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*Debbie Dingel on Lawrence Show now. (Original Post) elleng Jun 2020 OP
She's right oswaldactedalone Jun 2020 #1
Yes, she's right now, and she was right then. elleng Jun 2020 #2
Hillary didn't lose Michigan because of Trump having strong support. Drunken Irishman Jun 2020 #4
It's hard. Drunken Irishman Jun 2020 #3

oswaldactedalone

(3,491 posts)
1. She's right
Wed Jun 17, 2020, 10:55 PM
Jun 2020

She’s a potential canary in the coal mine. This same pollster said that Hillary was up by 11 on 10/6/16 and Michigan was in the bag. Dingell says she’s still hearing strong support of Trump in her district. Polling is like the cartoon page of political campaigns. Good for a laugh but has no effect on the business of winning elections.

elleng

(131,129 posts)
2. Yes, she's right now, and she was right then.
Wed Jun 17, 2020, 10:57 PM
Jun 2020

Glad she said she's receiving different responses from Biden camp now than from HRC camp then.

 

Drunken Irishman

(34,857 posts)
4. Hillary didn't lose Michigan because of Trump having strong support.
Wed Jun 17, 2020, 11:32 PM
Jun 2020

This is actually kind of a myth that has built up over the last few years.

Trump didn't see a surge of support in Michigan. At least, not at the level people suggest.

In 2012, Romney won 44.58% of the vote in Michigan.
In 2016, Trump won 47.25% of the vote in Michigan.

Rounding the total, Trump won 47% and Romney won 45% (or if you want to get technical, Trump did just 2.67 points better). Even if you round that margin to 3, a three-point swing in Michigan is not significant. At least, it shouldn't have been significant enough to lose Hillary the state on its own.

Had Hillary carried the same overall percentage Obama did in 2012, minus the 2.6% improvement Trump saw in his totals, the final outcome is:

Hillary: 51.37
Trump: 47.25

Hillary wins the state by 4.12 points.

That's a fairly comfortable margin.

But Hillary didn't come anywhere near Obama's total in Michigan.

Hillary finished with 47.03% - or a difference of minus seven points compared to Obama in 2012.

There's the election right there. It's the same pattern in Wisconsin, Pennsylvania and even Florida.

States where Trump only marginally improved on Romney's totals or, in the case of Florida, actually saw an overall decrease and still won.

Why?

Because most those votes Hillary dropped that were there for Obama in 2012 went third party.

In Michigan, in 2012, only 1.38% of the vote went third party. In 2012, that number was 5.72‬%. 4.34% more than in 2012.

Almost the exact margin Hillary would have won Michigan had she retained the total percentage of votes that went to Obama in 2012 (corrected to include the increase from Trump over Romney).

She didn't lose Michigan because Trump surged in support. He didn't have that much stronger support than Romney in 2012.

She lost Michigan because a sizable amount of voters decided to vote third party.

It was the same scenario in Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

Hillary consistently struggled convincing a very small, but very important, group of voters to vote for her instead of third party.

Those voters backed Obama in 2012.

They didn't back her in 2016.

But here's one BIG caveat about Michigan:

Gary Johnson was on the ballot in 2016 for the Libertarian Party. He was not in 2012. The party didn't make the ballot.

In 2016, he won 3.57% of the vote. Well than the margin Trump beat Hillary in Michigan.

The Libertarian Party will be on the ballot in Michigan this year. But I suspect they won't have as well known of a candidate as four years ago (not suspect, I know).

 

Drunken Irishman

(34,857 posts)
3. It's hard.
Wed Jun 17, 2020, 11:15 PM
Jun 2020

In the month of October, Hillary only visited Michigan once. In retrospect, it probably would have been wiser to visit the state a few more times. She did finish the final week of the campaign with two visits there but October's absence hurt.

Still, you can't fault her campaign too much because it was playing to the states that felt more close to the tipping point than Michigan was.

In October, she visited Florida five times (including all-day visits in each of those trips). She visited Pennsylvania only two times. Ohio she visited four times. Virginia once. Nevada twice. Iowa once.

In retrospect, Hillary hung on too long in Ohio and Iowa. Those were states she wasn't going to win. But it's also hard to fault her from the perspective of the campaign, because, at least in Ohio, polls were favorable for her in October. The average margin in Ohio throughout October varied from a high of +3.4 for Trump (Oct. 2nd) to a high of +2.3 for Hillary (hit between Oct. 8th to the 11th). The state shifted, for good, on Oct. 18th, as Trump regained the average lead, but but, outside that +3.4 average lead at the start of October, he never led by any more than +2.5.

Ohio was an interesting state in 2016. Hillary was right there fighting for it all the way through to election day. On election day, Trump led by only an average of +2.2. Yet, he won by +8. Hillary hit Ohio twice in the final week and still lost.

Iowa was a bit more out of reach - but to be honest, it doesn't matter. She only hit up Iowa once in October.

It's hard for me to fault Hillary's travel schedule. Yes, she should have invested as much energy in MI as she was Ohio or PA. And yes, she took them for granted. But guess what? Every campaign is going to take a state or two for granted. That's just the risk you take when you're running a national campaign.

In the final weeks of the campaign, Hillary was trying to build as many pathways to 270 as possible. She obviously thought Florida and Ohio were viable options, and they were according to the polls. In reality, though, Hillary probably should have spent more time in Florida than Ohio because she was NOT gaining traction in Ohio.

She campaigned like hell in Florida and came within a point of winning it.

But again, that's the risk campaigns make. Certainly Obama took risks in 2012 that paid off.

Hillary's risks didn't. She missed a surge in Michigan.

But you know what? I think there's evidence to suggest Hillary wasn't gaining anything from campaigning in those states. Her numbers actually got worse the more she campaigned in Ohio. She campaigned four straight days in Pennsylvanian to end the campaign, including a final rally in Philly with the Obamas. Her numbers got worse.

I can't explain it beyond she just wasn't a popular candidate in that region of the country.

I think Biden is more popular in Michigan than Hillary was. But yes, he can't take it for granted. And he won't.

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