers working double shifts at McDonald's. Many are bright, but they do not have the advantages a lot of your students have. They struggle with a myriad of problems your students may not encounter.

I do meet your students sometimes, but only after they have failed, come home worse for the experience, and are ready to start fresh.

Please do not deny my experience as you look down your nose at my lowly teaching position. And feel free not to use the comma after but to separate two independent clauses. I really don't care.

[lunatica]

25. If you had said all this from the beginning we would both

be in agreement from the start. But your post came across as if you were being critical of today’s youth for not being as intelligent as past students. This thread was started with that premise and I disagree with that. I don’t like generational bashing or shaming.

But since that apparently isn’t what you were doing then I apologize for coming across as elitist. I was simply defending today’s youth.

[Generic Other]

27. They are not less intelligent

And I also apologize for suggesting this. I actually have to admire a kid for trying to write a research paper on a phone, but I can attest it does not create an A paper.

You are right they do have knowledge at their fingertips. I read Encyclopedia Britannica as a kid at the library, but I often got the feeling I was the first to crack some of the volumes open.

Lots of students know more about the Kardashians than anyone ever would want to know and nothing about what's in their textbooks. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink, my father used to say.

I wish I had had an opportunity to go to Berkeley. What do you teach? I mostly taught Mythology, Creative Writing and English 101.

[lunatica]

29. I worked in Administration

in the College of Engineering, Statistics, Rhetoric and in various Research Departments. I was a student there too, as were both my parents.

I was even born in the UCSF hospital.

[Generic Other]

31. My parents never finished high school

I was the youngest but the first kid in my family to go to college.

Seeing your vita, I am afraid your areas of study were above my pay grade. I was the artsy-fartsy one who read all the books I could lug home from the public library. There was a Bible, a dictionary and some Japanese comics in my home.

I was born in a military hospital where they charged my parents a dollar per pound. 7 bucks.

[lunatica]

33. Glad to meet you.

I’m glad we had this exchange. It sounds like you’re a stereotype buster and a natural born student, comfortable pursuing your own life’s education.

I was an art major which pretty much predestined a career of failure. Unfortunately they don’t think to make it a curriculum requirement to take business courses, which could arguably make more artists successful. So like many artists I became a waitress. I got married and became a housewife and took care of my son. I went back to the Community College to take courses in art for adult education and was very happy for a few years developing my art. It was the happiest time of my life. As elitist as I sounded I actually have a very high opinion of the immense value of Community Colleges. You have my respect for tackling the difficult range of student abilities encountered uniquely in CCs.

When I divorced I went to work in UC Berkeley in Administration. I stayed there until I retired 2 years ago. One of the many reasons I loved it there is because I truly enjoy talking and interacting with young people. In my job I was able to help them directly on many issues, including the tremendous stress of So when this thread was started to bash young people I jumped in to defend them.

[meadowlander]

19. Students at Berkeley aren't necessarily a representative sample of all young Americans.

I think the problem is having so many things competing for their attention all the time, it's hard to pick out the things that really matter.

My YouTube recommendations and Facebook and LinkedIn feeds are chock full of shit that isn't worth spending my time on and I'm really selective about what I watch and who I friend. People are just absolutely bombarded with content from the moment they wake up until the moment they go to bed. It's hard to find the time and brain space to actually process or reflect on anything.

[Generic Other]

5. They look forward to living in the ruins

Or rather dying. There will be no King Arthur this time.

[Blue_true]

11. No great empire has ever been defeated by external forces, until

it was weakened by internal decay.

[Generic Other]

18. You sound like a student of history

Being stabbed or shot or cancer? Robert Frost's "Fire and Ice."

Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I’ve tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.

[Blue_true]

20. Does the manner of death matter? The end result is the same.

Usually what has happened through history is corruption by officials or leaders have weakened empires, then a "savior" comes along, a con artist populist interested in nothing more than his own self-gratification. The populist and that ideology loom large for a while, but fails and in the process leaves the former empire as nothing but a weakened shell that external armies then finish off.

[Generic Other]

23. Frost seems not to see much difference, does he?

Like I said rather ineptly, a choice between stabbing or shooting vs. cancer. How did it come to this so fast?

I recall feeling like we were making some progress a few short years ago.

[Blue_true]

34. How did it get here so fast?

Actually it has been building since Reagan gutted the fabric of American industry, not that corporate america had not already started with it's binge of high executive salaries and failure to invest in plants, employee training, and newer machinery. So what started to develop was a list of needs that piled on top of existing needs (like a replacement for a good, but screwball on expenses healthcare system). By the time Bill Clinton came along that train was barreling down the tracks, he did a lot of good but made some of his own mistakes. Republicans fought tooth and nail to slow needed progress and they succeeded to a large extent.

Populists feed on fears, or they promise to meet unmet needs. Trump did some of both. So we are where we are.

How do we get back to a more sane track? I believe that we have to somehow eliminate corporations as they exist today and replace them with ones that are far more responsive to the needs of their employees and customers, essentially we need an entirely different type of business leader than what we have today. I believe once the new regime take hold, people will be less concerned about their individual needs due to them being met, people will likely focus more on societal needs with a charitable state of mind buttressing their thoughts.

[Generic Other]

35. Well reasoned response

Start with teaching business ethics in the schools. They seem to all have read the shark textbook. It's all about profits, hostile takeovers, vulture capitalism. They seem proud of their Martin Skreli-like tactics. Neo-Robber barons can't even pretend to care.

[Blue_true]

36. Yep, it has to start with ethics. nt

[appalachiablue]

21. Besides circuses and other amusements typical of end stage decline

Last edited Mon Feb 3, 2020, 01:51 AM - Edit history (1)

there are also other characteristic luxuries like gourmet foods for elites. It's all pretty basic- physical competition and violence for entertainment and every hedonistic pleasure and decadence you can think of, wine and women, more. SAMO.

[cilla4progress]

26. And what does "the downfall" mean in our case?

Only no longer “leader of the free world"? Who steps up? France? Canada? No one?

Or something else?