If there is no order in the streets, there is no freedom or democracy.

[kentuck]

Last edited Mon Aug 10, 2020, 11:43 AM - Edit history (1)

We cannot operate as a society with violence in the streets.

Whatever grievances or injustices we are seeing, or have experienced, must be resolved in a different way.

We cannot bury our heads in the sand or make excuses.

The choice is ours.

[Freethinker65]

2. What exactly do you mean by "order"?

[kentuck]

4. I mean the opposite of "disorder".

But, I think you knew that.

[Freethinker65]

9. Honestly, I do not

If you mean you are against criminal behavior like looting, I think we agree.

If you are against protesting against what it wrong, we disagree.

I think John Lewis was correct in advising "Good Trouble" is often necessary for change.

[kentuck]

11. We should be careful to correctly define what John Lewis meant by "good trouble".

Yes, we must continue to protest. But we should not become criminals.

[Freethinker65]

12. Then we agree.

[sl8]

18. Would you say that to those that became criminals by helping runaway slaves?

How about those that became criminals by hiding Jews from the NAZIs?

Or, those that became criminals by riding in the wrong section of a segregated bus?

[kentuck]

19. I would say you are riding a different horse at a different time.

Nothing you see today compares to those times, whatever injustices and crimes we now see. We have not struggled for so many centuries to see it all brought down over such distortions of reality.

If we follow that solution, we may as well surrender to Donald Trump and the Fascists. There is not a whole lot of difference. There is no elegant way to say it.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

28. Depending on what is being criminalized

Violence, looting, property destruction are not fine by me.

Being out in the streets peacefully protesting is fine. Trump and Barr seem to be trying to conflate the two with their extreme actions with Border Patrol personnel.

[Laelth]

3. Or, to look at it from another perspective ...

“There can be no peace without justice.” - Martin Luther King, Jr.

-Laelth

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

[kentuck]

7. And there should be no hiding behind the cloak of justice.

With violence and destruction of property.

There is no good end.

People must feel safe to walk down the streets. All people.

[OneGrassRoot]

24. Indeed, all people should feel safe...

and until everyone does, no one should feel safe. If the same groups of people who have advantages in our society continue to feel safe, then they quickly divert their attention and nothing will change. A lot could change more quickly to be more equitable and just if more people demanded it, including the people not currently suffering from injustice and inequity.

[kentuck]

26. I'm not sure I agree with that philosophy...

I think there must be another solution?

[OneGrassRoot]

29. I wish there were...

I don’t want anyone to suffer in any way. But if this pandemic has taught us nothing else, it has certainly revealed how selfish a large percentage of people are and our staggering empathy deficit. Unfortunately, too many people don’t care until they’re directly impacted. I understand riots and looting may seem counterproductive to a cause, but if that’s the only way for desperate people to be seen/heard, I get it. I’m also starting to wonder if we may see this increase as more and more people become truly desperate due to hunger and other basic necessities becoming scarce or unaffordable. 😢

[kentuck]

31. Is it the hungry and desperate that are rioting?

I'm not sure?

[OneGrassRoot]

32. I think...

there are several things going on.

It has been reported by both police and FBI that the looting, fires and such in the first week of the George Floyd protests were done primarily by white supremacists and right-wing agitators. As the protests continued, especially in cities where they were met with militarized police tactics, I think some protesters have escalated their tactics. I absolutely believe desperation is warranted when people are simply pleading with authorities to quit killing them and they’re met with brutality.

As this pandemic and economic situation deteriorates, we can probably expect more unrest. I wonder if there may be an element of that in the protests now. Under-resourced areas feel the brunt first - beyond the impact of COVID itself.

[kentuck]

34. It's very sad.

They have the guns and power and the brutality will only get worse with the leadership we are now attempting to endure.

[greenjar_01]

5. When folks say "No justice, no peace," what do some of you think is meant?

Like, do you get the "no peace" part?

[Demsrule86]

6. What do you expect? People are now homeless and hungry.

The depression almost ended our Republic...chaos breeds revolution.

[kentuck]

10. You are right about that.

Should we try to minimize the suffering or just watch it happen. No one will be exempt from the pain and suffering and it will be nothing like we are now experiencing.

[Demsrule86]

21. It is inevitable if the people receive no help.

And I can't blame them either. We have millions of hungry kids now. And the poor in cities were already on the ropes.

[Demsrule86]

22. And plenty are exempt...rich people...people who can enjoy the area that are now seeing rioting.

Sorry...without help...there will be unrest and eventually revolution.

[Newest Reality]

8. Is there going to be peace...

Is there going to be peace, freedom or democracy if millions of people are broke, hungry, homeless and have lost everything they have? How so?

I would wonder any of them will angry or just totally passive and say, "Oh well!" and then wander back to their cars or tents while those with children will be very concerned about feeding them since there is going to be little or no help available.

I wonder if they will be noticing how well the stock market is doing and how obscenely wealthy the wealthy are becoming in the midst of the crisis that tossed them out of everything meaningful and valuable to them while making them pariahs in a sense; being homeless can be like being the caste of untouchables. You are avoided and frowned upon by those who are fortunate.

What is going to be their choice in that matter? Will they have the energy or resources to protest for something that will never come and waste their daily survival needs time and risk being beaten, gassed and jailed in a futile attempt to address their grievances?

What would anyone do when the idea that you may never be fully employed, properly housed and even have hungry children staring you in the face? Turn the other cheek and accept your fate?

I don't advocate for violence at all, but it seems to me this human catastrophe will certainly boil over and I guess there will be plenty of moral judgements about the negative results that will impact our society, that is, for those who have. The have nots will be in the place called, nothing left to lose.

[kentuck]

13. Donald J Trump

The Father of the Revolution?

[MineralMan]

14. Lawn Order. That's what we need. Lawn Order.

Sincerely yours,

Mrs. Gladys Kravitz.

[ret5hd]

15. Then the cops need to stop sowing disorder.

What is more disorderly: murder under color of law or vandalism?

[janterry]

16. I think the problems are restricted to some communities and not others

I don't know why.

Some places have stepped up and have worked on developing constructive plans for change. other communities have remained stuck in endless protest (and sometimes worse).

(And still others have not done a damn thing, but I digress).

[kacekwl]

17. I don't know what the poster means by order but

in my opinion another chance to effect change whether it be the BLM movement, gun violence, injustice of all kinds has again been squandered away not by protesters but those who don't really care about the issues but use them to commit crimes to loot to incite violence and destruction. I don't know who they are, Trump stooges stirring up shit, assholes with nothing better to do, anarchists who want to destroy the country I don't know who but they're all accomplishing the same goal. If you want to protest go 1st to Washington and PEACEFULLY protest the congress to immediately remove trump and the stench of his administration. Demand they revisit impeachment now. Then present your grievances regarding whatever else you want changed. Until trump is gone Nothing else will happen and untill the serious people present their demands the goons and the fuck-ups will continue to suck the life out of real change.

[marybourg]

20. And what way would that be, to resolve

“whatever grievances and injustices we’re seeing”? Only discuss those which haven’t been tried before.

[SoonerPride]

23. What is this bullshit?

Fighting fascism means to fight.

Not just write angry letters to the editor.

[DFW]

25. True enough--smash enough windows, and the forces of reaction will have their perfect excuse

"the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress"

Giving the reactionary right an excuse to cage us up is not a wise tactic, because they can and will cage us up if they think they can sell their reason for it. We need to make our voices known and heard, not our rocks felt. That is their way.

[kentuck]

27. Unfortunately, you are correct.

That is the reality.

Anger and violence is not the answer.

[Baked Potato]

30. Trump could not be happier with the violence.

Trump needs people with nothing to lose to hit the streets. They will be the ones that will do the most damage and will be damaged the most from Trump.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

33. If there is garbage water in public plumbing and schools are full of mold, there is no freedom

or democracy.

We cannot operate as a society when streets are planned and bulldozed through thriving communities.

Whatever system has brought us to this existence, it must be dismantled.

We cannot bury our heads in the sand or make excuses. The choice is ours.

[kentuck]

35. You are correct.

The choice is ours.

[ananda]

36. No there isn't. And that's because there is no rule of law...

... that would prosecute and jail criminals like Trump, Barr,
and just about every Republican in Russia's pocket.