"I never met a veteran who fought for socialism". Comebacks, please?

[elehhhhna]

Thanks in advance!

[Curtland1015]

1. I never met one who for himself.

[SharonAnn]

46. I never met one that fought for capitalism. They fought for freedom.

[immoderate]

2. George Orwell in the Spanish Civil War.

Didn't meet him though.

--imm

[Aristus]

11. How about the Abraham Lincoln Brigade?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln_Brigade

I suppose the guy who said this could fall back on "I said I never met a veteran who fought for socialism."

But I suspect he was trying to insinuate that such veterans didn't actually exists.

Tell him he's a shithead...

[zbdent]

22. They'll get their rationalizations in ...

like the birther I had to deal with.

He said Obama never showed his original birth certificate.

I told him the birther couldn't show me HIS ORIGINAL birth certificate. Only a copy.

The birther denied that, and then agreed that the ORIGINAL was down in Columbus (OH). But I HAD TO GO THERE TO SEE his birth certificate.

I wish I could have said to this a-hole "Well, you can go right to Hawaii and see Obama's for yourself, but you're too cheap to actually prove yourself wrong, and you don't want to prove yourself wrong anyway!"

[tama]

82. Orwell

fought in the anarchist brigades.

[patrice]

3. So they kill and die for money?

[RagAss]

4. One does not fight for Socialism...

Socialism is the natural order of mankind. One fights AGAINST fascism - an unnatural state of privilege over soul.

[PowerToThePeople]

10. funny arse sig.

I LoL'd reading it...

[RagAss]

12. ....

[upaloopa]

5. In WWII we fought along side with Russia a socialist state and we give them military aid before

we joined in the war.

[Marrah_G]

6. I know vets and enlisted people who are for a more socialist society

[HiPointDem]

7. The military is a socialist institution.

Does anyone disagree that the military is almost entirely government run? And if you agree to that obvious fact, when you attack all government run programs, aren't you by definition attacking the United States military?

And if there was any question about how socialist the army is, they removed all doubt when they adopted their last slogan: Army of One. That sounds positively communist. Why don't they just call it the collective? And in the US military everyone pledges to support one another no matter what. No one gets left behind. Everyone gets government provided housing, health care, and even government clothing. The military is the most socialist institution we have.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cenk-uygur/is-the-us-military-a-soci_b_252526.html

[PowerToThePeople]

15. More Stalinist imo

Socialism would mean the enlisted men would control the means of war.

[HiPointDem]

23. that would be communism. anyway, too much inside baseball.

[shintao]

67. Who do you think controls it?

Maybe I am confused by what you call the means. From the CIC on down the structure looks socialist to me. Just one big socialist program within our government.

[Xithras]

8. Ever meet a veteran who drew a pension?

Thereyago.

[CJCRANE]

9. Firstly, is he/she implying that Obama is a socialist?

Ask them to list Obama's socialist policies. Then ask a real socialist if the list is correct.

[cynatnite]

13. Are they saying that veterans fight for capitalism? n/t

[axollot]

14. The military is 100% tax payer funded. Making it exactly what they fought for...the interests of

it's government for and by the "people"

Semantics.

Cheers
Sandy

[sabrina 1]

16. The military is the biggest Socialist Program in the history of the world.

So every last veteran fought FOR and as a part of, one of the biggest Socialist institutions ever.

I thought right wingers loved our Socialist Military.

[patrice]

18. +1google

[patrice]

17. Or - So they kill and die for what money makes possible? What about what money prevents?

e.g. Take a look at our schools, real learning is gone, understanding doesn't matter, human development doesn't matter, arts are cut, machines rule, not people . . . all in the name of money.

e.g. You could be a saint upon whom very innocent very vulnerable people depend, but if you get sick without health insurance, or even with it actually, the costs of some cures don't give a rat's butt about what happens to you or to those who need you.

[Bonhomme Richard]

19. Why would they. The military is the most socialistic institution...

we have. He doesn't have to fight for it. He had it.

[tama]

31. Umm...

military is the most National socialistic institution. Big difference to what I guess the guy is thinking about and opposing, revolutionary international socialism. Commies, as they are often called.

[KT2000]

20. how about

" you're too stupid to even talk to."

[kentauros]

71. That comment overcame a mouthful of peanut butter!

[Marr]

21. I've never met one who didn't live off socialism.

Pension, free medical... a whole host of socialized benefits.

[otohara]

61. Thank You

For pointing out this ...
Education also!

[tama]

83. I know some

anti-statists who take nothing from state and avoid it like plague, and rely on social capital - friends - and other gifts of nature.

[Marr]

91. Well, points for consistency, but I've never met one of those.

[tama]

92. Yeah

Not all who claim to be anti-statists are so because they just want to exploit social capital for privatized capital. In fact, none of those are ever real anti-statists, those types always want to maintain at least a minimal night watchman state to enforce the exploitation of social and natural capital by privatized capital.

As for socialism and anti-statism, the pro-government shift that we see in this discussion is historically interesting. Remember that during First International and long time after, socialists were also anti-statists just like anarchists, socialists just believed that it was good idea for proletariat to take over states before moving into the anti-state state of communism/anarchy. Socialist statism was never supposed to be the end product, just interlude. The shift into socialist statism started gradually both with stalinism and social democratic reformism becoming more and more corrupted by the system it tried to change from inside.

[Confusious]

24. I never met a veteran who fought for Capitalism

It was always about freedom, mom, apple pie, democracy, and the right to determine your own destiny.

That destiny could have been socialism. It is kind of, democracy is inherently socialist. If you define socialism as everyone working for the common good.

Capitalism is inherently anti-democracy, since it puts power in the hands of a few. More totalitarian then anything.

[tama]

25. Go to Cuba

meet with Cuban veterans who fought in revolution and Bay of Pig.

If that's too international:
Meet an American veteran who was also a union member or organizer, member of a socialist party. In WW2 there were many Americans who fought for socialism, allied with socialist Soviet Union, against fascism. Oppenheimer was not a front soldier but he was a socialist who gave America the atom bomb.

Not very good comebacks, sorry. Revolutionary socialists shouldn't be fighting any nationalistic wars but organizing global general strike to gain freedom from capitalist oppression...

[villager]

26. Smedley Butler?

n/t

[orpupilofnature57]

34. +1000

Saved us from enslavement, for a little while.

[GaYellowDawg]

27. Reply: I never met a Republican who actually knew what socialism actually was.

Alternatives:

I never met a veteran who fought for conservatism.

I never met a veteran who fought for corporations.

I never met a veteran who fought for tax cuts for the wealthy.

[orpupilofnature57]

33. +1000

[Tennessee Gal]

45. Bingo! We have a winner! nt

[LibertyLover]

86. Having gotten the same photo and caption

posted on my Facebook page by one of my younger and more stupid cousins, I'm going to borrow one or two of your comebacks. Thanks!

[2on2u]

28. I've met veterans who fought because of the lies of a president, fought to keep union workers in

line, fought to prevent oil from being sold for euros and fought to prevent Russia from obtaining a warm water port. Socialism? Not so much.

[patrice]

39. "fought the lies"? or fought for the lies? How can you fight the lies if you have to obey or else?

Sorry, I'm confused about your point.

[2on2u]

44. Fought because of the lies of a president, edited to correct. Thanks for the heads up. n/t

[patrice]

59. Veteran here. Not combat. Just during the Persian Gulf War in an

air-refueling group, so I was having a hard time picturing any of our guys saying anything about lies coming out of Washington.

[Lucy Goosey]

29. Obama is not a socialist. Period.

What more would you need?

[shintao]

68. Becoming aware of what Socialism is.

The best evidence of this was when Obama gave trillions to the top Elite to stimulate the economy, instead of putting it into the hand of the voters/citizens who put him in office. How many times do capitalist have to see that trickle down is a myth and doesn't work. The money in the hands of 300 million people spending in their local areas on American made products is how you stimulate an economy.

The money would have come in the form of script that could only be used to buy American products, could not be spent outside of America, could not be deposited or used to invest, and would have had to be spent within 1 year of issue. The money reaching the business would have turned it over to banks who would have received a 3% handling fee to send it back to the federal reserve to be exchanged for green backs again.

[orpupilofnature57]

30. Maybe a soldier that finds themselves living on

the street?

[veganlush]

32. I never met one who

DIDN'T. The military itself is socialism. It's government-run, tax payer supported protection that benefits all equally. And what about social security, no soldier ever fought for that? Public school, libraries, NASA, the CDC, etc, etc,

[meow2u3]

35. I never met a veteran who fought for fascism n/t

[elleng]

36. "Veterans surely fight for their healthcare,

which SOME might call 'socialism.'"

[Triloon]

37. Here's one, and should never be forgotten.

link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wesley_Everest

[orpupilofnature57]

40. Wobblies kept us from enslavement.

[earthside]

38. Even Rmoney is arguing the military is welfare!

It’s Not Just a Job. It’s a Jobs Program.
Romney’s ads against military cuts promise more jobs through government spending.
By William Saletan

Slate - September 7, 2012

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2012/09/romney_s_ads_against_defense_cuts_treat_military_spending_as_a_jobs_program_.html

So, the military is a make-work jobs program these days.

Of course, most of us already know that.

But really, how ridiculous ... WWII soldiers weren't fighting for the American way of life in the 1940s that by then included Social Security (a 'socialist' program according to conservatives). And Iraq and Afghanistan soldiers weren't fighting allegedly for our American lifestyle that includes union rights, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, small business loans from the government, etc?

[ErikJ]

41. You might be a socialist if:

You might be a socialist if you ever had to call the police.

You might be a socialist if you ever summoned the fire department.

You might be a socialist if you ever drove your car on a public street or walked on a public sidewalk.

You might be a socialist if you use a municipal sewer service.

You might be a socialist if you get your water from a public water system.

You might be a socialist if you get your electric power from a public utility district.

You might be a socialist if you ever use a public library.

You might be a socialist if you have ever or plan to ever accept a social security check.

You might be a socialist if you use or plan to use Medicare or Medicaid.

You might be a socialist if you or your children attended public school.

You might be a socialist if you ever ride public transit.

You might be a socialist if your bank account is insured by the FDIC.

You might be a socialist if your or a member of your family went to college on a government subsidized student loan.

You might be a socialist if you ever took a trip on AMTRAK.

You might be a socialist if you ever needed the services of a fire department ambulance and EMT.

You might be a socialist if you have sent or received mail via the US Post Office.

You might be a socialist if you were ever represented in a legal matter by a public defender.

You might be a socialist if you ever referred a child to a child welfare office for protection.

You might be a socialist if you ever used electric power produced by Federally built dams.

You might be a socialist if you ever filed suit in a Federal, County, or City court.

You might be a socialist if you ever used a Federal, state, or city park.

You might be a socialist if you have ever used a public swimming pool.

You might be a socialist if you ever sought the help of a government official in solving a problem.

You might be a socialist if you ever benefited from the government regulation of private business.

You might be a socialist if you have benefited from the services of the CDC, FAA, FTSB, or other government agency.

You might be a socialist if your rights and safety have ever been defended by the armed forces.

You might be a socialist if you or a family member has ever been rescued by the Coast Guard or National Guard.

You might be a socialist if an airplane you flew on was guided to a safe landing by an air traffic controller.

You might be a socialist if felons in your area are placed in prison and the criminally insane in asylums.

You might be a socialist if you use the internet, a system developed originally by the U.S. military and scientific groups.

You might be a socialist if you have benefited in any way from research conducted by public universities.

You might be a socialist if you or any of your family have attended a public university or community college.

You might be a socialist if local public employees have cleared your streets of snow, picked up your litter, repaired potholes, or
any of hundreds of other necessary tasks.

You might be a socialist if a local municipal garbage service has carried off your trash and your recyclables

You might be a socialist if state or local forestry workers have fought forest fires and maintained healthy forests in your area.

You might be a socialist if state and federal fishery workers have tried to save endangered salmon so you can continue to eat
them.

You might be a socialist if you have been involved in a natural disaster and received help from a federal or state disaster relief
programs.

You might be a socialist if you have ever supported the passage of a law that requires or bans activities by your fellow citizens
which respectively benefit or harm you.

You might be a socialist if you own or work for any business that receives government subsidies or receives tax breaks for
locating in particular areas.

You might be a socialist if you attend your favorite pro team’s games in their partially tax funded parks, stadium, or arena.

You might be a socialist if you attend the games of a state college athletic team.

You might be a socialist if you invest in government securities like savings bonds or T bills.

You might be a socialist if you are a public employee.

You might be a socialist if you accepted the tax write off for buying a new home recently offered by the government.

You might be a socialist if you acquired a new car under the Cash for Clunkers program.

You might be a socialist if you have ever supported the document which begins: “We the people of the United States, in order to
form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general
welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United
States of America.”

In short, you might be a socialist if you accept any service, program, or benefit that is supported in whole or in part by tax
money.

I’m sure all those good folks protesting government programs like health care because they are socialistic will lead by example
and forswear using all of the above socialistic agenda items and any others that may have been omitted.

http://blog.oregonlive.com/myoregon/2009/09/you_might_be_a_socialist.html

[JHB]

42. Vehement Republicans assure me that economic policies identical to...

...those of the good o'l USA during the Cold War are socialism, Marxism, and/or Communism.

So it's a bait and switch question (or more likely, he's an ignorant dumbass): fighting for Freedom during the Cold War was - according to Republicans - fighting for socialism.

[eqfan592]

43. I believe the city of Milwaukee had a socialist mayor who both fought and died for his country.

I'll see if I can dig up the name.

EDIT: Oops, looks like that mayor was a Democrat. It was his brother who was a socialist and who became mayor of Milwaukee later on.

[JHB]

75. Doesn't matter. The guy probably thinks Democrat = socialist n/t

[Island Blue]

47. I never met a veteran

who hasn't received assistance of some kind from the VA. (Not that there's anything wrong with that, of course.)

[grantcart]

48. Have you ever met a veteran of

England,
France,
Canada,
Australia,
New Zealand

or (and this one will make him stop and pause)

I could name all of the other developed countries in the world but how about we stop at Israel?

[all american girl]

49. If you know a military member and they fought, they fought for their own socialism

We have: healthcare, housing (or housing allowance), commissary, PX, retirement pay after 20 yrs

soldiers also have: food allowance, clothing allowance

That's all I can think of right now. We are told that's part of being in the military, but it's all provided by the government, paid for by all of you....and Thank you

Looks like socialism to me

[WinkyDink]

52. You are welcome!

[RedCappedBandit]

62. Perfect response. Thank YOU. nt

[bhikkhu]

50. I've never met a person who could define socialism

...works for me.

[WinkyDink]

51. "I never met a Republican who wanted veterans to have any benefits."

[southernyankeebelle]

53. Well if he was in the military he is getting government housing, government mess halls

and the peach government health care. They get all that free and when they marry they get government housing for their families. They don't pay electric or water bills. If the retire they get a government pension and government health care.

[qazplm]

54. few things more socialist in America than the military

our pay is equalized by time and rank without regard to merit, we get free health and dental care, we get paid for food, a good chunk of our pay is tax free, the list goes on and on.

[sakabatou]

55. How about those that want social socurity to work as it has been for decades?

[dogman]

56. The GI Bill

The RW considered that socialism according to Lawrence O'Donnell

[jody]

57. I have but they are vets from Cuba, China, and North Vietnam. nt

[shintao]

58. I'm a socialist Vietnam Combat Veteran

I am a socialist, a Vietnam combat veteran 67-68', two purple hearts, two bronze battle stars, and the Gallantry Cross, honorable discharge. Now you have met one. I am mainly a socialist because of Vietnam, where I became a humanitarian and concerned with the condition of the poor. I spent another 10 years in the POW/MIA movement, helped build the California Vietnam Memorial, and have worked with veterans with PTSD and related problems. And I am a retired and proud Uinon member of the streel trade that built this nation.

If this country was Socialist we would not be the greatest debtor nation in the Universe, indebted to socialists. We would not have homeless on our streets, unproductive masses of people homeless and otherwise. Capitalism has killed this country and cannot fix itself. Socialism is the only way to save it. Like nuclear power, people were taught to fear socialism instead of embrace it. And capitalists will arrogantly spend trillions and trillions trying to make capitalism work, while socialist country's walk right past us, avoid wars and deaths and maiming of our troops for oil.

I could put this country together in a year, and on a path to prosperity by using socialist programs, and eliminating the greed and arrogance of the private sector. But capitalists will never let that happen. Finally, anyone thinking Obama is a socialist needs another pint of koolaide.

[yardwork]

88. Thank you for your service. I'm proud to meet you online.

[RedCappedBandit]

60. How do vets get paid?

[WooWooWoo]

63. Our military (which I am apart of) is a socialist construct fighting to preserve capitalist ideals

To give examples....

My housing is provided by the government.

My food is paid for by the government.

My clothing is paid for by the government.

My pay check is paid for by the government.

My health care is provided for by the government.

My wife's health care is provided for by the government.

My life insurance is provided for by the government.

My college education (can be now if I want) paid for by the government.

When I get out, my tuition at college will be provided for by the government.

When I get out, I will receive unemployment provided by the government.

When I get out, I will receive an underwritten zero interest-zero down home loan provided by the government.

When I get out, I will receive disability payments provided by the government.


I got all of this by agreeing to a socialist contract with the government. If I had stayed in the private sector...

My paycheck would be provided by my employer.

My healthcare might be provided by my employer.

Everything else would be dependent on that paycheck.

[kestrel91316]

64. This would be a non sequiter. Not relevant to anything that I know of.

[Tom Rinaldo]

65. Plenty of Vets fought to preserve "The American Way" which is a mixed sector economy

Vets fought for an America that offers Public Eductation, has National Parks, Munincipal Water Systems, State Universities, Social Security, Medicare, Public Libraries, Federal Deposit Insurance for personal band accounts, etc. etc. etc.

[mick063]

66. I sure as hell didn't fight for Romney's vision

More like Franklin Roosevelt's vision.


I dunno.

Is that Socialist?

According to FOX, my center-right mother is Socialist. I guess anyone that doesn't cow tow to Fox is Socialist.


Does the capture General Noriega campaign count?

I have lost track of what counts.

[The Second Stone]

69. I once met a man named George Kaye

He fought for socialism in the Abraham Lincoln brigade. He fought against fascism.

People have fought for all sorts of causes and countries. The worst American war ever had one side fighting for the right to enslave black people. As crappy a cause as there ever was.

I should note that I am against socialism or communism, because they do not work as government frameworks. They are well intentioned ideas whose implementations are can be just as bad as pure capitalism or any other "ism" taken to an extreme.

[craigmatic]

70. Yet they all get free healthcare and a government check for fighting and free perks as well as free

burials and funeral services. No vets don't fight for socialism at all . My father was a vet by the way and we got the free services for his funeral and headstone. Socialism is a stange thing. The people who need it don't get it and the people who get it don't recognize it when it's right under their noses.

[Honeycombe8]

72. If veterans get retirement benefits (money & medical), then yes, they fought for social programs.

Social programs, so the wingnuts say, are socialism.

[muriel_volestrangler]

73. Kurt Vonnegut

http://www.progressive.org/mag_intv0603

[eridani]

74. The army isn't socialist--it is a communist dictatorship

Food, clothing, housing, health care and all professional tools provided by the nanny state, which in turn directly supervises the majority of members' lives and how they spend most of their time.

[sendero]

76. Pretty much everyone I hear...

... whining about "socialism" is a moron who will be begging for more socialism in the coming years.

Probably not useful but that is what I think.

[eridani]

77. Ask them whether they think that America was a capitalist country in 1955

If they agree that it was, say that to get away from current socialism, we obviously have to go back to the 91% top tax rate in effect then to restore capitalism. And if they don't like that, tell them to stay the fuck off of the interstate highway system, which was made possible by those tax rates.

[alc]

78. fought for freedom for us to elect leaders

and that includes the freedom to elect socialists, communists, fascists, or anyone else. Thanks to many veterans we still get to vote and we can elect whoever we want, then throw them out next time if we find out we were wrong.

"we" don't take our voting responsibilities seriously, and I'm fine with a veteran being pissed at how little voters pay attention and how much ads can sway them since they don't know the issues or candidates. But veterans shouldn't be pissed that we have the right to do that and that we may elect someone the veteran disagrees with.

[LanternWaste]

79. "I've never met a veteran who fought for vulture capitalism and the deregulation of derivatives"

"I've never met a veteran who fought for vulture capitalism and the deregulation of derivatives..."

[grattsl]

80. but I know plenty that take advantage of the VA, and the GI bill!

Both of which are government sponsored programs (translates to socialist in a RW world.)

[hobbit709]

81. I never met a veteran who fought for fascism.

[MrScorpio]

84. Every soldier understands that the military is a socialistic organization

http://www.socialism.com/drupal-6.8/?q=node/1566

Soapbox
The “socialist” benefits of life in the military
Jason Combs
February 2011

Unshouldering my briefcase, loosening the knot on my tie, plopping myself down in a wheely office chair and cracking open the blinds in a tiny cubicle in corporate Tokyo, I look out the window and yearn to escape the office and be outside. How did I ever get here? I never finished formal education. I skipped around from service jobs to factories and spent four years in the U.S. military. Got married, “settled down” and here I am. I put on a cheap suit every morning like a business man, take the commuter train, and work with a pen and a PC instead of with my body.

Looking out that window there are times I miss being in the military. Most of my coworkers are white, educated and hail from upper-middle-class or well-off families. I miss working in greasy coveralls with people from all over the world, all of them working-class. I miss being able to speak freely and act naturally in-stead of watching my tongue and carefully choosing my words in an office environment.

[joeybee12]

85. I never met a veteran who fought for fascism...

Which is what Repukes want.

[jillan]

87. haHAHAHAHAH! Just the fact that he is a Veteran means they support Socialism!

The government signs their paychecks.
The government pays their retirements.
The government pays for their healthcare.

The government pays for their clothing while in combat.

The government provides cheaper housing for their families when they are deployed.

The government offers them discounted college education.
The government helps them get jobs - esp the Post Office.


And the government should - Veterans deserve all this and more.

But, the day they sign up to be a soldier, is the day they become an employee of the government.

[yardwork]

89. Howard Zinn. WWII combat veteran, bombardier. Socialist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Zinn

[KinMd]

90. Vets fought for the guy next to them...

I'm not a vet, but have several in my family, and the mom and apple pie and girl next door show all nice, but wwahthtey most worry about is not letting down the guys fighting with tem

[deutsey]

93. Just heard an interview with Brian Castner, author and Iraq War vet

He basically said what you say here.

[pinboy3niner]

98. Exactly

In combat, the only thing on your mind is the survival of yourself and your comrades.

[2ndAmForComputers]

94. Everybody who shot at the Nazis during WWII fought for Socialism.

Since they were, at least indirectly, contributing to the continued existence of the USSR.

And to the later establishment of a peaceful, welfare-state Western Europe afterwards.

[deutsey]

95. Right wingers call FDR a socialist and the New Deal socialism

WWII happened during the FDR presidency.

Therefore, using right-wing "logic", all WWII vets fought for socialism.

[quaker bill]

96. This person apparently has not been to Russia

There were quite a few veterans who i believe carried a significant part of the load in WWII.

[haele]

97. The US Military is the oldest and largest Socialist organizations in the US

1. Guaranteed regular meals, housing, and appropriate clothing.
2. Guaranteed vacation and holiday hours, wages and supplemental pay as required, re-enlistment bonuses and opportunities for promotion, no matter what work level they are actually at - even if there's "nothing to do" for six months, they get full pay, supplemental wages.
3. Guaranteed training and further educational opportunities.
3. Guaranteed pension and employment benefits.
4. Access to Single payer health-care for you and your dependents. Sick leave as needed.
5. Regulations - lots of them - outlining operational processes, safety requirements, and personnel activities.
6. Taxpayer-funded recreational opportunities (low-cost tickets and travel agency, gyms, bowling alleys, sports rentals - including boats - theaters, hotels, camping areas) and family benefits, including family housing, schools, moving expenses and daycare. Taxpayer funded/Sales-tax-free (in most cases) low-cost shopping and grocery locations (Imagine a strip-mall with a Sears and a major full-service grocery store with Walmart pricing and no local sales taxes...)
7. Retire after 20 years - so you can potentially retire at 38 years of age! - with full pension, health-care, and residual benefits such as access to most base services, low-cost loans for housing and businesses, advanced education tuition payments, insurance and death benefits.

All this for putting up with months of boredom interspersed with a few hours of adrenaline-fueled panic.

Sounds very socialist to me. The veteran didn't have to fight for socialism, he just engaged in it while he was active duty.

Now, the caveat is that you do have to maintain the standards required to get into this wonderful organization, and you have to meet the goals they set for you and be able to advance, but most young people who join have the capability to enjoy all these benefits if they can make the 20 year mark without screwing up.

Haele (Veteran and History buff...)