Welcome To Your New Online Public School - Your Teacher - Mr. Chang - China

[TheMastersNemesis]

The Chicago Teachers' strike is about fighting the profitizing of public schools by corporations. We do not need our American schools anymore, we can just outsource all of it. This privatization scheme is just the first phase in outsourcing our teaching to anywhere on the planet. Our teachers have become inconvenient and expensive and expendable. And they are in the way.

The growth on online schooling is the endgame of the transition of our schools where one teacher can handle hundreds of students on line. In order to understand what Bush started one has to look long term and think through the logical end to all of this turmoil.

The GOP is all about dismantling the country and the democracy. And their hugely rich allies are more than happy to help them for their own economic benefit.

Real human teachers stand in the way of this coup. That is why corporations are determined to eliminate them. Just think how your tax dollars are envied as a source of income. If what is going on is not treason I do not know what is.

[cr8tvlde]

1. Yikes! K & R

[Speck Tater]

2. Oregon already has online public schools

as an option to attending brick and mortar schools. There's no technological reason why teachers would have to be local, or Oregonians, or even U.S. Citizens. It's entirely possible that public primary school teaching could be outsourced to China or India.

[TheDebbieDee]

4. I posted about online public schools for children in grades 3+ being offered

as a business model and a way to educate children more cost-effectively over the next several years here at DU a couple of months ago - and some of the posters who responded to me sounded as though they had lost their DAMN minds!

I was accused of being anti-union, someone inferred that I had been traumatized by some incident at public school and thusly hated the institution, etc. Some other poster here who is a college professor insulted MY education and asked me what was wrong with me.................I had to keep explaining that I wasn't against teachers or public schools or whatever. It's just that I can see that online public schools will become a feasible option to school districts across the country and a great idea to parents who may be concerned about sending their children to schools in which their children may have to sit next to Mustafa or Indira!

Not only would the instructor NOT have to local, the lecture could even be pre-recorded. Let's say that teacher B in West Bumphuck, NJ had a particular way of explaining fractions that made it easier for kids to grasp the concept - well teacher B's lecture could be recorded and played for children in online schools across the nation.

[HiPointDem]

9. are you for real?

[TheDebbieDee]

13. Yes, I'm for real..............I can see in the future that offering an online education

may be a feasible option/alternative for some school districts in the near future.

[HiPointDem]

14. yes, suicide can be a 'feasible' option sometimes.

[TheDebbieDee]

16. And killing the messenger stops bad things from happening, too.

[HiPointDem]

26. 'killing the messenger' = disparaging or attacking the bearer of bad news. i've not made any

personal remarks about you whatsoever.

no, what can stop bad things from happening is rebutting false information with true, and countering spin with actual history of so-called 'reforms' proposed.

Fact is, online education at the k12 level isn't saving anyone any money, nor is it improving education.

All evidence points in the other direction, in fact.

let me tell you what i have seen with my own eyes, as i have two cousins who have gone through an online program (one who is still doing it).

The cost is not only the cost of the program itself. They also had to buy books, workbooks, crappy 'science' kits that consisted of assortments of plastic measuring cups and other plastic crap, etc. Each student is required to buy all these supplies individually (rather than a 'crumbling' bricks and mortar school buying it and reusing it year to year. I saw all this crap arrive by mail every term and saw it still bundled and mostly unused later in the year.

The students' parent was always complaining about the difficulty of reaching the online 'teacher,' the grading procedures, and a host of other ills. How much weight to give this i don't know, as the parent is out to lunch anyway and a great complainer, one of the reasons the kids were in online school to begin with.

The older child who was more grounded 'graduated,' but with big deficits in knowledge that are apparent just by holding a casual conversation with him. His grandparents taught him to read, however, and that may save him, as he enjoys reading.

The younger child needs a real person to work with him. The parent is basically not able; the grandparents are the only stable factor in the childrens' lives & are now too old to carry the weight. Consequently, the child hasn't learned diddley.

On-line learning may work for disciplined kids with involved, disciplined parents with lots of time to act as teacher surrogate. It is a disaster for other kids. The results in aggregate are the worst of any education sector: public, private, religious, inner-city, etc.

The absolute WORST.

[TheDebbieDee]

58. You're right - Online learning will be the bee's knees for disciplined kids without

disabilities whose minds are wired to soak up information and make practical use of the info later.

But the processes of going to school, socializing with kids that may bully you, the emotional stress of trying to fit in, dress right, talk the talk, etc., can be a terrible distraction from the learning process for some kids. These distractions can even prevent these kids from learning.

This won't work for all kids - some kids will need that personal, face-to-face, press the flesh human contact to catalyze the learning process.

The point is, no one knows which learning methods work best for each kid until they've tried a few different ways. And I think that online learning will work for enough kids to make it a feasible alternative/option for some kids.

[HiPointDem]

60. and all of this experimentation is COMPLETELY possible within a PUBLIC system with DEMOCRATIC

oversight by the public -- NOT BY GLOBAL CORPORATE INTERESTS BEHOLDEN TO NO ONE.

[TheDebbieDee]

61. You know, I think you just write like a person with a confrontational attitude.......

Because nowhere in any of my posts do I say one thing about Global Corporate Interests beholden to no one.

I have mentioned that online education can and will be a cost-effective option/way to educate kids in a financially strapped school district.

Methinks thou dost protest too much - I think you (and a couple other other posters in this thread and other threads where online education is mentioned) feel threatened by the very idea of an online education.

[HiPointDem]

63. my posts aren't specifically addressed to you. i haven't made any personal remarks about you or

come to any assumptions about you.

kindly refrain from making personal remarks and personal assumptions about me.

You have argued online ed can be cost-effective. I have argued againt that pov.

and i have also argued that maintaining PUBLIC EDUCATION SUBJECT TO LOCAL, DEMOCRATIC OVERSIGHT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT VALUE.

No "cost-savings" can make up for that loss.

[TheDebbieDee]

69. I think that you underestimate just how compelling cost-savings can be

for a school district operating in the "red".

Threads on this subject seem to bring out the beast in some people. Your posts were directed specifically to ME - I didn't, and still don't, like your tone so I told you about it.

ETA: And after all that, I've just discovered that I answered myself................

[HiPointDem]

77. who cares? the evidence on the ground shows them to be 1) expensive considering that they

drastically cut the two biggest costs of traditional schooling, labor and plant; 2) ineffective (12% graduation rates!); 3) corrupt.

I don't like your tone either, but I didn't feel compelled to give you a lecture or address you personally at all. Stick to the topic, please.

[TheDebbieDee]

71. See post #69 below.

[tama]

41. What we are doing

here and now is online education. Peer to peer mutual aid process of learning and teaching. It's free and available for all of us, kids too. This strike is not about Internet and freedom to learn without authority telling you what to learn. This strike is about resisting neoliberal corporatocracy and strengthening our communities.

[Speck Tater]

19. "...their children may have to sit next to Mustafa or Indira"

Really? You think children are in danger because they might have to sit next to someone named Mustafa or Indira or Barack?

[TheDebbieDee]

23. No-I'm saying that's the reason some people don't want to send their children to public schools.

Some people choose to home-school their children rather than send them to public schools because they don't want them in contact with children they consider as "undesirables"..........And some of these parents might opt for online education.

Some families may live in a remote location and rather than put the kid on a school bus for a 2-hour round trip to school, they might opt for an online education.

There may be many reasons for a family to consider trying an online education.

[lunasun]

34. "undesirables"??? then THEY should pay to be elite -this is about public schools

lets not have our tax money go to hater's whims

[progressivebydesign]

35. and people think that this generation lacks social skills and empathy.

Why not just turn all the kids into little agoraphobics, unable to function outside the house???

[tama]

43. I have my reasons to dislike the school system

I'm divorced former home daddy and me and my ex live in different towns, not too far from each other, and from my point of view schools are prisons that don't allow me and my kids to see each other as often and as long as we would like to, which constantly breaks my heart.

If I had been able to decide, my kids would go to home school in an ecovillage ("it takes a village&quot and learn also practical skills of gardening etc. together with what can be learned from Web and books.

But I stand with solidarity with teachers, students and pupils and other members of our communities resisting the neoliberal corporatocracy.

[madrchsod]

51. that is wrong on so many levels...

i`m not sure where to begin.

let`s just say it would`t work and leave it at that.

[TheDebbieDee]

66. You're quite a prognisticator, but I think several districts will

try this out in the next few years and see for themselves how this works. As a method of learning this may work for 1 in 10 kids or 5 in 10 kids - no one will know til they try it.

And what's so wrong about online education? You make it sound as though it would be akin to sending children to a concentration camp.

[madrchsod]

67. i see nothing organic in online education

[pampango]

52. The whole purpose of integrating public schools during the Civil Rights era was to have whites sit

next to "Mustafa or Indira" or anyone else did not look like them.

For a liberal to defend any system that facilitates segregation in our public schools is just hard to fathom. There have always been and will always be racists but it is not our job to make things easier for them.

One of the goals of a public education system is to teach us to value, not just tolerate, the diversity we live with. Polls show that the current generation of 20-somethings and 30-somethings believe in diversity much more than older folks. This generation was not subjected to charter schools and online academies in any great numbers and, at least to a greater degree, went to school with people who did not look like themselves.

We certainly do not want to teach our children that avoiding people who do not look like them is a way to live in the US or the world in the 21st century. We may have difficulty motivating everyone to go to school together but we certainly should not be concerned about making it easier for them to keep the 'others' away.

[a kennedy]

12. Or certified, or qualified either.....

they can hire anyone!!!

[loli phabay]

55. i would love gettign taught physics by Hawkings, or languages by a native speaker

in 50 years we probuably will not recognise education with the way technology is going.

[HiPointDem]

82. lol. I was taught high school german by native speakers 40 years ago, in a public school in

a bush-league district. People have been taught languages by native speakers since time began.

I was taught many things by experts akin to hawking throughout my life, through the magic of personal appearances, radio, tv, records, etc.

In 50 years education -- real education -- will be no different than it is today, or was in the time of plato and aristotle.

Education isn't about the fucking technology.

[Zalatix]

79. Wait a minute, you're not in favor of discriminating against American workers? THE NERVE!!!

Don't you know that the new economy is about putting up walls to keep Americans out of the work force?

The fewer Americans have jobs, the better off the world is. Just ask any Free Trader, they'll tell you!

[porphyrian]

3. Can anyone name an instance where privatization ended up saving money?

In all of my experience, privatization has cost us. Data be damned, I guess.

[TheDebbieDee]

5. If enough districts can be talked into trying it out...............

it will save those districts enough money to make it worthwhile.

[porphyrian]

6. You mean privatization would save districts money?

I'd like to see the data on that. In my experience, the only data that shows savings is on the spreadsheets they used to sell the idea; then, the recipient company games the contract for maximum profit, forcing further expenditures to do exactly what was previously done in-house.

[TheDebbieDee]

7. Sorry, I meant offering online schools as an option to maintaining "brick & mortar" schools

and providing real flesh and blood teachers to children might be cheaper.

[porphyrian]

11. Ah, yes, I agree with that, as long as it didn't mean losing jobs.

The status quo method of teaching isn't the method most people use for learning, anyway. Technology can eliminate costs associated with busing, maintaining crumbling schools and probably a whole lot more. It will likely cause unforseen challenges as well, but we should honestly weigh all possibilities to make American schools not just better, but the best.

[HiPointDem]

20. jeb bush supports online schooling too. it's a proven money-maker. but it ain't going to save

the taxpayers money.

it's just going to suck your local tax dollars into the pockets of people like jeb bush.

Maine Sunday Telegram investigation found large portions of Maine’s digital education agenda are being guided behind the scenes by out-of-state companies that stand to capitalize on the changes, especially the nation’s two largest online education providers.

K12 Inc. of Herndon, Va., and Connections Education, the Baltimore-based subsidiary of education publishing giant Pearson, are both seeking to expand online offerings and to open full-time virtual charter schools in Maine, with taxpayers paying the tuition for the students who use the services.

http://dianeravitch.net/2012/09/02/for-profit-online-charter-scandal/

Pearson is ultimately headquartered in the UK, and has a global reach. It's the main provider of all those new high-stakes tests teachers are complaining about.

K12 sucks so hard that even *Florida* is investigating it.

The Florida Department of Education has launched an investigation of K12 Inc., the nation’s largest online educator, over allegations the company uses uncertified teachers and has asked employees to help cover up the practice.

K12 officials asked state-certified teachers to sign class rosters that included students they hadn’t taught, according to documents released by the Florida Center of Investigative Reporting and StateImpact Florida...

http://www.ocala.com/article/20120911/ARTICLES/120919935

NEW YORK--(BUSINESS WIRE)-- Faruqi & Faruqi, LLP, a leading national securities law firm, is investigating potential securities fraud at K12, Inc. (“K12” or the “Company”) (NYSE: LRN - News).

The investigation focuses on whether the Company and its executives violated federal securities laws by failing to disclose that: (1) according to various academic benchmarks, K12 students were chronically underperforming their peers at traditional schools; (2) K12 has aggressively recruited students to their schools, regardless of how well-suited they might be for the Company’s curriculum; (3) as a result of K12’s haphazard recruiting process, the Company experiences student retention problems resulting in high rates of withdrawal; (4) K12 schools often have far larger student-to-teacher ratios than the Company advertises; and (5) K12 teachers have been pressured to allow students to pass regardless of academic performance, in order to receive federal funds.

http://charterschoolscandals.blogspot.com/2012/01/k12-inc.html


K12's educational products and services are designed as alternatives to traditional "bricks and mortar" education, for public school students, from kindergarten through to 12th grade. K12 is a publicly traded education management organization (EMO) that provides online education services to charter school students and the enterprise is paid for by tax dollars. K12 is the largest EMO in terms of enrollment.

Research from Western Michigan University and the National Education Policy Center shows that only a third of K12’s schools achieved adequate yearly progress, as required by the No Child Left Behind Act of 2001 (NCLB). Other studies of online schools generally have found lower performance. Whilst K12's contracts and profits have been increasing dramatically as of December 2011,critics have stated that the company uses its revenue to lobby in support of its contracts with state governments.

The company was founded by William Bennett, Secretary of Education under Ronald Reagan and Michael R. Milken from Knowledge Universe and Ronald J. Packard in April 1999. K12 Inc. became a publicly traded company on December 13, 2007.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K12_%28company%29

K12: GRADUATION RATES OF 12%! THREE CHEERS FOR THE BRAVE NEW WORLD OF FOR-PROFIT 'EDUCATION' AND THE RENTIER ECONOMY!

A MILLION STUPID SUCKERS BORN EVERY MINUTE, AND A MILLION SHILLS FOR POWER AS WELL.

[porphyrian]

27. Right, privatizing isn't the way to save money or jobs; that's proven.

JEB! also claimed that education improved while he was governor, but I think anyone close to the process knows how much happy bullshit all of that is. I'm not suggesting that we move forward with his plan. I'm suggesting that we rethink education in a way that benefits everyone. That may mean simply adequately funding traditional education, but I think we do a disservice by not weighing all of the possibilities.

[HiPointDem]

31. You can suggest that all you want. Lots of people are suggesting it. That's not what's happening.

It's not on the menu.

What's happening is that education is being changed to benefit one group mainly and another secondarily. They are: The super-rich and the upper middle class. The two groups who have the majority of income and wealth in this country.

The rest of us will be allowed to drown, & pay for the privilege.

[porphyrian]

46. It may not be on the menu now, but that doesn't mean it can't be on the menu.

I see what you are saying here, but it looks like you've accepted this fate. Why? Let's fix it.

[HiPointDem]

48. I haven't 'accepted' it, as my posts clearly show. I'm doing what i can to provide counter-point

to media/corporate/political propaganda.

However, the only way I see of changing it is a huge wake-up call on the part of the public and a huge protest a/o refusal movement.

I don't see that happening, and contrary to popular culture, opposition movements don't start just because one brave individual stands up and says "no!" and others join to his righteous cause.

They are organised, they are funded (the federal government, in fact, funded parts of the civil rights movement, as did rich people and corporations).

i have no money & am not an organizer or people person. there is no national organized opposition to what's happening. most people remain blissfully unaware & dismissive until they get hit.

chicago is thus of major importance.

[porphyrian]

64. What, you don't believe in the slow clap?

I think people should protest, but I don't accept that as the only solution; I just don't have another one yet. Someone does, though, probably someone here. I think we should have more options and attack on more fronts. The beauty of our diversity is that we collectively know a thousand ways to do the same thing. They have one.

[HiPointDem]

78. I think you are unrealistic & unaware of the forces behind education 'reform', as well as the

bi-partisan support from the political establishment paid by those forces.

They don't *care* about the education of ordinary people. They're not interested in *your* kids, your rights, or anything else about you. They're interested in having more power & sucking tax revenue into their own pockets. They're interested in globalized mass-produced, class-tiered education corporations that they can list on the stock market, with a guaranteed income from taxpayers.

[porphyrian]

84. No, I'm just not defeated before I try.

I am aware of the situation. I am neither intimidated nor willing to accept there is no other way. I've worked to implement unfunded legislative mandates by impossible deadlines and succeeded. They can be beaten, but not if we accept defeat just because it looks hard. We're better than that. I don't know about you, but I'm fucking awesome.

[HiPointDem]

89. You seem convinced that i am accepting defeat by saying people must organize themselves

to fight amassed power.

You think there's some short-cut, some quickie bright idea.

[porphyrian]

91. I'm convinced that you're convinced that there is only one solution.

I don't agree, though I don't have any good alternatives yet. I'm still thinking about it. I suggest others do, too; we'll get there faster that way.

[HiPointDem]

93. You think there's a solution that doesn't involve organizing people? Tell me about it.

What precise actions organized people take are up for debate. The necessity to organize isn't.

[HiPointDem]

22. of course it will mean job loss.

[porphyrian]

28. Does it have to?

We have too many students for teachers. Why can't we develop an online technological solution that actually creates jobs, solves problems and remains public?

[HiPointDem]

29. Under our present economic system, of course. that's the only reason it's being introduced in the

first place.

[porphyrian]

44. I don't know that I agree with that.

I don't have an alternative suggestion at the moment, but then I haven't put much energy into developing one yet. I don't accept that it's either the status quo or privatization and I don't trust people who only sell those two options. That doesn't mean I don't trust you, just that you haven't convinced me.

[HiPointDem]

47. I'm not saying those are the only *conceivable* options, I'm saying that the system as currently

constituted *incentivizes* and *channels* some possibilities v. others.

The imbalance of class power (skewed money power, skewed information power, skewed institutional power, the lack of ability of the lower classes to survive without jobs), the directives of capitalism (make more profit or die) lead easily to certain ends and make others difficult to achieve.

[porphyrian]

62. OK, I'm with you now.

I am not accepting that we maintain things as you have described them, I aim to change things for the better. How do we get there, where is a "there" that benefits everyone (or at least hurts no one) and what do we want to do to get there?

I may be an arrogant asshole, but I'm fucking awesome. I know other people here are, too. It would be a waste not to put that to more good, and I don't see the education problem as anything we can't handle.

[enlightenment]

56. It doesn't have to - but

the point that is being made is that the current push is not for the advances that will do the things you mention.

Right now, one of the biggest pushes - in higher ed at the moment, is the MOOC (massive open online course). Imagine being part of a "class" of 20 or 30,000 students - there is no instructor. You may - if you're lucky - get to watch video lectures. Your assignments and tests are all graded by automated rubrics.

At present, the organizations offering these courses are about 70/30 for-profit. There is one consortium of universities offering free courses. As far as I know, none are currently offered for credit - but there is a growing push to make MOOC courses acceptable for basic general ed and remedial courses . . . and guess who is behind that? The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation.

http://chronicle.com/blogs/wiredcampus/gates-foundation-offers-grants-for-moocs-in-introductory-classes/39792


As I said; right now it is primarily higher ed - but if this 'tech' manages to get a foothold there, it will filter down to K-12. Count on it. It is too 'simple' and too lucrative.

[porphyrian]

65. Let's co-opt it, since they've already built the momentum.

Tai Chi their ass. However, for this, we need a better plan. Who has ideas?

[HiPointDem]

80. "Let's put on a show, Mickey!"

So the orphanage is in trouble....How are those orphans going to raise all that money? It's simple. Hey Lets Put On A Show! Time to fix up that old barn and put up a stage!

Made popular by Judy Garland and Mickey Rooney in the 1930s, but a surprisingly resilient format...This trope causes no end of frustration for those who work in theater. Especially those who have to explain just how long it takes and how much it costs to "put on a show!"

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeyLetsPutOnAShow


There is no "idea" but to organize power against power. Organizing IS the idea, and the only idea. That's how the education deformers got to where they are, and that's the ONLY way any force that wants to stand against them can succeed.

[porphyrian]

85. I don't accept your limitations.

You can be patronizing if it makes you feel better about the box you're in, though.

[HiPointDem]

87. I'm not being patronizing. I'm saying that you are treating the question of confronting amassed

power -- in every aspect of our lives, from how we make our livings to how we get our information to how we are governed -- as if it were just a matter of coming up with a few bright "ideas".

There is only one idea, and that is to organize people against that power. That is hard and time-consuming work, and most people these days have no experience doing it.

You say *you* don't know what to do, you want ideas. History says there's only one idea, and that's to organize a counter-power.

[porphyrian]

88. Thank you for your input, then. n/t

[HiPointDem]

90. ...speaking of patronizing...didn't realize you were in charge here...:>)

[porphyrian]

92. Heh. n/t

[Ship of Fools]

30. Not just losing jobs,

but kids losing the ability to interact and understand community, etc.

That's been my problem with this argument forever ...

[porphyrian]

45. Is socialization necessarily only accomplished through an educational system...?

...or can we separate the two and have both? Technology isn't that bad guy here, using it to put profits before people is. Think bigger.

[loli phabay]

57. i cant see how going to all online schooling wouldnt cost jobs, no more need for janitors

or maintainence or as many teachers, you could have one teacher record the lessons for the whole school in one subject. I personally wonder if we wont be using that model within the next 50 years anyway. I cant believe how much stuff my kids learn from the web its just scarey how quickly the new generations have adapted and with the ease they can teach themselves.

[porphyrian]

68. You can't teach football or ballet online.

Nor can you teach rock climbing, surgery (though this may not be far away) or culinary arts online. Unless the schools are giving out computers and Internet connections, students who do not own their own computers would have to go to some kind of school computer lab or data center. Data centers still need a custodial staff and computers need technicians and support staff.

I don't think the problem is with online schooling, the problem is with the current plan to privatize online schooling, which would end up making people lose jobs local to the current schools, which hurts the local economy and possibly outsources the money altogether to another country. It is also generally a bad idea to have a profit motive for things such as education, health care, law enforcement and the military. I'm not suggesting we go along with the current proposition, I'm suggesting we make it work for people over profit.

[loli phabay]

70. yup some stuff you need to do hands on, but with the way tech is growing we will all probuably be ha

hard wired to some device with constant connection before to long. remember it wasnt to many years ago that computers cost money now you can get connected for practically nothing who knows what the future will hold. its funny i never saw a tv until i was 16 or a microwave until a decade ago and tech just seems to be growing faster than ever.

[porphyrian]

72. Don't fear technology, fear people.

As with any other tool or method, the operator determines whether it is used for good or ill. It is also a good idea to challenge the use of technology to ensure that it's being used properly. However, the future is coming and the future is here, and if we don't have a plan for how it is used, someone else will decide for us.

[loli phabay]

73. erm i saw a movie or documentary once callred the terminator, of course i fear tech :)

[porphyrian]

74. OK, fear SkyNet and autonomous combat robots...

...and maybe nuclear and biological weapons, but these are the result of using technology to cause harm. We can also use it to create clean, renewable energy and a health care system so affordable and effective every other nation models theirs after it.

[HiPointDem]

10. no, it won't. what *will* happen, though, is that the money that used to go to local educators,

staff, maintenance workers, contractors and retailers will now be siphoned out of the community for Globocorp, Inc.

Your local tax dollars will be sent to a limited liability company, perhaps in the UK, Bahamas, Sweden, who the hell knows where. It will *not* continue to flow through the community.

This is a model for more destruction of localities, not for 'saving money'.

[Speck Tater]

21. "save the district money"

is code for "cost the citizen more". It doesn't "save" money, it shifts the burden from the government to the private citizens and the employees of the corporation.

Existing model: Pay staff a fair wage to do the job and pay the fixed costs of running the operation.

Privatization model: Pay staff less and pay the fixed costs of running the operation and siphon off more money as profit.

The privatization model always ends up costing more. It has to. It still has the same fixed costs, plus it has to make a profit for the corporation on top of that. Adding parasites to the mix does not make the system healthier. It's no better that the old medical practice of bleeding the patient with leeches.

[HiPointDem]

32. +100.

[HiPointDem]

8. big kr.

[Avalux]

15. K&R. The Bush family is heavily involved in the destruction of public education.

Neil Bush's company:

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/1022-02.htm


The GOP want to make everything privately owned; to the extent that if you're house in on fire, you have to have the money to pay a private fire company to put it out. Guess who will have the money to do that? Not us.

[pampango]

17. Agree completely, but do you have to throw in the enemy du jour - China? It has nothing to do with

the profitizing of public education. That is by done by Americans to Americans for the profit of rich Americans.

We should protect and cherish public education for its strengths and what it means for the country. The alternative of outsourcing teaching is evil and it is always outsourced to the charter school down the street or the online school in the state capital, not to a foreign country.

You can make the case very effectively that the privatization, profitization of education is a destructive goal of the GOP and its backers without throwing China in there for good measure. Many believe that the GOP (comprised of good ol' Americans) is the evil that needs to be dealt with and do not need a foreign boogey-man thrown in there for good measure.

[HiPointDem]

36. In fact, local education tax monies going to some globo-corp in china is not out of the question at

all. It very well may happen.

There are already a number of corporations based outside the US who are sucking up federal, state and local education money, Pearson (HQ in UK) being the most well-known.

[pampango]

38. For now the problem is Americans sticking to other Americans for the profit of rich Americans.

Much more damage has been done (and likely will be done in the future) to our public education system by Americans than by Mr. Chang and his compatriots. The possibility that Mr. Chang may one day be your teacher seems a diversion from the real enemy who looks and sounds a lot like us.

[HiPointDem]

40. I see it in a different light, which is global corporations sucking public money out of localities.

the same thing, whether they're american or chinese, and they are already non-american.

the real enemy is the global 1%, who hold no allegiance to any locality, region, or country.

[pampango]

49. I just don't feel that "Mr. Chang" is a suitable substitute for "global corporations".

I agree with you on the dangers posed to public education by corporations (both global and American), I just don't like use of a Chinese stereotype in place of the real enemy, any more than I would like the use of Mr. Hernandez or Mr. Gandhi or Mr. Robespierre.

[HiPointDem]

50. i agree to a certain point. but i wonder why you're not talking to the other poster who suggested

that online schools were a good option for folks who didn't want their kids to sit next to little Abdul.

My feeling is, I don't care if it's Mr. Chang, Mr. Brown, or Mr. X. I want local tax money to stay in the community. Any other system is a ticket to ghettoization -- in fact, that's precisely how ghettos are created.

[pampango]

53. Thanks. I hadn't noticed those posts.

I too want my tax dollars to stay in my community. My communities public schools are in much more danger from corporations run by good ol' Americans than by foreigners so I tend to focus on the former.

[HiPointDem]

54. Here's why i think it's important to talk about it, even if the poster did so clumsily. Most

people have *no* idea that local tax monies could be sent to the national HQ of american multinational corporations, let alone non-american multinationals.

Yet this is already happening, at least indirectly (standardized tests).

If nothing else, the public needs a wake-up call to see if they *really* want to head down the path they're already on.

And to me, that wake-up call is a hell of a lot more important than somebody saying "Meet your new teacher, Mr. Chang". Especially since it's also conceivable that on-line schooling will include non-american teachers. and that could be a good thing or a bad thing depending on the context.

But people need to wake the hell up & become aware that these things aren't 'conspiracy theories' -- which people have told me i am subscribing to.

[MadHound]

18. The outcome of all of this is going to be a two tier education system,

For the wealthy and powerful, a traditional education, in a brick and mortar school, with live, in person teachers. For the rest of us, an online education, with a remote teacher who is in charge of hundreds of students, and absolutely no personal touch. It will provide basic literacy, but that is about it. After all, how much education does your labor force need to ask "do you want fries with that?"

Online education, despite what some around here think, is an inferior education. Students need a personal touch, and a teacher who is there for them, not just for the curriculum issues, but all the other non-curriculum issues that are entailed in growing and maturing. Furthermore, no all students have a learning style that is conducive to getting the most out of an online education.

Then there are issues of socialization, peer groups, and other developmental issues.

But an online education is cheap, but hey, you get what you pay for. Do you want your kids to have a substandard education?

[sarcasmo]

24. Bingo!

[Speck Tater]

25. TWO tier system?

The way I see it children in Pennsylvania only need to be taught how to mine coal and children in Iowa only need to be taught how to drive a tractor and children in coastal towns only need to be taught how to haul in lobster pots, and...

That's a lot more tiers than just two!

[lunasun]

39. I sorta saw this already inferred by my kids new school district letter at the start of school

I was told I was misreading the intent and it was badly worded.....maybe or...................was it???

yeah its coming -you don't pick your career you will be led to one appropriate for your economic class standing... or should we just start saying "caste" within the system

[progressivebydesign]

33. I've been VERY disturbed by the 'online' public school ads here in Washington.

Free to attend the online school, and you can go as EARLY as 6th grade. Kids do NOT need to be at home, on their asses, on a computer, going to school. They need to be out among their peers, interacting with REAL teachers and students.

I agree with the Teacher's Unions on this.

[HiPointDem]

37. I speak from personal observation: it's a DISASTER. The so-called 'education' provided, not

just the peer contact, etc.

Cost-saving? Bunk. On-line education doesn't mean just sitting in front of a computer. It means individual purchase of a ton of 'supplies,' including books, workbooks, tests, 'science' kits of cheap plastic crap, etc.

[msanthrope]

42. I used a modified-online approach with some students with disabilities, but

I was available and would step in when needed. I think this might work with older kids, but not middle-school and below--developmentally, I don't think they would be ready for that.

I can see discreet applications for this, but I don't think it should replace the classroom model.

[cr8tvlde]

59. #35 ... To be sure. There is a difference ... like it or not ... that you do for your kids

that might conflict with political correctness, depending on the situation. It's so easy to judge others with the best of intentions, then up comes reality. In California, I'm a long-time Democrat/trained teacher/stay at home mom and started the first parent-initiated Charter School circa 1994 after homeschooling my son in Kindergarten, and the public school 1st grade was so bad (I volunteered, so I know) that we started a Charter School. Had to go to Sacramento and pound doors to get it.

Back then, it was a viable alternative. Life is circumstantial. I don't know what I would do today.

[HiPointDem]

75. When charters first started up, there wasn't any indication unless you were paying laser-like

attention, that they were a trojan horse to undermine public education and unions. I understand that people will do things to benefit their kids, even though in the big picture those things may hurt more people than they benefit.

That is one of the things that makes me so angry about what is going on -- how the powers that be pit people against each other and almost *force* people to act against their true hearts' desire, which, for most, I continue to believe -- is a system that does not operate on the principle of beggar-thy-neighbor/dog-eat-dog.

[lunasun]

86. +1

[JRLeft]

76. A lot of Dems agree with republicans when it comes to privatizing the public school system.

[HiPointDem]

81. yes they do. more fools they.

[n2doc]

83. No, their teacher will be a recording

Infinitely cheaper. They'll claim it is from the 'best' person in the USA, lots of awards and such. The test graders will be minimum wage folks, probably recent grads. Already done in the collegiate level.