Statue's like "is this ...the Indian Ocean?"

[bigtree]

twitter.com/emilyctamkin/status/1279600198398992395

[doc03]

1. May I ask why? nt

[bigtree]

2. I didn't do it

...but I couldn't care less about its fate.

Americans have fetishized false histories. It's interesting to see the reckoning being played out on these relics and idols.

Did you get the joke, tho...?

[Flo Mingo]

11. I got the joke

I laughed out loud.

[Squinch]

4. Because Columbus and his men raped and killed and tortured and enslaved multitudes

of people wherever they landed, and that should not be glorified.

Other than that, no reason.

[doc03]

8. Back in that day don't you think anyone else would

have done the same? That was the culture in those times, they had slaves they burnt people acused of witchcraft. What is next knocking down all the monuments in Gettysburg? This only helps Trump, I think stuff like this got Trump elected in 2016.

[Squinch]

9. You want to continue to glorify Columbus? That's on you.

[Nature Man]

39. "What about African's that sold their own people into slavery?"

Classic Racist Dodge #473939

[doc03]

41. Are you saying it didnt happen?

[Nature Man]

57. I'm saying that I'm African-American

I'm old, and I've heard this shit my whole life.

It's on a par with:

1. "There's black people, then there's niggers, but then every race has niggers."
2. "I have plenty of black friends."

Do you need more examples?

Time is up for racists. The racist's day is over.

No one is buying that shit.

[ck4829]

10. What exactly is stopping people from mass-raping 9 year old children again then?

Christopher Columbus and his ilk weren't exactly a separate species. And if we have a culture that idolizes the behavior of him, then we may as well be on the road to having that normalized again.

[doc03]

13. People are not idolizing him for that. So I guess

we should take down any statue of any of our presidents prior to the civil war. I totally agree will getting rid of Lee and Jefferson Davis, they were traitors but everyone before 1865?

[Squinch]

20. What is it about 1865 that only after that year should atrocities be acknowledged?

In 2100, will it be OK to put up statues of Hitler? And that's not hyperbole.

Are you aware that Columbus did achieve genocide? And in the process, he was the perpetrator of horrifying atrocities, including trafficking children as young as nine as sex slaves and cutting off limbs from people he enslaved who weren't meeting their work quotas?

I recommend you read this whole thing:
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/columbus-sex-slaves/

But here's a telling excerpt. Castellanoes are Spanish money.

In the year 1500, Columbus wrote: “A hundred castellanoes are as easily obtained for a woman as for a farm, and it is very general and there are plenty of dealers who go about looking for girls; those from nine to ten are now in demand.”

And no, "back in the day" this was still wrong. One of the men with him was so guilt-ridden that he devoted the rest of his life to exposing Columbus's atrocities and trying to protect the natives.

Are you still OK with glorifying Columbus?

[doc03]

37. It doesn't matter what I think it is the people

that will back Trump with his culture war. It gives him all the ammo he needs.

[Humanist_Activist]

43. Those people are never going to vote for Biden, no point in trying to coddle them. n/t

[doc03]

56. I think you are wrong, there are former Democrats

and independents that could vote for Biden but not as long as we give him ammo.

[Nature Man]

58. What you are doing,

it is not working.

[Humanist_Activist]

60. If anyone is moved to either not vote or vote Trump over

Statues, they were never going to vote for Biden in the first place.

[Humanist_Activist]

42. You do realize that Columbus was fired from his position as governor of Hispaniola because of...

his brutality and incompetence?

Seriously, even his contemporaries thought he(and his brothers) were tyrants.

[Ferrets are Cool]

44. He commited genocide and was a child molester.

If you are ok with that just because it was done a long time ago, shame on you.

America should be ashamed that we have a fucking holiday in his HONOR.

Yes, ALL his statues should be toppled.

[PTWB]

65. Wtf is this nonsense?

Just because things were acceptable hundreds of years ago doesn’t mean we need to glorify them now! Columbus was an incompetent who did NOT “discover” America, was responsible for genocide, and by all accounts was a vile cretin deserving of only scorn and obscurity in history books.

[MrsCoffee]

67. No dude, just no.

[krispos42]

30. We can exempt people born into a system and being part of it

Washington and Jefferson didn't establish chattel slavery in the colonies, so their efforts for the USA are not overshadowed by their slave owning status.

Columbus started the bringing of Native American slaves to Europe. It didn't exist until he started it, and it started under his order on his very first trip.

Columbus started the treatment of the natives that included slaughter, torture, and forced labor. It didn't exist until he started it, and it started under his order on his very first trip.

And he was wrong. He died thinking he had found India. He died thinking that the Earth was a lot smaller than everybody else thought it was. And he never set foot on what world become the United States.

If he had been a peaceful emissary from Spain, then maybe. But he wasn't.

[PTWB]

31. Memorializing racist, psychopathic butchers isn't OK.

There’s a reason even the Republicans are pushing to replace Columbus Day with Juneteenth!

[jcgoldie]

36. Aside from mass genocide you mean??

Of all the statues glorifying racist and terrible historical figures, Christopher Columbus is a unique sort of historical villain. There can and should be a debate about judging historical figures by the ethical standards of their time versus today. People like Jefferson and Washington are problematic in some ways for owning slaves, for example, but arguments can obviously be made that their contributions to our democratic way of life were substantial and allowances should be made for the social norms of their historical period...

...Read the history of Columbus and no such allowances can be made. Columbus was a vile and evil character judged by the standards of any era.

[Nature Man]

46. Yup

there are no statues of Adolf Hitler in Germany.

[hlthe2b]

3. Somehow, I think a few other states will join Colorado in replacing Columbus Day

with Indigenous People Day and/or observance of another more deserving Italian individual (Mother Frances Cabrini)

[tishaLA]

108. We have Indigenous Peoples Day in California, too

and the world hasn't come to an end.

[struggle4progress]

5. The statue sits in the Little Italy neighborhood of Baltimore, near the harbor

He was an Italian, and several Italian-American organizations commissioned the statue and gave it to the city back in the 80s

It's difficult to imagine an act more likely to offend people who are still living, who spent their own money to have the statue carved from Italian marble, intending to celebrate their pride as an immigrant community

There are politicians in Baltimore who supported its removal: this manner of vandalism doesn't help such people forge forward at all

[doc03]

7. I agree it only helps Trump. nt

[bigtree]

16. why?

...did the Democratic party tear down the statue?

No, it was done by apparently unafilliated individuals. It's not something that anyone's campaigning for, and it's ridiculous to make anyone else account for the statue's removal who wasn't directly involved.

Trump will pick at anything and try and exploit it. If Americans are grown up enough, they'll recognize the con from the last round of scapegoats and distractions from his dangerous, treasonous, and otherwise abberant behavior.

One thing for sure, you won't get any less statues toppled with Trump in office.

[doc03]

35. I don't care who is doing it but that is what leads

in Fox News anything that pits people against Democrats.

It worked in 2016 and it may work again.

[bigtree]

45. again, Democrats aren't toppling statues

...it's a new generation, likely, looking for an honest representation of our nation and it's people.

That's not something we shouldn't in any way discourage. We can't account for every person who may knock a piece of stone off a pedestal, but we can damn sure stand up for Americans looking for full recognition and representation. If we fail to do that, we shouldn't expect any more commitment from those same to our party.

[doc03]

53. Who do you think is being blamed for it? When

Trump spoke the last couple days and he said left wing anachists, Nazis, Comunists they heard Democrats. This is what he ran on in 2016 and won.

[bigtree]

59. 'Trump spoke'

...end of conversation.

[rockfordfile]

101. I could careless what a traitor says

[Nature Man]

49. Thank you for your concern

[Ferrets are Cool]

52. It doesn't matter if it is "this" or something else...

they (faux snooze) spend ALL day finding stuff to degrade Democrats for. The only ones still watching that chit are die-hards who wouldn't vote for a Democratic politician if you held a gun to their heads.

[Nature Man]

79. Um

that is Fox News' modus operandi.

They just make shit up and lie.

Real people don't take that shit seriously.

[rockfordfile]

100. I could careless what a Nazi network says

[rockfordfile]

19. I don't agree with that

[Drahthaardogs]

15. Yes. It's a big deal to Italian Americans who were lynched

In this country, exploited, and had their culture stolen. Laws were passed to stop Italian immigration.

The youth today do not realize it, because Italians are now considered white.

[Squinch]

22. Then we need to pick another Italian figure to glorify. Italian Americans of good faith,

if they learn about Columbus's atrocities, cannot be OK with him as a person.

There are scores of great Italians. Columbus was not one of them.

[Drahthaardogs]

26. Meh

The Aztec penchants for human sacrifice was one reason for the Spanish brutality. Moctezuma sacrificed 80,000 during his coronation.

They were different times. Slavery and brutality were part of it.

[Squinch]

28. That is a truly disgusting, not to mention inaccurate, post.

[Drahthaardogs]

29. It most certainly IS accurate

Sorry https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice_in_Aztec_culture#Huitzilopochtli

[Squinch]

32. Sorry, no. It really isn't. And your logic is fucked up too. You are essentially saying that

because atrocities were committed against Italians, we must glorify a man who committed atrocities. Those atrocities include committing genocide while encouraging torture, mass rape and trafficking of young children and women.

Screw that.

And PS, the human sacrifice was not the reason the Spanish committed genocide on the Aztecs. They wanted gold and slaves. The end. They didn't give a shit about the human sacrifice.

And what excuse do they have for committing genocide on the island tribes? They didn't do human sacrifice.

It's an ignorant "whatabout" argument.

[Drahthaardogs]

33. Sorry reality just gobsmacked you

https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20150227-a-place-for-human-sacrifices

[Squinch]

34. Sorry, you really aren't telling me anything that I don't know a lot about. Our posts crossed

as I was editing my previous one, so I will repeat what you apparently did not read:

And PS, the human sacrifice was not the reason the Spanish committed genocide on the Aztecs. They wanted gold and slaves. The end. They didn't give a shit about the human sacrifice.

And what excuse do they have for committing genocide on the island tribes? They didn't do human sacrifice.

It's an ignorant "whatabout" argument.

[Drahthaardogs]

40. That's bullshit. They were also there to proselytize

Which is why Spanish priests went with them. They were shocked by the human sacrifice, and some of the reason they responded violently.

In addition, Aztecs captured AND sacrificed slaves. You claimed that was false.

I am all for taking down statues of the Confederacy. That was treason. I find taking down statues of Washington, Lincoln, and yes Columbus stupid. The world was much different. No one is celebrating them for their shortcomings, but their accomplishment. I am happy we have evolved, but I think a lot of this is an overreach

[Squinch]

47. Where did I claim it was false that the Aztecs sacrificed slaves? I never said that.

Sure they were there to proselytize. That's why they hunted down nine year old girls, raped them and sold them as sex toys. Because they were all bent on spreading Christianity.

When the Spanish cut off the hands and arms of their slaves who were not mining gold fast enough, it was because they wanted to spread the love of Christ.

When they killed off whole nations, it was because they were so devout.

If you really think the Spanish were there to proselytize, you are deluded. They let some priests come along for the ride, as long as they didn't get in the way, as lip service to the church.

Genocide, rape, child rape, and torture were their accomplishments. If you want to glorify that, it's on you.

[Drahthaardogs]

62. Yet....they did

Lol. Your arguments are ridiculous. First you say Aztecs did NOT sacrifice slaves, then you say expansion of the Church was NOT a goal of the expansion of New Spain.

Yet De La Casas was....wait for it.... A PRIEST! And then...A BISHOP!

I have no time for your Poly Anna Politics

[Squinch]

68. You keep saying I said the Aztecs didn't sacrifice slaves. You made that up. I never said that.

And really your grasp of history is bizarre.

Just FYI, De La Casas was NOT a priest when he first came with Columbus. When he first came, he was a lay person. But he was so appalled and horrified by the disgusting behavior of the Spaniards toward the natives that he BECAME a priest and spent the rest of his life trying to protect the natives to atone for the actions of his countrymen.

Really, you need to read up more on your history before you spout these things. What you have no time for is getting your facts right.

And again, do show where I said Aztecs didn't sacrifice slaves. You have said twice now that I said that, and you have used it as one of your arguments against my logic, and yet I NEVER said that or anything like it.

[Drahthaardogs]

72. You did say it

Just own it. It’s stupid. The whole argument is stupid. Really, the US Government had a policy of starving out the natives. “Control the food source” that is why the bison were slaughtered. Wounded Knee, Sandcreek, ...all of it


Yet, you sit here on stolen land enjoying the fruits of those endeavors drinking your Starbucks latte living with n suburbia...all on land stolen for YOUR behalf.

The whole fucking argument is stupid and hypocritical. Yet they single Columbus out as if he acted alone. You are fucking complicit as is your mother, father, grandparents, all of US.

So, clean up your own backyard before you point fingers

[Squinch]

74. Link to where I said it. Because I never did. I actually understand the history. I know

it happened so I never said it didn't.

And the fact that you can't copy the statement that you are saying I made means you know I never said it.

And because you can't actually defend your position in the argument we are having, you come up with a completely different one.

And yes. I live on stolen land. Just like you do.

But at least I have enough humanity that I would never respond to genocide and child rape by saying "Meh." And at least, knowing that a person committed child rape and genocide, I don't insist, though ineffectively, that we glorify that person.

[Drahthaardogs]

81. Did you celebrate the 4th yesterday?

If you did, you most certainly DID honor it!


Furthermore, my first statement was that slavery and human sacrifice were also practiced by the natives - times were very different; and you responded with it “being inaccurate ”. It is posted above.

[Squinch]

86. I said simply that your post was disgusting and inaccurate. Which it was.

Your statement "The Aztec penchants for human sacrifice was one reason for the Spanish brutality" was what I was referring to as inaccurate. Which it is. Total bullshit, actually.

I'm going to let you have the last word, but before we do that, let's recap. You said the genocide committed by Columbus was "meh." You argued that the reason we should honor an Italian man who committed genocide was because Italian people were discriminated against. You said the Spaniards committed genocide on the Aztecs because they didn't like the Aztec's penchant for human sacrifice. You argued that the genocidal Spanish conquerors were really there to spread Christianity. Then you said that, though the statue should stay, we should all be castigated because we live in America. Because what we did to the natives was awful (which admittedly it was) but it all somehow justified Columbus's genocide.

Then you told me my arguments were illogical.

It has been a very interesting discussion.

But I'll let you have that last word. I sense you need it. So have at it.

But I would recommend that you bone up on your history before your next discussion on this. I recommend "Indian Slavery in Colonial America." Edited by Alan Gallay. Very good resource. Or you could even, like, try Google.

[Drahthaardogs]

91. Meh.

Judging history from 500 years ago by today’s standards is a fool’s errand. We are all a productive of our times. Obama was originally against gay marriage, shall we remove his portrait from the Whitehouse?

And you never answered if you celebrated the 4th yesterday, because if you did, I find you to be a huge hypocrite.

I have studied the history a lot. My great great grandmother was .... from Guanajuato! She was a mestizo. A Spaniard- Criollo father and a native mother. In fact, I am directly related to Navarro himself:

I find the whole exercise stupid, a waste of time, and hypocritical.

[SiliconValley_Dem]

92. you are a terrible person

[Drahthaardogs]

94. But I'm not a hypocrite!

At least I have that

[bigtree]

95. but you claimed concern for 'Italian Americans who were lynched' in one post

...but are seemingly unmoved by the murder, enslavement and mistreatment of the native peoples of the Caribbean islands which Columbus and his crews conquered.

I'd call that 'hypocrisy,' at best.

[Drahthaardogs]

97. Nope. I'm not unmoved at all

I support reparations for blacks and native Americans, think the natives were brutalized and am all for taking down the statues of the Confederacy- sedition was treason. No reason to celebrate ANY of that - no good came from it.

I really think tearing down statues of people who achieved great things, but judging them by today’s standards is stupid. They were a product of their times.

I support Kapernick and respect his kneeling. The ideals of that flag were not offered to him. It doesn’t mean that the ideals were wrong, it means they were applied imperfectly. So, we work to ensure that they are applied universally.

[Ferrets are Cool]

54. Thank you for this post. Saved ME the time of typing it out.

[Squinch]

69. I think a lot of people don't actually know the facts about Columbus. They are truly horriffic.

To have them dismissed with "meh, everyone did it," is shocking. Not to mention wrong.

Thank you for the support.

[Ferrets are Cool]

76. Thom Hartmann educated me about 12 years ago

Before then, I didn't know anything but what I was taught in schools.
It's terrible how we (Americans) whitewash things in our school systems.

[Squinch]

78. I'm reading now about the Puritans and what they did to the natives.

I read these very dry history sources and find myself crying at the inhumanity.

[Drahthaardogs]

83. But you still live here

Still benefiting from these atrocities.

[bigtree]

85. my 'ancestors' were brought here against their will

...using much the same route Columbus sailed. He devastated Haiti and the Dominican Republic.



The quote attributed to Columbus in the meme is accurate and was taken from a letter he wrote in 1500 to Doña Juana de la Torre, a nurse in the royal court of Queen Isabella and the sister of one of Columbus’ leading crew members on his second voyage to the Americas.

At this time (just after his return from the third voyage) Columbus had been removed as Governor of the American territories after reports surfaced of horrific misgovernment and brutal treatment of natives, and he was even briefly imprisoned before he was pardoned by King Ferdinand of Aragon who — along with Isabella of Castile — was one of the “Catholic Monarchs” of modern-day Spain.

Sex slavery and forced labor were among the many brutalities that Columbus and his crews inflicted on the native Taíno people on the island of Hispaniola (now the site of Haiti and the Dominican Republic.)

One of Columbus’s crew members, Bartolemé de las Casas, became so disenchanted with the atrocities of the European conquerors that he turned on Columbus and his mission. Later, he became a Dominican friar, dedicating his life to exposing and opposing the brutalities perpetrated by Columbus and his men and attempting a more peaceful missionary colonization of the Caribbean islands.

In 1542, de las Casas wrote a famous book about that era, A Brief Account of the Destruction of the Indies (“Brevísima Relación de la Destrucción de las Indias.”) In it, he condemned the destruction caused by the Columbian voyages:

There are two main ways in which those who have travelled to this part of the world pretending to be Christians have uprooted these pitiful peoples and wiped them from the face of the earth. First, they have waged war on them: unjust, cruel, bloody and tyrannical war. Second, they have murdered anyone and everyone who has shown the slightest sign of resistance, or even of wishing to escape the torment to which they have subjected him.

This latter policy has been instrumental in suppressing the native leaders, and, indeed, given that the Spaniards normally spare only women and children, it has led to the annihilation of all adult males, whom they habitually subject to the harshest and most iniquitous and brutal slavery that man has ever devised for his fellow-men, treating them, in fact, worse than animals.

On his 1493 return to Europe from the first voyage, Columbus wrote a famous letter to Ferdinand and Isabella (who had sanctioned the expedition), recounting the timidity and naivité of the Taíno people, and offering his patrons “slaves as many as they shall order to be shipped,” in return for the ships and resources required for a second voyage...


read more: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/columbus-sex-slaves/#:~:text=Columbus%20Provided%20Native%20Sex%20Slaves%20to%20His%20Men.,men%20also%20raided%20villages%20for%20sex%20and%20sport

[Ferrets are Cool]

84. We are taught early on in schools (at least when you are my age) and with television

that Native Americans were "savages". That word was used A LOT. Nothing could be further from the truth.
It's a very long read, but worth every minute.


The Lost People
Thom Hartmann
Oct. 31, 1998 6:00 pm
By Thom Hartmann A...

As your wise Native American elders here have shared, you know your roots. You know the languages of your great-grandmothers, from before the White Europeans arrived and murdered your people and stole their lands. You know the customs of your people that go back a thousand years, five thousand years, some of you to the time of the original settlement of this area, just as the glaciers receded, nine thousand years ago, and perhaps even tens of thousands of years before that. The ways of your people have been passed down all that time.

https://www.thomhartmann.com/articles/1998/10/lost-people

[Squinch]

89. I'll definitely read this. Thank you.

[rockfordfile]

105. Columbus was evil

[Nature Man]

82. Doubling down?

dayum, you got some stones, bruh.

Quit while you're ahead?

[rockfordfile]

102. It doesn't matter about different times. Once a pos mass murder always

[Nature Man]

51. Southern Italians are still not considered "white" in some places

to this day.

[Squinch]

71. So they, more than anyone, should know that it is not OK to glorify a man who

subjugated, tortured, raped and enslaved people who he considered inferior to him, and ultimately committed genocide on them.

[bigtree]

17. Columbus wasn't an 'immigrant,' he was a colonizer

...and a brutal one, at that.

Anyone celebrating that history as an 'immigrant's' one won't find a bit of support from me.

Good riddance to bad art.

[struggle4progress]

23. I don't object to the statue being removed: I object to mobs of self-righteous nitwits

doing things like this without any respect for the possibilities offered by political dialog

Results are often continuous with methods

[coti]

87. This is a good point, independent of the merit of the statue. nt

[bigtree]

88. there are three Columbus statues in Baltimore

...the controversy over them isn't new, nor are the calls for their removal. There has been decades of opposition.

This is a result of political dithering. If it's a just a matter of dialog, consider the results.

[Drahthaardogs]

27. Yet you enjoy the fruits of his work.

Renounce everything you own, give it to local tribes and return to your ancestral home

[bigtree]

50. you first.

[Drahthaardogs]

66. I'm not complaining

My hypocrisy has an upper limit

[Nature Man]

73. Africa?

That's some racist ass shit you're spouting, sounds a lot like: "Go back where you came from."

[Drahthaardogs]

75. It's not racists

I am saying, it’s rather hypocritical to denounce Columbus while you park your ass on stolen land and enjoy everything that came from it

It is literally “Do as I say, not as I do”. If your convictions were so straight by, you would return the land under your house to the local track bed and then leave

That’s not racists, it’s saying don’t be a hypocrite

[Nature Man]

77. Columbus never set foot in what is now the United States

still, your post has a bad smell to it.

A lot of times, it isn't too difficult to figure out what people are up to.

[bigtree]

80. that's a generous reading

...apparently sees no right to protest or even disagree. I suggested they go first.

Renounce, divest, and (re)immigrate wherever they think my 'ancestors' come from because someone might disagree with my point of view. That's the offensive suggestion the poster is making.

Incidently, I was born in Brooklyn, NY.

[rockfordfile]

103. I agree

[nsd]

24. +1

[Polybius]

55. It's gonna piss off the Italian population

Hope it goes back up fully restored.

[bigtree]

64. you mean in Baltimore

...solidly Democratic Baltimore?

According to The Baltimore Sun, the statue was owned by the city and dedicated in 1984 by former Mayor William Donald Schaefer and President Ronald Reagan.

A spokesman for Baltimore Mayor Bernard C. “Jack” Young told The Sun the toppling of the statue is a part of a national and global reexamination over monuments “that may represent different things to different people.”

“We understand the dynamics that are playing out in Baltimore are part of a national narrative,” Lester Davis said.

https://time.com/5862949/christopher-columbus-statue-baltimore/

[Polybius]

98. Most of us Democrats are reasonable moderates

The vast majority don't support toppling Columbus. Those who condone these actions I want nothing to do with.

[rockfordfile]

104. I support taking them down and replacing with a true Italian American

[Polybius]

107. Not by toppling them

I'm fine with pressuring politicians to take them down.

[marie999]

6. Destroying a statue does not tell people what this person did.

Putting these statues in museums with a history of what these people did, does.

[bigtree]

14. too late for that

...it's not like it's a new controversy.

Shoulda, coulda, woulda.

[kentuck]

18. Anarchy

Democrats should clearly separate themselves from this type of lawlessness or they will live to regret it. Leaders should comment publicly and put the blame squarely where it belongs. Words have consequences and this is the result of 3 1/2 years of divisiveness and inflammatory rhetoric by Donald Trump. It is no surprise. Democrats should not sit back and take the blame for any of this.

[bigtree]

21. which Democrat?

...why allow anyone to 'blame' you for this?

Why allow anyone to blame our party?

One thing for certain, Kentuck, this is a growing movement outside of politics that may make some people uncomfortable, but represents, in many cases, real anger. How does a party really push back against a movement which is largely unaffiliated? Do they start lashing out at youth in general? Or can they just condemn stupid acts as they occur?

I don't believe we should fall into the trap of condemning things that republicans might criticize. They're so disreputable, it's hard to imagine anything they say or do that I feel any need at all to defend myself against.

Our party isn't toppling statues, and we shouldn't put ourselves in any position to account for these incidents.

[kentuck]

25. which Democrat?

Preferably an African-American leader would speak out.

Yes, it makes some people uncomfortable and the anger is real. So are the political consequences of fear in the electorate.

Democrats should put the blame squarely on the inflammatory rhetoric and racism of Donald Trump. His divisive words have their consequences and we see them.

Democrats do not accept lawlessness, regardless of the anger or the legitimacy of the anger. The President is supposed to lead this country, not divide it. He has failed miserably and we will not take the blame for the anarchy and lawlessness that he has sown.

[bigtree]

38. why an African-American?

...I've seen as many or more white youth at these removal events?

But to the point of having someone address this, I'd expect something other than scolding or scorn. What I'd expect is the basic acknowledgement that our nation has fallen short, and sometimes erred in our glorification of individuals who did not have the interests of all of the people of the nation at heart, or behaved in ways that we now recognize as an antithesis to an equitable and just society.

Address the sentiments and anguish behind the demonstrations against these historical controversies, instead of handwringing over broken stone. People need to feel that this country represents them, considers them a full citizen, respects their true histories and often tragic legacies of our nation's founding.

Our message should be as far removed from representing these growing sentiments in black communities and others as 'lawlessness' as we can position ourselves. Give people something more than a call for law and order. After all, that's what's been used to perpetuate these awful legacies of hate, discrimination, and the recriminations which result from all that. Jim Crow was one 'law and order' response to black uprising after Emancipation, a response to Reconstruction. We need more than cops on the beat protecting stone idols.

[kentuck]

48. Excellent points!

It would not have to be an African-American leader but I think it would give the issue added credibility.

Of course, "law and order" has been used to perpetuate Jim Crow laws through the years and the response should be a counter to that.

But, in my opinion, we cannot side with those that resort to lawlessness and anarchy, for purely political reasons, and we should publicly denounce those types of actions. I do not think it would do a lot of good to try and explain the reasons for such actions. I think it would be better to attack Donald Trump and the Republicans for creating the conditions that have brought on these latest episodes of violence.

[Nature Man]

61. One person's "lawlessness"

is another person's "redress of grievances."

[dalton99a]

70. +1. We have no business worshiping some genocidal maniac who never set foot in America

The guy never even saw the North American continent

[Humanist_Activist]

63. This is not the result of Trump but a long time coming. Trump is a symptom not the disease. N/T

[malaise]

90. Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

The joke is brilliant

[bigtree]

93. oh my god

...I thought just me and the other poster were the only ones who got it!


These history buffs all concerned with statues should know Columbus never set foot in North America.

[malaise]

96. There was a DUer who spent copious time

attacking me re Columbus. He would dig up all my posts on the subject and respond.

[Solly Mack]

99. That's hilarious

[betsuni]

106. Good one, Emily!