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jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
Sat Sep 15, 2012, 03:30 AM Sep 2012

Do you know who kills over symbolic offenses?

Gangs. Criminal gangs.

If you wear the wrong color shirt on the wrong street. If you insult the honor of a gang member.

These kinds of gangs are not unique to the Middle East. You can find the same kinds of gangs in LA, NY and a lot of places in between.

It's not as if we don't have people in the US who kill over symbolic insults.

38 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Do you know who kills over symbolic offenses? (Original Post) jberryhill Sep 2012 OP
Well said...EOM physioex Sep 2012 #1
Imagine an entire country filled with Crips left on green only Sep 2012 #2
Oh, you mean Beiruit ProgressiveProfessor Sep 2012 #13
And the U.S. government. Luminous Animal Sep 2012 #3
+1000 Hugabear Sep 2012 #4
But that's okay, see? Scootaloo Sep 2012 #10
Killing over pieces of colored cloth, or fictional characters - humanity's chosen insanity! n/t backscatter712 Sep 2012 #5
Oh, please. You're comparing people who we've fucked up for decades with cali Sep 2012 #6
The neighborhoods the Crips come from haven't been fucked up for decades? Really? GaYellowDawg Sep 2012 #28
An American blew up a building in Oklahoma and killed a bunch of people, including kids, over MADem Sep 2012 #7
And he was a White Guy M_M Sep 2012 #12
Really we should ask: what did we do to offend him 4th law of robotics Sep 2012 #38
wait for more info instead of making assumptions... dtom67 Sep 2012 #8
Right. There is a video that looks like a planned attack with trucks and JDPriestly Sep 2012 #9
It might also appear as if both ideas of what is behind the violence are correct. left on green only Sep 2012 #20
Rachel Maddow's theory is plausible. JDPriestly Sep 2012 #21
Good question? left on green only Sep 2012 #23
Christian Extremists lobodons Sep 2012 #11
Fanatics; religious, political or otherwise nt MrScorpio Sep 2012 #14
Think of all the tourism money they could be raking in! socialindependocrat Sep 2012 #15
Very true jsr Sep 2012 #16
Interesting point, and it is truly part of the groups identity, and formal course of action. braddy Sep 2012 #17
crazy fucking assholes that ought to be locked up? trouble.smith Sep 2012 #18
A thought BlueinOhio Sep 2012 #19
Islam is inherent tribalistic, though. joshcryer Sep 2012 #22
can a tribal religion proselytize? BOG PERSON Sep 2012 #29
Terrorists are nothing but gangs meow2u3 Sep 2012 #24
i thought this was an Al-Qaeda revenge attack for killing their latest #2 guy BOG PERSON Sep 2012 #25
That does not further the MEME BP. Reality is not allowed to intrude in political discussions today Vincardog Sep 2012 #30
I have not thought about this. I don't know anything about gangs. nt patrice Sep 2012 #26
i'm in a gang BOG PERSON Sep 2012 #31
True. And when they do, do people fall all over themselves to rationalize, justify & 'explain' it? Warren DeMontague Sep 2012 #27
+1. Especially when the violence kills a person whose not involved in that gang war riderinthestorm Sep 2012 #34
and crazy zealots. nt ladjf Sep 2012 #32
I'd hardly call gangs religious. L0oniX Sep 2012 #33
There are certainly parallels between the Middle Eastern fanatics and the Bloods/Crips. Nye Bevan Sep 2012 #35
So the point is both groups are despicable former-republican Sep 2012 #36
When gangs kill people we don't blame the people who provoked them 4th law of robotics Sep 2012 #37

left on green only

(1,484 posts)
2. Imagine an entire country filled with Crips
Sat Sep 15, 2012, 03:43 AM
Sep 2012

That's OK, a long time ago I used to dream about being a Jet and winding up with Natalie Wood. Godamn Robert Wagner. Now it will never happen.

ProgressiveProfessor

(22,144 posts)
13. Oh, you mean Beiruit
Sat Sep 15, 2012, 09:12 AM
Sep 2012

A bit more complex than that but the muslims factions which have been at each others throats there for quite some time.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
10. But that's okay, see?
Sat Sep 15, 2012, 05:52 AM
Sep 2012

Because the US government isn't Muslim. It's only murder and mayhem when "those people" do it, you know.

GaYellowDawg

(4,449 posts)
28. The neighborhoods the Crips come from haven't been fucked up for decades? Really?
Sun Sep 16, 2012, 05:35 PM
Sep 2012

I'm pretty sure most of the people in those neighborhoods would disagree with the idea that they hadn't been fucked over by our society.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
7. An American blew up a building in Oklahoma and killed a bunch of people, including kids, over
Sat Sep 15, 2012, 04:32 AM
Sep 2012

perceived "affronts."

He wasn't a gang member, though he had a few like-minded associates. He did kill a lot of people who had nothing to do with his particular, warped gripes.

 

4th law of robotics

(6,801 posts)
38. Really we should ask: what did we do to offend him
Sun Sep 16, 2012, 10:59 PM
Sep 2012

what rights could we dispose of so people like him would love us again?

Clearly it couldn't be his fault. We provoked him in some way and if we have to forfeit some rights so that won't happen again so-be-it.

dtom67

(634 posts)
8. wait for more info instead of making assumptions...
Sat Sep 15, 2012, 05:03 AM
Sep 2012

Seems to me like all the eye-witness accounts point to this being a planned terrorist strike, not just a mob gone wild. What I have heard is that several truck loads of men showed up at the consulate flying black flags and sporting automatic rifles and grenade launchers( or maybe RPG 's ). That's not how I would equip myself for a protest.
The distinction is important because if it is characterized as mob violence, that makes it easier for chicken hawks to lay the blame on the Libyan people . If this was a planned terrorist attack, it is clear that our target should be the individuals responsible, as well as the organization(s) that were involved.

anybody hear anything different about what happened?

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
9. Right. There is a video that looks like a planned attack with trucks and
Sat Sep 15, 2012, 05:18 AM
Sep 2012

well-armed people. There are also people climbing in and starting fires, but the whole thing looks coordinated. Time will tell. More facts will emerge.

left on green only

(1,484 posts)
20. It might also appear as if both ideas of what is behind the violence are correct.
Sat Sep 15, 2012, 08:09 PM
Sep 2012

I have been following the coverage of these events as provided by Rachel Maddow, and it is her contention (if I am following her correctly) that there are actually two different forces, or groups of people at work; at least there are in the events occurring in Libya.

She has pointed out in various video footage that one group is of the common, unorganized masses, who appear to possess less than inspiring intelligence, and who are angry at the USA in general. They are just looking for a reason to beat buildings with sticks and burn cars. Distant news of an offensive movie trailer has given them pause to do so.

The other group is comprised of actual terrorists who have an affiliation with "Al Cyda" (you all remember Al, right?) and whose intent it is is to wage G-String against the USA. They are the ones with the hand held rocket launchers, and the plastic bombs, and the flame throwers who are intentionally trying to level entire buildings and kill people.

Beyond the limits of Libya, it is also her contention that the violence towards U.S. facilities that is simultaneously occurring in other 14 countries (and counting), is solely the work of the common masses, who are not organized. Their motivation is similar to their counterpart in Libya.

Like you say, "Time will tell."

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
21. Rachel Maddow's theory is plausible.
Sun Sep 16, 2012, 05:46 AM
Sep 2012

But the killers were heavily armed and organized. The mass of angry people probably would not have killed Stevens by themselves even if they had made their way into part of the compound.

I recall that the first reports said that Stevens had died of smoke inhalation. Has that been confirmed?

left on green only

(1,484 posts)
23. Good question?
Sun Sep 16, 2012, 03:29 PM
Sep 2012

I haven't heard a word since those first reports that said Stevens died of smoke inhalation. The report that I heard also intimated that the three others who also died, did so while trying to protect him, and that they also died of smoke inhalation.

 

lobodons

(1,290 posts)
11. Christian Extremists
Sat Sep 15, 2012, 06:19 AM
Sep 2012

We have religious wingnut killers here in America as well. Scott Roeder (Dr. Tiller's killer) quickly came to mind. These people even put up websites complete with pictures and address's of others who should be killed for religious/symbolic reasons.

socialindependocrat

(1,372 posts)
15. Think of all the tourism money they could be raking in!
Sat Sep 15, 2012, 12:20 PM
Sep 2012

Oh well, if you want to blow of steam over an insult to you religion - go for it...

I guess.

BlueinOhio

(238 posts)
19. A thought
Sat Sep 15, 2012, 05:57 PM
Sep 2012

My son mentioned something last night that made me wonder. 4 people died because of riots but more than that is killed in almost any of America's big cities and there is no outrage about that.

joshcryer

(62,276 posts)
22. Islam is inherent tribalistic, though.
Sun Sep 16, 2012, 05:51 AM
Sep 2012

We can't forget the tribal nature of Islam.

Still, it doesn't merit the broad brush hate that Muslims have to endure. There are more than a billion Muslims in the world. The rioters make up perhaps a percent of a percent of a percent of those Muslims.

BOG PERSON

(2,916 posts)
29. can a tribal religion proselytize?
Sun Sep 16, 2012, 05:38 PM
Sep 2012

islam is easy enough to convert to, it's exclusivist but it's not *exclusive*. i would describe it as more feudal than tribal (otoh that would describe basically every major religion)

meow2u3

(24,766 posts)
24. Terrorists are nothing but gangs
Sun Sep 16, 2012, 05:19 PM
Sep 2012

The only difference among street gangs, organized crime, and terrorism are its motives.

Street gangs and the mob have similar motives: profiting from illegal activity, such as drugs, prostitution, gambling, etc. Killing is part of enforcing their control of the illegal activity. If innocent people are killed during a gang war, it is secondary to gunning down their targets.
Terrorists' motives are largely political; they want to force governments to do their bidding, even if innocent people get killed.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
27. True. And when they do, do people fall all over themselves to rationalize, justify & 'explain' it?
Sun Sep 16, 2012, 05:34 PM
Sep 2012

No. They say "That is fucking INSANE, what the hell is wrong with those people?"

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
34. +1. Especially when the violence kills a person whose not involved in that gang war
Sun Sep 16, 2012, 08:52 PM
Sep 2012

There's no attempt to justify that or get people to "understand" gang violence. They're simply condemned by society full stop.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
35. There are certainly parallels between the Middle Eastern fanatics and the Bloods/Crips.
Sun Sep 16, 2012, 10:10 PM
Sep 2012

Thanks for pointing that out.

 

4th law of robotics

(6,801 posts)
37. When gangs kill people we don't blame the people who provoked them
Sun Sep 16, 2012, 10:58 PM
Sep 2012

"You should have known not to wear plaid on that side of town, really it's your fault for provoking them".

Nor do we argue for restrictions on how you can dress to limit such events.

"yes freedom of expression is nice, but really shouldn't be ban all plaid clothing? There's clothing and then there's aggressive hate-clothing. Do we really want to live in a world where any idiot can go and by a plaid outfit?"

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