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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI'd like someone to tell me how it is possible to be a liberal and not support striking teachers.
I don't understand that.
I am hoping to get an actual conversation going here, not a flame war.
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lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)As a liberal, I feel that it's generally best for the public to hire people directly to fulfill our social needs.
But what that does is puts me in the role of employer. It is in my interest to get my needs fulfilled in a cost-effective way.
I'm not taking sides on the Chicago teacher's strike because a) I don't know all the competing issues and b) I'm not a stakeholder (I'm not from Chicago).
When the UAW strikes against GM, it's easy to pick a side. When public employees strike against their employer (me), it's more ambiguous. I have to evaluate their grievance to decide if their strike is worthy of support.
forthemiddle
(1,381 posts)Rightly, or wrongly, during tough economic times people see teachers with good benefits, good pay, and pretty stable jobs (I know that isn't the case as much anymore), and can't understand how the teachers can be complaining while they themselves are unemployed, underemployed, or have no benefits at all. As you said, the taxpayers (or employers) are doing their best just to get by.
That does not make it right, but rather understandable that many are not behind the teachers.
I saw it in Wisconsin with the GOP spin machine going full force. The public perception of teachers in my state has changed, and sad to say, for most of the public, it isn't in a good way. The GOP effectively painted them as having it easy, while the taxpayers paid the bills.
Walker won the recall, and even if it was because the majority doesn't like recalls, they still sent the message that public unions will NEVER be in control again, at least here.
I think public unions influence is a thing of the past. Don't like it, but it is the reality.
Even on this board we can not get a unified voice.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)
Freddie Stubbs
(29,853 posts)
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014226072
September 11, 2012 at 7:07 pm
Striking Chicago teachers get support from parents
By Don Babwin
Associated Press
Chicago — As Chicago teachers walked the picket lines for a second day, they were joined by many of the very people who are most inconvenienced by their walkout: the parents who must now scramble to find a place for children to pass the time or for babysitters.
Mothers and fathers — some with their kids in tow — are marching with the teachers. Other parents are honking their encouragement from cars or planting yard signs that announce their support in English and Spanish.
Unions are still hallowed organizations in Chicago, and the teachers union holds a special place of honor in many households where children often grow up to join the same police, firefighter or trade unions as their parents and grandparents.
"I'm going to stay strong, behind the teachers," said the Rev. Michael Grant, who joined teachers on the picket line Tuesday. "My son says he's proud, 'You are supporting my teacher.'"
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)Obviously he is very concerned about this issue!
pampango
(24,692 posts)the republican party plays that politics of "fear and resentment" up precisely to divide workers.
It successfully (unfortunately) has convinced too many people that they should want to drag workers with decent pay and benefits down rather than protect them in the expectation that will make it easier for them to achieve that in the future.
As you say that is the "GOP spin machine going full force".
MichiganVote
(21,086 posts)And its not any easier for them. They have families too.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)We treat teachers like shit in America and then we tell them they can't strike. Perhaps they should just quit and we can educate our own kids at home. America needs to be taught a hard lesson about the value of teachers.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)The value of a unit of labor is the price at which someone qualified will do it.
Improving the employment situation can't occur one profession/trade at a time.
If they all just quit, then America will learn a hard lesson... provided a new crop of teachers don't simply take their place at a lower pay rate. Creeping credentialism suggests that the supply of labor for teaching jobs is greater than the number of teaching positions available. Colleges produce hundreds of thousands of educators each year, many of whom never actually get the opportunity to teach.
If I were a citizen of Chicago, I'd support their strike if I could be convinced that the goal is improved education or that the existing contract jeopardizes our ability to recruit teachers. That isn't apparent from a cursory review.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)Starving teachers don't teach well. The system will simply collapse, which will force reform. Or y'all can home-school.
Jeez, we're trying to drive our teachers like Chinese factory workers now.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)40% of CPS teachers choose, and can afford, to send their kids to private schools.
The hyperbole is flowing knee deep.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)Let me repeat: teachers are worth WELL over $76K.
BTW you do know that they buy their own stuff for school, right? School supplies and such?
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Labor is worth the price someone qualified is willing to sell it.
Everyone thinks their skillset and the social importance of their job makes their labor infinitely valuable.
There are good arguments that CPS teachers are worth less than the average teacher.
You DO know CPS teachers do not pay SS tax, right?
WinniSkipper
(363 posts)Which seems to be the central issue to this mess (evaluations)
eomer
(3,845 posts)We can choose to pay public employees more than the market rate and that's what we should do in an economy like this. That way the public jobs we provide will result in both the direct service of educating our children and also the indirect benefits of stimulating the economy and raising the market rates for salaries and benefits. And a bonus - we will entice the best people if we're paying above market.
We don't have to buy into the market as the solution for everything - it isn't.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)We can choose to pay public employees more than the market rate, but we won't, and if the purpose of public employment is doing the public's work, shouldn't.
In a finite pool of money, the public can afford to hire 100 teachers, or 86 of them after giving a 16% raise.
eomer
(3,845 posts)Last edited Wed Sep 12, 2012, 08:11 PM - Edit history (1)
There is no problem if we get back to significant taxation of the wealthy. Especially in this economy with such a huge wealth disparity, if we tax the wealthy and pay that money to teachers, the result will be wresting away hoarded wealth and putting it back to work in the economy. Everyone will benefit, except for the obscenely wealthy who won't actually be harmed because it's impossible for them to spend what they've got anyway.
And there isn't a finite pool of money -- we have a sovereign currency. But even if there was, there's plenty available if we tax the wealthy.
porphyrian
(18,530 posts)Tell that to Florida.
This strike is not about money, it's really a political strike against the corporate model education policy of privatization.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)If the solution is all about money, then so was the problem.
tama
(9,137 posts)So what's the point of any of this, people are defeated no matter what and resistance is futile, what else is on TeeeVeee? BTW have trees been nasty to you or why do you hate them, lumberjack?
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)
obamanut2012
(26,080 posts)That mindset is the bane of public employees.
And, public employees have a right to strike.
Iris
(15,659 posts)Public employees are not indentured servants. They are also taxpayers just like anyone else.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)And yes. Public employees have a right to strike. But don't confuse yourself; the managers they are striking against are the public.
Chorophyll
(5,179 posts)My son's teachers answer to a whole lot of people who aren't me. Department heads, the principal, the school district administrators, and the superintendent. I don't set their hours, I don't tell them when they can have a cup of coffee, I don't tell them what or how to teach. I applaud the extraordinary patience they show by being trapped in a building with all of our kids all day.
I pay my taxes to federal, state, and local governments, and expect them to see to it that public employees are paid well and treated fairly.
I'm really appalled that so many people see public workers as their own employees. Seriously. Appalled.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Me
The school board
The superintendent
The principals
The staff
Teachers serve at the superintendent's pleasure, who in turn serves at the school board's pleasure, who in turn serve at my pleasure.
To see it any other way fails civics 101, abdicates citizenship, and leads to unaccountable and shitty public policy.
If that oversight role is a insufficiently fun, then by all means hire Halliburton.
I strongly support unions ability to collectively bargain, but don't confuse yourself, they're bargaining with the citizens of Chicago, only a small percentage of whom make what they do, not some faceless corporation.
Javaman
(62,530 posts)happily it still doesn't work completely that way.
I pay taxes. my taxes go to supporting my school district. However, I don't set policy or contracts.
That is for the union and the school district to hammer out.
as a result, if they aren't able to agree, the teachers have every right to strike regardless of whether or not I agree.
See how it works, mr. civics 101?
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Uh, you.
Javaman
(62,530 posts)we elect and hire people to run the district.
And it's that trust that they run it properly. if not then the teachers strike.
are you really that obtuse?
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)The average Illinois student scores a 21 on the ACT test. Out of a possible score of 36, that's not very good. Why? It is worth noting that Southern Illinois University gave the test to Chicago teachers and found that their average score was 19.
"Think of the kids" is a smokescreen. After giving the CPS teachers a 16% raise and providing additional protection to the incompetent ones, class sizes will rise, led by the same teachers who are responsible for the current poor student outcomes.
One last thing; nearly 40% of Chicago teachers send their kids to private schools... and can afford it.
Javaman
(62,530 posts)Then you assume that because teachers don't strike that the district is being run properly?
Holy cow, I can't even try and define the grandiose assumption and bizarre assertion you make with that comment, which, I might add, negates anything you say after it, Because of it's complete an non-sequitur value, it makes zero sense in any relation to what we were discussing.
As I stated before, you are obtuse and it appears as if you are intentionally so.
We're done. You are arguing something for some reason I have no idea why and it also appears as if you have some odd ax to grind.
good day.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)And it's that trust that they run it properly. if not then the teachers strike.
Your benchmark of whether you should pay attention to what your school board is doing is whether the teachers are striking.
If they get their 16% pay raise and immunity from termination for incompetence, the strike ends, and education of students must once again be hunky-dory.
Javaman
(62,530 posts)Obtuse is obtuse.
We're done.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Citizenship means that you are on the other side of the negotiation table from the people who provide public services.
Javaman
(62,530 posts)however, if you enjoy spewing and talking to yourself, have at it. Everyone needs a hobby.
Obtuse.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)3rd time's a charm.
I'm done too... now that I've got the last word. Unless you tell me "you're done" a fourth time, in which case I shall taunt you again.
Redundant.
Javaman
(62,530 posts)yup still done.
word.
I can go on all day. and it has nothing to do with getting in the last word.
annoying people is one of my hobbies. 
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)But I remind my teachers and students from time to time that students are at the top or center.
Thus, in order of importance (but not power):
students
teachers
parents/guardians/the community
low level admins
principal
super
county super
state super
duncan
We serve the students, not the parents.
I've met a few parents who shouldn't, IMHO, have ANY power in the educational process.
Chorophyll
(5,179 posts)Most of us on this site support public unions. But what good is a union if it exists in name only? Do we support their right to strike until they actually use it? Or are teachers just less entitled to fight for themselves than other public employees?
If you really feel that you employ the teachers, then you're "management." You do understand that public school teachers are taxpayers too, right? And that their own children have teachers?
As a progressive, I tend to support striking workers. But I guess that makes me old-school. I'm really surprised by the "outraged taxpayer" attitude I'm seeing here on DU.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Those Public sector unions bargain with representatives of the public: us. I expect those representatives to seek the best possible deal.
A public sector union that wants my support in their strike must convince me that my interests are aligned with theirs, or that the risks of not accepting their demands outweigh the costs.
In the case of CPS teachers, it's not at all obvious that;
a) the education of students will be meaningfully harmed by closing schools temporarily.
b) student outcomes will be improved by protecting incompetent teachers and giving them a 16% raise.
c) education would be significantly harmed by bringing in new teachers at the existing pay rate.
If 40% of CPS teachers couldn't afford to send their own kids to private school, they might have some incentive to improve.
Chorophyll
(5,179 posts)Truly.
You appear to be laying all of the blame for the problems of an enormous public school system at the feet of the teachers. I should think that, as a person with a high post count on a Democratic site, you might take into account some of the other problems faced by large urban school districts in 2012.
In my opinion, no public school teacher should have to deal with overcrowded classrooms, a pitiful lack of resources (resources cut severely over the course of two successive Bush administrations and the resulting financial crisis), the dramatic increase of poverty among children, children whose parents are unable or unwilling to be involved in their children's education... I mean, I could keep going.
But you go ahead with your arrogant fantasy "pecking order." Next time I have a problem with *anything*, I'll call you. (Since you're at the top of the pecking order and all.)
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Yet, their outcomes are much worse than average and teacher pay is much higher than average. Small classes led by highly paid teachers is obviously no panacea.
http://www.cps.edu/about_cps/at-a-glance/pages/stats_and_facts.aspx
Further, the excuse for the poor outcomes disappears as soon as discussion turns to the need for a double-digit raise; in that discussion, the poverty of the community they serve is irrelevant.
And yes. Citizens are at the top of the pecking order in a democracy/republic. Once you realize that, you won't need to call me because you'll understand that it's your job to use your own judgment instead of lazily relying upon comforting stereotypes.
Iris
(15,659 posts)Chorophyll
(5,179 posts)I walked away and thought about that "pecking order" comment and my head nearly exploded. But I was too stressed out to wade back in. I'm thinking I might right now...
Iris
(15,659 posts)on a forum that is supposed to be based on democratic values.
Also, there seems to be something missing in this line of reasoning. The teachers ARE "me" as well. They are taxpayers and they vote, so, if you want to go along with the idea that each citizen is a "boss" then I guess those teachers are their own bosses.
Chorophyll
(5,179 posts)They're their own pecking order! God bless America. 
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Yes, you are "Taking a side." You are stating that private citizens are your servants and should stab themselves in their self-interest to save you some money.
You are not their employer. By this logic you're using, you're the "employer" of those UAW workers, since you've bought their car and have so "Employed" them... and this apparently gives you sovereign rights to pass judgement on whether they should be "allowed" to have benefits, or if they should have to sacrifice for your benefit.
You aren't their employer, but you ARE quite a smug little proto-fascist.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)...then you are a piss-poor excuse for a citizen.
Your job as a citizen (not simply "voter" or "taxpayer" is holding accountable the people you elect to manage your public affairs. If they are simply acquiescing to every demand of every employee, they are NOT doing their jobs.
The teachers are collectively bargaining with you, over very important issues.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)The teachers are striking because they aren't allowed to educate the students properly. How does that sit with you?
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Unfortunately none of the remaining contract negotiation issues (except perhaps air conditioning) can be defended on those grounds.
It's all about pay, hiring polices and performance evaluations.
Separating pay and continued employment from academic achievement of the students doesn't sit well with me at all. I think principals SHOULD be able to terminate bad teachers - THAT is the measure of how important I think it is.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)As such, they are sitting on the opposite side of the negotiation table during negotiations with other public sector unions.
For people who support unions, I think there's a massive misunderstanding of their fundamental purpose. The point of a union is collective bargaining; members of the union have more power to effect change in their employers than they do individually.
Collective action doesn't mean guaranteed win, nor does it mean righteous. Also when the public is in the employer role on the other side of the negotiation table, it is appropriate to decide whether the public believes they are getting their money's worth and to reject unfair demands.
My feeling is that this strike will cause more privatization, not less.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)Standing up for better pay or working conditions will cause more privatization. Ergo the victim is wrong because harsher tactics will be used against them to ensure future compliance.
Funny, that's the same argument the Right uses to justify offshoring.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)They called the strike. They're not victims, they are using what leverage they have to get more money and more security.
The problem is that they are overplaying their hand. It's not a matter of ensuring compliance, it's a matter of a community trying in vain to improve education using the few avenues left available to them.
It would suck to be a citizen of Chicago. On the one hand are public teachers who aren't getting the job done and reject any accountability for it, and on the other is Rahm Emmanuel with his privatization snake oil.
Funny thing is that 40% of those public school teachers have bought the snake oil for their own kids.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)You oppose the strike because.... of a whole host of baseless, unfounded, unsubstantiated corporate propaganda that you're echoing.
There's no point in refuting what you say because none of it has basis in fact.
Edited to add: As Egalitarian thug said in post #10, "Do you know why a crab bucket doesn't need a lid?"
GodlessBiker
(6,314 posts)and you work two jobs, and are a single parent, and the bills are piling up, and on Saturdays you take your kids to community organizing projects to give them a good understanding of street justice, and on Sunday they visit their grandparents which gives you a little free time to yourself to do some food shopping and house cleaning, and maybe, at the end of the day, you just want the teachers to go back to work.
Sometimes the burdens in life overcome any political agenda. You just want and need your kids to go to school.
It's just a thought.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)You just wrote the answer.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)obamanut2012
(26,080 posts)
boppers
(16,588 posts)Can you explain this crab-bucket-lid thing to those who did not grow up near large bodies of water?
It's very much a geographically oriented simile.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)boppers
(16,588 posts)So, not like ants that build bridges on each other's backs, rather, the inverse.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)you stroll down the beach, digging the little morsels up, you throw them into the pail. Now at first the sides are too steep for them to crawl out, but as your collection grows they begin to crawl on top of each other trying to get out, but every time one reaches the top of the pail, the other crabs grab it and drag it back down into the pail with them.
That was, to me, what the reply was saying. Teachers might have it better than me, so rather than demanding better for myself, make it worse for them.
We're the crabs, the parasites are the crabbers, and their rigged system is the pail.
obamanut2012
(26,080 posts)They know this in Europe, and know how to use this to strengthen unions. In this country, fellow workers want to qualify unions' rights.
GodlessBiker
(6,314 posts)how someone dealing with the complexities and drugeries of life, and trying to find the right path for themselves and their children, who works hard and whose opportunities are limited by powerful interests, who understands injustice when she has the time to consider and participate in political conversations and protests, how someone like that might care more about their children going to school tomorrow than the interests of teachers.
Not everyone sees this struggle as a politically, economically, and sociologically astute person might see it. People can be liberals, vote for liberals, and still have a more limited vision because of the circumstances in that person's life. Not everyone is strong. We are human. We all react to life's pressures in different ways.
YvonneCa
(10,117 posts)...schools were not available to parents who need them because teachers had reached their breaking point, not just in Chicago but elsewhere, then what do these parents do? What do their children do?
This isn't only about the interests of teachers. This is about the continuance of a public school system in this country. Is that important?
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)are growing up in right now.
I know lots of people with three and more kids and guess what, when something is important enough, as this is, they find a way to support those who have the guts to stand up for them and future generations.
'Political agenda'. Yes, that IS what this is about, it's about the political agenda of the Far Right in this country who have been working for decades to destroy the Public Schools and to privatize all public funds so they and their buddies can get their greedy hands on those funds, dip into them and remove as much as possible for profit, and deprive the students of that money which should be going to their educational needs.
YvonneCa
(10,117 posts)MichiganVote
(21,086 posts)To be a parent is to expect to give up your time to them. They don't raise themselves. Why pick on Teachers for choices you made in your life?
GodlessBiker
(6,314 posts)We all understand social struggles equally well. None of us need to be nurtured along to understand the interconnectedness of things or how those in power seek to divide working-class people. Anyone who doesn't understand this now, right now, completely, couldn't possibly call themselves a liberal.
The OP asked for how a liberal could possibly not support the striking teachers. I suggested that there might be hard working people out there, burdened with the details of life, who absolutely consider themselves liberal, but who want their children to go to school tomorrow and just cannot understand why that cannot happen. Life is gray. People are in different stages of political development. These people are on our side, they just need to be brought along. Denigrating them or calling them out doesn't help that process.
randome
(34,845 posts)
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)But the fact of the matter is that the poster you are responding has mainly made the argument that people might be against the strike because they are not informed. Not a good argument.
randome
(34,845 posts)I do support air conditioning in all schools. What is so difficult to understand about that?
I started on this thread by saying, absent evidence to the contrary, I support the union. But the anti-Democratic, echo chamber-like responses to those who have critical thinking skills is sure making that position difficult to uphold.
boppers
(16,588 posts)People are "not informed" about a vast majority of the world around them, which helps to explain a great number of their opinions.
randome
(34,845 posts)I can be swayed by data. But I sure as hell distrust anyone trying to 'sell' me something without cogent arguments.
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)boppers
(16,588 posts)The answer was "lack of information or misinformed".
That's a perfectly normal reason for "why". Until we have some system to automagically inform everyone, about everything, all the time, it's entirely reasonable to expect results that reflect varying degrees of information.
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)If you choose a position against the right to strike and it is because you don't know what you are talking about, you are not being a liberal.
boppers
(16,588 posts)Interesting purity test.
Response to boppers (Reply #195)
Hissyspit This message was self-deleted by its author.
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)Figure it out.
boppers
(16,588 posts)"I'd like someone to tell me how it is possible to be a liberal and not support striking teachers."
A simple answer was offered: Ignorance.
eomer
(3,845 posts)... if you don't support striking teachers out of ignorance.
boppers
(16,588 posts)Seriously?
"Ha ha it's funny that I'm an narrow minded bigot" is now a source of rebuttal?
eomer
(3,845 posts)You may not be a liberal if out of ignorance you don't support a teachers' strike. I'm going to stick with that, sounds correct to me.
YvonneCa
(10,117 posts)...was a young mom and a beginning teacher, I knew nothing. I was pretty naive. It took a life's experience in both jobs for me to learn what the issues really are and how they are connected.
DU is a great place to discuss and learn. I hope you continue to participate.
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)kctim
(3,575 posts)I find this "qualification" thing to be very interesting.
Why do liberals/progressives believe liberals/progressives must all think and believe in lock-step on every issue?
"Liberal/progressive" on everything but the 2nd Amendment? You're a Republican. Pro-choice with unions? You're a Republican. Don't like high taxes? You're a Republican. Like private health insurance? You're a Republican.
The vast majority of Americans hold a liberal view on some issues, a moderate view on other issues and a conservative view on other issues. Why is it that someone must hold only "liberal/progressive" views on EVERYTHING for you all not to consider them Republican?
Stinky The Clown
(67,808 posts)lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)For some people life is a venn diagram with their own views in the central layer of overlap, and labeled using a term that they consider "virtue". Everyone whose views are not entirely defined within that area are thus "not virtuous", regardless of the degree of overlap.
The short answer to Stinky's question is; Public employees work for us. It is reasonable necessary to not support their strike if you feel that their demands are unjust. That's one of our jobs as citizens.
limpyhobbler
(8,244 posts)Maybe liberals don't really support labor as much as people think. What have the liberals done for labor lately?
renie408
(9,854 posts)Or conservatives, for that matter.
People strike for different reasons and sometimes I agree with the strikers and sometimes I don't. Frankly, I am not familiar enough with the city of Chicago's ability to pay the demands of the teachers to determine for myself whether I think the teachers are being reasonable in said demands. So, as it stands, I lean towards the teachers, but would not consider myself knowledgeable enough to take a side.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)around here, but to be liberal is to put people before profits (money).
Don't forget the cookie "joke"...
Edit: Should have been cookie. "A wage slave, a union member, and a rich guy are sitting around the table talking economics. The waiter brings over a dozen cookies for them to munch. The rich guy takes 11 of them, leans over and says to the wage slave, "watch it buddy, that guy's trying to steal your cookie".
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Public employees do the work that society needs, and the compensation is set by that society. There aren't any profits save the benefit that all of society derives from education.
It's one of your jobs as a citizen to elect people to set appropriate compensation in exchange for the work we need done.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)with education and the rest of the public sphere.
That's the underlying issue in the strike.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)But union leaders say there continues to be an array of differences, including benefits, raises based on experience level, the lack of air-conditioning in classrooms and training days for teachers. The school system faces what is projected to be a $1 billion deficit in the system’s operating budget next year.
Teacher evaluations, however, appear to be the most difficult issue to resolve.
While union leaders say they accept that some portion of teacher evaluations will be tethered to student test scores — they believe that the schools’ current proposal would push the equation out of balance.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/12/education/talks-to-continue-in-chicago-teachers-strike.html?pagewanted=all
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)The "raise" includes making up for already-contracted raises that were rescinded last year.
The "raises based on experience" = keeping the present system of step raises v. moving to a "merit" system favored by the privatizers.
The "benefits" = keeping *already-contracted* benefits.
obamanut2012
(26,080 posts)Along with refusing to give teachers and students such basics as textbooks and safe schools.
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)I think they, as a whole, are clearly underpaid. My concern is with the lack of accountability you see in many districts. As I pointed out downthread, examples like this are unacceptable:
http://atlanta.cbslocal.com/2012/08/28/school-teacher-helps-students-cheat-because-she-says-theyre-dumb-as-hell/
I think it is disgusting that it is apparently a newspapers responsibility to identify as many as 180 teachers who fail at their job (and teaching my kid to cheat on a test is a GROSS failure).
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)Out of curiousity, do you have a problem with that?
What do you think administrators in charter schools are paid?
Moskowitz, who makes no secret of her desire to create 40 charter schools across the city and run for mayor some day, raked in $371,000 in salaries in the 2006-2007 school year from organizations connected to her four schools, tax records show.
Those schools, Harlem Success Academy 1, 2, 3 and 4, have an enrollment of about 1,000 pupils, from kindergarten to third grade.
http://articles.nydailynews.com/2009-02-26/local/17916998_1_charter-schools-salaries-eva-moskowitz
Your tax dollars at work in NYC.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Out of curiosity, do you think that CPS is unjust by adding only 16% to that $92,000 annual figure?
Did you know that there are more than 6700 retired Chicago teachers who bring home more than $100,000 in teacher pensions?
The median pay for all workers in Chicago is about $58,000 or $1116 weekly. The average CPS teacher makes $75,000 annually or $1943 weekly (38.6 weeks). The average retired CPS teacher makes $41,600 annually in pension.
Public sentiment in Chicago is not supportive of the strike. Both newspapers are against it, so Obama needs to stay as far away as possible.
Most of this might be defensible if the result was quality education, but the CPS outcomes are terrible, and the union is adamantly blocking any attempt to measure their effectiveness in any way.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)and the 'make-up' for previously contracted raises that were rescinded.
As we know by taking the 'average' of my pay + bill gates', averages are not a reliable guide to what the 'average' worker actually gets. That 'average' also includes overtime, extra duties, and is right-skewed by proportion of long-timers in the system.
Both newspapers are no guide to what 'public sentiment' about the strike is. The papers represent their owners.
The trib, for example, was the long-time mouthpiece of the mccormick family (mccormick reaper/international harvester) and was sold in 2007 to sam zell's tribune company, $3 billion in revenues, also owns the LA Times.
The union is not blocking any attempt to measure their effectiveness in any way. They are blocking an attempt to measure their effectiveness *mainly* by student test scores in a district that is overwhelmingly poor & minority.
privatized schools are what are being created. thus far, they cost as much or more as public schools (albeit more of the money goes to private players, less to teachers & students), & the results are no better.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Let's talk about him or her.
If the average teacher salary is remarkably different from the median teacher salary, then we need to have a similar conversation.
One last thing; if the district is overwhelmingly poor, minority... and poorly educated... perhaps they're having a hard time paying six figure pensions to retired teachers.
The emergence of privatized schools is largely symptomatic of a perception (or reality in the case of Chicago) of subpar public school performance.
The district and their employees are accountable to the public for performance and for prudent stewardship of tax dollars. I find it hard to argue that they are succeeding on either account.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)by the fact that a significant percent of chicago's teaching staff are long-timers, which means higher salaries.
Say 1/3 are first year (50), 1/3 5 year (60) and 1/3 20 year (90), average = 67, which is actually higher than 2/3 of the staff make.
So the 'average' isn't 'typical'.
boppers
(16,588 posts)Here's one:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-teacher-strike-expected-to-go-into-2nd-day-20120910,0,4057997.story
Average of 13.7 years experience, average pay of $71,200.
Other citations are obviously needed to accurately characterize the distribution. (yes, I'm a wikipedian)
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)And here's a link to the base salary of every CPS employee.
http://www.cps.edu/About_CPS/At-a-glance/Documents/EmployeePositionRoster_07112012.pdf
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)of averages:
1/3 = 1 years experience = $50
1/3 = 5 years experience = $60
1/3 = 20 years experience = $90
"Average"= 8.6 years experience = $66.6, yet MOST (2/3) of the staff have less than 8 years of experience and make less than $66.6.
In other words, averages don't tell us anything about the typical/average teacher.
fascisthunter
(29,381 posts)if if the poster acts as if it did, maybe others will somehow believe the believer.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Fine. I posted a pdf of the pay of each and every employee in the district. A cursory review suggests that there aren't a great many outliers.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)initiation of collective bargaining to salary issues, right?
iow, the only way teachers or others can bargain on other issues is to bring a salary issue to the table.
This negotiation (which has been going on since last year) isn't taking so long because of salary issues. It's because rahm won't budge on evalutions, merit pay & a bunch of other stuff.
so although i know you love to repeat the 'overpaid teachers' talking points, it's basically irrelevant to what's going on.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)If the issues which are legally relevant to a strike are irrelevant to them personally, then why strike? If they're prohibited from striking over charter schools or global warming or whatever, then why are they demanding raises and immunity from termination?
Sometimes, it's safe to conclude that what people demand is what they really want.
On the topic of limiting strikes called for other reasons than your own tangible working conditions, I agree with the law. What happens when the police strike because they want a bigger piece of the budget pie than the fire department? Strking because a public defender is appointed to defend a cop killer? A city quickly becomes ungovernable.
They are doing themselves long term harm, as well as bringing harm to other public sector unions.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)And as for your list, i'm not going to look through 700 pages, but I looked through the first 11. You see over there on the right where it says "union affiliation"?
The first two pages, most of those are "none," "operating engineers," or "public service employees union". Those are administrators and staff, not teachers.
In the first 11 pages there are exactly SEVEN CTU members. Their salaries are:
52, 91, 94, 78, 43, 43, 43. Average = $63K.
I don't believe you went through 700 pages and pulled out the teachers, and now know what the 'typical' teacher makes. I just don't believe you. Nice try.
That's a list of ALL EMPLOYEES. Not all teachers.
And another thing you should know about rahm -- despite his cries of poverty, he's ADDED overhead -- lots of new "specialists of this and that" ("recess specialist" eg) whose job is to take over and 'manage' things teachers used to do (& incidentally to 'manage' the teachers).
He added a floor of lawyers and a new public relations department. He's added all sorts of crap. Plenty of $$$$$ for bureaucrats, while laying off teachers.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)They'll get their 16% raise and get increased immunity from individual termination.
... and due to budget pressure, school privatization will accelerate. Schools will close, CPS teachers will retire and the schools will reopen as private schools, to which the remaining CPS teachers will send their kids.
The union is playing a role in their own obsolescence, and I think it's tragic.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)it's not the union's position, it's rahm's.
the union won't accept any raise or no raise unless their other demands are met.
and their other demands don;t include "INCREASED IMMUNITY FROM TERMINATION".
I guess you didn't read my rant about the RAFTS of 6-figure bureaucrats rahm has added since he became mayor.
AN ENTIRE PUBLIC RELATIONS DEPARTMENT.
A FLOOR OF LAWYERS.
RECESS SPECIALISTS. A RAFT OF 'SPECIALISTS' WHOSE JOB IS TO 'MANAGE' TEACHERS AND SPY ON THEM.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Eventually, the union and the district will agree on a contract, and none of the high-minded demands postulated here (and only here) will be a part of it.
Teachers will get a 16% raise, concessions for hirebacks of laid off workers and veto authority over who gets fired.
Both sides will declare it "a victory for the kids" and happily go back to work.
The teachers will go back to work churning out illiterate graduates, and the school district will go back to work privatizing education.
It won't actually be a victory for kids.
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/09/10/what-are-key-issues-in-chicago-public-school-strike/
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)a 16% raise.
that's not what they want.
and i don't give a damn what the corporate propagandist CNN says.
btw, why do i see you in other threads saying you support the teachers?
what kind of games are you playing here?
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)I support unions, I support public employees and I support teachers.
In most places in this country teachers do a better job and serve more prosperous communities, yet they get paid less, and they have greater accountability.
The practical effect of THIS strike is to further alienate voters from public unions, increase class sizes in Chicago, prevent any connection between educational outcomes and teacher pay/retention/discipline and hasten migration to private schools.
All because Rahm Emmanuel is an asshole.
The strike won't last long. By next wednesday, we'll see if I'm right.
If I've posted something which makes my views ambiguous, I'd appreciate a link.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)ambiguous.
it's funny that you say this strike is alienating the public when polls say 47% of chicagoans support, 39% oppose, the rest undecided.
class sizes are one of the issues on the table.
'prevent any connection between outcomes & pay/retention/discipline' = your own invention.
you don't support the strike, & you're just making stuff up + spreading the "teachers make too much money" meme.
you forgot to add this in your posts, btw:
The Employee Position File shows the base salaries of CPS employees, but does not reflect the 15 unpaid holidays, furlough and shutdown days that have being mandated for all non-union CPS employees in 2010 and 2011. Those days amount to an approximately 6 percent salary reduction. In 2009, non-union employees took 6 unpaid days.
http://www.cps.edu/About_CPS/Financial_information/Pages/EmployeePositionFiles.aspx
so that top salary of $94K for the phd with 20 years in is actually $88K.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)all those who wanted to bust teacher unions...
If you take away collective bargaining rights, you inevitably create problems... So, when Senate Bill 7 created a new threshold for strike authorization and limited the right to strike to salary and benefits, it didn’t take being a genius to have predicted a strike in Chicago.
Both sides even say that they are close to an agreement on money issues. But the problem is that if the CTU leadership says okay to the salary and benefits that the board has offered then negotiations are over because the board can refuse to discuss evaluations, job assignments or class size. That’s the law.
So Jonah Edelman, the smart-ass boastful corporate school reformer, who thinks collective bargaining is the problem, created the very conditions that provoked a strike.
For a quarter of a century there hasn’t been a strike in Chicago.
Now we have Senate Bill 7 and we have a strike.
http://preaprez.wordpress.com/2012/09/11/jonahs-strike/
boppers
(16,588 posts)It's a source. Sources outrank hypothetical ideas.....
Such as any possible skewed math scenarios you, or I, can offer.
tama
(9,137 posts)is not representative of public sentiment. It's a propaganda tool for corporate interests.
50 000 people on the street is representative of public sentiment. Poll that shows people in Chicago trust the union more than the school council of corporate persons nominated by mayor is representative of public sentiment.
Privatizing schools for private profit IS the topic, as is unnecessary and harmful neoliberal bureaucracy of "measuring effectiveness".
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)right?
This appears to be the largest of dozens of major cheating scandals, unearthed across the country. The allegations point an ongoing problem for US education, which has developed an ever-increasing dependence on standardized tests.
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Education/2011/0705/America-s-biggest-teacher-and-principal-cheating-scandal-unfolds-in-Atlanta
When the system makes your jobs, funding and the very existence of your school dependent on standardized test results, people will cheat. That result is entirely predictable and in fact was predicted by critics of education deform.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)districts run amuck all across the nation, but the travesty called NCLB does nothing about that. District administrations do suck up an extraordinary amount of revenue and deliver nothing in return, but again, none of these schemes address that issue. The number of drop-outs is a global disgrace, but none of these con games has any plan or claim to lower them.
This is about one issue and one issue only, corporate thieves like Rahm want to get their hands on all that taxpayer money, period.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)
mmonk
(52,589 posts)Both parties are in the for profit camp. Big money, cronyism are the bywords for this generation.
MicaelS
(8,747 posts)With teachers when they were attending grades 1-12. Or else bad experiences as parents with teachers, and that colors their viewpoint.
For some, all it took was one bad teacher to make them hate going to school.
Imagine a dyed-in-the-wool, free -thinking Liberal kid being forced to attend a very religious school. Or a public school in a extremely Conservative area where they try to force Creationism and Religion into classes. Or a LGBT kid being denigrated in public school.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)there are some (too many) bad teachers. That has nothing to do with this issue, teachers unions, or the reasons for the strike.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)I don't think these teachers should be supported in their strike.
Chicago schools, until the Illinois legislature forced the issue with SB 7, had the shortest school day of all major cities in the nation. It took legislation to increase the school day from 5:45 minutes to 7 1/2 hours. (for high school)
Chicago teachers are among the highest paid in the nation, with the average salary being 76 k plus benefits.
Chicago's dropout rate is higher than the national average, too, nearly 40%.
Karen Lewis, head of the CTU, wants a 29% pay increase. She's also refused to participate in the CPS task force that's responsible for blueprinting the longer day.
This is about money, and retaining control....you will note other threads on this board about changing demographics of the teacher's union, etc... this is about retaining control when more and more children and parents are opting out of union-held schools.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021315059
So understand--the CTU cannot legally bargain over class size or the longer day, no matter what they claim they are striking for. All that's left is their own interests--tenure and salary. I have no problem with self-interest, but let's not pretend it's about the kids and better education, then.
Stinky The Clown
(67,808 posts)All strikes are about self-interest of one sort or another.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)regarding the strike and its goals.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,330 posts)... who had visions of saving the world by teaching in inner-city schools.
Every one of them threw up their hands and fled to suburbia. They were all very talented energetic teachers. A couple of them are Principals now.
It doesn't surprise me one little bit CPS has some of the highest paid teachers in the country. How else do you get people to work in that environment - and stick around?
The stories I heard would curl your toes.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)school day, and the 29% requested pay hike, I balk at thinking that this strike is wise at this time.
I had those visions, too. Then I smartened up and did my job. See, I wasn't hired to save the world. I was hired to teach. And not only did I find job satisfaction, but I had very appreciative students. I worked with kids who were adjudicated into care, with dual diagnoses.
So, nobody wanted my job. But I liked it.
tama
(9,137 posts)Under the anti-union laws it is true that they can "legally" bargain only for money. So they make the "official" money issue the pretext of the strike so they can strike and fight against the corporate model policies of privatization.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)passed by the elected legislators, just as ordinary citizens are.
If the strike is a "pretext" as you claim, then decertification of the union is legally permissible.
tama
(9,137 posts)by your undemocratic and misanthropic views of legitimity.
Zoeisright
(8,339 posts)The average salary for a Chicago teacher is NOT $76,000. That number includes administrator salaries. At any rate, so fucking what? Why is anyone angry at that number? Why aren't they demanding ALL teachers have an average salary that high?
My husband has been teaching for 8 years, and his salary (with a master's degree) is nowhere NEAR that number. His take home pay is only $2500 a month.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)teacher's salaries should be high.
But I think Karen Lewis asking for a 29% pay hike was delusional.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)The CPS website says that the average salary of teachers is $74,839 and the average salary of administrators is $120,659
http://www.cps.edu/about_cps/at-a-glance/pages/stats_and_facts.aspx
It also indicates that the student/teacher ratio in elementary schools is 20.0 and 24.6 in high school.
http://www.cps.edu/About_CPS/At-a-glance/Documents/EmployeePositionRoster_07112012.pdf
You can see if your husband is representative of of his peers.
boppers
(16,588 posts)Pension pay in?
Health care pay in?
Social Security?
Federal withholding?
PTO?
Can you give some insight on the "$70K Salary" numbers being floated around vs. the actual take home amounts?
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)
jeff47
(26,549 posts)There's several instances of you using the wrong statistical method. But the wrong numbers serve your political agenda.
porphyrian
(18,530 posts)Maybe they come from a "right to work" state that has no effective unions and they have nothing but the union-busting version of things to base their opinion on.
Maybe something happened to them in their lives that makes them distrustful of or angry towards unions or teachers.
Maybe they have some piece of information you don't that makes them less supportive.
Maybe the hardship caused by teachers striking due to kids is too much.
I don't know. I am liberal and support striking teachers.
Should we go around checking peoples' liberal papers, now? Maybe mandate a liberalism oath?
Why don't you directly ask the person in question.
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)I will get blasted for this, but there are issues with many of the public sector unions. For instance, look at this article from Atlanta:
http://atlanta.cbslocal.com/2012/08/28/school-teacher-helps-students-cheat-because-she-says-theyre-dumb-as-hell/
Sorry, but there is ZERO excuse for this teacher (and any of the 180 other teachers identified) to be "caught" by a newspaper. This should have been identified and dealt with by the school and the union. Sadly, there are examples of teacher's unions at best being apathetic in their oversight and at worst flat out hiding it to protect the jobs.
I think ALL of these jobs need representation to prevent lynch mobs from unfairly punishing teachers, but there also needs to be accountability for people who truly fail at their job. Sadly, that is not case in many instances.
I am a licensed CPA and recently saw the stats on the number of CPA's, Attorneys & Doctors who flat out lose their license due to failing in their responsibilities. Compared with the number of teachers in unions who lose their jobs, something is flat out screwed up from a purely statistical standpoint.
I don't claim to have the answer, but the status quo on teacher evaluations flat out is NOT working. I have no issue with the pay teachers are demanding but I cannot agree with job security for the sake of job security at all costs.
randome
(34,845 posts)We owe it to ourselves and our allies. The GOP does not have a lock on asshats.
I haven't delved into the specifics of the Chicago strike but absent evidence to the contrary, I'm assuming they are in the right.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)Do 14% of CPAs leave the field after their first year in it, and 46% leave within 5 years?
Your calculations leave out some important information, as well as repeating the canard that it's impossible to fire teachers.
Teachers can be fired *at will* in a significant percent of states (right-to-work), and can be fired *for cause* in the rest. If an evil-doing teacher hasn't been taken out of the classroom a/o fired, it's because:
1) administration isn't doing their job
2) the case against them isn't as portrayed in the media
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)You have to have a minimum 3 years of public accounting experience BEFORE you can get certified.
Regarding turnover, those would be good percentages:
http://lifeofanauditor.blogspot.com/2011/06/big-4-turnover.html
Again, the stats are so out of wack, there is no way your simplistic explanation could be feasible.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)joeglow3
(6,228 posts)When you thought they were much lower, you sang a different tune, however.
RegieRocker
(4,226 posts)
Walk away
(9,494 posts)Wages aren't the problem in Chicago. The City and the union are very close on salary and benefits for teachers. The demand for smaller classes and much-needed student services such as more social workers and more special needs teachers and facilities are what is keeping them out. That and job security are what teachers are walking out for.
When people start to blame teachers for the interruption in their lives and children's schedules they had better check out what's at stake. It might be their children's education!
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)they are legally prohibited from doing so.
tama
(9,137 posts)if you corporate goons tried to break CTU on the "legal" grounds you purport, especially during election time. 
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)needed.
tama
(9,137 posts)union bashing or shut up.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)I just posted that unions are needed.
You posted that you thought it would be fun to watch corporate goons decertify a union.
Who is union bashing?
First you lie about the issues why they are striking and when corrected call the strike illegal and suggest the union should be dissolved.
Go ahead and try, make my day.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)tama
(9,137 posts)anti-war, social liberal, environmentalist and great artist.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)tama
(9,137 posts)Walk away
(9,494 posts)and social workers per child. The result would be the closest thing to a smaller class size.
MatthewStLouis
(904 posts)our bargaining position. Brothers and sisters must stand together. Period.
That said, I think it unfair to judge teachers on student performance. Student performance is highly dependent on PARENTS. Yes, parents are responsible for their children. Not to say amazing teachers cannot do great things but it's ridiculous to expect miracles when teachers are placed in untenable situations.
HERVEPA
(6,107 posts)tama
(9,137 posts)just to get pass a test kills the fun of learning. I remember the time when progressive education policies were away from testing and comparing with others and supporting instead our natural curiosity and will to learn. The original meaning of the word 'school' is leisure, freedom to just be, think and learn.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)
krhines
(115 posts)Its simple... You Can't!
tama
(9,137 posts)fuck the people.
avebury
(10,952 posts)I have a problem with increasing education spending without verification that existing dollars are spend wisely. For example, in Oklahoma, there is way too much money spent on Administrative costs and there needs to be some consolidation of school districts (which has worked well in Maine). I don't agree with throwing good money after bad if an existing budget is being mismanaged.
Like it or not an education budget is a fixed dollar amount from which you need to cover all of your costs. You can ask for the sun and the moon but is just is not going to happen. If you give the teachers all they demand, how do you propose that Chicago pay for it? Lay off police and firemen? Cut back on the City Works Department? What vital services are you willing to reduce to give more money to Education? Cut back on repairs to the El? Would you rather have property taxes go up? And if so by how much?
Response to avebury (Reply #42)
AnotherMcIntosh This message was self-deleted by its author.
Logical
(22,457 posts)HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)cr8tvlde
(1,185 posts)Baloney. They mostly get to pick who they represent/treat. That's the difference between a DA and a Defense Attorney. One gets to pick; the other doesn't. Same with public school teachers. (We have all three in our family)
And it takes grievous, intentional, egregious "mistakes" ...usually indisputable corruption and a patient death or two...to take away a professional license.
obamanut2012
(26,080 posts)Like a doctor, attorney, CPA, or even an engineer.
Teamster Jeff
(1,598 posts)I wouldn't even need to know what they are striking over and I would support them 100%. Why not support them? Not enough of this....What if this happens..... BULLSHIT!!!! Don't you think the striking teachers knew all the issues when 90% of them voted to strike. Right now the teachers are on the street picketing. If you don't support striking Union members you are a poor excuse for a liberal.
rdking647
(5,113 posts)is a pretty poor excuse for intelligence.
Teamster Jeff
(1,598 posts)Labor strikes are generally over pay/benefits, job security, working conditions/safety. When negotiations break down and a union decides to strike I don't have to know every detail of the situation to support the strikers.
In the case of this current teachers strike the issues and facts are very well known and a Liberal would support the Strikers.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)The teachers are negotiating with you, via your representatives.
eomer
(3,845 posts)If you want to dazzle us with brilliance you're going to have to realize that there are more facets to your part in society than just "taxpayer". And in my opinion you must do the same in order to be a liberal.
A liberal cares about how we come together to form a community, how we build a commons, and how each part of our collective efforts affects not just oneself personally but every fellow traveler.
Limiting the analysis to solely how much it will cost you is obviously the lackluster view.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)b) of course citizenship is multifaceted. But a primary one is holding accountable the elected officials whom you entrust to get stuff done well and efficiently.
The education system IS the commons, and if it's not being administered properly (by no stretch of the imagination could CPS be so described) then it is incumbent upon citizens to fix it. That's what being a liberal means to me; understanding that we have ownership over society and a responsibility for its stewardship.
eomer
(3,845 posts)Last edited Thu Sep 13, 2012, 09:16 PM - Edit history (2)
To me that is the least important of my connections with teachers and that's why I'm not in favor of my representatives haggling down their salaries and benefits as if it were on my behalf. I want teachers to have great salaries and great benefits even if we could get away with far less. That's because the benefits to society of having well-paid teachers are much more important to me than cutting my taxes. And those benefits are tremendously more important to me than cutting taxes on the wealthy.
So the reason I took your view as one-dimensional is because you seemed to boil it down to that. Apparently I was wrong and you do agree there are reasons to want teachers to be well-paid even if we could get away with less?
Edit to add: Teachers are on my side and I'm on theirs. My "representatives" are my adversaries in these times, sadly.
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)definition of 'liberal' and consensus about what the 'liberal' position is with regard to public-sector unions.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)and I know how hard teachers work, what they go through, and how badly they're treated. I support teachers and their union.
obamanut2012
(26,080 posts)You cannot be anti union and be a liberal. You cannot be against public school teachers and be liberal. You cannot be against striking teachers and be liberal.
Even if you say you are, you aren't.
Stinky The Clown
(67,808 posts)The anti union sentiment is shocking to me.
I had hoped for a conversation, but what I see are many hardened positions against unions.
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)obamanut2012
(26,080 posts)Posters yesterday actually advocated union busting. They actually used those words: union busting.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)It would have been shocking in years past...but this is the new "Lean Forward" world.
It belongs to Arne Duncan, Rahm Emmanuel, Neo-Libs and the Globilization of the world to promote Democracy and Freedom. That's expensive and teachers/educators are very low on the Global Totem Pole.
Just saying...
randome
(34,845 posts)This is DU. Not an echo chamber.
great white snark
(2,646 posts)Hypocrites make DU suck.
Stinky The Clown
(67,808 posts)I said I didn't want a flame war, and I kept true to that.
Great screen name, by the way.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Last edited Tue Sep 11, 2012, 11:55 PM - Edit history (1)
Almost all of them left in disgust after a few weeks because this place is such an anti-union toilet. He posted about it but I'm on my phone and using search is cumbersome.
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)Though I can't claim to be very shocked.
Javaman
(62,530 posts)I'm always amazed with all we know about how unions have been systematically dismantled by the right wing, we are still witness to anti-union BS.
With all we have put up with lack of workers rights, people still question why people go on strike.
It simply boggles the mind.
sadly, the majority of Americans have been lulled into sense of pseudo-work slavery. Once unionized areas of the work force now give up various workers rights as a way to "help out" the very rich corporations in tough times. As if the corporations exist to help the workers.
We as a citizenry have become so complacent and such push overs, due to our abject ignorance regarding our rights as workers, that the corporations, and the public sector employers laugh at us while pleading poverty.
I recently got into a thing with a guy regarding unions when he made the very blanket statement in front of a lot of people that "unions suck", I couldn't help myself and dressed him down and educated him as to the history, hardship and bloody past of unions and the hard fought rights we enjoy today. And what did I get back from him? That I embarrassed him in front of people for his ignorance.
I told him, if you make blanket outrageous statements be prepared to be confronted and deal with the results.
Needless to say, I am fiercely pro-union. Having been a member of the local 600 cameraman's union, my dad and two sisters members of the teachers union and my dad, prior to being a teacher, was a member of the sanitation union of NYC.
leftstreet
(36,108 posts)Anti labor solidarity makes DU suck
DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)Meg_Griffin_1
(49 posts)2 kids home schooled one knocking down $85,000 (son youngest) and the other around $150,000 plus (girl oldest).
If you want well rounded children home school is the way to go!
I have friends whose kids were PUSHED through the public education system that are as worthless as tits on a boar hog!
I am not knocking ALL teachers but you do have much better control of what is taught! I have seen enough teachers with tenure that are so burned out that they really don't care about the children being productive and responsible adults ONLY the retiring to HUGE PENSIONS!
I am sure that what I stated will not make some of you happy but it worked very well for my kids!
obamanut2012
(26,080 posts)Teamster Jeff
(1,598 posts)DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)Of course, some of us use different metrics when considering our childrens' worth.
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)That post was one of the most base and crass things I've ever seen on DU, sorta sound like some othe site doesn't it?
boppers
(16,588 posts)Annual pay was mentioned, not their worth.
Which means the poster who thinks that somebody's take home pay is a measure of human worth is...
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)And maybe that still wouldn't help.
boppers
(16,588 posts)Perhaps those are synonymous in your eyes in some way, though you seem to be arguing against such a conclusion.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)Response to Meg_Griffin_1 (Reply #80)
Post removed
Response to Meg_Griffin_1 (Reply #80)
HangOnKids This message was self-deleted by its author.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)We home school our kids only because we can stay home, and we've got good neighbor support/backup.
Since you did this for your kids you understand just how difficult this can be and the kind of conditions you need to make it possible.
You can't just suggest this as a solution for everyone.
Dorian Gray
(13,496 posts)Every single person in this country should home school! That's reasonable!
Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)not you.
rdking647
(5,113 posts)since then ive been called a republican,a scab,a right winger and other similar nonsense. have the liberals taking a page from teh tea baggers who call everyone not quite as conservative as them "rino's"
the texas GOP platform speaks out against critical thinking. and yet it seems some liberals are agsinst the idea too if it doesn't permit blind allegiance to unions.
Im a liberal. but i dont support the teachers in this strike. I think the teachers are wrong to strike especially now. Im still pro choice,pro gay marriage,pro higher taxes on the wealthy pro drastic military cuts. i supported the teachers against walker in wisconsin.
but in this case i dont support the teachers
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)soon as the Bush gang began imposing their Corporate initiated NCLB 'educational' program on this country.
But it's better late than never, and I am so glad that the people are finally waking up to what has been going on here and are beginning to stand up against the corporate takeover of this country.
I am also thrilled to see the support they are getting from all over the country and even from other parts of the world. Because these policies are Global now, so when people stand up against them in one country, the people are finally going global also and supporting those willing to take on the Corporatists before it's too late.
rdking647
(5,113 posts)but that doesnt make it right now. back before the economy took a dump a case could be made for giving teachers what they want. but times have changed. the economic crash has trashed revenue for cities. less revenue means less money to divy up.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Times HAVE changed and that is why this needs to happen NOW before it's way too late, which it already nearly is, to stop the rolling Corporate train that has been taking over this country for decades now. There is no bad time to begin the fight to take it back from them. Earlier would have been better, but later certainly is not better. Now is a perfect time to begin.
rdking647
(5,113 posts)and they arent getting it in this enviroment. in a perfect world they would but in todays enviroment its wrong. thats my opinion. you have the right to disagree but that doesnt make you any better of a liberal as me.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Are you at all aware of what is going on? Do you think millions of tax dollars should be going to outside Corporate Entities that should have gone to fix the problems students are facing in the existing Chicago School System? Who gave HIM the right to waste that money which belongs in the Public School System, on his Corporate buddies?
There is plenty of money to get what those students need, but Rahm is spending elsewhere.
You don't think our children are worth spending money on? What they need are books, libraries, a safe environment. What do think is more important to spend money on? Rahm's Corporate friends?
Good for the Teachers for fighting for the children, someone needs to.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)[img]
[/img]
Solidarity all the way.
randome
(34,845 posts)I thought DU was better than to shoot down opinions someone doesn't agree with.
It seems we have fallen into imitating the Tea Party -denigrate anyone who doesn't agree.
rdking647
(5,113 posts)someone told me to f off. simply because i disagreed on 1 issue. I though liberals were better than that also.
bigwillq
(72,790 posts)on this matter. Seriously.
Thanks for bravely offering your opinion.
randome
(34,845 posts)It should not be.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)
randome
(34,845 posts)FWIW, I don't support Karen Lewis wanting a 29% raise but I do support wanting air conditioning in all schools.
It's not hard being an objective thinker. It just requires...thought.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)and if you get the moon, awesome.
If you don't get the moon, but you get the top of Mt. Everest, it's way more then you had before.
Here's the thing - when you set the bar low, all you're ever gonna get is low.
Nobody's givin' anything away, especially Third Way Top Rahmie.
If I were you, I'd use those amazingly superior objective critical thinking skills you're claiming to find a way to get off that turnip truck.
Javaman
(62,530 posts)you know zero about how to negotiate.
Do you honestly believe that they think they will get 29%?
randome
(34,845 posts)But not every strike is the same. The point of the OP was basically that the definition of 'liberal' should be modified to state 'Support striking teachers all the time'.
The real world isn't black and white.
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)
fascisthunter
(29,381 posts)your views are much more centrist if anything. Maybe in extremist rightwingo-land you would be labeled a liberal, not here.
rdking647
(5,113 posts)Im a liberal. whether some on the far left think so or not doesnt really matter to me.
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)In most first world countries, what's liberal here is considered moderate.
rdking647
(5,113 posts)who gets to decide what is a liberal idea. does being liberal mean you have to support unions 100% of the time? liberals are supposed to be intelligent. that means we get to decide that in some cases unions are wrong
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)working class and their Unions. You can be Liberal or Conservative on some issues and still be a Democrat, but there are certain issues that all Democrats support, which is why they are Democrats. And the working class is one of them. If you support the Corporate Takeover of our Public School System, eg, then you belong in the other party. 'You' meaning the generic 'you' since I do not know what you personally support.
rdking647
(5,113 posts)i supported the teachers in wisconsin. i even marched in support of them here in texas. but in this 1 case I think the teachers are wrong.
In general liberals support raising taxes on the wealthy. i agree with that. but if someone proposed raising the top tax rate to 75% or some other number I wouldnt support it. That doesnt change my support on higher taxes.
traditional support doesnt mean 100% of the time. there are cases the union is wrong. in my view this is one of them
proud2BlibKansan
(96,793 posts)the Chicago teachers as well. What's happening to them is MUCH worse. One of the things they are striking over is air conditioning. Can you imagine? Schools without air conditioning? That alone is enough for me.
randome
(34,845 posts)cr8tvlde
(1,185 posts)You seem to own the Red State franchise here, so to speak, on the political...both globally and locally on the Chicago, that would be Illinois, teacher situation. As one who has been through the gut-wrenching reality, please, share your knowledge...other than flaming...and do tell.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)tama
(9,137 posts)that you are supporter of the idealized "Real Democratic Party", not of the realistic Third-Way-Corporate Democratic-Party-As-We-Know-It.
Same way as capitalist Libertarians support idealized "Real Capitalism" instead of corrupt corporatocratic Capitalism-As-We-Know-It and Communists idealized Real Communism instead of Real-Socialism-As-We-Know-It from Soviet block.
By playing with words, which is fine.
mike_c
(36,281 posts)...and a sometime democrat when the Democratic Party's agenda aligns with mine. I stand with the Chicago Teachers Union, 100 percent.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)There aren't any liberals who don't support striking teachers.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)
arthritisR_US
(7,288 posts)antithesis of liberal, jmo.
Proles
(466 posts)of unions 100% of the time. That's just not smart thinking.
You need to look at the unions, and what issues are bothering them. In the case of this Chicago strike, I almost know none of the details, so I wouldn't be able to pick a side. The fact that it's a public workers strike makes things more complicated, but there have been occasions where I feel public strikes were justified, such as with PATCO under Reagan.
Honestly, I would rather see a society in which unions aren't always necessary, in lieu of adequate government regulations to protect workers sufficiently.
If we see an increase in union demand, it's usually because the economy is doing poorly, and employers are becoming too exploitative.
With that said, I think the public education system is broken. Unfortunately, this might encourage the mass privatization of education -- something I am entirely against. They already want to privatize prisons.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)That's a long way from a question about 'all unions' 100% of the time'. It asks about teachers, not about Unions, and only when they are striking, not '100% of the time'.
I guess when you don't care for the question, just answer another one instead, the Palin Interview Technique...
Proles
(466 posts)But anyways it doesn't make much of a difference to the point. Even teachers aren't right 100% of the time.
Did teachers strike under Scott Walker in Wisconsin? I'm pretty sure they were among the number of public workers on strike, I can't remember. But in that case I whole-heartedly supported them. In this case? Well as I already said, I don't understand the specifics of this particular strike. So all I'm saying is that people should familiarize themselves with the specifics of the strike before taking sides. Not just because they are teachers.
I'll say I never particularly liked Rahm Emanual as a Democrat. On that instance alone, I'd already say I lean more in favor of the teachers.
But to get more to the point, it's an election season. A lot is at stake. We need to keep the Senate, and gain House seats. So I guess I just don't like the awkward situation this puts the Democrats in, including Obama.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)up...in practice..."
Edweird
(8,570 posts)Response to Stinky The Clown (Original post)
devilgrrl This message was self-deleted by its author.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)There's always money to feed big corporations by letting them off the hook for millions in tax revenue.
There's always money to buy new weapons, tanks and stormtrooper armor for the cops, and money to build new jails so we can continue to run up the champion high score in per-capita imprisonment rates.
There's always money for new stadiums.
There's always money to bail out the banksters.
There's always money to send our military out to blow up brown people in third-world countries, and then to build new aircraft carriers, fighter jets, etc. (OK, I'm slapping together federal, state and local issues here.)
For that stuff, they always manage to pull a few million here, a few billion there out of their magic hats.
But when it comes time to fix leaky roofs on the schools, or to get AC working so kids aren't trying to learn in 100 degree classrooms, or get the class sizes down to a sane level, or get up-to-date textbooks for the kids, or get pencils and notebooks and crayons for the poor kids, or to ensure the kids get nutritious school lunches instead of fatty glop, THEN out comes the wagging fingers from those explaining that budgets are tight and we're going to have to be patient, take a pay cut, don't speak up, don't complain, and DON'T YOU DARE STRIKE!
The scabs can kiss my ass. We all know how the game is played.
madrchsod
(58,162 posts)she grew tried of defending teachers and her disgust with those who supported obama-duncan vision of private education.
i do`t understand it either
bluestateguy
(44,173 posts)But I will not support any course of action that will put the president's reelection in jeopardy to get to that result.
I'm seeing people here who want Obama to drop everything and personally go to Chicago and march in the streets with the strikers. Um, no, that I am not going to able to support.
Swede Atlanta
(3,596 posts)As a progressive/liberal I am CONCEPTUALLY supportive of collective bargaining and the associated rights.
But each case must be considered on its merits. There are times (possibly such as these) when labor must accept less than they would like. Labor has responsibility as well. They have to understand the current fiscal situation and other factors.
From what I have seen, CHI offered a 16% over 4 years...from a purely monetary perspective that is AWESOME relative to what most people are getting. Perhaps workrules are lagging. I think there is the issue of class size.
But we can never side with union members simply because they are union members. We need to be sure their demands are reasonable and achievable in the current context.
I think there is considerable doubt if the CHI teachers have a leg to stand on....IMHO.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)It's also class sizes (you try keeping on top of 40 kindergartners!), crumbling schools, teachers having to buy kids school supplies and lunches out of their own pockets, when really, the school system should be stepping in, teaching-to-the-test, deliberate sabotaging of public schools to funnel money to private charter schools (which have no unions at all) - it's the works!
Technically, the official argument is about the money, because IIRC, the collective bargaining rules prohibit the union from negotiating or striking about class sizes and such. But if you ask me, all the other grievances damned well should be on the table.
fascisthunter
(29,381 posts)looking out for one another and standing for worker's well being, is liberal. Invest in your fellow citizens... makes a much better country for all, except for the sociopaths and wannabe richies.
"I demand to have the right to live off of other's labor." - persecuted investor class
randome
(34,845 posts)backscatter712
(26,355 posts)Being rich? I have no problem with getting rich so long as you earned the money ethically. If you're pulling a Romney at Bain, destroying companies and jobs, while skating away with millions in consulting fees, or if you're making your millions by treating your employees like dirt, underpaying, abusing them, that is also not liberal.
randome
(34,845 posts)Or, if you're lucky, more questions to ask yourself?
ibegurpard
(16,685 posts)because they couldn't forego the salary increase from their demands?
Yes, I believe they're worth it. yes, I understand that scumbag Rahm reneged on a previous deal. But the case that could've been made about how corporate deform has infected both parties to the highest level has been completely lost because that's what's being focused on.
I think it's an incredible waste.
rdking647
(5,113 posts)your a teacher in a union. in a very christian texas town. the union demands that the new contract include a clause that prohibits and homosexual from being hired as a teacher (i know its far fetched but its hypothetical) the teachers go on strike over it.
do you support the teachers?
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)Let us deal with the facts at hand shall we? Please don't give up your day job to write fiction.
fascisthunter
(29,381 posts)
Reader Rabbit
(2,624 posts)It's not about salaries or pay. It's about the use of data and test scores to dehumanize both teachers and their students. Data and test scores are the Trojan Horse by which corporations are sneaking in and gaining control of the U.S. public education system. This is the first major test of whether Americans will support their fellow citizens and the children of the country, or whether they will buy the corporate line and attack the teachers.
ibegurpard
(16,685 posts)Response to Stinky The Clown (Original post)
Post removed
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)Last edited Thu Sep 13, 2012, 12:21 AM - Edit history (1)
of cats. That's why I like the term. It's supposed to be about being not only an individual but part of a BIG group under a BIG TENT. Why does everyone try to make it an issue of either marching in lockstep, or being an outcast or a poser? Liberal ISN'T a binary proposition. It's not BLACK or WHITE. It's every shade possible by mixing black, white, red, blue, and yellow in any one of 6 BILLION+ combinations. Because YOU say liberal is this or that doesn't necessarily make it so. Maybe I'm wrong?
But I digress...
Since we're talking about the teachers striking in Chicago, let's talk about that particular situation... The common refrain is "This isn't about money". The problem arises in that for at least the last year we've been conditioned to make EVERYTHING about money. Can you say 99%? I would ask what that refers to, but that would be condescending I think. It's part of the rallying cry of everyone's favorite protest group though, and to hear it told, the 99% vs 1% equation has changed the tone of policital debate WORLDWIDE. Maybe that's not necessarily a good thing. Play along with me here...
So let's put this in perspective for anyone wondering why a person would have trouble supporting the striking teachers of Chicago...
As I understand it, the average Chicago teacher makes $76k. That, believe it or not, puts an unmarried teacher in the 93rd percentile or top 8%. If two teachers are married, it puts them into the 89th percentile or top 12% of all incomes. So we've been conditioned for the last year to resent, suspect, and point the finger of blame at the 1%. Is it possible that resentment extends further once people find out where they are on the scale? If I'm supposed to resent the 1%, why not the 3%, 6%, or even 10%?
Say Joe Schmoe comes home from his second job, turns on the news, sits down with his TV dinner, and finds out that a group in the top 12% of all earners just turned down a 16% raise (supposedly on principle) while demanding a larger one. Does he (or JoAnn Schmoe for that matter) hear anything past that? Probably not. You see, the Schmoes are in tune, and know the 1%ers are responsible for most of the country's ills. But now he has to take a day of sick leave because his three kids are going to be out of school on the south side of Chicago again tomorrow. His wife took a sick day Monday and an unpaid leave of absence Tuesday because she's out of sick days. He's got three sick days left and NO LoA time. He's praying this is over by Friday, or his family is fucked.
I think it's entirely possible that neither Joe or JoAnn, who've NEVER voted for a republican in their LIVES, might not support this strike with all of their heart and soul like you think "good" liberals should do. For that matter, there are Joes and JoAnns all over the country in the same place as the Schmoes and think to themselves "There but for the grace of God, go I."
It's possible to be a liberal and not walk arm in arm or in lockstep with other liberals. It's not only possible, it's the way it is.
tama
(9,137 posts)Your point seems to be that even liberals can be schmucks. In that regard, your testimony is best left uncommented.
B Calm
(28,762 posts)what they're doing until the 1% pays attention to us.
That LIBERAL enough for ya?
DemocratsForProgress
(545 posts)the women should do?
tama
(9,137 posts)for the inherent sexism of English language.
DemocratsForProgress
(545 posts)that it's so daunting to type two extra words such as "and women" into a statement like the one above.
Far better to just give up and accept the inherent sexism of [the] English language, I guess...
tama
(9,137 posts)and/or blame game is also a linguistic pattern. Personhood is linguistic category with much variation between languages, as is gender. For example my language does not have category of gender for all nouns as most Indo-European languages still do, and no gender division in 3rd person pronoun.
According to the dynamical school of general linguistics that I prefer to Chomsky, language is creative process of two dynamically conflicting general principles: 1) economy (least effort to express a meaning) and 2) power to express as many meanings as possible of the totality of all of our relations.
"Man" as generative pronoun for all humans including womans is an expression of the principle of economy. A more politically correct expression, (and women/(wo)men/humans) would, as you say, take extra effort, and it does not come naturally when the meaning expressed has little or nothing to do with gender equality or lack of.
PS: I was searching for the English equivalent for the technical of term general linguistics that describes the difference of more economic utterance 'man' and less economic utterances woman or human, which in my language is 'tunnusmerkillinen'. Sadly or funnily enough, the first and only word I found in quick search war "discriminatory".
I don't suggest or support giving up and just accepting the inherent sexism of English, on the contrary, but my point is that to change it needs linguistic innovations that don't try to fight against the principle of economy - which has already removed gender articles from English leaving only definite and indefinite article to express aspectual difference.
DemocratsForProgress
(545 posts)My assumption was that you were the person resorting to the personal attack. Following your second comment, I realize I was mistaken. Please accept my apologies.
tama
(9,137 posts)Thanks for pushing for fuller explanation.
DemocratsForProgress
(545 posts)tama
(9,137 posts)tama
(9,137 posts)General strike would not be about getting attention of the power-elite, but about stopping feeding the parasite power-elite and getting rid of it.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)you are probably right, that that is what it will take.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)You are talking to mouthpieces of the Third Way. You are talking to the very same group that can be reliably depended upon to appear in any thread to vociferously defend, and to attack anyone who opposes, any right-wing, corporate, neocon, or police state policy coming out of this administration. Corporate tentacles run deep.
This is the same group that downplays, denies, defends, or justifies indefinite detention, "kill lists" and drone wars, pre-emptive war as administration doctrine, spy centers for mining or surveillance of all phone calls and email without a warrant, internet IDs and internet-censoring measures like ACTA, military drones in American skies, coordinated violent crackdowns against peaceful protesters, and strip searches for any arrestee. This is the same group that reliably and incessantly and beliigerently supports bailouts and settlements for corrupt banks, letting banksters off the hook, supply-side tax policies, payroll tax holidays that threaten Social Security and Medicare, consideration of the chained CPI and eligibility age increases for Medicare, and austerity budgets in an economy that has already impoverished its middle class.....Don't believe it? Try to pin any one of them down on a good range of these policies. Try to pin them down on their agreement with traditional, fundamental Democratic values and principles. You will get the garbage response of litmus tests and, "So I'm not a liberal if I...?"
Now they trash unions. Why anyone is in the least surprised, or why anyone would invite more of their right-wing talking points, is beyond me.
Persistent advocacy of Republican-style right-wing, corporate, and neocon positions used to be grounds for expulsion from DU, but DU is now a deliberately corporate entity that condones and welcomes them. Wading through Third Way, right-wing bullshit is now part of the DU experience. That is why so many liberals have abandoned DU. They hate to see what used to be a Democratic gathering place given over to MSM-like propaganda and incessant commercials for extreme corporatist, neocon, and police state policies.
We have a problem with corporate money in our politics and in our party. What you now see at DU, every single day, is a symptom of that malignancy. These people are not liberals with varying opinions. They are reliable propagandists for the corporate, neocon, one percent-bankrolled Third Way. Their policies on economics (which includes education, "the Big Enchilada" , war, and the police state are just like those of the Republicans. Don't fall for this garbage.
Stinky The Clown
(67,808 posts). . . . . and we got what you describe.
Almost no one in this thread was interested in discussion.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)q) How can liberals not support striking workers?
a) When incompetent workers are striking against the public with unreasonable demands.
"incompetent" and "unreasonable" are subject to honest differences of opinion.
Iris
(15,659 posts)tama
(9,137 posts)It would be so much easier if DU (and other American) leftists could and would just call themselves socialists and social democrats. "Liberal" has so... liberal scope of various meanings that practically anyone can call themselves liberals with good rational arguments.
Sorry for this semantic nit pick about post that I very much sympathize with.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)OneTenthofOnePercent
(6,268 posts)I believe support for most anything should be looked at on a case-by-case basis and be earned on it's merits.
bigtree
(85,998 posts)
my mom in D.C. in the 70's