It isn't the movie. It's imperial power stripping the status of adulthood from people--

[eridani]

--who live in a part of the world that the empire wants to control for its oil. In every single human culture, you gain adult stature by the ability to nurture and protect your children. You are stripped of that stature when an outside dominating force kills whenever and whomever they want, and imposes whatever governments they want. This has been going on since 1953, when Britain and the US overthrew the SECULAR government of Iran.

Any cultural artifact that rubs your face in your utter helplessnes can turn into a flashpoint for unpredictable violence.

[The Magistrate]

1. No, Ma'am, It Is People Taking their Religious Beliefs Much Too Seriously

[orpupilofnature57]

5. It is, People taking violent action, Fundies are Demented

but living in our country with only 10 yrs of gradual oppression, as opposed to 60 and the fact Mohammad is more violent than Jesus, and by the same irony after all our Wars Christians are more violent than Muslims ,in the end people don't listen to even their God's when they're oppressed .

[eridani]

51. And why do you think that Shrubby had a 90% approval rating after 9/11?

Because being attacked empowers the most vicious and reactionary elements in any society. Why would the Middle East be different?

[greytdemocrat]

12. Agreed. nt

[HiPointDem]

48. said the representative of the occupying force

[NutmegYankee]

64. Which part of Egypt, Libya, or Tunis are we occupying? nt

[eridani]

50. Tribal in-group loyalty gave rise to religion, not the other way around n/t

[Warren DeMontague]

57. Shhh

Oh, you. Again, with stating the obvious.

[orpupilofnature57]

2. Good Point, the straw more than the cause.

[Zax2me]

3. Nice defense attempt.

They are still murderers.

[Scootaloo]

21. Your response reminds me of that quote often attributed to Stalin

"A Single Death is a Tragedy; a Million Deaths is a Statistic"

How many Iraqis have died since you and I elected to invade their nation? Yes, you and I, welcome to the responsibilities of democracy.
How many Afghans?
How many Iraqis did we kill in the Gulf War? How many died due to our sanctions that were, as Albright put it, "worth it"?
How many Iranians, Kuwaitis, and Kurds did we kill, by bankrolling Saddam Hussein in the first place?
How many Iranians did we kill by installing and bankrolling the Shah?
From Morocco to Pakistan, how many people have died or "disappeared" due to US interests?

You're right, the people who killed our foreign officers are murderers. But you don't get to be so fucking self-righteous about it. Your votes and your apathy - along with mine, and every other American here - have outweighed that death toll by at least a millionfold.

[malaise]

27. Well said

but remember we kill for freedom and democracy while they just kill or whateverthe fuck we spew to condemn it when they respond to our killing.

[Waiting For Everyman]

4. This is not the US's fault. Sorry, that won't fly.

Frankly, that's a pretty offensive argument to make. Americans are the ones killed, and the US did absolutely nothing to cause this. Let's not get too far down the doublethink rabbit hole.

[orpupilofnature57]

10. Whoops a daisy ,We don't give Iran any reason to hate

us? Watch those rose colored glasses, all the hoopla makes everyone a bit Touchy. Republicans Cheer and reject, Democrats See and accept, thats why http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/04/09/03_hard.html

[Waiting For Everyman]

15. Whoops a daisy, that's some lame blame shifting.

This time, it isn't the US that caused this. If we need to look at ourselves objectively then other nations must do the same. This isn't some kind of one-way game. It's real lives, and reality counts.

[orpupilofnature57]

16. I don't live in Iran or the rest of the world I

live here with you, I won't argue with them .

[choie]

34. This type of hatred toward the U.S.

does not occur in a vacuum. The movie may have ignited the violence, but the United States' aggression toward Muslim countries, is at the root of the hatred. This is not to excuse the murder and mayhem, but to understand it. If we don't look deeper, nothing will change.

[2on2u]

41. "If we don't look deeper nothing will change" the most cogent and sensitive statement I have

read in a long long time.

[Ship of Fools]

45. Thank you.

Last edited Sat Sep 15, 2012, 05:38 PM - Edit history (1)

Can I butt in? A nobody from the middle of a cornfield here--

1. My car was keyed because of an Obama 2008 bumpersticker.
2. Someone tried to attack me with their truck, while I was driving my beater, because of a DU bumpersticker.
3. Kansas is looking into taking PBO off the ticket.

All of this, plus a ton of other mind-numbing ignorance blasting on all cylinders in this cornfield, 24/7, has put me in a VERY.FOUL.MOOD, and I KNOW I am not alone.

So foul, in fact, that if the idea of taking PBO off the ticket doesn't resolve in a sane and
rational way, there's a good chance that more than a few normally rational people are going
to become very irrational and very angry. Angry mobs can lead to really dastardly,
dark places. Mind you, I am NOT, repeat, NOT making threats here. I am simply stating
how VERY ANGRY a person can become when they feel completely helpless. And if I understand
it, a lot of ME anger has to do with fucking FOOD, or lack thereof, let alone random attacks from
the fucking SKY.

I have to agree with you, Choie. This shit has been building up for years.

Go ahead, flame away. Getting used to it.

But mind you (if I may brag a bit), a close relative got a (the?) presidential scholarship a while back and
is now working at the Pentagon. Spent 4th of July hanging with the president! So, by all means,
call me uninformed, call me a fool, put me on ignore. BUT I'VE GOT FRONT ROW SEATS!!!!!!

Heh heh heh.

Edit: That would be *Presidential Fellow,* not Scholar--sorry. What do I know--just a
broken down prol in the middle of a cornfield.

[Kindly Refrain]

19. It's US foreign policy that caused this.

[Waiting For Everyman]

24. Ludicrous. A mob caused it. A mindless mob.

[Kindly Refrain]

35. Oh yeah, we are just skipping around the world with a basket full of rainbows

spreading sunshine and joy, where our footprints once were now there are daisies sprouting up. Wake the hell up.

[Waiting For Everyman]

38. Then why don't the protesters protest THAT? Are they unable to spell it?

If it's past or present imperialism that's the problem, or whatever-the-hell the pretext is that you're pushing, then why isn't that the theme of their protest? Are they shy? I don't think so.

[Kindly Refrain]

39. Who says they aren't?

"that you're pushing"? Paranoid much?

[Waiting For Everyman]

42. Ad hominum much?

And btw, I'm not interested in your critiques about which words I choose. You're done.

[Kindly Refrain]

43. Ooooooooooo

Clearly you are, you responded to my post.

[malaise]

28. Are you fugging serious? n/t

[2on2u]

29. I gues this wasn't our fault either, must have just had engine trouble.

[Waiting For Everyman]

31. This is about the riot, not some other topic.

A riot in the streets with goons trying to burn embassies and kill people. You want to give that a free pass, then I am going to simply disagree.

[2on2u]

33. Did I say anyone deserves a free pass? My point is that some of these people have had enough, this

didn't come out of nowhere, their actions are 200% wrong but perhaps they are to be expected.

[orpupilofnature57]

37. Every picture tells a story, Thanks.

[limpyhobbler]

6. That's true. It's just one way of looking at it. Somebody could write a book on it.

I don't think you're trying to say it's just that and there is nothing else going on, no other angles or issues. This issue of imperial power and human dignity is a real thing. There are a lot of things going on at the same time, lots of angles. It's much more complicated than "they are all a bunch of religious nuts". Although I also think a lot of them do take god too seriously too.

[NoPasaran]

7. Hard as it is for some people to believe

Not everything is the fault of the United States.

[orpupilofnature57]

13. And as a free citizen that Pays for the USA

it is our right and duty to recognize what is our governments fault, obviously we the people don't incite anything except for among ourselves, which is what we're doing right this second.

[slackmaster]

8. I'd take it back to the partitioning of the Ottoman empire after World War I

The British and French Mandates that artificially created the modern states of Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, and Palestine. And of course the creation of the modern state of Israel in 1948.

There is a whole lot more to it than post-World War II US policy.

[BlueMTexpat]

14. I concur for the most part.

The Balfour Declaration also dated from this period (1917). It served as the basis for the foundation of the state of Israel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration

As you say, the US role evolved after WWII.

[baldguy]

9. The idea of the "White Man's Burden" is alive and well.

[tama]

11. Hmm

Isn't that what is happening also in US and elsewhere in the "civilized world" - imperial power stripping the status of adulthood from people, so that we became and remain sheeple and materially and emotionally dependent "children" of the paternalistic imperial power?

[eridani]

52. Yes--but it's not to the point where they are taking out people with drones within our borders

When that happens, expect to see a real shitstorm.

[tama]

53. Not really

It's already Tyranny in every way that Jefferson warned about, latest development was freedom of peaceful assembly brutally suffocated. Resistance has gone largely underground and they are being hunted by grand jury, FBI infiltrators etc. etc.. But remember, that is not a sign of strength but sign of weakness. They are becoming more and more desperate and pitiful.

[nc4bo]

17. Just heard someone MSNBC used as an expert say

President Mohammed Morsi usied the "film" as an outlet for his own people's frustration, a deliberate attempt to deflect the discontent and frustration of Egypt's citizens from his administration to an external one, in this case the United States. Perhaps this was a catalyst that spread the protests.

Not arguing, just trying to understand it and appreciate when people, like you, put their observations and thoughts out there.

[moondust]

25. Other experts say that's what their old dictators did.

Hmmm...maybe blame shifting is a fairly common political tactic...

[HereSince1628]

18. The system's analogy that I'm working with is fire.

To have fire you must have fuel, air and an ignition source. It's not a perfect analogy. Analogies are never perfect. But because they are familiar they help us to understand things that are not so familiar. And it's very clear that there is much more going on than the simplistic claims that violence in 17 countries resulted simply from a movie insulting the prophet Mohammad.

I think that the west projecting its values onto muslims is part of the problem...and in the aftermath of Benghazi, using that projection to blame them for harboring what we see as over-reactionary radicals doesn't help solve anything. It's just more fuel...but I get ahead of my own analogy.

The rioting in the Arab world may have begun in one place as a reaction to the movie, but it certainly spread for other reasons...

The movie was like the picric acid on the tip of an old-style wooden kitchen match, volatile enough to go off with friction. That spark then touched off Muslim commentary which was shared publicly and condemned the movie...in the very same way that Rush Limbaugh reacts to his frustrations and spouts incendiary commentary...that rhetoric is like the sulfur on a match tip that burns long and hot enough to ignite the match stick proper that can then be applied to light fuel assembled to be burned.

There is some question as to whether Benghazi was a spontaneous combustible event, or the consequence of a planned action for 9/11.. Which in this analogy would be to say there is a question as to whether this was the act of arsonists. But I think we have to be cautious about quick interpretations that serve to reduce our own contributions to the combustible situation.

This incident burned over 17 countries around half the planet. Much more burned than one match. The fuel seems to be pent up resentment toward America and to some extent other nations of western Europe. When news spread about the outbreak in Benghazi 17 nations with large muslim populations experienced rioting or demonstrations against America.

To prevent such fires in the future America must become aware of the way that our foreign activity has aided in the construction and maintenance of that resentment. My mind is open to the idea that the American ambassador was actually involved in the work of improving relationships with the people of Libya in an attempt to reduce conflagrations. We can see his death as an act of aggression and make jingoistic noises about going to war to punish people who don't hold our image of ourselves, or we can see it as the danger of cleaning up a flammable environment...work that must still go forward if the risk of fire is to ever be controlled.

[Dustlawyer]

20. It's the right on both sides, coupled with us overthrowing the Democratically elected

Government of Iran and 1952 or 53 for cheap oil, and installing The Shah of Iran as a brutal dictator who killed millions of his own people. If some Muslim had mad a movie of Christ like this one was of Muhammad, we would be seeing Muslim hate crimes spike here as well. We would have defended their Embassies better though! Oil, politics and religion are not good mixes. We must first know the history before we judge, but everyone needs to back off a little!

[joeybee12]

22. You're right...it's appalling that most DU'ers aren't getting this...knr

[caseymoz]

23. Except they would have killed any local

. . . making a movie like this, or even making a blasphemous statement against The Prophet. The only difference is the mob can't stone the whole US to death in one single action so it persists.

And it was an Egyptian Coptic Christian who was the driving force behind the film. For us, of course, it's a matter of free speech, which the mobs won't understand. No, you can't just murder somebody because he insulted your favorite historical figure.

Sorry, a few conflicts between the US and the Islamic nations have nothing to do with Imperialism, except for the fact that the world is now much smaller, and whatever is said over here is heard over there.

There no excuse for these mobs' behavior. They are simply going to have to get used to an age where someone can say anything they want over the Internet, and it's not the fault of the nation the person is in, and our government can't do anything about it. Ultimately, The Prophet is simply going to have to fend for himself in a public forum without fanatical goons who need to think their murderous impulses are divinely inspired.

Either the Prophet and God are going to have to do something to squelch free speech directly, or these mobs are going to have to get used to being angry all the time. They're going to get exhausted. Rage is not a good state to be in to carry on the necessary things for living, like farming, like trade (the movie 28 Days Later made that point), or even pious worship.

Oh, by the way, you made the very argument Romney accused Obama of making, and it would have been shameful to make it. This time, US imperialism has nothing to do with it. This is a major cultural clash. Addressing US imperialism here will do nothing to help the problem.

[slackmaster]

26. I think they really don't understand that our laws don't provide for any kind of punishment...

...for the parties who produced the silly video.

[caseymoz]

30. And you're right about that.

However, if they understood the First Amendment and our tradition of free speech, I don't think they'd be very accommodating about it. They'd likely feel threatened. It's something alien to them and their religion says blasphemers against God and/or the Prophet must die. They're not in an environment where they faith is subjected to any criticism, and it's shocking to them.

In which case, I say welcome to the Internet and give them a tour of some Atheism forums.

[BB1]

32. This has US Imperialism written all over it.

You're wrong.

8 years ago, Theo van Gogh was murdered. Broad daylight, Amsterdam. He had produced quite a number of films depicting Muslims as anything but good. He repeatedly insulted Dutch and Belgian Muslims, calling them Pimps of the Prophet.

No reported riots anywhere after the appearances of his films. In the end, a lone gunman shot him. This Mohammed then went on to win gold medal in 'suicide by cop', but either Dutch coppers don't have much of an aim or they actually tried to take him alive, 'cause he came in second.

There was some ruckus after Dutch politician Geert Wilders produced a movie called Fitna. Still, no large scale riots. Treaths, yes. Wilders has been living in a secret location for years, surrounded by security at all times, 24/365.
Still, the end result is clear: insulted Muslims. But since the Dutch haven't been engaged in full scale Imperialism in recent decades, people like Wilders and Van Gogh haven't spiked riots in 17 countries.

The riots now obviously have a driving force behind it. For decades the US have been dropping bombs on various parts of the Middle East, with no regards for collateral damage. You know there's no way to stop a drone bombing a wedding. So when you get a chance and a reason to strike back, that's what you do. From the looks of it, people are organising these riots. Call it 'Operation Insulted Muslim'. It's a battle in the bigger war. Not an incidental riot.
US policy tends toward 'we don't give a fuck for your loss'. Lead by example? I guess so.

[caseymoz]

44. Strange, you remember those examples

. . . but you forget the cartoons from the Danish newspaper that sparked riots seven years ago this month? Or do the Danes have more of a presence in the Middle East than I know about?

No, sorry, I don't think the difference is The Netherlands aren't imperialist and the US is.

I think the difference is people in the Islamic Nations can now view this offensive movie directly, on Youtube, whereas van Gogh's movies and writings stayed in the Netherlands or at least, in Europe, the audience they were meant for. At most, Middle East Muslims heard about van Gogh's work second hand. Now they can see it immediately, at once.

I want to make this clear: We should stop imperialism, and get out of the Middle East, no argument with you there. But it's not the issue here. I already have the information you've given, and guess, what? I still say it's still not the issue here.

To them, speaking against the prophet is a serious blasphemy and punishable by death. Now whatever else is peaceful about the Koran, that is in the book. It also condemns murder in the strongest way. Taking the quotes together, it seems to make killing the blasphemer something other than murder, to some people.

Our bombings are terrible, but they have nothing to do with six or eight guys in California with a camera and a vendetta, period. They have nothing to do with us. The guy behind it is a Coptic Christian, which is an oppressed sect in Egypt. He had his own ax to grind.

Nor do they have anything to do with the rioting. Sorry. If you doubt that, try this thought experiment: we were imperialists and bombers last week, last month, and last year, and there weren't continuous riots against us. So, what's different now? That movie. That's what's different.

Again, I'm well informed about our reckless, barbaric bombing of the Middle East, so you can be assured, your telling me about it doesn't sway my opinion.

About the van Gogh and Wilders murder and threat, respectively. The fact that there are enough Muslims among the faith willing to go violent, to make this threat substantial and ever-present, even years later, says something about the state of Islam now. True, we have fanatics over here, but I could say Jesus' carpentry work sucked, without endangering my life significantly. Though I could get unlucky with it. Now, the Bible doesn't have any tolerant things to say about unbelievers either, but at this point in history, Christians can deal with it. Four hundred years ago, it was different.

And your comparing murder to these riots makes the former sound like the measured and rational response we could expect from Muslims, which is insulting to them. If we weren't such imperialists pricks, then Muslims would just gun down the makers of that movie in our streets, and will be the end of it.

No, that's unacceptable to me. Neither murder nor rioting, (nor the threat of them), are acceptable. If you have enough people who are willing to commit murder because you insulted their favorite historical figure, they are equally willing to riot. Murder is not an respectable religious practice. By extension neither is rioting.

Besides, if you want somebody to stop being imperialists and stop bombing you, the worst way to do it is to attack their embassies and murder their diplomats.

[Odin2005]

36. Is that you, Ward Churchill?

So was the Ambassador a "Little Eichmann"?

[EX500rider]

40. It's got zero to do with Iran..

....most Arabs don't like Persian's or Shi'ites very much and it's likely that had prime minister Mosaddegh's government not been overthrown that Khomeini still would have led his revolution.
We certainly haven't installed every bad government over there either so blaming it all on "Imperialism" is weak.

[cthulu2016]

46. The cultural and population center of the Arab world has no oil.

Try again.

[HiPointDem]

47. K&R. Pisses me off that people can't put themselves in other people's shoes & THINK how they'd

feel if they were invaded, occupied, bombed, imprisoned, subject to the law, checkpoints, searches of invading people whose language they didn't even speak.

And if these same invaders were constantly attributing any protest, any violence, that resulted to how "uncivilized," "illiterate," "backward," "thuggish," "fundamentalist," the invaded were -- or their brainwashed literal adherence to the text of their religion -- by people who could barely pick out any middle eastern country on an unmarked map.

It's really disgusting.

[choie]

49. I agree, HiPointDem...

I'm really amazed at some of the responses here at DU. No acknowledgement of our actions and how they have affected the populations of these countries. I can't help but think that if these riots were happening under Bush more Dems would acknowledge our role in this horror. But, now our actions, including drone attacks, are moral.

[SpartanDem]

59. You what is disusting?

Killing people over a fucking movie. It's not any protest, we know why they are protesting and it's over a movie; "uncivilized," "illiterate," "backward," "thuggish," "fundamentalist," fit these people pefectly. Hell if they were actually protesting over our foreign policy then I could at least understand the violence and anger.

[HiPointDem]

60. you know what's worse? killing hundreds of thousands of people over power & control of resources.

[NutmegYankee]

62. That would apply to all of humanity.

Right back to ancient times and before. It even applies to Muslims whose mighty empire once crushed many cultures in the quest for power and control of resources.

[HiPointDem]

63. in the present day it applies mainly to the us.

[NutmegYankee]

66. So what's the statute of limitations?

I keep seeing people bring up the past. Just how far back is fair?

[HiPointDem]

68. us today = biggest military spender, biggest arms dealer, biggest voice in regional military

alliances, + a network of military bases that blanket the earth.

look behind any militarized conflict in the world today & you'll generally find the us or its proxies in the mix.

i don't have to look back.

[NutmegYankee]

61. I don't recall any of that happening in Eqypt by us.

Please highlight where Egypt was invaded, occupied, bombed, imprisoned, subject to the law, checkpoints, searches of invading people whose language they didn't even speak by the United States.

[4th law of robotics]

72. We did all that to Libya?

Or Egypt?

I recall the US helping them overthrow their despots.

But not the invading and oppressing bit.

[The Midway Rebel]

54. K & R for the title of this thread alone.

Thanks for sticking your neck out here. Some folks have no appreciation for history. Context is everything.

[MellowDem]

55. No, it's the culture...

and actually, the protesters are useful idiots for their own country's ruling class. Religion and ignorance runs very deep in those places, and the people are easy to bend to be used by the very people screwing them, just like the conservatives here really.

People with no history at all of democracy, with that uneducated and conservative/religious/isolated of a culture will want a theocracy in its place, and that seems to be what many of these countries are heading for. Well, good luck to them. They'll learn. It'll cost them dearly, but they'll learn like everyone does. I hope they become secular democracies sooner than later.

[SpartanDem]

56. Explain Salman Rushdie and Theo Van Gogh? This just some blame America first BS

this is soley the shoulder of the religious fanatics.

[aquart]

58. 1953?

People in that region have been successfully butchering each other for over ten thousand years, LONG before oil.

My God, what limited vision. 1953! IT'S A TRADE ROUTE.

And here's a little observable fact: there's LESS tribal butchery when a strong central authority or superpower is in command.

Looking at the Mideast and similar regions through American filters will lead you astray every time.

[Quantess]

65. So you don't believe the muslims

when they say why they are upset? You are saying, no, blasphemy is not why they are angry. You are suggesting that they are not telling us the real reason.
I think that is a mistake on your part to second guess them.

[riderinthestorm]

67. Then why doesn't this happen everywhere else the US has been as oppressive, exploitative, murderous?

Mexico, Central and South America, the Phillipines?

The UK and other European countries have been just as murderous, exploitative and oppressive in a colonial way in the ME as the US. Plus they have the added bonus of disgusting genocide in Africa.

There are so many places that have just the same kind of terrible history with the "west" as the Muslim countries yet none of them are attacking our embassies (or anyone else's).

The problem with this theory is that its not applicable anywhere else where there are even more grievous historic wrongs.

[eridani]

69. Google "Yanqui go home!" for starters.

Historically all imperialism is oppressive. Are you saying that because previous empires were alco oppressive that the US imperial military state is a good idea?

[riderinthestorm]

70. Your OP's making the point that US imperialism has created the rage in the ME that fuels these riots

and protests.

My point is that many, many other countries and cultures have been as similarly "oppressed" or "colonialized" or humiliated, 'murdered, destroyed, brutalized and exploited. Yet they aren't storming embassies or rioting over past grievous offenses etc.

Many of these cultures also have the same macho pride and sensitivity to perceived slights and deep religiosity as the ME.

So I just don't see the logical conclusion that many DUers, including your OP, are making about the raison d'etre for the violence in the ME. JCMach1, a Muslim recently returned from almost 10 years in the UAE, doesn't believe the seething rage in the ME is because of US imperialism but is instead because of the Saudi clerics that have infested every country with their fundamentalism. Others are trying to make this about AQ and their continuing efforts to destabilize western powers although even that theory seems to be falling apart as the State Dept says that the Libyan attack on the ambassador appears to have been spontaneous.

[eridani]

71. The rage in Latin America was every bit as intense in the 50s and 60s

Not so much these days, because leftist and/or populist governments have much more power now.

[riderinthestorm]

74. But there wasn't any violent riots, storming of US embassies, terrorism aimed at military personnel

These protests and riots in the ME involve thousands and thousands of people. Its astonishing really. Even countries that have never been occupied or brutalized participate.

I just thought your OP was too simplistic. It ignores so many other contradictory examples.

[eridani]

75. Of course there were violent riots

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/vice-president-nixon-is-attacked

During a goodwill trip through Latin America, Vice President Richard Nixon's car is attacked by an angry crowd and nearly overturned while traveling through Caracas, Venezuela. The incident was the dramatic highlight of trip characterized by Latin American anger over some of America's Cold War policies.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1697&dat=19601031&id=3dAdAAAAIBAJ&sjid=2EUEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7320,4560692
Expect more anti-American riots

[wiggs]

73. That's exactly right. People like to act like the movie exists in a vacuum and that the

illegal invasion of Iraq never took place, we don't battle mosque construction here in the US and vilify muslims, US imperialism is non-existent, we don't support strong-armed dictators in the world to the detriment of their people, we don't treat 'others' with something less than we treat our own, Abu Ghraib and rendition are forgotten, Iraq wasn't set up to fail by G Britain, tens or hundreds of thousands of civilians haven't been killed by our hands, we didn't supply Iraq with WMD for their war with Iran, etc etc.

Come on.... our actions haven't been pure and the world knows it. The movie contributes to an existing perception built over a long period of time. Just like Romney's 10,000 dollar bet during the debates isn't a big deal by itself but reinforces and supports an overall series of events and behavior that leads to a legitimate perception.

I don't mean to justify murder...just don't want another complex, gray issue to be boiled down to some minor black and white discussion. I bet every single one of the protesters in Egypt personally knows someone in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Gaza, Egypt or somewhere else who has been killed, injured, or has lost a family member due to our actions.

This is what war and imperialism means....people remember. They see Wives of OC or Jersey Shores or Rafalco pracing around and remember their nieces or uncles who were turned to mist by a drone or tortured by our propped up leaders and when a friend calls and offers a chance to protest...you better believe they remember and want to do something. How could it be otherwise?