Re. socialism.

[Laelth]

Whether you acknowledge this fact or not, America loves socialism. I think that America is ready for another strong dose of socialism right now. I give you Harry Truman:



Now, THAT is a real Democrat.



-Laelth

[empedocles]

1. The issue is whether 'socialism' makes any sense this year in beating trump

[5X]

2. It makes the most sense this year.

We have a very weak incumbent with numerous problems and that should give us the best opportunity in a long time.

I support Warren, but would support Bernie if he takes it.

[Triloon]

3. More than ever

A social conscience, which trump doesnt have, is your friend.

[ProfessorPlum]

26. Of course it does!

Paying for civilization is a great campaign platform. More people should try it!

[Laelth]

31. +1 n/t

-Laelth

[emmaverybo]

4. That's Harry Truman responding to enemies once he had power. He never ran on socialism. This

is the case Bernie is trying to make now. But Bernie has changed his terms. Meanwhile, no picture of Truman on RussIan Honeymoon.

America does not love socialism. Social Security and Medicare are not socialism. Socialism is a dread word to many Americans who live outside Bernie’s movement.

Look, he has a tough case to make in an economy that is good enough for enough people—regardless of how bad it is for some and the crash to come after the election. Economic reform
that means higher taxes and big spending sells better in a depression.

[wnylib]

20. Very good response.

Very significant difference between Truman already in office and Sanders trying to sell an idea to get into office. Note, too, that he served only one elected term. The nation had become more conservative after the war, wben the economy had recovered from the Depression.

Currently, we are in a upswing after the Great Recession. Trump takes credit for it, even though it was Obama who laid the groundwork and saved us from a depression.

Americans do NOT love the word socialism. They fear it. As Truman said, politicians use the term as a negative put down to fuel fears of the word itself, and it works when they do that.

However, I believe that such programs as SS, pensions, and Medicare were borrowed from socialist movements. That is not the same as having a socialist-based economy. The economy remains capitalist, providing the incomes that pay into those social programs.

Point is, the vast majority of Americans are not aware enough of political terms and history to understand the distinctions. They are easily led by fear mongering over the word socialism. And some are easily led by grand promises by socialist politicians.

[emmaverybo]

23. Excellent, your last two sentences. Yes!

[Autumn]

5. I found this on act. tv. I thought it was a cute and simple explanation of socialism and

points where the different ones meet.

[Laelth]

10. +1 n/t

-Laelth

[rurallib]

12. Thank you and Autumn for these visual aids.

[Laelth]

13. You're quite welcome. n/t

-Laelth

[wnylib]

22. This is a good explanation.

But how many people would it reach. How many would get the points being made?

I know people who are Democrsts and consider themselves liberal. They are professionals, with good educations and incomes. They strongly reject the word socialism. They also resent the idea of social democracy, even when they understand the term. To them, it means being penalized for their success and being made to support less successful people.

How would Sanders win over tbose people?

[JudyM]

27. User friendly mini-overview, thanks for posting it.

[BigmanPigman]

6. Denmark's not a Socialist country, they are

a "market economy" said their country's PM.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/1287548947

Most Americans like socialism but they don't know it. They have been brainwashed for generations to think "socialism" is a 4 letter word yet they like what it provides for them. Americans are very ignorant. Many didn't even know that Obamacare was the same as the ACA until it was being taken away from them in 2017 and they called Congress in huge numbers.

[Laelth]

7. Agreed. The United States isn't a socialist country, either.

And we're not going to be. Even if Bernie Sanders were to accomplish all of his goals, we'd still be a capitalist (but a liberal capitalist) country. The point of this thread is to suggest that Republican attacks of "socialism" are bogus. Whenever we try to do something liberal, as Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren are proposing, we're accused of being "socialists." That's nonsesne, and Truman explains why that's nonsense above.

Thank you for the response.



-Laelth

[mathematic]

8. Those things aren't called socialist by socialists.

(Arguably with the exception of unions, where opinions are mixed).

Why do people keep trying to convince me that socialists don't exist?

Socialists aren't liberals. Has anybody actually read anything by actual socialists, contemporary or otherwise? Socialists hate liberals. As a marketing exercise and political tactic they try to paint themselves as "super liberals" (eg, co-opting the label "progressive" ) but their real agenda is vehemently anti-liberal.

[Laelth]

9. You are exactly right.

Those things aren't socialist; they're liberal ... capitalist and liberal. I am proud to be a member of America's liberal party, the Democratic Party, but none of us (none that I have ever met) is truly a socialist.

Well said.



-Laelth

[burrowowl]

11. Kick

[kwolf68]

14. Who cares

They called Bill Clinton a socialist. Shit, if Amy won the nomination they'd call her a socialist. The word is just a cliche' for anyone NOT far right.

[Laelth]

15. Precisely. n/t

-Laelth

[lees1975]

16. Venezuela is what we will get if Trump is re-elected

https://nuntiatum.home.blog/2020/02/24/think-scandinavia-not-venezuela/

[Sloumeau]

17. There is a difference between being a socialist, and being in favor of socialistic programs.

In addition, how much a person is in favor of various Socialistic programs depends upon a number of things, such as whether or not that program will raise a person's taxes. You might recall that in 2010, Barack Obama implemented the Socialist program known as the Affordable Care Act. You might also recall that later that same year, Democrats lost a huge number of House seats due to the backlash to that program. To say that "Americans love Socialism", as in they love all Socialism all the time, is simply not true. It depends upon the program, and it depends upon what people believe about that program. In addition, FDR never called himself a Socialist, and Truman never called himself a Socialist. No Democratic President has ever called himself a Socialist.

[Laelth]

18. It depends, mostly, upon how long that "socialist" program has been American law.

The great Mark Shields was fond of saying, "A conservative is a person who approves of liberal policy 20 years after it becomes law." Naturally, the ACA was opposed immediately after it became law. Now it's protections are so ingrained in the psyche of the American people that the Republican Party couldn't get rid of its provisions even if they had the power to do so.

So shall it be with whatever "socialist" programs Bernie Sanders or another American President passes into law.

-Laelth

[Sloumeau]

19. That is true, which is exactly my point.

For someone to say "America Love Socialism" implies that all Americans always love all Socialism. That is simply not true. In reality, it depends on the program; it depends on how well the program work; it depends upon how much the program costs, and it depends upon how long the program has been around.

[budkin]

21. EXACTLY

It's time we took control of the word and made it acceptable. Much like "liberal."

[pampango]

28. Well said. The left spends way too much time running in fear from conservative' latest 'dirty word'

‘Liberal’, ‘socialist’, ‘open borders’, ‘baby killers’, ‘globalists’, etc. have all been epithets used by the right to scare the left.

Rather than run on a platform of issues, policies and programs, we get hung up on the latest ‘dirty word’ manufacturered by the GOP.

[moondust]

24. Definitions change.

Often from one person to the next. Propagandists make up their own definitions, as Harry points out. The Internet has exacerbated the problem.

Here's an example of how meaningless labels can be:

Vladimir Zhirinovsky...is a Russian politician and leader of the Liberal Democratic Party of Russia. He is fiercely nationalist and has been described as "a showman of Russian politics, blending populist and nationalist rhetoric, anti-Western invective and a brash, confrontational style".[1] His views have been described as fascist.

Watch what they do, not what they say--especially during this campaign involving a pathological liar who has told more than 16,000 lies as "pResident" and has already called Bernie Sanders a communist.

[0rganism]

25. looks like we're going to be talking a lot more about dat naughty ol S word...

so maybe it'd be worth watching this:

the discussion of "state capitalism" is especially interesting.

[MAMMAG8R]

29. Do yourself a favor and listen to this ear candy

|

[Laelth]

30. I wasn't amused. n/t

-Laelth