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Celerity

(43,399 posts)
Tue Apr 14, 2020, 01:04 AM Apr 2020

Millennials Don't Stand a Chance

They’re facing a second once-in-a-lifetime downturn at a crucial moment.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/04/millennials-are-new-lost-generation/609832/



Hello, lost generation.

The Millennials entered the workforce during the worst downturn since the Great Depression. Saddled with debt, unable to accumulate wealth, and stuck in low-benefit, dead-end jobs, they never gained the financial security that their parents, grandparents, or even older siblings enjoyed. They are now entering their peak earning years in the midst of an economic cataclysm more severe than the Great Recession, near guaranteeing that they will be the first generation in modern American history to end up poorer than their parents.

It is too soon to know how the unfurling business-failure and unemployment crisis caused by this novel public-health crisis is hitting different age groups, or how much income and wealth each generation is losing; it is far too soon to know how different groups will rebound. But we do know that Millennials are vulnerable. They have smaller savings accounts than prior generations. They have less money invested. They own fewer houses to refinance or rent out or sell. They make less money, and are less likely to have benefits like paid sick leave. They have more than half a trillion dollars of student-loan debt to keep paying off, as well as hefty rent and child-care payments that keep coming due.

Compounding their troubles, Millennials are, for now, disproportionate holders of the kind of positions disappearing the fastest: This is a jobs crisis of the young, the diverse, and the contingent, meaning disproportionately of the Millennials. They make up a majority of bartenders, half of restaurant workers, and a large share of retail workers. They are also heavily dependent on gig and contract work, which is evaporating as the consumer economy grinds to a halt. It’s a cruel economic version of that old Catskill resort joke: These are terrible jobs, and now all the young people holding them are getting fired. What little data exist point to a financial tsunami for younger workers. In a new report, Data for Progress found that a staggering 52 percent of people under the age of 45 have lost a job, been put on leave, or had their hours reduced due to the pandemic, compared with 26 percent of people over the age of 45. Nearly half said that the cash payments the federal government is sending to lower- and middle-income individuals would cover just a week or two of expenses, compared with a third of older adults. This means skipped meals, scuppered start-ups, and lost homes. It means Great Depression–type precarity for prime-age workers in the richest country on earth.

Recessions are not good for anyone, from infants to the elderly. Nor are pandemics. Americans born during this calamity will be more likely to have low birth weights and to be in poor health generally, with lifelong effects. Children will not just endure this trauma—manifested in lost months of schooling, skipped meals, housing volatility, and increased abuse—but will carry it with them. Zoomers graduating into the recession will die sooner because of it, suffering increased incidence of heart disease, lung cancer, liver disease, and drug overdoses in the coming decades; they will also earn less over the course of their lives. The elderly are likely to be the most economically insulated group but are facing the most terrifying health consequences. Among adults the news isn’t good, either. And particularly not for those youngish-but-no-longer-young adults who came into this crisis already vulnerable, already fragile, already over-indebted and underpaid. The Millennials were left with scars during the Great Recession that never quite healed, and inherited an economy structured to manufacture precarity for the young and the poor and black and brown, and to perpetuate wealth for the old and the rich and white.

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Millennials Don't Stand a Chance (Original Post) Celerity Apr 2020 OP
I came to terms BGBD Apr 2020 #1
That one job career model died out more than fifty years ago, bubba ... marble falls Apr 2020 #2
Tell that BGBD Apr 2020 #4
Try more of you turning out to vote. Hillary could've won. By all means... brush Apr 2020 #6
Why do you assume that if more Millennials turned out Mariana Apr 2020 #21
There is hope, and so often what we hear from millennials is too many... brush Apr 2020 #25
my "cohort" BGBD Apr 2020 #22
Yes Lulu KC Apr 2020 #28
Good points. All I can say is do the best you can at whatever job you... brush Apr 2020 #29
++ Don't believe that bullshit your work will take care of you . Big corps will toss people for an lunasun Apr 2020 #36
LOL no self respecting Xer would ever say that HarlanPepper Apr 2020 #47
they BGBD Apr 2020 #51
Touche' HarlanPepper Apr 2020 #56
Yep. I entered the workforce in '77, at 18 years old. Things were great for a few years. Progressive Jones Apr 2020 #8
And they need to remember those who faced the same things they do - less the huge ... marble falls Apr 2020 #23
Definitely DBoon Apr 2020 #54
The jobs and workers were disapeared. Robbed of their pensions and futures. marble falls Apr 2020 #57
Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2020 #3
Am I the only person to notice that PoindexterOglethorpe Apr 2020 #5
your Gen years are off Celerity Apr 2020 #10
No, they aren't. PoindexterOglethorpe Apr 2020 #13
Yes they are off, go look up academic work on the subject. I studied demography at uni. Your cohort Celerity Apr 2020 #14
Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2020 #15
It matters to me, as I am academically trained to pursue what are accepted definitions for cohorts & Celerity Apr 2020 #16
Post removed Post removed Apr 2020 #18
I have US citizenship (and also Swedish & UK) and I do not live in the US at present, but I do vote. Celerity Apr 2020 #19
Isn't the cohort after millennials already named as GenZers? brush Apr 2020 #31
of course, I am not the one who claimed it was 'nameless' I was quoting another poster Celerity Apr 2020 #34
I know that people tend to want to make the Baby Boomers only those PoindexterOglethorpe Apr 2020 #39
I actually have that book "Generations" BumRushDaShow Apr 2020 #24
there is a micro Gen for Boomer/Gen X cuspers, Generation Jones, you would be solidly in that Celerity Apr 2020 #35
Yes - I did mention that "transition" group BUT BumRushDaShow Apr 2020 #38
Strauss and Howe make it clear that the leading members of a generation PoindexterOglethorpe Apr 2020 #40
Well naturally! BumRushDaShow Apr 2020 #44
I just reread both Generations and The Fourth Turning. PoindexterOglethorpe Apr 2020 #37
See my post here-- BumRushDaShow Apr 2020 #43
I'm here and advertising it by my handle genxlib Apr 2020 #20
+1 HarlanPepper Apr 2020 #48
Me too Bettie Apr 2020 #52
'...historians dismiss the book as about as scientific as astrology or a Nostradamus text' Lancero Apr 2020 #46
It goes back before Reagan jmbar2 Apr 2020 #7
K & R nt Progressive Jones Apr 2020 #9
+2 great reply Celerity Apr 2020 #11
+1 honest.abe Apr 2020 #26
Your points on "investing in education to get into the primary group" is spot on. brush Apr 2020 #32
Some Millennials do get a Bad Rap to a Degree OhioChick Apr 2020 #12
Biden's New Student Loan Cancellation Plan Celerity Apr 2020 #17
Thanks for Posting This OhioChick Apr 2020 #41
Third for me JustAnotherGen Apr 2020 #27
Working in the public sector is an option that should be better publicized lapucelle Apr 2020 #30
I agree! MissB Apr 2020 #49
Maybe not big money, but sometimes pretty good retirement benefits. JustABozoOnThisBus Apr 2020 #58
Sadly true. FM123 Apr 2020 #33
This argument is so not right. LakeArenal Apr 2020 #42
I really really suggest you educate yourself on the economic reality facing those under 40 Amishman Apr 2020 #53
Just stop. Every generation has stuff LakeArenal Apr 2020 #55
The screwed generation. Initech Apr 2020 #45
I hate to say it, but becoming totally disabled has really been a blessing Victor_c3 Apr 2020 #50
Actually, they have a good chance of being among the most fortunate Hortensis Apr 2020 #59
 

BGBD

(3,282 posts)
1. I came to terms
Tue Apr 14, 2020, 01:21 AM
Apr 2020

a long time ago that I was not going to have a career with a single company like the generations in front of me were able to do for the most part. At first I thought I'd have to bounce around every few years for one reason or another. I've managed to stick with the company I'm with now for over 8 years, but I think the expiration date is in sight and it's getting to be time to get out.

Honestly though, I can't even stand the idea of giving away 10 hours a day of my life 5 days a week for the next 30 years to people who think they are better than me just because somebody messed up and gave them a little power. I'm going to take the risk to start my own business, if I fail I can always find something else. I'd rather fail on my own than spend my life propping up somebody else.

Millennials get a bad rap, but we're a whole lot tougher than we get credit for. I think we are the least naive generation; we have no illusions that the world is fair or that hard work will eventually pay off on its own.

marble falls

(57,097 posts)
2. That one job career model died out more than fifty years ago, bubba ...
Tue Apr 14, 2020, 01:26 AM
Apr 2020

times have been up and down for 75% of us since Reagan. We're in this barrel together. Stop kicking your allies who've been dealing with this crap since before you were born.

 

BGBD

(3,282 posts)
4. Tell that
Tue Apr 14, 2020, 01:39 AM
Apr 2020

I know lots of folks who've been in the same job since the 70s and early 80s. I don't know anybody my age who has been in less than three jobs in the past 10 years.

brush

(53,784 posts)
6. Try more of you turning out to vote. Hillary could've won. By all means...
Tue Apr 14, 2020, 02:02 AM
Apr 2020

encourage your cohort not to pull staying home again or voting for Stein because a socialist didn't win in America (the chances of that happening is slim to none).

Now is the time to show up at the polls if you want the monster who mocked the virus and was totally unprepared for handling it out of office.

Mariana

(14,857 posts)
21. Why do you assume that if more Millennials turned out
Tue Apr 14, 2020, 09:00 AM
Apr 2020

that they'd vote for Democrats? The majority of them might vote for Republicans, like their elders do.

brush

(53,784 posts)
25. There is hope, and so often what we hear from millennials is too many...
Tue Apr 14, 2020, 09:49 AM
Apr 2020

boomer vote repug. I hope the same is not the case too if they actually do vote.

 

BGBD

(3,282 posts)
22. my "cohort"
Tue Apr 14, 2020, 09:25 AM
Apr 2020

votes just fine. 30 to 45 years olds turned out at close to 60% in 2016, not that far behind the 60 year olds. not very different from what we've seen as a proportion over the past 40 years. The under 30s are the ones not voting and those are fewer millenials and more Zoomers all the time.

What I'm saying is jobs are different now than they were just 15 years ago. We take a job and dont expect to stay more than a few years, good times or bad times. In the first few years we were working the great recession happened and we saw how employer loyalty worked, so we don't have any loyalty to employers either.

I still have Boomers and sometimes Xers say things like "If take care of your work, your work will take care of you." Just not true, your work will screw you over to up a dividend by .01.

I dont want to turn this into generational warfare, but Millenials are going to have a much different career path than most folks older than us have.

brush

(53,784 posts)
29. Good points. All I can say is do the best you can at whatever job you...
Tue Apr 14, 2020, 10:00 AM
Apr 2020

have and a break will come as you gain knowledge and experience. There have been 13 recessions since WWll so Boomers and Xers haven't had it easy all the time either. When they were younger they were ones first fired too in the recessions.

This one is particularly bad, and to have the worst dumb bell in history in the WH, who bungled the response to it, has made it even worse.

Please encourage everyone you know to vote blue in November to get him out and give the nation a chance.

lunasun

(21,646 posts)
36. ++ Don't believe that bullshit your work will take care of you . Big corps will toss people for an
Tue Apr 14, 2020, 11:25 AM
Apr 2020

extra dime . Nothing personal about you, it’s just they want the extra dime . Remember they are beholden to stock owners to make choices for the most profit
People who are clueless will say that the economy is no different today than it was 20 yrs ago
Hard to even discuss it if that’s someone’s outlook it’s so off from the majority of people’s reality

Of course class view clouds perspective too

 

HarlanPepper

(2,042 posts)
47. LOL no self respecting Xer would ever say that
Tue Apr 14, 2020, 12:46 PM
Apr 2020

"If take care of your work your work will take care of you."

Progressive Jones

(6,011 posts)
8. Yep. I entered the workforce in '77, at 18 years old. Things were great for a few years.
Tue Apr 14, 2020, 03:12 AM
Apr 2020

I had a great job at a large printing company. I was earning 3 times the minimum wage to start, and I could work all the overtime I could eat, which was huge for a kid my age. I got a promotion in a year and a half, and with that came more money. As far as I was concerned, I could have stayed in that place for life, just like the older men i worked with and trained under. They were lifers, some since the 1930s.

Then the plant closed up. Then all kinds of manufacturing closed up. Then the wages got suppressed, because it became a "buyers market". There were a lot of people looking for jobs. Then came the attacks on unions with the "right to work" laws. Things got real f'ed up, and stayed that way for quite a while. People were fooled by the market bubbles, and praised Reagan, and started voting GOP in big numbers.

Even with training, and education, and hard work, my trajectory has been pretty flat, just like millions and millions of others
in my age group.

The future now belongs to the Millennials and their younger cousins. They need to step up and make that future work for them. I'll always fight for them. I have a child in each of the last two generations.

marble falls

(57,097 posts)
23. And they need to remember those who faced the same things they do - less the huge ...
Tue Apr 14, 2020, 09:31 AM
Apr 2020

education debts, who haven't stopped fighting the power since the sixties.

DBoon

(22,366 posts)
54. Definitely
Tue Apr 14, 2020, 02:31 PM
Apr 2020

Companies have been going bankrupt, merging, being acquired for decades and with each reorganization a huge chunk of the workforce is let go.

Even in the supposedly prosperous 1990s, companies that were profitable and making money were cutting staff. Who was that CEO who posed with a chainsaw, illustrating how he cut costs?

Pensions began vanishing in the 1980s. Medical benefits have been cut. Education costs have skyrocketed.

It is a decades-long trend that crosses generations.

Response to Celerity (Original post)

PoindexterOglethorpe

(25,861 posts)
5. Am I the only person to notice that
Tue Apr 14, 2020, 01:42 AM
Apr 2020

GenX has somehow disappeared and become part of Millennials?

There really is a difference. GenX was born between 1960 and 1981. Millennials are those born 1982-2001. There's a new generation, currently nameless, born from 2002-2020. What's going on right now, this year, is a watershed event, and marks the beginning of a new generation.

For those interested, read Generations by William Strauss and Neil Howe. For a bit of a fast forward to what's going on now, read The Fourth Turning by the same two gentleman. Both books are mind-boggling and eye-opening.

I just recently, as in the past two weeks, reread both books, and I feel as if I have a very good grasp on what's happening right now,.

Celerity

(43,399 posts)
10. your Gen years are off
Tue Apr 14, 2020, 03:26 AM
Apr 2020

Gen X is 1965-1980

Xennials (a cusper, micro sub gen inside of Gen X, also called Carter babies or Generation Catalano) 1977-1980 or sometimes extended to 1983 and then called the Oregon Trail gen)

Millennials 1981-1996 (Used to be 1995 as end year but 1996 to now accepted to match the 16 years of Gen X)

Zennials/Zillennials (a cusper micro Gen, all in it were single digits in age when 9-11 happened, but also old enough to have at least really vague memories) 1992-98 (my micro Gen, I am 1996 born and have been redefined as a last year Millenial, I used to be considered a first year Zoomer, I deffo feel more late Millennial than early Gen Z, but the people I best relate to are a mix, say 1989 to 1999 born)

Gen Z (Zoomers) 1997-2012 (preliminary end year, as that is 16 years, to match the Gen Xers and the Millennials)

Gen Alpha 2013 onward (2013 start is preliminary)

PoindexterOglethorpe

(25,861 posts)
13. No, they aren't.
Tue Apr 14, 2020, 03:48 AM
Apr 2020

Unfortunately, a lot of people call he Baby Boom by the years of maximum births. Do yourself a favor and read Generations by William Strauss and Neil Howe. The actual years for the Boomers in terms of a generational identity is those born between 1943 and 1960. GenX is those born 1961-1981. Millenials born 1982-2000 or 2001.

What is happening right now, with this CoronaVirus thing, means that one generation has suddenly ended, and another one is being born.

Again, please read either Generations or The Fourth Turning, both by William Strauss and Neil Howe to clarify all of this.

Celerity

(43,399 posts)
14. Yes they are off, go look up academic work on the subject. I studied demography at uni. Your cohort
Tue Apr 14, 2020, 04:10 AM
Apr 2020

years are off, they are not at all accepted by the vast majority of demographers, political scientists, polling experts, etc., as of 2020.

Response to Celerity (Reply #14)

Celerity

(43,399 posts)
16. It matters to me, as I am academically trained to pursue what are accepted definitions for cohorts &
Tue Apr 14, 2020, 06:49 AM
Apr 2020

most all other forms of measurements and divisions. To claim that someone born in 1961 has a shared generational outlook with someone born in 1981 is simply not acceptable to me.

If Buttigieg was born 20 days earlier, then he would be in the same generation as Obama, if we go by the poster's cohort ages. Pete was still in uni (at Oxford) when Obama declared for POTUS, he was a 13 year old in junior high when Obama declared for IL State Senate at the age of 34.

It is also just not correct that a person who was 19 when 9-11 happened (Pete again for example) can be said to be in the same gen as someone who was not even born when it occurred (my cousin for instance, born in mid November 2001, I forget her exact date of birth, I know it is around a week before Thanksgiving occurs in the US) and could not even vote in the 2018 elections, let alone the 2016 Trump/Clinton one.

Finally, that poster did not even know the name of Generation Z or Generation Alpha (the one after Z.) They said

Millennials are those born 1982-2001. There's a new generation, currently nameless, born from 2002-2020. What's going on right now, this year, is a watershed event, and marks the beginning of a new generation.


Sorry, I stand by all I said. People are entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.

Response to Celerity (Reply #16)

Celerity

(43,399 posts)
19. I have US citizenship (and also Swedish & UK) and I do not live in the US at present, but I do vote.
Tue Apr 14, 2020, 07:40 AM
Apr 2020

I do not, at present, have plans to move back to the US, my wife is against the idea itself far more than I am. I am already working in an economics-related consultancy job btw, just not one that has much to do with the rebound of the US from an financial perspective. That could change in the future, but it is a remote possibility if Trump wins re-election, thus my huge interest in the 2020 US elections. It is why I joined DU in mid 2018, after being told about from an old uni mate (he is American, also from Los Angeles.)

I must say, btw, that this

I'm not afraid to admit that our party's biggest problem is that we have bred generations that have come to expect solutions from government for those without the grit to work the job market.


is a straight up RW-talking point in my book. I profoundly disagree with it, it reeks of 'pull yourself up by your own bootstraps' libertarianism, and also is very much non applicable to many people of colour (I am one) who as a group have been fucked about in the US for 400 plus years (the first 19 or so Africans to reach the English colonies arrived in Point Comfort, Virginia, near Jamestown, in 1619, brought by English privateers who had seized them from a captured Portuguese slave ship.) The Native American population has been ravaged for even longer. If not for good politicians in the federal government, we would be fucked even more than many of us still are.

Celerity

(43,399 posts)
34. of course, I am not the one who claimed it was 'nameless' I was quoting another poster
Tue Apr 14, 2020, 10:46 AM
Apr 2020

who said it it was nameless (as well as posting incorrect years involved for the different gens)

PoindexterOglethorpe

(25,861 posts)
39. I know that people tend to want to make the Baby Boomers only those
Tue Apr 14, 2020, 11:48 AM
Apr 2020

born during the peak years of births after WWII.

I will suggest that you read either Generations or The Fourth Turning by William Strauss and Neil Howe and read the very careful case they make for generational types, what the stage of life a generational type is in when certain kinds of events happen shapes the generation, and so on. It's not something that can be summarized very readily. But an understanding of their typology, including the years they give for each cohort, helps make enormous sense of history, and how things play out.

The essential point I was trying to make was that somehow what for a couple of decades was called GenX (they use the name Thirteeners in their books because that's the thirteenth generation since the one that founded this country.), that name has largely disappeared and that group tends to get grouped with Millennials. Or ignored entirely.

BumRushDaShow

(129,057 posts)
24. I actually have that book "Generations"
Tue Apr 14, 2020, 09:40 AM
Apr 2020

but there are a couple things going on with respect to those who attempt to designate "generations" - with one focusing on "cultural identification" and the other on actual birth rates and the curve.

The "1946 - 1964" designation was supposedly based not only on birth/fertility rates as defined by the Census Bureau but also on the reasons behind the drop in births based on the approval of "the pill" in 1960, with use doubling for the next couple years after, and where 1964 purportedly marked the finale of a dramatic drop-off of births (or at least signaled the end of the "post WW2 baby boom", reaching a point where the boom uptick began in earnest, and where in 1965, the SCOTUS invalidated any state laws prohibiting contraception).



There have been some who attempted to define the transitional groups - in this case - the transition between "boomers" and "GenX" because "culturally", those in that transition weren't as dramatically behaving as what the media eventually "defined" as characteristics that GenX espoused either (so much focus on "grunge" and "I don't care" and other stuff). Thus you had some call the transition group "Generation Jones" too.

As a 1962 baby - most of my friends had older brothers and sisters who were definitely in the boomer camp, many averaging 3 - 4 years older than me (including those who, for example, were seniors in high school my freshman year). But since they were siblings of my friends, we all played together despite the age range (and the play groups even included my own younger siblings). So I had quite a bit of exposure "culturally" to "boomer" stuff and consider myself in the "tail end boomer" group, and have little association with GenX other than a youngest sister who is definitely GenX-y.

Celerity

(43,399 posts)
35. there is a micro Gen for Boomer/Gen X cuspers, Generation Jones, you would be solidly in that
Tue Apr 14, 2020, 11:04 AM
Apr 2020
Generation Jones

is the social cohort of the latter half of the baby boomers to the first years of Generation X. The term was first coined by the cultural commentator Jonathan Pontell, who identified the cohort as those born from 1954 to 1964 in the U.S. who came of age during the oil crisis, stagflation, and the Carter presidency, rather than during the 1960s, but slightly before Gen X. Other sources place the starting point at 1956 or 1957.

Unlike boomers, most of Generation Jones did not grow up with World War II veterans as fathers, and for them there was no compulsory military service and no defining political cause, as opposition to United States involvement in the Vietnam War had been for the older boomers.

Also, by 1955, a majority of U.S. households had at least one television set, and so unlike boomers born in the 1940s, many members of Generation Jones have never lived in a world without television – similar to how many members of Generation Z (1997–2012) have never lived in a world without personal computers or the internet, which a majority of U.S. households had by 2000 and 2001 respectively. Unlike Generation X (1965–1980), Generation Jones was born before most of the Sexual Revolution of the 1960s and '70s.

The name "Generation Jones" has several connotations, including a large anonymous generation, a "keeping up with the Joneses" competitiveness and the slang word "jones" or "jonesing", meaning a yearning or craving. It is believed that Jonesers were given huge expectations as children in the 1960s, and then confronted with a different reality as they came of age during a long period of mass unemployment and when de-industrialization arrived full force in the mid-late 1970s and 1980s, leaving them with a certain unrequited "jonesing" quality for the more prosperous days of the past.

Generation Jones is noted for coming of age after a huge swath of their older brothers and sisters in the earlier portion of the baby boomer population had come immediately preceding them; thus, many complain that there was a paucity of resources and privileges available to them that were seemingly abundant to older boomers. Therefore, there is a certain level of bitterness and "jonesing" for the level of freedom and affluence granted to older boomers but denied to them.

The term has enjoyed some currency in political and cultural commentary, including during the 2008 United States presidential election, where Barack Obama (born 1961) and Sarah Palin (born 1964) were on the presidential tickets.

BumRushDaShow

(129,057 posts)
38. Yes - I did mention that "transition" group BUT
Tue Apr 14, 2020, 11:43 AM
Apr 2020

My father WAS a WW2 vet (he was the "baby" of the group of vets having been born in 1924 and was 19 when drafted right out of college). My mother was a "depression baby" born in 1930, and her male peers were Korean War Vets. She was an "older mother" (got married "later" - in 1959 and had me at age 32). And her own friends had babies in the mid-50s, where their "younger" siblings were my age.

One of the other things that drenched my little age group in "boomerisms" was that during the mid-late '60s, much of the programming from the '50s and early '60s that was either still airing in "first run" (like "Bonanza" ) or was shown in re-run/syndication (like "The Patty Duke Show", "McHale's Navy", "Gilligan's Island", "Batman", "The Munsters", "Micky Mouse Club", etc.), was something that we got exposed to.

My dad got one of those RCA color TVs back in 1966 or 1967 and since I started 1st grade at age 5 in 1967, I knew my numbers and certainly could turn the dial on the TV to watch my faves - like "Batman" and "Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea".

It looked sortorf like this (would have to pull out my dad's slides to get some detail on what model it may have been) -



I never really accepted the "Generation Jones" term myself - but again, that was my circumstance!

PoindexterOglethorpe

(25,861 posts)
40. Strauss and Howe make it clear that the leading members of a generation
Tue Apr 14, 2020, 11:50 AM
Apr 2020

do have a somewhat different experience than the trailing members of that same generation. They discuss that at length in both books.

BumRushDaShow

(129,057 posts)
44. Well naturally!
Tue Apr 14, 2020, 12:08 PM
Apr 2020

I just posted something mentioning that there was basically in no way to have a shared experience while in elementary school, with someone who is in high school or college at that same time. But the generation is not really defined by those earliest ones. The peak of births was in the mid-late 50s and those were the ones who I got most exposed to.

My mother read that book as well and her whole take on it was that there was no way you could have what in many instances, is one end of the range being "the parents" (at age 18) of those at the tail end (if you go by the 1964), and insisting they share the same beliefs. So she didn't really accept the idea of the "boomer" designation. Her own "baby" brother is a 1943 who I call a "WW2 baby". - and I tease him because his generation were the ones that the older boomers wanted to be like.

And my mom always bemoaned her own "forgotten" generation (she had been born in 1930), who never had a President from her generation. You had the "Greatest Generation" group (including my dad's age group) and then it skipped to the older boomers for the next set of Presidents.

PoindexterOglethorpe

(25,861 posts)
37. I just reread both Generations and The Fourth Turning.
Tue Apr 14, 2020, 11:36 AM
Apr 2020

Strauss and Howe's case for the cultural designation of generations is powerful. Far more powerful than the simple years of most births for the Boomer designation.

There is always a bit of muddling in the transition years, but overall their thesis is incredibly sound and completely convincing.

I really, really wish more people would read at least one of those books. Reading them back to back was useful, but a lot of what's in Generations is repeated verbatim in Turning, so the second book was very repetitious, although because it came out half a decade after the first, they were more confident in their predictions of how the whole thing might play out. We are absolutely at the peak of a Crisis, and however this all plays out, a lot will be very different afterwards.

BumRushDaShow

(129,057 posts)
43. See my post here--
Tue Apr 14, 2020, 11:56 AM
Apr 2020
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100213282520#post38

The dynamic not really being factored in is that (at least according to my mom), there was a sortof expectation of having "3 or 4" kids during that period (only having "2" would mean "0 population" growth).

So interestingly enough, there were several families in my neighborhood, who had 4 or even 5 kids. And the younger siblings were either my age or my sisters' ages. But we interacted with and played with their older brothers and sisters. Not so much the ones at the early end of the boomer range who were in high school and college in the late '60s, but the ones who were born in the mid-late 50s and who were in middle school/junior high while we were in elementary school.
 

HarlanPepper

(2,042 posts)
48. +1
Tue Apr 14, 2020, 12:48 PM
Apr 2020

I'm no millennial either.

But honestly I'm not surprised someone might think that. Nobody has been forgotten and stepped over more than Gen Xers. I'm resigned to the fact we will never have a Gen X president, for example.

Lancero

(3,003 posts)
46. '...historians dismiss the book as about as scientific as astrology or a Nostradamus text'
Tue Apr 14, 2020, 12:42 PM
Apr 2020
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/08/us/politics/stephen-bannon-book-fourth-turning.html
https://qz.com/970646/the-world-has-already-bought-into-steve-bannons-apocalyptic-ideology/

And ofc, these books also served as the basis to Bannons movie, Generation Zero.

Random question, do you still think that the Coronavirus outbreak is another over-hyped y2k event?

jmbar2

(4,888 posts)
7. It goes back before Reagan
Tue Apr 14, 2020, 02:21 AM
Apr 2020

There was always a two-tier labor market in the US. The primary labor market was for mostly white men in suits. They got training, career security, benefits and upward mobility. The secondary labor market was for every one else.

In the past, there were some benefits and stability in the secondary labor market, particularly in government jobs - post office, city and state jobs. They opened the door for the black middle class and for women to enter the workforce in the 1970s.

In the 1980s came the financial managers, hedge funds, and corporate raiders that found more profit in buying and dismantling companies than building them. They laid off whole swathes of former primary labor market folks, pushing them into the secondary labor market. Which was still relatively secure, but less than the primary. On the outside, most people couldn't tell the difference, but it was always divided.

I entered my professional career in the 1980s as a secondary labor market professional. I never enjoyed job security, was laid off every time there was a recession, and was never able to achieve the stability that we think of in a long-term permanent job.

In the 90s, it morphed into core workers and temp/contract workers. Basically, a whole other layer of corporate bloodsuckers got between you and the employer, and they drained your paycheck some more.

And you had to train yourself, incurring debt that might never be recouped. If you were in the primary labor market, you could recoup your educational investment through career advancement and longevity. They tricked people into thinking that if you got the education, you'd move into the primary labor market of security and benefits. It was a lie. Most people didn't realize there was a secondary labor market, and that was their destiny.

Somewhere along the way, I learned how to eke out a living in the boom/bust secondary contractor market. But it was never secure and I never really recouped my educational investment.

I worry for the C generation. I don't think any generation has ever had to enter the labor market when it was so messed up and predatory as today. Except maybe for feudalism.

The corporate overlords have destroyed this country. I hope that the next time they are crying for your talent and creativity that you'll burn their asses to the ground. Don't become fodder for them. Find another way. Form cooperatives or unionize all the gig/permatemp workers. Don't surrender your young brilliance to them. They don't deserve you.

Love XXX

brush

(53,784 posts)
32. Your points on "investing in education to get into the primary group" is spot on.
Tue Apr 14, 2020, 10:21 AM
Apr 2020

Most don't get that money back and can end up with career-long debt because student loans can't even be expunged by bankruptcy.

And then there are the for-profit-collect hucksters who sell people on getting government loans—that's mostly a total rip-off as many have questionable credibility and educational value offering. Repug educational secretary De Vos is keeping many afloat though to keep on preying on students though who end up owning for years also.

OhioChick

(23,218 posts)
12. Some Millennials do get a Bad Rap to a Degree
Tue Apr 14, 2020, 03:46 AM
Apr 2020

My kids are Millennials, worked hard to get to where they're at now. Weren't lazy, had no time for much socializing, always had their heads buried in books.

It'll pay off for them, provided they don't fall ill.

As for student loan debt, they're buried though.

Celerity

(43,399 posts)
17. Biden's New Student Loan Cancellation Plan
Tue Apr 14, 2020, 07:10 AM
Apr 2020
https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/04/10/bidens-new-student-loan-cancellation-plan

Joe Biden on Thursday announced a plan to cancel student loan debt for low- and middle-income borrowers who attended a public college or private historically black institution.

The former vice president and Democratic presidential nominee's proposal, announced in a Medium post, moves him somewhat closer to the debt cancellation plan from Senator Bernie Sanders, who dropped out of the presidential race earlier this week and had said he would seek to cancel all student debt as president.

Biden's plan would forgive all undergraduate tuition-related federal student debt for borrowers who earn up to $125,000 a year and who attended community college or four-year public colleges and universities. The federal government would cover monthly payments for borrowers until the forgivable amount was paid off under his proposal, which would apply to borrowers who attended private HBCUs or minority-serving institutions.

snip

GREAT programme, and a wonderful incentive for younger people to vote for him. I personally have no student loan debt as uni was either (and still is) free here in Sweden for EU/EEA citizens (I am actually being paid a salary as I am doing post doc research), and my parents paid for my UK and US tution in full, but I know many who are buried, like your children. Some of my graduate school mates from UCLA had over 250,000 USD in student loan debt, it is madness. Up until the fall of 2011, Swedish uni was free for anyone in the world, even Americans, and if you started a programme in January 2011 (or more likely, fall 2010) you were grandfathered in for the duration of your studies.

OhioChick

(23,218 posts)
41. Thanks for Posting This
Tue Apr 14, 2020, 11:54 AM
Apr 2020

But unfortunately, I don't believe this would apply to my kids as it only applies to undergraduate tuition-related federal student debt.

Mine both carry hundreds of thousands in debt from attending medical school.

You are right though, it's a great incentive to get the youth out to vote. I think it's utter insanity what tuition costs are in the US compared to other countries. It's shameful.

lapucelle

(18,265 posts)
30. Working in the public sector is an option that should be better publicized
Tue Apr 14, 2020, 10:03 AM
Apr 2020

to young people. Jobs with federal, state, or municipal governments very often still carry old fashioned protections: a contract, a union, health benefits, vacation time, and a pension. And because you can spend a career with an agency or department, there is stability.

It's seldom a glamorous or big-money career, but these options can provide the type of security that is almost impossible to find these days starting out in the private sector.

JustABozoOnThisBus

(23,344 posts)
58. Maybe not big money, but sometimes pretty good retirement benefits.
Tue Apr 14, 2020, 03:17 PM
Apr 2020

AFSCME, teachers' unions, police/fire unions, seem to have better retirement packages than many private companies.

Organize.

Solidarity Forever!

Bozo, former UAW, former IBoT.

FM123

(10,053 posts)
33. Sadly true.
Tue Apr 14, 2020, 10:23 AM
Apr 2020
"Saddled with debt, unable to accumulate wealth, and stuck in low-benefit, dead-end jobs, they never gained the financial security that their parents, grandparents, or even older siblings enjoyed. "

Even older siblings. What my younger kids face is a whole other world than my older one, and there is only a half dozen years between them but the disparity is glaring.

LakeArenal

(28,819 posts)
42. This argument is so not right.
Tue Apr 14, 2020, 11:55 AM
Apr 2020

When I graduated college, we were being tear gassed and targets of police. We were totally disenfranchise. Young men were drafted and sent to an illegal war.
DRAFTED !!! Not voluntary.
During Reagan, my first mortal age rate was 14.5%.

In 2009 I lost my job and due to a huge medical issue and couldn’t get another. We were paying$1000 insurance premium with $2000 deductible per person. We could not afford to pay the premiums let alone get to the deductible.

During that time we had to use up about 75% of our retirement to keep our house
And two cars. So he could get to work and I could look for work.

After 4 years of struggling I finally made it
to 62 to claim early SS making my monthly check now hundreds of dollars less than it would be if I could have waited to 66.

Our retirement has been profoundly effected. We can’t buy a small house. We have to rent. We’ll never have remotely the quality of life we might have had in these “golden” years.

Everyone is always in everything together. There’s not a group that has a particularly harder time unless you are a minority compounding all the problems by ten.

My story is no different than millions of others. We personally,are lucky we had any retirement savings. We’re lucky we made it through together because such pressures ruin marriages. We feel we are damn lucky
to survive our hard times. Damn lucky.

Amishman

(5,557 posts)
53. I really really suggest you educate yourself on the economic reality facing those under 40
Tue Apr 14, 2020, 02:07 PM
Apr 2020

We make less than previous generations thanks to inflation eating away at value while key early life costs have skyrocketed

In other words, all our adult lives so far, every major expense category has been rising fast than inflation... but our wages haven't



housing costs more, even after adjusting for inflation



as does education



and childcare

LakeArenal

(28,819 posts)
55. Just stop. Every generation has stuff
Tue Apr 14, 2020, 02:33 PM
Apr 2020

How the Great Inflation of the 1970s Happened
FACEBOOK
TWITTER
LINKEDIN
By LESLIE KRAMER
Updated Jul 7, 2019
It's the 1970s, and the stock market is a mess. It loses 50% in a 20-month period, and for close to a decade few people want anything to do with stocks.1 Economic growth is weak, which results in rising unemployment that eventually reaches double-digits.23 The easy-money policies of the American central bank, which were designed to generate full employment by the early 1970s also caused high inflation.45 The central bank, under different leadership, would later reverse its policies, raising interest rates to some 20%, a number once considered usurious.6 For interest-sensitive industries, such as housing and cars, rising interest rates cause a calamity. With interest rates skyrocketing, many people are priced out of new cars and homes.7

Initech

(100,079 posts)
45. The screwed generation.
Tue Apr 14, 2020, 12:12 PM
Apr 2020

Screwed by their parents' voting of the most inept, embarassing conservatives to call themselves leaders. The beatings will continue until morale improves.

Victor_c3

(3,557 posts)
50. I hate to say it, but becoming totally disabled has really been a blessing
Tue Apr 14, 2020, 01:23 PM
Apr 2020

My earnings will never be more than they are, but I live quite comfortably and with absolute income security. The only thing that I see that could take my income is a total collapse of our government and the Balkanization of our nation.

For what it’s worth, I was born in 1980.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
59. Actually, they have a good chance of being among the most fortunate
Tue Apr 14, 2020, 03:25 PM
Apr 2020

generations in all human history. I had it relatively easy growing up during the liberal New Deal era, able to drop out of high school, get one full-time low-skill job, and support myself modestly.

But the accelerating advances in production that mean less work and more prosperity were mostly still in the future. Nobody talked about a universal basic income when I was their age. And when I was raising my children, I used to look wistfully at things like big ceramic chickens, prohibitively expensive, that can now be picked up for $20.

Enormous income inequality has developed since I was a kid, even as planetary wealth has more than quadrupled. Maldistribution has to be corrected, but even so the average lifespan around the planet is now in the upper 70s (!) and the percentages of those condemned to lives of true, severe poverty have declined enormously, to 1% or so.

This is a good time to have a long future ahead.

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