The looting and fires in Minneapolis and elsewhere is counter productive, and

[still_one]

I think has the real danger to make November even more uncertain. You can bet trump will exploit and distort it in the most vile way

The quickest non-violent way to stop the violence, is to arrest the police officers involved. That inane press conference that was held where the prosecutor indicated there wasn't enough evidence to proceed at this time, helped propel this to where we are today

The videos were more than enough evidence. They not only proved that the police were lying when they said that George Floyd was resisting arrest, but unequivocally showed that Floyd was murdered.

[Budi]

1. I'm expecting him to start hinting at "Martial Law".

It's coming.. you just know he's itchin to do it!

[still_one]

2. That is a real possibility, which is why at a local level I do NOT understand why

the officers involved have not been arrested

The looting I am afraid will turn a lot of Americans against the good cause of Civil Rights

[Budi]

3. Well, his tweets sure seem to incite reaction & riot

Almost like he's teasing...

He does have some loyalists in the Mpls PD ranks

[still_one]

7. and twitter actually flagged him for "glorifying" violence, which was against

twitter rules

[Igel]

62. Do you agree with their assessment?

Or just assume that since they said it it must be true?

I could ban "no justice, no peace" as glorifying violence.

[still_one]

65. This is not just a tweet coming from anyone, but from the president of the U.S.

and instead of trying to calm a situation, it seems to me he is trying to throw fuel into the fire

As an aside, I do not have a twitter or facebook account, for many reasons, not the least being that it is too easy to propagate false information through their platforms, and very little accountability

[Alacritous Crier]

4. They are counter productive but...

they are the direct result of the coverup of police crime that is happening and has continued to happen since the beginning of policing in this country. A people who have been beaten down for centuries will respond to perceived and actual violence against them in any way they can.

As you pointed out, all of this could have been avoided had swift, decisive action been taken against the murderers. However, with centuries old systemic racism as "standard operation procedure" the government is incapable of acting in any other way at this time.

This is why the entire system of policing in the United States needs to be reset. "As long as the cop makes it home safe at night" needs to be thrown out the window!

[still_one]

8. Understood, but the only way it will have a chance to be reset is by voting

[Alacritous Crier]

13. Yes!

and voting and voting and voting.... for decades!

[uncle ray]

5. punch up.

[Hermit-The-Prog]

6. How much was done by outside agitators?

[still_one]

9. I don't think we will know

[GemDigger]

57. You should watch this.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100213498700

[still_one]

61. Thanks

[2naSalit]

12. Recent history shows

that most of it or the chain reaction of what follows after someone decides to start smashing shit when a peaceful protest is taking place, was started by agents provocateurs... or, shall we say, the usual suspects.

There will be a lot of that because of its affect on the social dialogue. We need to not fall for it. When someone starts smashing shit, everyone should bail out of the scene immediately so it can more easily be exposed as outside actors. Gathering and dispersing are two powerful acts, too often the latter is not considered an option.

[allnews]

10. Yes it's counterproductive

But enough is enough. Just arrest them already. Even if there’s some secret video that would exonerate them in future. How many innocent black men have been arrested? They’re giving trump what he wants by not arresting them. Does make one wonder if that’s the reason. As far as everyone preaching against the violence, what’s their suggestion? Peaceful march? We all know they wouldn’t let it remain peaceful. Or how about peaceful with plenty of witnesses such as taking a knee at football games. That act received the same criticism as the rioting.

[still_one]

16. voting. Only 47% of eligible voters voted in 2016, and it has been going on

that way for a long time

[DeminPennswoods]

56. +1

[Sunsky]

11. What is productive?

Please educate us because many of us blacks folks don't know. We have been peacefully protesting for years. So those who can walk around freely without fear of being executed, tell us how can we accomplish that?
This isn't only about November, it's about May 29, 2020, May 30th... It's everyday. How do we live in this country? Right or wrong, people are fed up. That's what's happening.

Lack of empathy for the pain in the black community is what will impact November and not the BS from team Trump. Team Trump will do what team Trump does, with or without a riot. Before this team Trump was exploiting a comment made by Biden in jest. Many AA saw through that BS. Living in fear of team Trump isn't healthy.

[Alacritous Crier]

14. 👍🏽

The whole system will have to be fixed and that's going to take a long time.

[still_one]

15. Yes, racism is systemic, and it has been going on for a long time

but violence begets violence

In 2016 there was no ambiguity that trump was a racist, bigot, and sexist, and he won in no small part because only 47% people voted, and that type of turnout has been going on for decades

[Sunsky]

17. Do you think that casting aside

The pain of AA will help to boost turnout? In my opinion, your perspective is off on this one. You are only looking at this through political lens, while people are struggling to survive. What we are witnessing is raw emotions from an ongoing systemic problem. The approach is messing and many are suffering but throughout history some of the most consequential change happened after an uprising, and I'm sure some people were uneasy with the approach.

"Violence begets violence", if you aren't a person of color. If you are a person of color, then your skin tone alone brings forth violence.

[still_one]

24. Voting is how change occurs for good or bad

[Sunsky]

40. We have been nt

[still_one]

41. I know

[DeminPennswoods]

64. The only way to make progress is to

vote and make alliances with others who support your objectives. I think with the covid19 epidemic, a lot of eyes have been opened to the critical part low wage and minority workers play in our economy. I think many more people are open to the idea of a higher minimum wage, paid sick days, making sure everyone has enough to eat, universal basic income, changes to health care delivery and other progressive ideas. Once basic security is established, then we can move together to figure out things like affordable housing and others.

I also believe there needs to be a serious recalibration of how we think about what we expect from law enforcement.

[Sunsky]

77. Voting is one way

A very important tool in achieving progress but as history has shown us, it is not the only way. Our voices will not be silenced. We have been voting, yet we are still dying. There is a need for an awakening sometimes; for the society to receive a jolt, a push to see that we are intelligent, functional but hurting beings, who deserve respect and equal treatment.
I don't deal with labels, progress this or that... Why when issues of race are mentioned, some people instantly talk about poverty or crime, etc? Do you realize that is not the issue, it's inequality? Many of us were not brought up in poverty, thank goodness but we have faced unequal conditions. We have faced racism in many forms. We are traumatized. We live in a constant state of fear. Until there are repercussions for racism, it will not stop.

[DeminPennswoods]

80. What reprecussions are there for white people when rioters destroy their

own neighborhood? 0, that's how many.

How many reprecussions are there for white people when non-whites exercise their power at the ballot box? Plenty, because politicians jobs are on the line and voting holds them accountable. It's the reason an activist like John Lewis was willing to risk being beaten to within an inch of his life to ensure your right to vote.

[Sunsky]

81. Nobody is saying don't vote

It is just not the only way. I believe this murderer would not have been arrested today if people didn't show up and show out.
The work isn't done, there were three others but it's a start. We'll also vote in November.
When your life is on the line, you go into fight or flight mode. Minorities are in fight or flight mode. Everyone doesn't have to see it or agree with it but many of us do. That's all.

[DeminPennswoods]

83. I am glad you will vote in Nov

Too many people don't bother. I'm a child of the 60s and grew up watching protests ultimately affect behavior and policy for the better, imho. Protesting is fine by me, the other stuff just hurts the cause but ymmv.

[uponit7771]

43. MLK, "... riots are the language of the unheard"

[Buckeye_Democrat]

74. How might the mafia handle it?

They'd go straight for Derek Chauvin and the other cops.

Chauvin had a small group of protestors outside his house instead.

Just putting a different perspective out there, sayin' how it could be handled differently.

[Paladin]

18. I support the civil disobedience; pleased to see it going nation-wide.

Such demonstrations are way the hell overdue.

[LisaL]

25. Demonstrations-so that's what you call burning buildings and people getting shot?

[Paladin]

47. Like I said: It's way overdue. (nt)

[dware]

60. So you support rioting, the burning of businesses,

businesses that had absolutely nothing to do with the murder of G. Floyd?

You support taking away jobs from those that had absolutely nothing to do with the murder of G. Floyd?

You support adding to the unemployment rolls of people who are just trying to make a living, people who had absolutely nothing to do with the murder of G. Floyd?

[Paladin]

71. I support a meaningful, effective, nation-wide response against trump and his goons.

So spare me your attempts at a guilt trip, alright? If Democrats had exhibited more outrage against the trump regime, back when it was obvious how bad it was going to get, those burning buildings you're so concerned with wouldn't be burning. Save your outrage and energy for November, when trump makes one final attempt at establishing an authoritarian state---unless we do something about it before then.

[dware]

72. Ok then.

[kentuck]

19. I'm not sure who is behind this looting and fires?

These are not your regular "protestors"?

Things going on that we don't know.

[bigtree]

20. if burning property and materials causes ( a voter) more concern than the killing of Mr. Floyd

Last edited Fri May 29, 2020, 10:14 AM - Edit history (1)

...(they) are probably already a Trumper for life.

[LisaL]

23. Hmm. People have been shot in these protests.

And burning buildings can obviously result in death if someone is in the building. Or if the fire spreads. It's not exactly harmless. And never mind there is a pandemic going on. Lots of people in close proximity is going to spread the virus.

[bigtree]

28. the op is complaining about politics

...and my response is appropriate to that misplaced concern.

Even still, I have to wonder about the handwringing over the property losses ("looting and fires" ), not the first time concern about vandalized property caused more outrage and response than the actual spark of the incidents.

[still_one]

31. Change occurs by voting

[bigtree]

42. what, is that supposed to be some revelation?

...it also occurs in the wake of unfortunate events.

The mistake I think you're making here is assuming the reactions to the killing were calculated political expression. Take a moment and reflect on what it does to a person, a community, to be underseige by a police force, to question every day whether it's your turn to face some idiot with a gun and a badge.

You can't influence everyone with political logic, and it's about time folks in charge get a grip on that reality before this thing really erupts. The ONLY thing that will ease the unrest is a prosecution. That's not me, bigtree, that's going to determine that. It's the folks who are hurting so badly that they're willing to destroy their own community who will need to be assuaged to respond politically instead of violently. Thinking you can reason them away from what they feel inside is a fools errand, imo. Try addressing their actual concerns and see how far that gets you. That's the logic I can relate to, not political pacifiers.

[still_one]

29. Not only are you mischaracterizing what I said, but you are implying I am a

a racist by saying I am probably already a trumper for life

[greenjar_01]

38. The true crime!

[bigtree]

45. that's not what I said

...you made a political calculation about the election, and I assume, voters.

My response is about voters, not your unfortunate post.

[still_one]

46. Appreciate the clarification, thanks

[bigtree]

51. I'm terribly sorry, still_one

...you didn't deserve that impression.

[still_one]

52. It is important we all have this dialog. Thanks

[bigtree]

53. I wish I wasn't so angry this morning

...I'm certain you didn't mean to offend anyone, and you're just trying to be helpful, as always.

[still_one]

58. You aren't the only who is angry obviously. Thanks

[GemDigger]

21. Other than arresting the cops, what would be productive?

Stay home and get over it?

[still_one]

27. voting

[GemDigger]

32. So we ignore all the deaths by cop and wait to vote?

In other words stay home and get over it.

[still_one]

33. I didn't say that, but do you think violence is the answer?

[GemDigger]

36. Please tell me the other options other than watching black people murdered.

That is exactly what you are saying. Watch blacks get killed and wait to vote. What else can I get from that?

[still_one]

44. Why don't you answer my question, do you think violence is the answer?

[GemDigger]

48. Why don't you answer my question? You are the one who is saying there are better options by

watching blacks get murdered.

[still_one]

50. You don't want a dialog. Have a good day.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

22. Counterproductive to what? What tactics do you approve of?

[still_one]

26. Voting

[WhiskeyGrinder]

37. Voting for what?

[still_one]

55. Voting for people, especially at the local level. Minneapolis, as other places,

obviously have major problems within their police force, and that means that people are in positions they shouldn't be. There has to be a whole revamping of personal within the police departments, especially in the leadership of those departments.

[LAS14]

30. I must confess, I share the urge to throw shopping carts and beat cars with baseball bats. nt

[Phentex]

75. I'm glad you said it first...

My husband is mortified by the things I've said in the past few days. But I'm getting older and more tired and more willing to lose my life.

[SoonerPride]

34. Optics aren't the problem. Systemic racism and killing of people with brown skin is the probem.

counter productive?

fuck that noise

[Alex4Martinez]

35. Ever been profiled, intimidated, feared for your life every time you go out?

Asking for a friend.

Seriously, we are in no position to judge, as right as you may be the veracity of the underlying anger in this or most any riot not associated with sports is undeniably evidence of injustice and, as such, warranted.

[still_one]

39. I am not judging, YOU ARE. I happen to be Jewish, and growing up in Iowa

wasn't the most pleasant thing. Besides being calling every vile name in the book as a kid, and bullied and pushed into unprovoked fights, I don't have to be lectured by you what it means to be intimidated and bullied, when you don't even know who I am or MY EXPERIENCE

[spanone]

49. Martin Luther King on riots...

“A riot,” King said, “is the language of the unheard.”

https://time.com/3838515/baltimore-riots-language-unheard-quote/

[democrattotheend]

59. Agree 100%

Now the focus is on the looting and fires rather than the killing of an innocent black man by cops.

[dware]

63. Exactly what the Trumpers and cops want.

Instead of talking about how the cops murder innocent AA's, now the talk is about the rioting and looting.

How the fuck is this productive?

[Hortensis]

66. Why assume arresting the officer would stop the violence when

firing all four IMMEDIATELY didn't even gain authorities a day for investigation etc? I think actions show this great anger would have been taken to the streets even if all four had been arrested.

[still_one]

68. Because the videos left no ambiguity, and that inane press conference where

the prosecutor said "they won't “rush” to press charges, and there's other evidence that does not support a criminal charge.", was not the best choice of words.

I believe the arrest would have gone a long way to calming the situation.

This isn't the first time this has happened. They obviously have major internal problems within the police force, and that needs to addressed, but that is going to take time

[Hortensis]

70. Yup to the last. It's way, way past time to apply what we

now know about personalities and social dynamics far more rigorously to police departments -- management selection, training, practices. Besides the direct killer, three other officers didn't intervene while George Floyd died. Psychiatrists and sociologists know why.

[still_one]

73. I don't know if you saw it, but there was another video from a different angle which was on MSNBC

last night, and showed the other three officers sitting on other parts of George Floyd’s body

They were not just passive, they took part in the killing

[Hortensis]

76. Unless one was compressing his thorax so he couldn't inhale,

their control did not kill him. Chauvin's did, while they watched. Guessing different charges.

Unless... Interestingly, it turns out Chauvin and Floyd had worked at the same night club, same shift; it's extremely unlikely that an off-duty cop guard wouldn't recognize a fellow security guard even though they worked different parts of the club. There may well be more to not just Chauvin's motivations but to those of the other officers in supporting him.

Film of the incident, though patchy, apparently does not support the (usual standard) claim they all made that Floyd resisted arrest.

[ibegurpard]

67. People are enraged and lashing out

What you are seeing is not tactical political action. Trying to address as such is a mistake.
We need to demand those police officers be arrested before even that fails to keep it from spinning further out of control.

[still_one]

69. I know, and I did note that in the OP that those officers involved should

have been arrested.

There are obviously major problems within the police force that must be addressed, but that is going to take a much longer time to do, and it will take political action for that to happen in my opinion

[Shiv]

78. I'm not saying you're wrong

and I feel that your heart is in the right place.

But I think those who survived the Boston Massacre, and those that saw the lithograph in the papers, would disagree with you that outrage at injustice turning this direction is counter productive when a people aren't being heard and are gunned down and suppressed. Or that when change is delayed and denied and your people are dying, non-violence must be maintained at all costs.

We sort of have this country, whatever state it may be in currently, and however imperfectly it may have gotten through that period, because it assuredly *was not* counter productive to fight for representation. The fight just isn't over for everyone yet.

The talk about businesses and jobs and property when the people losing those still have their health and family... and others don't. I'm not sure what to say about that in a constructive way.

[still_one]

79. +++

[cwydro]

82. Have you seen the thread with the video of inside the Target?

Eye opening.

[still_one]

85. No. I will look for it

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

84. so quaint: "The looting and fires .... and elsewhere is counter productive"

NO ONE has ever ever said those words before first time ever.. and I'm 64yo!!!!

and yes, I'm being an ass.

9 years old in mid-Alabama during the 'years' of 1964/65.

Church bombing kills 4 young girls.

Freedom Riders lynched.

Four Dead in Ohio.

Make Love not War.

April 4, 1968.

Stonewall 1969.

It's amazing that no one has ever realized what is counter productive.. especially after everyone trying to 'fit in' .. and that never worked......