Just came home from church and we are furious!

[spartan61]

We belong to a Catholic parish in a retirement community in Florida. While my husband was driving home, I read the church bulletin. An article in the bulletin started out beautifully but then became disgustingly political. The article said that because so many young people fell for the Hope and Change in 2008, in reality it was "Hype and Lies." You tasted "socialism" and have seen evil face to face. The article also called the 2008 election the "Great Lie."

I plan to write to the priest and tell him why we are leaving the church. Politics have no place in church whether it be from the pulpit or the bulletin. If the church, any church, wants to be political, then they should give up their tax exempt status.

I couldn't help but think that if the church is so against socialism, then the parishioners shouldn't be driving to Mass on the socialist roads. Also, because it is a retirement community, most of the people are on SS and Medicare. On Monday I plan to go to the local Obama campaign office and volunteer my services, something I should have done before now.

[Frances]

1. Thank you for taking positive action

in the face of such a negative experience!

[kardonb]

73. gen.disc.

If they are politicizing in church , thy should be paying TAXES ! After all ,they rely on public services just like everyone else .
I left the cath. church a long time ago because of their demeaning attitude towards women .

[Ned_Devine]

175. It seems a little odd that...

...your church just out of nowhere decided to take this hard right stance. Hadn't you noticed them sort of trending in that direction?

[TexasBushwhacker]

195. It makes me wonder if the priest even knows about it.

Unless it was written by him, I wouldn't assume he approved the article for publication. Churcg newsletters are usually put together by a volunteer(s).

[pittipat]

255. The priest knows it now.

I have sent a letter to the priest and the bishop in Orlando

[xmas74]

219. I would wonder about the identity of the author.

At my church it isn't our pastor or associate pastor who puts together the newsletter-it's a volunteer, usually one of the retired women of the church. I wouldn't be surprised if this is similar.

If it were me I'd call the parish priest before resigning and find out if this was approved by him.

[progressivebydesign]

2. Save the bulletin, and send it to the IRS.

Churches cannot do that. I resent the fact that my tax monies subsidize people like that.

[ProfessionalLeftist]

22. Bingo! Send that thing in. That Church should pay taxes

Or STHU.

[Astazia]

225. Bingo & Propaganda $$$=Taxes

K&R What happened to Church & fuckin' state. I am so glad I found DU. If I hadn't, my head would've definitely exploded!!


It truly is a shame that spiritual paths are interrupted by the ignorant. Such a shame. We've all or most of us have been there. *sigh*

[raccoon]

29. I second that emotion! nt

[saidsimplesimon]

52. ProPublica "IRS Whistle Blower"

A bit off topic, related to your comment, Kim Barker wrote a piece for ProPublica dated 8/19/12. It is titled "Kim Barker's excellent investigative article for ProPublica, "How Nonprofits Spend Millions on Elections and Call It Public Welfare".

While the focus is on "SuperPacs", there are religious institutions who abuse their tax exempt status, imho.

[icymist]

228. Welcome to the DU!

[xxqqqzme]

69. Yes indeed. Report, report, report.

That is disgusting. I'm surprised it is so overt.....well maybe I'm not. the rabid religious rong is all about flaunting their newly elevated lawless status.

[dotymed]

240. I haven't attended church for about 6 years.

I am a lapsed Episcopalian. When I did attend, we were about peace and helping others. The Priest was also a friend. We still had some wealthy attendees (Episcopalians used to be made of many wealthy people and others who were (are) rather liberal in their beliefs).
While they did not publish the fact in their newsletter, most of the congregation were progressives who worked and cared about those less fortunate.
The Episcopal religion is now a dying religion. Yes, the American Diocese began ordaining women Priests and was scandalized last decade when they ordained an openly gay Priest. (Yes, Priests are allowed to marry, this is the remnants of the Catholic church thrown out of England by Henry VIII).
Well, the outcry from other "Christian churches, especially the Catholics really helped the demise of Episcopalians. The only organized religion that made any sense to me.

[avebury]

123. That was exactly what I was going to say.

But make sure to keep a copy as evidence.

[mzteris]

140. Yes! they can also

contact/send a copy to the organization "Americans United for the Separation of Church and State" http://www.au.org/

and they'll do the heavy lifting on reporting the Church.

[nanabugg]

161. Report the to the IRS and send them a copy of the letter. nt

[ryan_cats]

200. OK, this is a bad thing but...

OK, this is a bad thing but, playing Devil's advocate, consider they said that President Obama was doing a great job and should be re-elected? Would you urge them to turn them into the IRS then? If not, why?

I'm a Christian but in college, I wrote a pretty vicious paper on why the Catholic Church should pay taxes. Got an A as well. Not a fan of Catholics when you consider that 90% of their services and views are not anywhere in the Bible.

Look up transubstantiation. It means that as you consume the consecrated cracker (communion cracker) it actually turns into the flesh of Christ. This is Catholic doctrine.

Two things:

1) It's testable, try it with someone who has been on a fast. If it is flesh (I don't believe it is, it's nowhere in the Bible) then we should see tissue and not cracker pieces. As a plus, if it was flesh, we could clone Jesus! (I'm kidding).

2) Jesus said do this in remembrance of me, not eat my actual flesh and drink my real blood, just look at the end of Mathew, Mark and Luke but it's not in John.

The actual text in Luke 22:17-20, from the King's James version is: #17 Jesus: "And he took the cup and gave thanks, and said, "Take this and divide it amongst yourselves. 18: For I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the Kingdom of God shall come. 19: And he took bread and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them saying, "This is my body which is given for you: this, do in remembrance of me." 20: Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new Testament in my blood which is shed for you. From my reading (and millions of others) he is talking about a method of remembering the sacrifice Christ did in propitiation of our sins.

It sounds gross but if he really wanted us to eat his actual flesh and drink his real blood, that is easily accomplished yet he didn't do it.

But there is an excellent passage: John #13:34 A new commandment I give unto you. that you love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. #13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are all my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Unfortunately, I have not been able to determine whether these two new commandments supersede the over 600 (that's right not ten but over 600 in the Pentateuch) or are added to them. The problem with all of these commandments bedsides being impossible to follow in a lifetime, they can only condemn you, they cannot save you. That's why Jesus appeared.

While I have considerably mellowed after around 30 years, I still see things that I think are outside of what should be tax exempt and I am a non-denominational Protestant who attends Church twice a week.

I mentioned a diss of the President by the Pastor and the Pastor said, he thought I was right and he toned it down (this was in 2009) but now that the election is here, the rhetoric has ratcheted up.

The funny thing is, Christians do NOT believe that Mormons worship the same Christ the rest of Christianity does. They (Mormons) have a saying that goes like, "As man is God was and as God is, man can become." I might not have it exactly quoted but you get the idea. First of all, I can barely run my life yet I'm supposed to get my own planet (seriously) and be god over it. Ask a Mormon missionary about the planet Kolob.

Then there is the real kicker, until, I believe, sometime in the '70s, the Mormon hierarchy reversed their stance on black people. They used to believe that the reason they were black was because they were marked by their god much like Cain was marked. I guess all those blacks with their 10% tithe caused them to have a 'vision' that allowed blacks in church and this is during the 70s!

I know a lot of conservative Christians and Mitten's Mormonism seriously bothers them. People thought since JFK was a Catholic, that he would accept orders from the Pope. Well, in Mormonism, the 12 apostles are still alive and I have no idea how much influence they have over their star members. I know a lot of Mormons and as for lifestyle, they leave Christians in the dust. Their facade is one of a caring and believing people. However, you go to Temple a lot as a Mormon.

This is anecdotal but an atheist friend lived in Salt Lake City and he said they had people in supermarkets to ensure that Mormons didn't buy tobacco, alcohol or even caffeine. Sounds creepy and unbelievable but he swore it was true. It appears, that once you become a Mormon, you might as well be a Borg because they take up a lot of your live's time and they control you such as not being able to drink alcohol. While I can understand that my body is my temple and I shouldn't defile it, it's my problem, so why do they have monitors?

[KitSileya]

226. I don't think this is the place to discuss theology.

This is a thread about the separation of church and state, and not about Catholic dogma (which, you might want to note, rests on the Bible and Tradition, not just the protestant doctrine of sola scriptura.)

From what I see, the Catholic Church in America is very influenced by its Protestant and fundamentalist sister churches, and is much more political than the larger Catholic Church. Not that the Catholic Church at large isn't political, but in the US it's very party oriented, as in anti-Democratic party and pro-Republican. In much of the rest of the world, the Church is political on issues, not parties.

[tavalon]

211. I second that one

Ask not what you're country can do, ask what YOU can do for your county. And it's sitting in your lap right now. Proof that your church is engaging in politics and needs to lose its tax exempt status.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

224. Remember the Episcopal Church in Pasadena?

IRS investigation

On the Sunday before the 2004 Presidential election, Rector emeritus George Regas preached a sermon opposing the Iraq War. The premise of the sermon was a debate between George W. Bush and John Kerry moderated by Jesus Christ. In the sermon Regas supposed that, "Jesus [would say], 'Mr. President, your doctrine of preemptive war is a failed doctrine. Forcibly changing the regime of an enemy that posed no imminent threat has led to disaster.'"[1]

Complaints about the sermon led to an investigation by the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) into whether the sermon voided the church's tax-exempt status as a prohibited political endorsement. The church has responded by claiming that the IRS is selectively enforcing the rule by not pursuing actions against conservative churches. In response to the investigation, Rector Ed Bacon gave a sermon called, "Neighbor Love is Never Neutral."[2]

In September 2006, the IRS issued a summons against All Saints demanding that the church turn over documents related to the controversial sermon. All Saints Church's response was that the IRS was violating the church's First Amendment rights and that the Church would challenge the IRS's actions in a summons enforcement proceeding in the United States Federal District Court. The church then established a charitable fund to raise money for its legal defense.

The Pasadena Star News reported that All Saints would remain defiant against the IRS. Rector Ed Bacon asserted that political activism was "in the DNA" of the church.

Result of IRS investigation

On September 25, 2007, CCH reported in Federal Tax Day:

On September 10, 2007, the IRS notified the congregation that it was closing its investigation. The IRS determined that the sermon was political campaign intervention. It offered no explanation as to why the sermon violated the ban on political intervention. The IRS also did not indicate if it intended to impose excise taxes under Code Sec. 4955 [see 26 U.S.C. § 4955] on the church or its officers. However, it did not revoke the church's exempt status.[9]

[MineralMan]

3. Send that bulletin to the IRS. They're not allowed

to campaign like that.

[riverbendviewgal]

5. Very good idea

I believe in keeping religion and government separate...if they are in the church than that church does not qualify for tax exemption.
that is that.


Let us know what your pastor says to this. and please do ask him what does he think the IRS will say to that little written sermon?

[arcane1]

104. And let the church know that you're doing it!

[20score]

115. Beat me to it. And I hope they follow your advise.

These churches are out of control.

[B Calm]

199. That's exactly what I would do!!

[earthside]

4. Seems over the line to me.

You should scan that into the computer so that we can read it.

It also makes me wonder if a copy shouldn't be forwarded to the IRS ... perhaps that church would lose its tax exempt status for what sounds like a clearly partisan appeal/argument.

[2pooped2pop]

71. yes a copy

keep the original. Things have a way of getting lost.

[JHB]

101. Or pick up another copy

In fact, if you asked I'm sure they'd give you a whole stack.

[Tennessee Gal]

6. You are right to take action. Thank you! nt

[ForgoTheConsequence]

7. Yes they are.

Well technically, no they aren't you're right. But if you think the IRS will do anything about it you're nuts. High profile Bishops have been saying stupid shit like this for years, nothing happens to them. They know they're immune to the law.

[The Wielding Truth]

72. I think it should be turned in anyway. They are immune if we don't sop them.

[gholtron]

8. Good For You.

Also remind the priest that Jesus never preached politics in the synagogue and what the Ryan plan would do for the poor.

[MADem]

9. Fuck writing to the priest (pardon my french); write to the IRS instead.

They have a whistleblower line, you could call 'em, if you'd like.

Send them a copy of that bulletin. You could even make some money, and donate it to good causes!

http://www.irs.gov/uac/Whistleblower---Informant-Award

[Mponti]

93. Write the IRS, cc the priest

[PatSeg]

97. And a letter to the editor

to any local newspapers.

[Sherman A1]

107. Agreed

and the Parish Council and as was stated elsewhere a LTTE of your local newspaper. If the parish has a FB page post a copy there and cc the Diocesan Office. I would make just a whole lot of noise. If you want action, you need to hit them from multiple sources.

When I am pissed as in this situation, I calmly tell the person with whom I interacting, that I shall file a complaint with every Federal, State & Local agency that has any possible jurisdiction as it is so very easy to do via email. It's just a touch of a button and then they can deal with the inquiries from those agencies.

[MADem]

178. Yes....and picture the priest pooping his pants when he opens the letter! nt

[2on2u]

10. I read this thread, mailed it to a friend... piddled a bit and when I recced it a few minutes

later it went from zero to 20, I'd say you struck a nerve and not a small one at that.

[rug]

11. You're not alone.

http://www.au.org/blogs/wall-of-separation/pew-ado-catholic-leaders-endorse-candidates-despite-growing-flock

http://www.au.org/get-involved/report-a-violation

[Duppers]

146. edited comment

Whoops. I had just reposted one of your links, rug. Sorry. My phone didn't show the entire page on au.org.

Me bad.

[UTUSN]

12. Political pulpiteering drives me up the wall. Radio fundies run propaganda from ministers, IRS won't

intervene, it's free speech doncherknow. I say, make religions PAY TAXES like everybody else.

[heaven05]

26. hell

southern baptist preachers tell their flock who to vote for, and 90% do what preach says. No questions asked. Hell all churches are political hotbeds.

[Kalidurga]

13. The IRS probably won't do anything about it, but

send them the bulletin anyway. They definitely can't do anything about a problem they don't know about and if they don't act that is on them and not you that nothing was done. I can't believe any church should support Romney. Lies are supposed to be tools of the devil and Romney uses those tools everyday. I don't believe he ever speaks the truth even when it's more convenient. He probably lied about peanut butter sandwiches and chocolate milk being his favorite snack.

[citizen blues]

30. I agree! Send the bulletin to the IRS!

If enough of us report such abuses, the IRS will be more likely to listen.

You might want to submit a Letter to the Editor of your local paper. You are probably not the only one offended by a political statement in a church bulletin. It might help others come forward and speak out as well.

[lunatica]

14. Sometimes you just gotta get mad!

Take no prisoners!

[Cleita]

15. The Catholic Church operates as a socialist institution on the clerical level.

Convents and monasteries are all socialist, actually communist in how they function. I think you should take this up with your parish priest and if he's at the bottom of this, and not just some underling that put out the bulletin, go to the diocese. You don't need to leave the Church because of one bad apple, but you should object to this. Do remind them that they need to remember that gospel about rendering to Caesar what its Caesar's and to God what is God's. This is Christ's teaching on the separation of Church and State. There is also that other gospel about Jesus chasing the money changers out of the temple, which is what you seem to have there, a political operative, who needs to be chased out of the temple.

[SoapBox]

16. Thank you for posting...

and thank you for having your own mind.

[Grey]

17. The church is the best example of "socialism".

at least, if they believe in the bible they should be.
People working together for the common good, The priest is wrong.

[pasto76]

18. second that motion to send it to IRS and the state dept of Revenue

you never know when the straw will break.

you do know that not sending anything, not saying anything, the straw will never break.

[CJCRANE]

19. And tell them you won't be donating to them because

you can't have people pulling together to achieve common goals, that would be socialist. The church needs to pull itself up by its bootstraps.

[monmouth]

20. One time I was sitting way too up front near the altar and the priest went on and on about birth

control and its sins, etc. I was furious, got up and walked right down the middle of the aisle out the Church door. I did hear a rustle behind me and saw about six other women with husbands in tow right behind me. Have not been back since. It did feel good.

[virgogal]

143. I left the church in 1969 because of birth control. A priest told me to take valium to

calm my nerves if the 6 kids were getting to me. Valium. Can you believe it?

Walked out,had my tubes tied,and never looked back.

[Thinkingabout]

21. If action was taken on regular basis, this would stop.

There is only a few hours and little space in bulletins and to fill that time and space is a failure on our churches, this is a time to tell of Jesus and his love and not the hate I hear too much of these days.

[LibGranny]

23. Supposed to be separation of church and state in this country, so PLEASE

save the bulletin and send it to IRS. The church should lose its tax exempt status!

[patrice]

24. Some Catholics told me similar stories around here in 2004.

[unapatriciated]

133. The Church was none to happy with Kerry's stance on birth control and pro choice.

My sister (she is very involved in her parrish) told me that the majority of Dems in her parrish registered republican during 2004 in protest regarding birth control. I told her if she voted for bush she should be ashamed of herself. She insisted she didn't but I don't believe her, all she could talk about during those elections was the church's stance on bc and abortion. Funny she only had three children and I'm sure she used more than the rhythm method that is sanctioned by the church.

[patrice]

152. Sigh . . . the politically naive get so USED!! & FAIL on so much else besides their own narrow

understanding/desires. So much else that you'd think they actually do care about at least as much as they do about fetuses, but they are so uninformed and their understanding is so fucking shallow that they don't get the relationships between fetuses and anything else.

THINK how much further we'd be on everything to do with energy if Kerry would have won and how much that fact would have helped everything else, but . . .

You know, I think certain ones amongst the 1% globally knew for quite a long time that the Derivative Crash was DUE and there are those who have been trying to manage that situation to their best benefit, despite what their management might do to others of the 1%, or maybe even BECAUSE of what they might be able to accomplish against others of the 1%, not to mention their disregard for anyone and everyone else who is not part of their hegemony - so - if Kerry had won, who knows what about when the whole Derivative Crash might have been used against him, just like we saw this last 4 years.

Though maybe it would have been better for the whole financial corruption thing to have been recognized by the public earlier???

[eridani]

157. Oddly enough, the Church never seemed to care that Giuliani and

--Scwhartzenegger were pro-choice. IOKIYAR

[freshwest]

25. When they decided to go political, they went straight, without a blink, into the gutter. Disgusting.

That kind of low down language is not what I've come to expect from the more nuanced missives of those educated in Catholic universities. More like the rantings of Liberty University or the Glenn Beck University as he's designated his particular cult.

I suggest you keep, copy and spread that bulletin far and wide and ask why they are promoting the team that will end social services. Maybe you could invite the 'Nuns on the Bus' to come to your parish and enlighten the flock about how the priest (diocese, or whoever is ultimately responsible) is disrespecting the social mission of church workers. Remember, one of their number spoke at the DNC:

Nun: Romney-Ryan budget fails moral test

You might ask the person who issued this, if they are for all of Ryan's pro-death budget. Since cutting off Medicaid is death for the majority covered by it and it is equally divided between the disabled and elderly without other means to live. Will they support the death penalty next?

Remind them Obama has sworn that as long as he is President, Social Security will not be privatized on his watch. But that is a Romney promise. That scheme has left the elderly in other nations without a dime to support them in their old age.

I applaud your positive action in this matter by going to work for OFA and hope others in your parish will follow your example. But I understand if you don't feel you can come out publicly against the priest, etc. You still have to live there and don't want to lose your friends.

Best wishes and thanks for informing us of this.

[classof56]

66. Great post. Thank you!

Your words are right on point, and I shall be using them. Thanks again!

OBAMA/BIDEN 2012

[CoffeeCat]

27. I would send the bulletin to the media...

If you wanted to "package" a story that the media would likely cover--find other people in your congregation who agree with you about the bulletin being inappropriate. Call local media and tell them you have the bulletin and several parish members who are upset.

They will most likely cover this story.

I think it's time that we start fighting back HARD against this nonsense. It's great that you are planning to write a letter and voicing your opinion. However, that won't make them stop.

Showing this parish that behaviors like that--will get a reporter microphone in their faces--will have a significant impact.

[defacto7]

53. Beware.. That one can backfire.

Most clergy want a mic in their face. It's a pulpit, and the local media will give equal time to rebuttal, maybe even lean toward the clergy. I've seen this too many times.

You can make your own stance without putting to the media. If the media in the meantime decides to pick it up, you have more of a chance to get a fair shake.

[MineralMan]

28. Could you give us the name of the church and the city?

Most churches post their bulletins at their websites. I'd like to take a look at this one. Maybe we can publicize their campaigning against the President. Take it public and see what falls out.

[spartan61]

57. If you Google

St. Mark the Evangelist Catholic Church Summerfield, FL, and then click on church bulletin for Sept. 16, you can find it on page 9. Someone on this site also found it and put in the link. It must be going around churches all over America.

[MineralMan]

61. Thank you!

[progressivebydesign]

68. Good it's a pdf so that it can be saved on various computers for posterity. n/t

[MineralMan]

76. OK. Got it. This is a Email that is being circulated by an

organization called the Gray-Haired Brigade. It's everywhere on the Internet right now. Often titled, as your bulletin had it as "Gray-Haired Geezers" it's been appearing as a letter to the editor, on web sites, and in many other places, including your church bulletin. There's a campaign out there to circulate it far and wide.

You'll start seeing the identical thing on Facebook and everywhere you go.

Since it isn't an official statement by your church, but was posted in another way, there's probably nothing much you can do about it. But, it's just another internet email meme that is going to be everywhere.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Grey+Haired+Geezers&sugexp=chrome,mod=16&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=Gray+Haired+Geezers&hl=en&safe=off&prmd=imvns&psj=1&ei=igtWUOLaL8bByQGI_oAo&start=10&sa=N&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=e0ad5b0b13e28188&biw=1138&bih=529

[progressivebydesign]

86. Including it into the bulletin, though, may be an issue.

At the very least, I would hope that it motivates a lot of people there to reevaluate WHY they support that church at all.

[MineralMan]

96. It might, but probably not.

If a church includes something like that as a letter from a parishioner, which wasn't done in the newsletter in question, they'd be probably OK with the IRS. In this particular case, the church included it without any note or name, so it could easily be interpreted as an official communication. Trouble is that it's iffy, and probably wouldn't meet the IRS's criteria for action.

This kind of crap gets circulated everywhere by such organizations, and then appears in smaller newspapers as letters to the editor, with some local adding his or her name to it. It's the bane of LTTE editors everywhere. They publish a letter that they think is original, only to find out that everyone else is publishing the same chain letter. They hate them, mostly.

As soon as I saw the church bulletin, I recognized the letter, so I did a Google search for it, and found literally hundreds of hits on it. That means that it's on its way everywhere, and soon, you'll be seeing it wherever you go. Viral distribution.

The right is very good at that stuff, and they do it all the time. This one is timed to reach its peak right around the election. Watch for it in something you read soon.

[CitizenPatriot]

151. Maybe the church can be asked if they knew what they were publishing

was propaganda and if they are willing to publish a rebuttal and clarification for the entire church?

If only these folks were called to task when they pulled this stuff, maybe they'd start to think twice. Some of them are duped, I'm sure. I get enough people asking me about right wing emails that are clearly debunked on Snopes to wonder.

[MineralMan]

154. I suspect the church member will have to take it up with the

church. Given what it is, the IRS isn't going to be interested. It has to be very blatant before they'll do anything.

[m.a.h.]

149. Other sightings

It would be interesting to know the actual origin of this screed.

I found it attributed to two different authors at these sites:

http://www.alandcalledamerica.com/the-grey-haired-brigade

http://www.northjersey.com/news/opinions/166505006_Letter_to_the_Editor__Seniors_are_taking_back_America.html

[crunch60]

172. Gray-Haired Brigade- Provided as a free service by Tom Hoefling - [e-mail] SelfGover

Looks like some Right Wing. Karl Rove, tea party propaganda crappola. check out this link and some of the posts.

http://www.aipnews.com/talk/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=24050&posts=1

http://www.aipnews.com/index.asp

Audio recording available - Sep 13, 2012 America's Summit: Restore The Republic call - SteveSchulin (0 replies)

Agenda 21, Secular Humanism, and the Animalization of Americans - gcsteven (2 replies)

Hallelujah! Obama can read. - Alan Keyes WND - gcsteven (3 replies)

The Picture That Should Cost Obama His Job - EternalVigilance (0 replies)

Unaccountable: PAC ActBlue Tops Political Donors with Online Donations - EternalVigilance (0 replies)

CA presidential candidate statements published [Obama, Stein, Romney, Hoefling, Johnson, Barr] - EternalVigilance (3 replies)

Two years later, and we basically find the same flawed strategy being employed... - VALEDICTION (3 replies)

Obama's treason -- planned, paraded, perfected, - TomK--V-USA (0 replies)

[avebury]

130. You can even save it as a pdf file which might be handy if

all of a sudden it "vanishes".

[fadedrose]

190. Thanks for the info.....this is disgusting....

But young people aren't so dumb, neither are most of the old. The not-so-good father must be getting some hefty contributions from the right....

[KathieG]

192. Ah, we are practically neighbors. I am just north of Ocala.

Knowing the area, this doesn't surprise me at all.

[rsweets]

31. Rick Santorum catholicism

you don't need that kind of crap

[pwb]

32. People should raise their hand and ask questions in church.

Listening to these so called men of God speak makes me wish at times God gave us ear flaps.

[Turk 182]

33. Contact Americans United For Separation Of Church and State

They regularly write letters to the IRS reporting religious organizations who violate the tax code, and to the offending organization warning them of the consequences. They also take legal action.
Here is how to contact them:

http://www.au.org/about/contact-us

[spartan61]

60. Thank you for this suggestion.

I have scanned the article and will send it to Americans United for Separation of Church and State.

[Turk 182]

80. you're welcome nt

[redwhiteblue]

34. Socialism

Socialism with a Harry S. Truman quote.
A Quote from Harry S. Truman.
" The Republicans will try to tell you that everything the government does for the country is socialism.They will go to the people and say:"Did you see that social security check you got the other day-you thought that was good for you didn't you? That's just too bad!That's nothing in the world but Socialism.Did you see that new flood control dam the government is building over there for the protection of your property? Sorry,-that's awful socialism.That new hospital that they are building is socialism. Price supports, more socialism for the farmers.Minimum wage laws? Socialism for labor.Socialism is bad for you my friend.Everybody knows that. And here you are with your new car, and your home and better opportunities for the kids and a television set__You are just surrounded by socialism.Now the Republicans say."That's a terrible thing my friend and the only way out of this sinkhole of socialism is to vote for the Republican ticket."

[StevePaulson]

35. They Don't Care About What Jesus Taught

Your priest is obviously brainwashed spartan. http://www.RepublicansAreADisease.com He is obviously either a partisan Republican, or has such a feeble mind he has been brainwashed by Glenn Beck......

Republicans fight tooth and nail against everything Jesus taught.

Case closed.

[paulwarnerwarrior]

83. Republican = Opposite of Christian

They claim to be the party of god, and completely ignore christs message.

[newspeak]

218. naw, not glenn beck

he's mormon.

I have a problem with the thought that "socialism" is bad. The damn church is based on socialism.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

36. Write to the IRS and provide the proof that they need their tax exempt status revoked. nt

[itsrobert]

37. Scan the bulliten and post it on the net

n/t

[Vinnie From Indy]

40. +1

Let's get it out there! Also, tell your Bishop of your plan to send the bulletin to the IRS

[MineralMan]

54. Most churches publish their bulletin in PDF format

on their website these days. That would make it easy to deal with. Just save the whole PDF to your hard drive. Then, it can be emailed as an attachment.

[antiquie]

38. Is this some kind of RW meme?

I found this (plus google has lots of results):

"It was mostly the young people of this nation who elected (Barack) Obama and the Democratic Congress. You fell for the Hope and Change which in reality was nothing but Hype and Lies.

You have tasted socialism and seen evil face to face, and have found you don't like it after all. You make a lot of noise, but most are all too interested in their careers or climbing the social ladder to be involved in such mundane things as patriotism and voting."

http://www.northjersey.com/news/opinions/166505006_Letter_to_the_Editor__Seniors_are_taking_back_America.html

[spartan61]

51. That is the same article!!

It must be going around to all the churches to be put in their bulletins. I have a friend who had it in her bulletin in PA. Disgusting!!!

[riverbendviewgal]

70. This must be sent to the IRS and copy

the head cardinal in The USA.....

Separation of church and state is what America is all about...

You don't do it, you lose your income tax exemption. The law is the law. Might be good to write to each bishop in the state this is statement is found in a church bulletin......
Money talks...

wiki says

The central leadership body of the Catholic Church in the United States is the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, made up of the hierarchy of bishops (including archbishops) of the United States and the U.S. Virgin Islands, although each bishop is independent in his own diocese, answerable only to the Holy See. The USCCB elects a president to serve as their administrative head, but he is in no way the 'head' of the Church or of Catholics in the United States. In addition to the 195 dioceses and one exarchate[9] represented in the USCCB, there are several dioceses in the nation's other four overseas dependencies. In the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, the bishops in the six dioceses (one metropolitan archdiocese and five suffragan dioceses) form their own episcopal conference, the Conferencia Episcopal Puertorriqueña.[10] The bishops in US insular areas in the Pacific Ocean—the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands, the Territory of American Samoa, and the Territory of Guam—are members of the Episcopal Conference of the Pacific.

[alfredo]

79. Plagiarism. That needs to be pointed out to his parishioners.

[ThoughtCriminal]

87. On Monday - be sure to mention plagiarism

IF there is no attribution, it is plagiarism - which is theft of ideas (even bad ones).

[Cleita]

99. This tells me they are getting some of their bulletin reports from a central source.

Your parish priest, if he hasn't been saying things like this from the pulpit, probably isn't even aware of it. Getting up at five in the morning to say several masses on Sunday morning, probably hasn't given him time to look at the bulletin. You really need to give him the benefit of the doubt first, and touch bases with him first. If the diocese is behind this screed, then the lay Catholics of the diocese need to set them straight. I have seen it done before when the laity laid into the local bishop telling him they didn't like how he was doing things.

[MineralMan]

111. More likely, this was sent to this parish church

by a parishioner. This "essay" is being circulated widely on right wing forums and by email. The idea is that people send it to newspapers as LTTE and to other places. It's a well-planned viral distribution program, and from the look of it, it will probably peak in late October.

Google Gray-Haired Brigade, and you'll find the same essay on a brazillian sites. You'll see it on your Facebook feed next week, no doubt.

[MineralMan]

100. Yup. It's circulating, and will peak right around election time.

It is going to appear everywhere, I'm sure.

[drm604]

103. When I google a line from that article, I get 73,000 results.

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22They+like+to+refer+to+us+as+senior+citizens%2C+old+fogies%2C+geezers%22

[MineralMan]

112. Yup. It's circulating widely. It's a planned viral distribution

of that document.

[JohnnyRingo]

216. Is that the same Eugene Bernascone who wrote this?

Then he must be either stupid or crazy. I imagine he got that LTTE from a RW web site that encourages people to cut & paste an article into their local paper. What a tool.

[antiquie]

237. That is just so sick

I cannot believe it was published.

[JohnnyRingo]

242. I believe it's just hilariously clumsy sentence structure.

He wasn't really trying to kill his stepchildren, this is just what happens when when a doddering old fool doesn't cut & paste words like he did in the "Seniors" letter.

[geckosfeet]

39. Of course. Discriminatory patriarchal monarchies always speak out against equality and fairness.

Even as they preach their so called doctrine of equality and fairness.

The real question is, how do so many people stay enamored of their nonsense? Even when they put it in print over and over again.

[treestar]

41. Yeah and I'd add that if people are pro-life they need to be even more against

the Reupublicans who start wars to kill people too. People are still people after they are born. The RC church seems to forget that sometimes.

[dynasaw]

42. Europe Planning to Tax the Vatican

Time to tax churches. Includes the catholic church and the Mormons. Both are deep pits of wealth,real estate and property. They want to ply their oars I. Politics then they'd damn well should be ready to pay taxes. The times for freeloading are over.

[smirkymonkey]

56. Good. I would love to see a separate thread about this if you have some

background information. Hopefully it will set a precedent for revoking TE status for all religious organizations that attempt to control the political decisions of its parishioners.

[backscatter712]

43. For historical fun, make your complaint in the form of 95 theses...

And nail them to the church door!

[mountain grammy]

44. Good for you for taking action

now send a copy to the IRS and to Americans United for Separation for Church and State. Barry Lynn's group will look into it.

[justiceischeap]

45. Does the Catholic Church still fund the Catholic Charities program?

I remember using them for therapy, where you paid on a sliding scale based on what you can afford... that's sorta like socialism isn't it?

[freshwest]

198. That I don't know; but the Catholic church does get faith-based gov. funds, like socialism.

So in getting funding from the government, they should not allowed to push a candidate. Or be allowed to discriminate. If it's all theirs from their private collections, fine. But they have always been a major lobbyist for govt. funds to help their programs, many churches use public help.

[Snotcicles]

46. Demand the hypocrites collar. nt

[Chorophyll]

47. Whatever happened to "The Catholic Worker" and Dorothy Day?

This is some depressing stuff. You're right to confront the priest.

[Baitball Blogger]

48. Turn them into the IRS.

[PearliePoo2]

49. Make lots of copies of that bulletin!

Then call your friends in the church and ask if they have seen it. Show it to the ones that haven't. Write your letter and ask all your like-minded, out-raged friends to sign it with you. Have your friends go WITH YOU and hand deliver the letter to the priest. Address all your concerns with this priest and encourage your friends to do so, face to face. Tell him WHY you are leaving.
Thank you for taking a stand. It's got to be very distressing for you. Don't back down.
Hat's off to you!

[Overseas]

50. Send the writer of that bulletin some fact checking of Lyan's speeches and ask him why those do not

upset him as much as the aspirations of young voters for a more compassionate society.

[mmonk]

55. We're joining a Franciscan Church that is attacking the R/R budget

and tackling the gobal warming issue (supports the environmental position).

[indivisibleman]

58. Thanks for posting this.

More people need to be reacting to these sorts of actions.
Years ago we started hearing statements in a church we were attending about Bill Clinton that were very similar to what you recently experienced. They said he was going to set our country back 40 years.
During our search for a new church we attended a primarily black church and there they were political in speech as well but this time in favor of the Democratic Party.
Any church that politicizes their message should not only lose their tax exemption status but also their congregation.

[trailmonkee]

59. remember the Bishop Sheridan who wanted to excommunicate Obama voters in 08'.. that's my guy...

We no longer go to church... Seriously fucked up politically... On a street level catholics do a great job with the poor, my uncle is a Franciscan priest who does great work in south america... But that doesn't mean i have to sit down and listen to their shite every weekend!

[progressivebydesign]

84. Was he the same one that refused to let Kerry have communion in 2004??

The Catholic Church has been overstepping the bounds for years. My feeling is that any church with its own bank has lost sight of what churches are supposed to be about.

[trailmonkee]

138. i think so

[marions ghost]

166. sorry you had to lose your church

I am not Catholic but grew up in the shadow of a Catholic church and school, so many friends were. I used to think highly of the church, because of all the good they do in the community.

I am sorry to see the majority of Catholic Churches line up with the fundies. I know it is sad for you.

I can't say good things about the Catholic church anymore. Not since they went radical like this.

[clydefrand]

62. I am right with you

I left the church I was attending because the pastor talked about Bill Clinton and his problems with the woman. I got up and left. Never been back since then and won't go to a church again unless it is a Unitarian.

[Roselma]

63. I haven't been back to Church or sent in a donation

since that business with the bishops fighting the HHS over the contraception coverage for affiliated hospitals, schools and charities. You know, I don't miss it. I don't think that God wants us to impose our beliefs on issues like contraception upon non-Catholics. I don't think that God feels that government should discriminate against couples wishing to get married, just because our Church opposes. I think that God probably isn't all that happy about us getting into the politics business anyway.

[Auntie Bush]

64. Save the bulletin. Proof that their church should lose their tax exemption..

Plus, what they said is disgusting and untrue! If some of these overtly political churches started losing their exemption the others would take notice and start mending their ways and stick to God talk.

[Lex]

65. Everyone tithes and pays together for the parish's expenses so why isn't he against that?

If he's so worried about "socialism."

[Initech]

67. This is why I'm 150% against religion and politics mixing.

That church should definitely give up tax exempt status.

[jillan]

74. You need to send this to the IRS-The only way we have to combat the political messaging in Churches

and other places of worship is people like you, standing up.

[jsr]

75. The Catholic bishops need to read this thread

and see why people don't show up anymore after they get baptized or married.

[jody]

77. Excellent action. Religious people in other countries can't do that without becoming a target of

government controlled by a single religion.

That's freedom of religion in action!

[progressivebydesign]

78. Just read it on their site and saved the pdf. "the LIKES of Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi"

Now that is just blatant politicking. Telling the "youngsters" that fell for the "hopes and Lies" in 2008. Goes on to say that the young folks who made that mistake in 2008, don't have to worry because the "gray haired geezers" are going to "take back the Country" in 2012.

That is one big nasty ball of hate on that church bulletin.

Also found it so interesting in the other article where they talk about leaving the church if you don't agree with their positions on "life and family." I can't fathom why any progressive person would be Catholic in this day and age. It's like openly joining a company that states right off the bat "we NEVER promote women into management."

[MrMickeysMom]

81. How about that socialist, Jesus, eh? What a season!

I tell you, the more I hear about what the "church says" about politics, the more I realize WHY I stopped attending religious organizations years ago. Every time I try to attend (usually Christmas), I see nothing to give me more faith than trying to live like Jesus did. This parish is a joke, so good for you for leaving it.

Do I need a religious organization to message me about how to live? That was a rhetorical questions. Of course, I don't. Some do... I don't.

In fact, organized religion happens to be one of the biggest examples I've ever seen of how people can stand on a soap box, decide to lie and then don't have to pay taxes.

I know not all churches behave this way, but enough do to piss off anyone's idealized myth of "do unto others".

[Tigress DEM]

82. Another parish did that and I think their diocese made them issue a retraction.

How does one report a parish to the IRS for tax fraud?

[classof56]

85. Last time I went to a Catholic Church the priest called me a heretic.

I had accompanied a visiting family member who's Catholic and wanted to attend mass. She was absolutely beside herself at the priest's words (said her priest in PA would never have said that), and while I found it slightly amusing, I did take offense. It's been awhile since I walked out of a Southern Baptist church never to return, because of their stand against a gay marriage measure on the ballot, going so far as collecting money to defeat it as folks exited the church after the (of course) anti-gay sermon. I was disgusted beyond words, and have pretty much given up on "mainstream christianity", which I followed almost from birth. For years it had not occurred to me that christians were going to be their own undoing, but here we are. I'm ready for some heavy-duty smiting from above, but meanwhile I fully agree that you should report your church's political stance to the IRS. Let's put an end to the tax exemption status. Somehow I feel Jesus would approve!

Blessings and OBAMA/BIDEN 2012

[Major Nikon]

177. I would consider that a compliment

Especially coming from a representative of an institution that fosters misogyny, xenophobia, intolerance, pedophilia, and uses a 2,000 yr old tome attributed to illiterate goat herders as their moral compass.

It's like wingnuts who accuse me of "just not getting it". Yep I don't, and that's a good thing.

[classof56]

193. Now that you put it that way, yeah...I'll take it as a compliment, given the church's history.

I like your list--covers the bases, and they really don't have much to recommend them, do they? Or any so-called christian institution, actually. I won't be going back to it or any church if I can avoid it in the future (the occasional funeral comes to mind). Pretty sure they won't miss me!

Thanks for the reality check!

OBAMA/BIDEN 2012

[begin_within]

89. Here's what else you can do...

Prepare a note that is the same size as a dollar bill.
Have it say something like "This would have been $20, if you had not put that disgusting political article in last week's bulletin."
Put it inside an anonymous collection envelope and drop it in the collection basket.
Then they will be forced to read it when they count the money Monday morning.
For 50 more weeks, put a similar note, saying it would have been $20 had they not published a political article.
On the 52nd week, the final note should say, "So you lost over $1000 from us because you turned political."
I did a similar thing after Proposition 8 passed in California.

[The Wizard]

90. If the Church wants to intervene in the

affairs of State, then it shouldn't mind paying for that privilege.

[davidwparker]

91. I know what you mean. It's the same reason I cannot go to the Baptist congregation at the end

of my street. I've seen seen a place so politically charged.

[NYC Liberal]

92. My great-grandfather was Catholic, and also a huge supporter of FDR.

He lived in a small town where he was a well-known attorney and the family had given a lot of money to the local church.

On one particular Sunday he, his wife, and the 5 kids (including my grandmother) went to Mass as usual. They had their own pew, right up in front. The priest during his homily started going off on FDR and Eleanor (called her a whore, among other nasty things).

My great-grandfather got up and led the entire family out of the building in the middle of this rant, then later that day called this priest personally and totally ripped into him -- told him among other things that he didn't go to church to hear some priest's right-wing bullshit.

Needless to say there were no more such rants in the future.

[Mariana]

169. How does it work

when the rich parishioners who give a lot of money to the church want to hear their particular political views being preached?

[NYC Liberal]

174. An extra Benjamin directly in the priest's pocket, maybe?

[Cha]

171. What a family

legacy, NYC Liberal!

[HopeHoops]

94. Send a copy of it to the local paper.

[AlbertCat]

95. Be sure to mention....

.... that those statements about the "Big Lie" are a big lie.

"Tasted Socialism"...what the hell is he talking about?


Perhaps the parish should not expect or depend on any money collected from the congregation. Smacks of socialism!

[pangaia]

98. Here is a link.

http://www.stmarkrcc.com/documents/982349%20September%2016%202012.pdf

My god this is dis-"grace"-ful. Sick. Ignorant, fascist, hateful, mindless, blind, stupid idiots. Most of these old farts are on SS, get Medicare, Medicaid, use the fire dept, police dept, roads, their grand kids use public schools, church pays NO TAXES,... What in the living hell is wrong with them..??

[LovingA2andMI]

102. I.E.--Violation of Church and State Clause of the U.S. Constitution...

And their 501.c.3 non-profit status. Send this information to the IRS, as noted earlier in this thread.

[progree]

105. Churches are allowed to preach & advocate on the issues. But not for or against a specific candidate

So a church may speak out for civil rights (e.g. black churches) or for or against gay marriage or socialism or deficit spending or free birth control pills or any other generic issue. But not for or against any candidate or political party.

http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2012/09/13/good-question-are-churches-allowed-to-say-vote-yes-or-vote-no/

That said, the church bulletin was so obviously advocating against Obama, even if it didn't say "Obama", that yes, you should send it to the IRS. And Americans United For Separation for Church and State -- au.org. I am a member of the latter and love their "Church and State" magazine which is all online. They seem to have a ton of resources, they get involved in almost everything relative to church-state separation.

On Edit: added a space in the title to separate 2 words run together.

[Festivito]

106. Your donation is not as big as the GOP's donation.

Hey, if your salary were to go from 30K to 80K if you add a couple somewhat innocuous tidbits to your reports, you'd be tempted as well.

Don't leave, that plays into their plans. Agitate!

[titaniumsalute]

108. I left the Catholic Church many years ago

Way too political for me. And their social BS is eactly that...BS. We became members of a First United MEthodist Church. Very accepting, non-judgmental, mostly working to help those leff fortunate.

[d_r]

109. link to irs rules for tax exempt

this completely violates it - an official church publication endorsing candidate

http://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-Profits/Churches-&-Religious-Organizations

[jody]

110. Understand your anger but in context it’s caused by a portion of the program attributed to the Gray

Haired Brigade. Could it be that one person used her/his authority to write a portion of the program and neither the priest nor others vetted the contentious portion?

Well, don’t worry youngsters, the Gray Haired Brigade is here, and in 2012 we are going to take back our nation. We may drive a little slower than you would like but we get where we’re going, and in 2012 we’re going to the polls by the millions. This land does not belong to the man in the White House or to the likes of Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid. It belongs to “We the People” and “We the People” plan to reclaim our land and our freedom. We hope this time you will do a better job of preserving it and passing it along to our grandchildren. So the next time you have the chance to say the Pledge of Allegiance, stand up, put your hand over your heart, honor our country, and thank God for the old geezers of the “Gray-Haired Brigade”

[pangaia]

113. I just emailed that ignorant church

Do I dare post what I said? I don't think so. :&gt )

[jonthebru]

114. Remember to include

that the tax exempt status of religious organizations is based on them not being overtly political.
Oh, and also what they printed were lies perpetrated by brainwashed idiots.

[rwsanders]

116. My wife and I sympathize...

We're protestant and tend toward charismatic churches, so this has been a huge problem for us. We even tried a church where the majority were African-American, but still had to sit through an endorsement of the Repugnant party.
It is funny they chose socialism as the issue because C.S. Lewis said that if a government were to be based on the bible, it would probably be socialist.
I have challenged pastors and bible school graduates to sit with me and compare each and every plank of the Repugnant platform with the bible and so far none has dared. Not that I have any great knowledge (I'd have to rely on Jim Wallis' "God's Politics) but it is telling that they KNOW that what they believe (politically) doesn't line up with the bible.
We have finally been blessed with a church where the politics is left outside (the pastor doesn't even do the usual "patriotic" speal on Memorial Day. We pray you find a church home that is just as inclusive.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

117. Whatever happened to Charity and Mercy?

Was it replaced by "get a job you bum"?

[REK72]

118. Religious indignation

Yesterday I was listening to NPR's show, "Wait, Wait - Don't Tell Me" and heard this line. When asked what the next great uprising in righteous religious indignation would be, the guest replied: The Catholic Council of Bishops would scream "blasphemy" when Clint Eastwood tries to reenact the Council of Trent using a complete dining room set as a prop.

[Hulk]

119. Condolences.....

I am also a Catholic....born, baptized, and brought up in the Catholic faith. I remember serving mass at 5 am at the convent often...so private and felt so spiritual. I was an altar boy my entire grade school years, and I even served for funerals and weddings after grade school. I was quite seriously considering the ministry, as I went to Mt Angel, and if things had been just a little different, I can't help but believe I would have joined the priesthood. Ouch!
Sent all my kids to Catholic schools. Had them receive all the sacraments...and now...I'm totally away from the Church..and have been since the Bush-fiasco. I lived in Mexico for five years, and I became acutely aware of how evil the Catholic Church has been throughout history: the Inquisition, exploitation of the indigenous in the New World, the poisonous molesting of children and COVER-UP by the Church, and now, their political stand AGAINST what Jesus himself would have been on the opposing side for...except perhaps abortion...and I'm anti-abortion, but pro-choice.

I found ONE Catholic Church here in Portland, Oregon, that actually practices the way of Christ. It is totally a socialistic parish. They run a food kitchen, shelter the homeless, are internationally involved in sending goods and money south to Latin America where it is desperately needed; but OMG....so rare to find. The parishioners are all "60's hippies", and they are a pleasure to sit next to and sing with, and hold hands and hug and share with. But this is so rare, and so out of the ordinary for the Catholic faith.

We recently visited a neighborhood Catholic Church, and I'm disgusted. The same crap you ran into. Stuffy, "go-to-church.....now-I'm-a-good-Christian" mentality. Cold as stone. Just the mass...and nothing personal at all..until it comes to being anti-Obama. Sickened and saddened. I guess I'm done with Catholicism until and if it should ever get it's head out of it's ass and start actually following the teachings of Christ.

I feel bad for you..but you aren't alone. There are MILLIONS of us who have left, and can no longer take the hypocrisy and crime that belongs in Rome and in our neighborhood churches. It's a sad day for Christ. It's a sad day for Christians.

[spartan61]

164. Thank you for this beautiful post.

You wrote the words that I am actually feeling in my heart. I wish I could go to the church in Portland, Oregon you spoke about. Yes, most Catholic churches are stone cold, nothing personal. It is a sad day for Christians, indeed.

[Lint Head]

120. Action. I love it. I have done the same thing in the past.

The teaching and worship of God or any other spiritual journey should not be poisoned with politics. In Christianity Jesus said to render unto Ceasar. He render himself to the point of letting the politics of the day crucify him.

[cstanleytech]

121. I should hope that you also send a copy of the bulletin to the IRS.

After all they might have crossed the line that gives them that tax exemption with the IRS and if so it does need to be reported.

[radhika]

221. Excellent point: They need to lose their tax exemption n/t

[panzerfaust]

122. Welcome to the world.

You are born again, in reason.



Congratulations

[Live and Learn]

124. Isn't it odd that an agency that is supposed to care about social issues

would criticize an economic system that is designed for the social good of all the people?

[Indpndnt]

125. Scan the sermon, post it here, and we'll all send it to the IRS, so they can't miss it. (nt)

[just1voice]

126. I've had several in-person discussions with a few ministers and priests whom

were of the same mindset. Sometimes other people were involved in the conversations as well and all the discussions ended with the idea that the ministers and priests were totally delusional hypocrites who didn't deserve to be in a position where they gave people spiritual advice.

Sad but true.

[pittipat]

127. What Florida Parish. We had same experience in Florida.

Hey, spartan61 what Florida parish? We had an experience during the 2008 election at Sacred Heart Catholic Church in Punta Gorda, FL and haven't been back since. In his homily, an old, "over the hill" priest, was extolling the virtues of John the Baptist and then compared Bill O'Reilly to John's bravery. My husband and I immediately stood up and left by the front door. Walking all the way from the front row and slamming the door on our way out. And, when Tom Rooney was running for Congress the first time, he showed up in church and was introduced as Congressman Tom Rooney. Since it was only the primary, and he had two other opponents, that raised quite a stink. Oh, there's more, but that enough. Good for you.

[WCGreen]

144. That was my mom's parish and we had her funeral there....

The priest who said mass obviously didn't have any idea who m mom was and it sounded as if he didn't. We had service for her up here in Cleveland and it went mush better. The Parish my sister belongs to was an inner city church that was notoriously liberal in it's approach.

[plethoro]

128. Good show. Action needs to be taken against that church....................nft

dddddddddddd

[sulphurdunn]

129. It would be interesting

to know how many church bulletins carried a similar message nationally, if any. If a pattern emerged it would make for interesting speculation.

[MessiahRp]

217. If you could get a list of every church involved, you could take a huge GOP network down

provided the IRS acts upon it. Make no mistake a HUGE part of the GOP strategy is subverting the law and using these churches as propaganda machines.

[Alduin]

131. Turn them in to the government.

They should have NO tax-exempt status if they're politicizing.

[Warpy]

132. I agree with the above, send it to the IRS

with a note that any organization that engages in politics should be taxed as a political organization.

Then write a letter of complaint, a pungent one, and send it in to the church offices. Do mention that parishoners are choosing between a dishonest man giving lip service to ending legal abortion and a man who is working to correct the economy and who is following the words of the Bishops on alleviating the misery in this country. Send it.

Then do consider whether or not it's time to drive an extra 15 minutes on Sunday to find a better parish or even whether it's time to join the Church of England in order to get away from antiabortionists with blinders on who can't see the horrible damage Republicans are doing to this country.

Oh, and also make sure the collection plate is considerably lighter while you're deciding all of this.

The parishes will change when the people in them force change and the right wing dimwit who wrote that bulletin is back to polishing the brass on the candle rack.

There is absolutely nothing you can do about the blinkered, pig ignorant hierarchy. However, you can budge your own church if you dig your heels in and fight. If they won't change, take a hike. They are being unchristian.

[lastlib]

134. You should also forward a copy to Americans United for Separation of Church & State....

...and the ACLU. They would love to hear about it.

http://www.au.org/

http://www.aclu.org/

[blueknight]

135. no disrespect intended

but i believe organized religion is some sort of mental illness. i have'nt been in a church in years and feel i still have a relationship with god. what you are talking about occured in the church i attended back when clinton ran against old man bush. i havent been in a church since.

after years of watching these nutcases on tv begging for money, molesting kids, stealing from their parishoners and the like, i really believe you have to have some mental illness to believe in organized religion.

[tawadi]

136. This does not surprise me at all. eom

[HockeyMom]

137. They think they are empowered because of "relgious tolerance"

due to the contraception mandate, gay marriage, Cardinal Dolan of NYC, and Prop 8 (public money to religoius organization) in Florida.

What they don't realize is that they are walking a very fine line here with endorsing a specific party and specific candidates. Maybe if enough people complain they will get the message? Shut up or lose your tax exempt status.

I haven't been to Mass in 20 years so I don't know if they are saying this in Naples churches. AVE MARIA? What do you think? Given the demographics of the population (right wing Republicans), it wouldn't surprise me.

[vlyons]

139. Don't forget to let your bishop know

that you are leaving the parish because of this. The rector of your church needs a reprimand from his bishop.

[AnnieBW]

141. I Fully Agree!

When my Dad passed away, we went to the Mass that he usually ushered at, to let all of his friends know that he'd died the day before. The priest, who is normally quite nice, went on this extended rant against contraception and was criticizing Michelle Obama for saying that she was a Christian, but her husband's administration was stomping on the Church's Freedom of Religion by forcing them to pay for low-cost contraception. If it wasn't my Dad's Mass, I would have stood up and walked right out.

[go west young man]

142. When Roberts sided for the health care recently

one local church here in Brunswick, Georgia posted "Forgive them Lord for they know not what they do" on their sign by side of the road. The churches in general have become way too political these days. They need to lose their tax exempt status and pay tax like everybody else. They are just one more cog in the corrupt wheels of our nation. No one in their right mind buys that religious bullshit they are peddling these days. If Jesus were around he would boot their asses to the curb. Down here in Georgia all voting is done in the churches. One more way to keep everyone on a certain mindset by the puritanical assholes.

[busterbrown]

145. Its simple....

People who understand the positive tenets of Social Democratic principals
are a real threat to those who get on a stage and make a living scaring
people with stories about devils and angels.
Almost like a bar tender working the room. Its all about the tips.

[penndragon69]

147. Using govt. tax dollars to subsidize the church

is also a form of SOCIALISM.

But of course, this is the "GOOD" socialism.

HYPOCRITES !

[FirstLight]

148. I'd also copy the piece and send it to the local Newspaper!

That way you can share the hypocritical actions of the Catholic Church in Florida and get the word out to more people....

[patrice]

153. +1google! - Any and all of them & post it everywhere on the internet with appropriate cites.

[SunSeeker]

150. Not only are they playing politics, but they're LYING to their parishioners.

They are not people who follow Jesus Christ's teachings, that's for sure.

[VPStoltz]

155. You need to write first to the media and then your elected respresentatives and THEN

the Bishop, Cardinal, etc.
I totally agree with you on the tax status and many, many churches should have lost it by now.

[Rhiannon12866]

156. K&R and kudos to you!!!

Just before he 2004 election, I read a handout from the Church on how they felt you should vote and why. I was pretty horrified. In the past two elections I've worked for my Democratic congressman, just walked in and asked what I could do. It really does make a difference!

[BarackTheVote]

158. Don't let them chase you out! Christ was the original bleeding heart liberal!

I started going to this Catholic youth group Life Teen when I was 13 or 14; by the time I was 15, I was on their junior core as their webmaster. I remained part of the core off and on for the next twelve years, mostly during the summer when I was off from College. In March, I think it was, our Bishop gained national notoriety for calling Catholics who voted for candidates who voted in favor of abortion "Judas Iscariots." Obviously, this is one of the worst things you can call a Catholic, and it reeked of politicking and, indeed, bullying. I stopped contributing to the local parish and went off on Jenky on my facebook:

Dear Bishop Jenky, I will not be bullied. I will vote my conscience. I will not kowtow to plutocrats who wish to destroy the middle class and create a nation of indentured slaves. I will not succumb to fear-mongers who would have us at war with the entire world and every culture beyond their delicate WASP sensibilities. You are socially irresponsible. You are alienating the people who will only hear the Gospel if spoken with the gentle, all-loving voice of Christ. The world you would have us build will be a dystopia far more horrifying than whatever you think you perceive today. You would create a world of fear and desperation. Abortion is a symptom of a disease that would only fester and metastasize in your world. We strike at the core illness, poverty of body, mind, and spirit; we uplift and grant freedom, we lay the foundation of Maslow's Hierarchy of Need, which, unlike the Catholic hierarchy, is something everyone, regardless of race, culture, or creed, abides. You will destroy the Church in America just as your predecessors destroyed the Church in France. Secularism thrives where your type of rhetoric prevails and people will shut you off and leave the altar en masse. I for one will stay. A Catholic Democrat, as disgusting as that might be for you.

Well, for that, I was unceremoniously kicked out of the youth group I had spent more than a decade helping and supporting, undefended by my so-called friends on the core. But I'm not going anywhere. I still believe in the sacraments, the communion of saints, the core dogmas, the historicity of the Catholic claim, and the social justice doctrines. I think the hierarchy is going through another period where it's on the wrong side of history, but they're just men. The Church is bigger than them. Eventually, I believe, the Church will get back on track, but only if the progressive laity stands firm and doesn't allow itself to be driven away. After all, we are ALL priests, prophets, and kings, and we all have a part in the ultimate direction in which the Church walks into the future.

Christ was the original Bleeding Heart Liberal:
http://bp0.blogger.com/_GK9vk5xxaSs/Rmcb9tlh7QI/AAAAAAAABNc/Y0sAn85NnEk/s1600/Sacred+Heart+of+Jesus.jpg

[Cynicus Emeritus]

159. Ask your priest if the war with Iran that Romney

will certainly lead us into, gives him hope and change? Romney and Ryan will be a repeat of Bush and Cheney. Every POTUS needs his own war.

I agree with others that this needs to be sent to the IRS as an example of religious interference in politics. It needs to be nipped in the bud before it becomes full fledged corrupt cronyism. We're allowing our institutions to get away with lying, cheating, and stretching the laws without ever being held accountable.

[crunch60]

160. Good for you!! The Catholic Church has long ago forgotten about separation of

church and state. They indeed should Not have tax exempt status. Please send this bulletin to the IRS. I left the RCC long ago because of this and many other issues with their teachings.

[99Forever]

162. Not only should you resign...

... you should also file a complaint with the IRS for the tax fraud these bastards are committing and demand their tax exempt status be revoked.

[naaman fletcher]

163. That's what you get for going to church.

If I went to hell, I would expect to get burned.

[The Old Creak]

191. Amen

and amen!

[femrap]

165. !!!

Last edited Wed Oct 3, 2012, 10:50 PM - Edit history (1)

[marions ghost]

167. Sorry you had to leave your church

Sounds like you are strong enough to weather it.

Thanks for telling us about this. The Catholic Church has gone off the rails as bad as the Evangelicals.

[Marrah_G]

168. Will you be telling your church you will no longer be attending or giving them moeny?

[BlueStreak]

170. Why do you need some institution to tell you how to think?

Think for yourself.

Act for yourself.

When you do that, you may realize that organized religion is no more needed than organized crime.

[Zorra]

238. +1,000,000,000

"Each one must learn the highest wisdom for her/himself. It cannot be taught with words"
--Smohala

[Cha]

173. Been reading the posts..

How ironic that the Church's newsletter is being used for LIES("the devil'sl work&quot . They definitely need to be made aware of this. Thanks for bringing it to our attention, spartan!

[liberal N proud]

176. Report the church to the IRS

They want to play politics, they should pay taxes.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

179. Call the Archbishop and explain that

the Church has no business in politics...........

[emsimon33]

180. I also stopped going to church (Methodist) because of all the hate and lies "in the name of Jesus"

Any church that takes a political stand as your church did should have its tax free status revoked. In face, revoking the tax free status of churches and religious groups is not such a bed idea...period!

[hue]

181. Your reaction is a Christian one! Thanks for sharing!!

The early Christians lived in communities and practiced loving one another!!

I was born & raised Catholic, but left many years ago---ahh, sooo many reasons for leaving!!
The wealthiest non for profit (including real estate assets, historical treasures including jewels, gold, art, libraries etc.) organization in the world while continuing to collect pennies from the poor at mass, institutionalization and enabling of pedophiles, forbidding birth control including condoms for those who could not afford to feed & clothe the children they had, excommunication of those who love each other of the same sex, their total war on science & the scientific method with their inquisitions, burning of "witches", the Crusades, and I could go on & on....

[pittipat]

182. Best yet!

You got that right!

[47of74]

183. I left the Catholic church several months ago...

Ten years, five years, or even a year ago I thought I would live out my life as a Catholic. Despite all the wrong the church leadership had done I was still committed to the church. Sure, I thought of leaving from time to time, but the good in the parish I was part of outweighed the wrong that was being done in the church by the leadership.

But last February it all came crashing down for me. I had my fill of the Bishops and their self serving arrogance when they started complaining about how their poor precious religious liberty was being taken away from them. I had my fill when they put their own political power ahead of serving humanity. I had my fill when Bishops started comparing our President to Hitler and Stalin. I had my fill when I saw the nuns being attacked by the leadership for doing what Christ actually wanted them to do - take care of the poor and the sick. I had my fill when I saw the nastiness that conservatives in the church had for their neighbor who didn't look, think, act, or believe as they did.

Since then I've been going to Episcopal services. I feel comfortable in them, enough so that I hope to be received in November when the Bishop makes a visit to the parish. I feel more at home there then I did in the Catholic church. And it's liberating to be able to be more open in my own personal beliefs.

[Ilsa]

184. Good for you. A change can be just what you need.

I hope you continue to find peace there.

[Zoeisright]

185. Good for you for leaving the church.

And yes, report them to the IRS.

[DeSwiss]

186. Don't stop there......

...report them to the IRS.

K&R

[grr8wine]

187. Exactly why I don't attend church.

[tomm2thumbs]

253. yup yup.... it's all a mess of politics and greed

disguised as a 'mission from God' in many cases (not all) but enough of the big ones that make it something to avoid if you want to beat the odds

even my mormon cousin left the church after they began publicly supporting political measures DURING services, like Prop 8, etc. At some point, you realize they are frauds

_____

btw, welcome to DU!

[fadedrose]

188. Do you think the priest would like some mail?

Our post offices could use the business.....let everyone know his address....

[BSUbluNorange]

189. I feel your pain but as a Mormon

I've emailed many a member who have incorporated anti Obama comments into their sermons. Normally they are surprised to hear I support Obama and it leads to good discussions and apologies.

[Doctor_J]

194. It's time for the catholic church to lose its tax exempt status

it's a PAC, not a church

[yawnmaster]

196. Can you scan that and post it on here? eom

[riderinthestorm]

202. Someone else found it and posted it upthread in #38

Looks like its designed to go viral and hit the email circuit in a big way in another month - just in time for election fever.

[cheriemedium59]

197. I used to belong to the Catholic church..

But years ago I took my 5 year old daughter with me to mass and right by the doors coming in they had a magazine with aborted fetuses and a box of baby shoes representing abortions. I called the church and gave them a piece of my mind and left. Never went back. I go to an Episcopal church now.

[RKP5637]

201. Many of us have parted ways with the church, so many churches have become a very negative

voice.

[rasputinkhlyst]

203. Also need to complain to the IRS regarding tax exempt status stature being violated.

[demosincebirth]

204. Leaving or seeking another parish?

[RagAss]

205. You wouldn't be furious coming home from church...if you didn't go to begin with....

What did you expect from a church that took a hard right turn and installed an ex-Nazi as pope?

[Kingofalldems]

206. Pope John Paul was a socialist

[tavernier]

207. I left my church over thirty years ago

when the priest stood up on the pulpit and called the nuns of the church harlots and whores because they dared to express the desire to preach the gospel. The NERVE!

Funny how those moments of epiphany sneak up on you in life.

[Brainstormy]

208. And they all said

AMEN! Good for you. I personally abandoned my own Atlanta church in '96 when the pastor preached about not allowing gays to compete in Olympic volleyball. I've never looked back.

[Lionessa]

209. You should sue him for using your tithings for political partisanship which is clearly

not okay with the IRS, so turn him in there, and because of the IRS issue, you would've felt confident it wouldn't be spent thusly.

Not only do you folks need to leave these types of churches, you need to find a way to hold them accountable.

[joanbarnes]

210. I left my parish in 2004 when they told us how to vote on gay marriage.

[lindysalsagal]

212. Welcome to awake. We've missed you.

Sorry it hurts so much, but that passes. Promise.

[dpbrown]

213. Not only that, but Jesus was a socialist

He preached about taking care of the least among us. Social activism is exactly what Christianity is supposed to be all about.

[JohnnyRingo]

214. It'd be hard to trust anything the local priest says from here on.

If he's so deluded about the president's "socialist" ways, what else is he getting wrong? Certainly he's judging the president's morality in a way I feel is incorrect.

I'd pose that question personally and inquire if he maintains a political hit list. If so, why? Does he find inspiration in "Hannitys America"?

[RoccoR5955]

215. Take that bulletin STRAIGHT to the IRS

See that they have to pay for getting political.

At least see that they roll back that crap in the future!

[xmas74]

220. Contact the parish priest first and find out if he even knows that this is in the bulletin.

At the church I attend neither the senior pastor nor the associate pastor put together the bulletin or the biweekly newsletters-it's a volunteer, often someone retired in the congregation. The bulletin is very straight forward, only containing info about the service with an insert about upcoming activities for the week. The newsletter has additional info, including things that the congregation members are doing.

We had something similar to this a few years ago. Turns out the pastor had no idea that was actually in there until it was pointed out. After that incident the person who did it was no longer allowed to be in charge of the bulletins or the newsletters and all further info had to be approved before printed. They left the church shortly thereafter.

Just check with your priest. They might not even know it was in the bulletin.

[Jack Sprat]

222. If more people react this way,

then the churches would bury their political forays for good. The church brass need to be confronted by their parishioners. They have no business seeking dominion over a person's political beliefs, of all things.

[King_Klonopin]

223. "All politics is local"

Political leanings of specific churches tend to reflect the
demographics of the area.

I don't like political speeches mingled with the Homily either.

I have had to sit through the editorial comments of how
"Obamacare" was an attack on religious freedom (referring to the
whole contraception flap) and, just this Sunday, that we should
vote against a ballot referendum on MD assisted suicide.

IF I am voting according to my faith and belief in Jesus, I'm going
to vote for the Democrat every time.

"Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's, render unto God what is God's."

I try to keep the two separate -- like it says in The Constitution.

[GTurck]

227. I read a good many...

of the responses and what I read never mentioned the higher authority, the bishop or cardinal, that the parish priest must obey. If the letter is the work of the priest then send it to the diocesan offices. Some priests also belong to communities like Franciscans, Sacred Heart, etc. and they have superiors as well who should be informed.
I am having problems as well with our parish and the right ward list of the church in general because they are concentrating not on the poor, the sick, the hungry, and the neglected but on abortion and homosexual marriage issues. Mostly our priest sounds like he has listened to Faux too much and that has made my fewer and fewer visits to mass very uncomfortable.
When I came into the church it was just a decade after Vatican II and we lived in a suburb of Chicago. Much more open, satisfying and aware than now.

[Mapletonian]

229. Leaving the Church...

Music to my ears!

[DippyDem]

230. I just read the bulletin.

The same letter also encourages us to pledge allegiance to the US. It would be interesting to know that the pledge was written by a socialist.

2. The Pledge of Allegiance was written by a socialist.

The Pledge was written in 1892 for public school celebrations of the 400th anniversary of Columbus’ arrival in the Americas. Its author was Francis Bellamy, a Baptist minister, Christian socialist and cousin of socialist utopian novelist Edward Bellamy. Christian socialism maintains, among other ideas, that capitalism is idolatrous and rooted in greed, and the underlying cause of much of the world’s social inequity. Definitely more “Occupy Wall Street” than “Grand Old Party” by anyone’s standard.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/09/04/1127663/-Ten-True-Facts-Guaranteed-to-Short-Circuit-Republican-Brains

[Hubert Flottz]

231. Don't write the church

Write the IRS...

And go here and sign up to this letter to your reps...

http://taxthechurches.org/quotes.html

Hang on to the bulletin. Make some copies to send to others and scan and post!

[davidthegnome]

232. One of the reasons I left the church.

God and politics should not mix. For me though, it was more the child abuse and ultimately the fact that the Vatican continued to condemn homosexuals.

[TheCowsCameHome]

233. Tax the churches.

If they want to stray into the political arena, let them pay.

[samplegirl]

234. Turn this priest into the Diocese

As I am sure he is not allowed to publish this.

[jrjan1]

235. I feel like a good friend has died

I went to Catholic school as a child and have rarely miss Mass throughout my entire life. Sitting there now, I feel like a hypocrit. I cannot get it out of my head that the church has boiled all our social problems down to 2 issues - Abortion and birth control, instead of looking at the problems right outside it's door.

I feel like one of my best friends has died and my heart is so heavy. I am hoping that others who feel the way we do, also boycott Mass. When the priests start preaching to empty pews, maybe they will understand that we are not in the middle ages any longer.

[annabanana]

248. I'm sorry that you're hurting.

May I refer you to Stephen Colbert? He has managed to love his Church, warts and all, and still advocated for it's best impulses.

[mgardener]

236. Write a letter to your newspaper

Write a letter to your Pastor but also write one to your newspaper and explain how you feel. More people will read it and may get people thinking. Your pastor certainly will not read it at Mass! Send the letter and bulletin to the IRS. Also send a copy to your Bishop.
Perhaps in the letter to the newspaper you should suggest that the Catholic church should not longer ask for donations for the church or it's charities. Socialism! Also tell your church it should not receive anymore tax deductions.

I am sick that the Catholic church has teamed up with these extremist religious right wingers. They are aligned with them for abortion, contraception and same sex marriage. But they have dragged themselves down into the filth.

Good Luck and write those letters and send that bulletin to the IRS!

[Tommy_Carcetti]

239. Report it to the archdiocese. I'm serious.

Knowing the general conservative (at least in terms of social issues and issues of church administration) tendencies, you might not think they'd do much, but you'd be surprised. The U.S. Catholic Church in general, while frequently commenting on various issues, makes a strong point not to venture into advocacy for or against any particular candidate. I'm in Florida, a regular practicing Catholic, and I remember back in 2004 when you heard some people demanding John Kerry be refused communion, the Diocese of Palm Beach issued a statement that they required to be read which stated in no uneqivocal terms that the sacrament of Eucharist was not to be used as a weapon for partisan politics and that the Church was taking no position for or against any candidate.

If it's not a statement of princple, it's at least a statement of basic economics as the Church does not want to lose its IRS exempt status.

Just curious, who wrote the piece? Was it the pastor? Another priest? A parishioner?

Before you do anything too drastic, I might first contact the priest and demand a retraction and repudiation in the next week's bulliten. If that doesn't work, contact the Archdiocese and you might be surprised how hard they would come down in the situation.

I wouldn't necessarily use this as an excuse to leave the greater Catholic Church, though. Instead, look around for another parish. You'd be surprised how many progressive minded priests there are out there, at least as it relates to social justice issues (i.e. help for the poor and vulnerable). That is, after all, the Christian bedrock and using the church to argue against "socialism" is hypocricy at its highest. I would actually say members of the clergy who do not preach the "social gospel" are in a minority, so chances are a neighboring parish might have a much better outlook on things.

[SemperEadem]

241. quite frankly, that church needs a challenge to their tax exemption

you have proof positive that they are involved in political speech. They need to ante up some tax.

[progree]

243. Churches in politics articles & press releases from Americans United 4 Separation of Church & State

Pew Ado: Catholic Leaders Endorse Candidates Despite Growing Flock Objections
http://www.au.org/blogs/wall-of-separation/pew-ado-catholic-leaders-endorse-candidates-despite-growing-flock

----------------------------------------

Americans United Advises Houses Of Worship To Refrain From Partisan Electioneering
With Religious Right Pushing Churches To Go Political, Watchdog Group Sends 60,000 Cautionary Letters To Religious Leaders
http://www.au.org/media/press-releases/americans-united-advises-houses-of-worship-to-refrain-from-partisan

----------------------------------------

Americans United Asks IRS To Investigate El Paso Church That Urged Parishioners To Vote Against Obama
Church-State Watchdog Group Says St. Raphael’s Church May Have Violated Federal Law With Election Intervention
http://www.au.org/media/press-releases/americans-united-asks-irs-to-investigate-el-paso-church-that-urged-parishioners

------------------------------------------------

[progree]

244. I alerted Americans United For Separation of Church & State to this thread

telling them that 455 recommendations is very rare (I've never seen more than 200).

http://www.au.org

[spartan61]

254. Thank you.

I also sent them a copy of the article and wrote how it really struck a nerve with so many when I posted about reading it in the church bulletin.

[George II]

245. Remind your priest that Jesus was a socialist!

[Twofoolsarguing]

246. If I were in your shoes

I would speak to the priest first before taking extreme measures. As others have mentioned it may have been slipped in by a volunteer.... At any rate it is better to try to address things directly before running off to the govt and media.

[tk2kewl]

247. if the church is against socialism they should stop passing the basket too

how about liquidating some of the gold at the vatican to keep things running

[AngryAmish]

249. Shit in a box and mail it to them.

[BlueInPhilly]

250. One parish does not the Catholic Church make

Every single Catholic parish church reports to the Vatican. Try revoking the Vatican's tax exempt status. It is never that simple.

[1StrongBlackMan]

251. I attended a Community Church ...

here in Tucson. I met the Pastor while playing golf ... he was from West Texas and was a hard-core anti-racist.

Though I've never been a religionist, I do appreciate a good bible-based sermon regarding man's duty to look after one another. And I appreciated a church that was involved in community service, like feeding the poor, organizing health/dental care clinics, operating job banks for the unemployed. So this church was perfect for me.

I stopped going to that church on the Wednesday following 9/11, when this once tolerant Pastor spent the entire service talking about the evils of Islam ... Not radical Islam, but everything Islamic ... and used the Bible to do it. This really troubled me ... so that night, I e-mailed the Pastor about my disappointment in both him and his message. The upshot of my e-mail was: "to argue Islam is evil because some of its adherents did evil, without also condemning Christianity as evil is plain wrong. Yes, Islam has its fringe; just as christianity has the kkk ... both of which do bad stuff in the name of their respective religions."

This led to a 3 week e-mail and in-person dialogue that ended with his disinviting me from attending his church because "I obviously had no clue as to the true nature of Islam", to which I stated that he "obviously had choosen to ignore significant portions of the teachings of Christ."

That ended my Christian journey in that church.

[Egalitarian Thug]

252. Jesus the Christ; The most famous Socialist in history.

Matthew 19:21
Luke 12:33
Acts 4

and so on and on and on.