Only 20% of patients intubated survive

[Blueplanet]

It means 80% of patients will die. I remember seeing that some doctors are now performing less of them.
They are using alternatives to deliver oxygen.

[Mosby]

1. No one knows

https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/coronavirus/article242008566.html

[dixiegrrrrl]

2. Worse yet, serious problems tend to result post-ventilator.

Read a Dr.'s warning of all the complications after the treatment, most related to serious heart issues.I

Good news is they have discovered lying on your stomach is often an effective way to increase oxygen saturation,
and some patients can avoid ventilators all together.

[spinbaby]

17. It's called proning

I have a friend who’s a respiratory therapist. She says they’ve had good luck with repositioning patients. She also keeps telling me to STAY THE F### HOME!

[dixiegrrrrl]

20. Did she say how long/ how often to stay prone?

Just found out my son has it, he's on the West Coast, I'm in the South.
I want to give him info. about this.

[spinbaby]

22. I'm sorry your son has it

I’m not in touch with my friend much nowadays because she’s working mandatory overtime, but she did say I should get used to lying on my stomach—that position apparently lets lungs expand more. Also something about a special bed that rotates patients, but I know nothing about that except she wants more of them. Sorry I can’t be more helpful.

[dixiegrrrrl]

23. I know the bed you mentioned.

They use it a lot for paraplegics, to avoid bed sores as well as help with breathing.

Very space age like.

[pattyloutwo]

3. Glad they're starting to change protocol

and put patients prone on stomachs. Read article in newspaper today. Sorry no link, don’t know original source of article.

[Recursion]

11. CPAP users often are asked to sleep on their stomachs

I don't know if that's particular to obstructive apnea or what.

[NutmegYankee]

24. I've never once heard that.

The machine works in any sleeping position.

[tblue37]

26. I have had overnight sleep tests twice. Both times they found I have sleep apnea, but

only when I sleep in my back, so since I can't tolerate my stupid CPAP machine, I just never sleep on my back anymore.

[NutmegYankee]

27. Makes sense from gravity.

But if you use the machine the positive pressure holds the throat open. I sleep on sides and back. I was never told to sleep on stomach, and I’m not sure I’d want to with a bad neck.

[Celerity]

4. a doctor on MSNBC a couple hours ago said the global literature shows 86% die after being intubated

[Igel]

5. There aren't many more ways.

It's a progression. You start with a bit of oxygen in a nose tube. Ramp that up. Blood-ox levels continue to drop, you move to face mask. Eventually the lungs aren't working well enough and blood oxygen levels fall to below 90% or so, and you intubate.

Many still don't reach the necessary blood oxygen levels even with intubation.

Not many easy alternatives. They can use a machine that draws blood, oxygenates it outside the body, and returns it, but those aren't the most common things on Earth and require close monitoring--meaning that they need additional staff.

This is where some of that Star Trek "tri-ox" or whatever would come in handy--one shot and your blood oxygen levels go up for a while. http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/Science-Fiction-News.asp?NewsNum=3689


Intubation is sort of nasty, though. Paralyze the lungs (don't want competition--that could cause damage); intubate, this tube going down your throat with gag reflexes and all. Then if you get anxious or agitated (gee, ya think) you're sedated. And you might stay on that for weeks, with a 20% chance of being able to actually be free.

[BGBD]

6. yeah, but

I believe good outcomes are generally pretty low for anyone suffering ARDS who are intubated.

[OhioChick]

7. Tracheotomies n/t

[dixiegrrrrl]

8. Not sure what you are meaning about trachs....

[OhioChick]

10. Just a quick search...

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamaotolaryngology/fullarticle/2764033

https://journals.lww.com/annalsofsurgery/Documents/Tracheotomy%20in%20ventilated%20patients%20with%20COVID19.pdf

You can probably find more.

[dixiegrrrrl]

21. Very interesting.

Thank you for the link, I will send it on.

[herding cats]

9. Intubation is prone to complications.

It's not a first round treatment choice, ever. The longer you're on the more risk there is for the patient. It's not something to take lightly under any circumstance.

[kentuck]

12. Sort of modern, like bleeding.

Breathe at the same rate and speed for days. Do not slow down the heart for rest. Force the oxygen into the patient. I could see problems with that. Probably does more damage than good? And I'm no doctor.

[mnhtnbb]

13. I think when this first started

and we were seeing stories based on China and Italy, that the anecdotal experience was about 50% survival rate from being placed on a ventilator. If so, this is really going the wrong direction to see only a 14-20% survival rate.

[Skidmore]

14. 15% of people

among new infections will die.

[Celerity]

15. where did you see that? that is 3 times higher than any of the highest mainstream lethality rates I

have heard. Most say 2.5 to 4.5%, with a few saying 5%

I think it is around 3 to 3.5% or so.

[Skidmore]

16. That stat was given

this morning on First Look on MSNBC when they did their morning review of illness and deaths. It was an eye opener.

[retread]

18. Unless there is universal testing those "stats" are meaningless.

[Hugin]

25. As intubation is a last resort, I'm not surprised at the high mortality rate.

You have to ask yourself how many of that 20% would have survived had the procedure not been done.

Don't confuse correlation with causation.

It's statistics.

[Zeus69]

28. As we learn more...

This excellent short video by the "Failing😏" NY Times shows the conundrum those on the front lines are facing regarding Covid 19 and indications for ventilation.

https://www.nytimes.com/video/us/100000007082510/coronavirus-treatment.html