Do Democrats have the chops to do what should have been done to Bush and Cheney?

[Stinky The Clown]

America has always allowed its former presidents to get on with their lives.

Its tradition. Its custom. Its what we do.

Bushco lied us into a war that in many ways continues even today.

And we did nothing. Indeed, letting Bushco go is the only thing Nancy Pelosi ever did that I think was a huge mistake.

So what happens when Trump leaves office?

Will we say the pandemic and recession are much bigger issues and let him skate?

Will we go after him and treat it as Bread and Circuses as we try to get things back under control?

It is my view that we need to go seriously after him. That kind of criminality - and it is criminality, NOT politics - cannot go unpunished or it will certainly happen again.

[Champion Jack]

1. I hope so, but, I have my doubts

based on past performance...

[Blue_true]

23. The problem is Bush and Cheney were not directly pinned to acts that

got aides convicted. Second, because Trump’s actions are so aberrant, no laws have been passed making them explicitly illegal (they are violations of what the Constitution says, but there are no federal laws that he can be convicted on). May have to settle for NY State convicting him of acts done while he lived there.

[Hoyt]

2. Get wanting to bury the MFer; but, don't think it will be good for country

to do so. If states want to, fine. Although, don’t think Feds or states will ever find a jury without one or two trumpsters to force a hung jury.

[rampartc]

4. that is the practical matter - a trump fan on the jury,.

[Demsrule86]

6. You and I are on the same page. And Trump will pardon all his crimes.

[malaise]

3. Go back further

Bush stole the 2000 elections - Al Gore let it pass - that's how we got here

[BComplex]

14. Boom! You nailed that one, Malaise! Gore should have fought like a bear cat for his country

but he just let it slide, like a good little democrat. I'll never get over him and John Kerry both doing that. Karl Rove was hacking the central tabulators on the bush/Kerry election.

[malaise]

51. I've seen it elsewhere

They let it slide in the same of democracy without seeing the bigger picture - the assault on democracy. And then the computer guy, Michael Connell, died in that strange plane crash.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/republican-it-guru-dies-in-plane-crash/

And now Rove is back.

Sadly for these criminals, there will be over 200,000 dead Americans buy election day. The people will send them packing no matter what they try.

[BComplex]

56. Here's how they were cheating back then: A quote from the article you posted

"Connell's central role in building the IT infrastructure of the White House and his association with Karl Rove has brought him into the controversy surrounding missing White House e-mails relating to the firing of U.S. Attorneys and other topics, and the fate of e-mail communications sent by Rove and other administration staffers which were sent via a Republican Party Web site, gwb43.com, rather than through a whitehouse.gov address.

Connell built the gwb43.com site, which shares mail servers with GovTech.

Connell's Internet expertise also led him to be subpoenaed earlier this year to testify in an Ohio federal court regarding alleged voter fraud in the 2004 election. Despite exit polls showing a lead by Democratic nominee John Kerry of more than 4 percent, Mr. Bush won the state's vote by 2.5 percent, along with its crucial electoral votes.

Much has been written about problems at the polls in Ohio that year, where voters in many (predominantly Democratic) precincts were forced to wait hours because of a shortage of working voting machines. A lawsuit being pursued by attorney Clifford Arneback seeks to answer questions about this and other ballot problems. [For example, in Franklin County Mr. Bush received 4,258 votes in a precinct where only 638 voters cast ballots.] "

At the time, Democratic Underground was all over these issues with the precincts that had more votes than voters, and dramatically switched total as opposed to pre-election polls and exit polls.

Republicans have been cheating ever since we've had computers. This needs to be a national conversation.

[Mr. Evil]

47. That's when IOKIYAR got its bones.

[malaise]

52. Indeed n/t

[Demsrule86]

5. Within reason...but let the states handle it...we have two years to send massive help to

Americans...that is our job. If we fail we will lose the midterm.

[Fiendish Thingy]

17. America must walk and chew gum in order to restore the Constitution and Rule Of Law

Renew the Independent Counsel laws, give the IC free reign, so Congress and Biden can deal with healthcare and the economy, etc.

I nominate Preet Bahara for IC.

[BigmanPigman]

7. I have read that he likely won't ever go to jail for his crimes

whether before he was POTUS or during his time in office. He will likely only receive fines. Since HE is the one who throws norms out of the window right and left, why don't we throw this norm out with him. Give him what he loves...saying tough shit to norms and nothing applies to him. Good, let's follow through with this behavior and toss him in jail as we toss that norm out the window too.

[Ferrets are Cool]

8. Hell no

I will believe it when it happens. Not a second before.

[CrispyQ]

9. Teflon Don will skate.

Everyone will find it too distasteful to go after an ex-president. We are partly here because our side* never challenges the other side. We let hate radio denigrate us for decades without a peep of protest. We let the right claim the narrative on every issue without offering an opposing view. We conceded 2000 & 2004. We let war criminals walk. When we had the legislative majority we reached out to the other side and they snubbed us, but we continued to reach out. Yeah, I'm betting he'll skate.

* When I say our side, I mean mostly the old guard dems, who I don't think have fully come to terms with exactly how anti-American the GOP has become. That said, I have hope that the younger dems see the repubs for what they really are, enemies of representative government.

[BComplex]

16. I recommend this post!

Yes!

[CaptainTruth]

10. Letting Bush/Cheney & the PNAC cabal get away scot-free was a HUGE mistake.

To me it set the dangerous precedent that a president can get away with anything, even war crimes.

And now we have Donald Trump.

[Mr. Evil]

48. The PNAC...

That's the tack stuck in every decent human being's shoe.

[Thunderbeast]

11. REAGAN'S Iran-Contra criminals were also exonerated

...by Bill Barr....yes THAT Bill Barr.

Knowing that John Yoo (torture is OK SWELL!) is back also gives me little hope that anything is ever learned.

[Fiendish Thingy]

12. Nuremberg trials for Trump & Co, or the US is finished. Nt

[Hortensis]

13. Chops means POWER and support from The People.

A big lesson to be learned from this era is that it takes a lot more intelligence and careful, principled and very clever actions to protect 250 years of standards from vandals let loose in the halls of power than it does to smash them.

Also that those who have what that takes aren't nearly as rare in government as people lead to believe that toxic, lie-based cynicism is wisdom think.

[jalan48]

15. If we don't we won't get the same chance the next time around.

[spanone]

18. If not with this guy, never. What comes after trump?

that's fucking scary

It will happen again times ten.

[Mr. Evil]

49. That's the problem.

If we let President Nazivomit skate simply because he's a 'former president' then the next republican Nazi lizard piece of shit will be even worse by an order of magnitude.

Should Joe win he should nominate Adam Schiff as AG and give him free reign to pursue any and all corruption that has permeated our government. I sent him a letter stating such. Anything short of prosecuting these criminals is tacit approval of their un-American actions.

Fuck republicans. They are traitors beyond the pale to Russia. Burn them at the stake!

[0rganism]

19. oh what a nice problem that would be

"when Trump leaves office" - I'm still working on regaining that fleeting sense of optimism from last month

[Blue_true]

20. I am going to be an outlier here.

Nothing that Bush and Cheney did was explicitly illegal. Some of their aides did illegal stuff, but neither was pinned conclusively to those acts.

Trump appears to have been doing criminal stuff on an ongoing basis, BUT, those things were trimming the Constitution’s requirements. The problem is that no laws have been passed making those actions criminal, because no President, including Jackson and Harding have acted as criminal as Trump.

[NurseJackie]

26. Thank you for your voice of reason.

[SamKnause]

21. No.

This is a lawless country.

When the leaders of the country are above the law there is no law.

When there are 2 sets of law, 1 for politicians and 1 for the rest of us, there is no law.

When a Supreme Court can declare that corporations are people, there is no law.

When politicians are not forbidden from insider trading, there is no law.

When corporations pay no taxes, there is no law.

When a country has the largest prison population on the planet, there is no law.

When politicians can warmonger over the entire globe with zero consequences, there is no law.

When politicians are guaranteed pensions and workers are not, there is no law.

When police can murder citizens without consequences, there is no law.

When health care is not considered a human right, there is no law.

When politicians can outlaw a harmless plant, there is no law.

With Liberty And Justice For All, has always been a lie.


This country has never been what it has been advertised to be !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The citizens of this country have zero control over anything.

[not fooled]

41. ++++++++++++++++++++++++

Can't agree more. Unfortunately.

[mitch96]

22. I hope Cy Vance hangs his ass the day after he leaves the white house...

No pardon, no "empathy" just the facts and like the crime lord he is.... hang his ass...
m

[theaocp]

24. It doesn't really matter.

Their donors will decide. My guess is the donors will say move on.

[JI7]

25. White People would never have supported going after Bush that way

And it wasn't just Pelosi. No democratic member in Congress supported it and neither did Bernie Sanders.

White people would never have accepted it. White people just need to stop supporting shitty people like gym jordan gohmert Trump desantis kristi noem.

We have this mess becsuse majority of white people could not accept the passage of civil rights .

We are getting some changes for better like in Califirnia but that's becsuse of a change in demographics with more Latinos and white people leaving.

We have to wait for the same thing nationally.

[NurseJackie]

27. Good lord. Stop.

[Hekate]

28. Will we have the Senate?

Will Democrats gave the backs of the Prez and others trying to rebuild a federal government in rubble? Or continuously rip them from the left?

No idea.

[not_the_one]

29. We either do what needs to be done

or we will be relegated to history, as a party. And although they will also be down and out, the REPUBLICANS will come back, stronger than ever.

We have already let it slide too long. (We really threw in the towel on Gore v Bush. Pure, blatant cowardice.) "For the good of the country." And we see where THAT got us. As far as I am concerned, THAT is over and done with.

Many of us out here have been voting, as we see it, for the lesser evil for decades, because that was the only choice we had. As that was happening, the party has continually disappointed. There would be an occasional bright spot that we would immediately, in our celebration of independent thinking, squander. We had the presidency and both houses of Congress. What do we do? We fought amongst ourselves and lost it. We lost sight of our purpose, and lost a lot of our supporters because we couldn't take a stand. We are supposed to be the party of labor, yet the union member's votes have been skewing more and more republican for years.

As a party we can either shit or get off the pot.

The democratic party will be replaced, if it can't do its job. More of the same is unacceptable.

There IS no "for the good of the country" if these travesties aren't addressed. If Joe doesn't do what he said he would do (NOT let accountability slide), this is my last election. There are a lot of us old farts who are tired. We KNOW the definition of insanity because we have seen it happen again and again. We'll let the youngun's deal with it. Of course it could be too late by then, but Say La Vee...

Or as the turd would say, "It is what it is".

[Lock him up.]

30. R.I.C.O.

Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act

A mandatory task for the Biden administration (if we get there).

[Phoenix61]

31. This. We need to stomp him and his cronies

into the ground. It seems there are a lot of republicans who want to excise trumpism from the party. If we want young people to believe in the Dem party I think we have to go after Twitler. I don’t know if it will accomplish much but it’s imperative we make the effort.

[usaf-vet]

34. RICO all the grifters a$$es. Make them poor. Like they have done to millions of Americans

[Lock him up.]

35. Yes. Hammer them with the last part: the Corrupt Organizations Act.

[stopdiggin]

32. tricky. depends on what actions are being targeted for scrutiny

I'm still in the camp that thinks charging former officials for policy decisions (i.e. politics) -- is a bit tin pot, and probably ought to be generally avoided. On the other hand bribery, corruption, financial crimes -- there's still a lot of things that are still on the table. (And have great and ample precedent!)

Also like to make a point that a lot of Trumps circle of sycophants do not enjoy the same umbrella of immunities that the president does -- and come Jan 21 he no longer has the power of pardon. Seeing some round number of cronies (50-60, 100?) heading to prison on corruption charges over the following year or two would not be such a great disappointment -- and might also serve to drive home the point for posterity.

[Bettie]

33. No. They don't

I wish I believed they would enforce some consequences, the most likely thing is that they'll drop it in the name of "moving forward" and "civility" and the next guy will be worse. Much worse, which is beyond imagining at this point.

[not fooled]

42. See: Tom Cotton

plausible nominee for the pukes in 2024. Garners a lot of big money support. A fascist with brains, which makes him potentially much more dangerous than the self-absorbed, incompetent asshole currently in the WH.

[beachbumbob]

36. obama set the wrong tone in NOT allowing investigations of war crimes

of GWB, cheney and Rumsfeld. A serious mistake and will forever tarnish his 8 years in my book. Allowing evil acts to go unpunished is evil

[Scruffy1]

37. It will never happen.

It seems to be an unwritten rule that once you leave DC you are left alone. In reality, the congress and president are not prosecuters. I think that the impotus is going to be teats up financially after putting all of the laundered money into failing golf courses. I think some ambitious prosecutor somehere might nail him for tax evasion or fraud. As much as I'd love to see the whole bunch in orange jumpsuits I've lived in this country too long to think that we have any justice system. In my life I can only think of a few politicians who ended up in prison. Besides, he is what he is- a POS. The real problem is the people who voted for him.

[NNadir]

38. He, and his enablers, including his stupid spawn, and in particular Barr, need to die in prison.

[PuppyBismark]

39. tRump will pardon his family and friends and resign, Pence will then pardon him.

After doing as much damage as a lame duck as he can, then the pardons will begin.

No question about it. tRump is afraid to go to jail and will make sure his whole family and all his henchmen are pardoned including Pence, who will then pay tRump for the pardon with one for him. It will be the last f**k you to the country.

[mitch96]

55. "then the pardons will begin. "

NOT in NY state.. Cy Vance can hang his ass and no pardons there... States can prosecute private citizens..
m

[Wednesdays]

57. Plus, pardons won't shield anyone from civil lawsuits

And there are many of those coming down the pike.

[DIVINEprividence]

40. Harvey Weinstein time for Trump

Trump will get crazier and crazier. He knows if he loses they will give him Jeff Epstein’s old cell

[Ms. Toad]

43. We don't have the bandwidth to fix to do that and fix what they broke.

Fixing what they broke is much more critical. We may only have 2 years to do it - given that even if we take both the house and senate we may not retain them at the midterm election.

There are others with time and energy to go after him, but at the federal level it is far more critical that we fix health care, address climate change, work on racial justice, etc.

[DanieRains]

44. Laws Only Apply To The Poor

The rich pay fines with other peoples money.

Thats why the planet is crumbling, and burning, while the ice melts.

[GulfCoast66]

45. Not going to comment on Trump. But Bush Cheney. I've read these threads forever.

But have never heard what actual laws they broke or Could be convicted on. Yeah, the whole Iraq thing was total BS.

But never forget Congress gave them tremendous and extremely open ended power to take military action. Even if the things they did are morally repugnant, when Congress gives the president undefined power to take action then I can’t see the grounds a prosecution can be made on.

Please don’t see this as defending the indefensible. But the president is very powerful because Congress made the office that way.

Which is what I hope Biden can lead us to. Assuming he is elected.

We need for Congress to strip away every bit of Cold War power Congress gave the office.

A perfect example is all these EOs. The only reason they are happening is because Congress gave the president that power. They need to take them all away.

I’ve never committed on this issue before because it is too fraught with anger. But I drank some bourbon tonight and there you are.

[dchill]

46. You're right, criminality cannot go unpunished.

Hope it's not too late.

[TryLogic]

50. Absolutely agree !!!

[Vinca]

53. The one and only question I want Biden to answer is - "Will you pardon?"

Trump makes Richard Nixon look like a decent guy. No Jerry Ford this time around.

[DFW]

54. Don't look for precedent in the post-Cheney days, but rather the post-Nixon days

Many Nixon administration members went to jail, including his Attorney General. Nixon's gang were amateurs compared to Trump's gang of gangsters. The crimes committed by members of the Trump administration make the Nixon gang look like kids stealing candy bars from a 7-11 by comparison. The country would be ill-served if the next administration were to turn a blind eye to their offenses.

[Hotler]

58. Us citizens need to let the Democrats know that we expect full investigations and prosecutions.

"Now is not the time to point fingers." will not cut it this time.