Here's why Trump should not be federally prosecuted

[Cyrano]

The crimes that Trump has publicly committed would be enough to send anyone to prison for life. Here are two examples from the least to the worst: (1) Daily breaking the emoluments clause of the constitution for his personal profit; (2) What can only be called murder, -- almost 160,000 Americans have died from Covid 19 due to Trump's indifference. incompetence, and doing absolutely nothing but cast blame elsewhere. (No, he didn't shoot anyone on 5th Ave. But countless are dead because of him.)

In short, Trump is a world class criminal who is out to serve himself, and he doesn't give a flying fuck who eats and who starves, who gets medical care and who doesn't, who can stay in their homes or become homeless, or who lives or dies.

So why, if Biden/Harris win, shouldn't the Justice Dept. prosecute him for every law he's (supposedly) broken during (and before) his "presidency?"

Because that would criminalize politics, even though we know that many presidents are guilty of criminal activities. (See Cheney/Bush/phony war/torture.) Imagine what would happen the next time the Republicans control the presidency and the entire congress. (Hopefully, that will never again happen.) They would impeach a president for cutting a fart, they would find him guilty, and then do the same thing to the veep, which would elevate the next in line, their Republican speaker of the house, to the presidency. (In other words, they would do what they have been doing for decades. Steal the presidency.)

Does that mean Trump should be let off the hook? No way. He is under investigation in New York for (as far as we know) tax fraud, money laundering, and perhaps countless other "white collar' crimes. And perhaps even far worse.

Let him be answerable for state crimes which no president can pardon or alleviate.

Republicans can scream all they want about New York prosecutions being a "kangaroo court," but they won't be able to lay it on the new president.

Therefore, if an ex-president is treated as a criminal, it won't be the federal government that did it. If Republicans want to break that tradition the next time they're in power, they'd better make sure that they never again lose power.

Okay, I've made my case of why Trump should not be federally prosecuted. Do you have a different opinion? Let's hear it.

[Gothmog]

1. Trump will pardon himself and family or resign and have Pence pardon him

State crimes aren’t not subject to trump pardon powers. I can see New York prosecuting trump after he leaves office

[totodeinhere]

11. Do you have a crystal ball? Myself, I am not so sure that he will try that.

I am guessing that his advisors are telling him that there is no way that a former president will ever go to jail. If the Biden Justice department does decide to go after him, and that is a mighty big "if," something like that could take years to wind itself through the judicial system. Trump would have plenty of resources and support from conservative circles to fight any attempted prosecution and use any legal means to delay and drag out the legal process. And he would have all of those right wing ideologues that he has appointed to the federal bench there to help him. Remember that he is a 74 year old man in poor health. I think there is a good chance that he wouldn't even live long enough to ever see himself go to jail.

[Gothmog]

16. I really doubt that trump is listening to anyone

trump is paranoid child and will go whatever he can to protect himself One reason why trump has not dumped Pence and replace pence with Haley is the fact that trump knows that he will need Pence for a pardon

If we get into an election contest, I can see Vance and James cutting a deal with trump with respect to the NY state charge. trump drops his election contest and New York will only fine trump and not put trump in prison

[empedocles]

17. trump talks to putin regularly - and I suspect he listens, and does what he is told

[putin might be the only person traitortrump really listens to]

[totodeinhere]

19. No, Trump does listen sometimes. For example, he has listened to the Federalist Society when making

his nominations to the federal bench. His two Supreme Court nominations and most of his nominations to the lower courts have come from a list submitted by the Federalist Society. He has listened to them. He has also listened to Jared Kushner. He did not want Israel to back off from their plans to annex parts of the West Bank in order to make a deal with the UAE. But Kushner advised him that it was necessary to make that deal and it would help him politically, so he listened. On many occasions he has not listened but sometimes he does.

[Cyrano]

25. He listens to things that don't affect him personally

When it comes to his own "greatness," "infallibility," "brilliance," and "perfection," he listens to no one. His own "godliness" can never be questioned in his own mind.

Why doesn't everyone in the world understand the reality that this man is insane by anyone's definition of the word?

[totodeinhere]

30. Oh yes, he is insane. But from a historical sense that is not so unusual.

Many dictators and tyrants were insane but in a perverse sort of way they were also successful. Hitler was insane but nevertheless he manged to conquer most of Europe.

[indigoth]

2. Because

This opens the door for more trump-like law breaking behavior with no repercussions. The rule of law is the rule of law. Even for presidents.

Prosecute all law breakers. Even presidents.

[Demsrule86]

3. No it doesn't. We need to change the laws so they have teeth in them...

and we have real oversight...but we can't have the former administration being prosecuted everytime a new administration wins election.

[KPN]

15. You are conflating this administration with any

administration. This is administration is not by any stretch typical or normal; it is abnormal, atypical and in no way common with any other administration as far as the depth and breadth of its corruption, criminality and overall malfeasance. Atypical, uncommon problems can only be fixed with uncommon solutions. We need an uncommon solution -- otherwise we will suffer exactly what you suggest/fear. The reality is the GOP is already where you suggest they will be if we pursue accountability for crimes committed by this President at the federal level.

[Cirque du So-What]

4. If there's a federal case to be made, go for it

Make his lawyers fight on more than one front. As for presidential pardons, I pity the fool who does it.

[dlk]

5. When there is no accountability for criminals they see a green light and only increase their crimes

It also gives a green light to other criminals, If we truly believe in the rule of law, then no one, not even the president, should receive a pass. Otherwise, we fall prey to hypocrisy and ever increasing crime from our leaders, and we are no longer a democratic republic. We are currently experiencing dictatorship creep from our unwillingness to hold rich and powerful men accountable. Make no mistake, we are at a crossroads and and close to a point of no turning back.

[Cyrano]

10. I'm not saying he shouldn't be held accountable

I'm only stating the best way to do it. We live in a world in which justice rarely comes about for the rich and powerful because of fears of repercussions. If he's held accountable at the federal level, "revenge" will be in play the next time the Thugs hold power.

However, holding him responsible at the state level would put the onus on the Thugs to raise it to the federal level. And if they do so the next time they're in power, you can almost bet on Civil War II. I guess all that means is that we didn't start it (which would be all but meaningless, given where we'll be).

[dlk]

31. Understood, you'd like to avoid more Republican-style, witch hunts like Benghazi or email lawsuits

The truth is, Republicans and their ilk will likely continue to abuse the system, whether or not we pursue federal criminal charges against Trump, or not. Leopards don’t generally change their spots and Republicans wrote the book on petty and vindictive. However, I believe it’s critical to make the effort to pursue criminal charges and hold Trump accountable. Otherwise, if nothing changes, nothing changes. In my view, we’ve reached a tipping point to change from the past and we may actually be able to hold rich, connected men accountable. At the very least, it’s worth the effort.

[Cyrano]

34. Couldn't agree more

Leopards/stripes, etc. Republicans will continue to be the horrible beings they have proven themselves to be, regardless of what we do. Perhaps we should go after them at the federal level and every way we possibly can, everywhere, at every level. After all, they have proved they are more than willing to destroy democracy. Perhaps, the very idea of the Republican Party should be destroyed in order to save democracy.

This issue is worthy of it's own thread.

[dlk]

38. Republicans don't believe in democracy and they have done serious damage to our country.

They are the party that inflicted our country with Trump because he represents their truest beliefs. There is limited research that indicates their brains are wired differently. Regardless, to ensure the future of our country, the Republican Party should be dismantled and demolished. As we are seeing, we cannot have both.

[secondwind]

6. The State of New York is waiting in the wings.............. there will be NO PARDON.

[dlk]

32. Can't you just visualize an orange jumpsuits at Rikers?

Last edited Sat Aug 15, 2020, 04:01 PM - Edit history (2)

[vapor2]

7. Disagree......IT needs to be prosecuted period

along with his family. They are criminals

[brush]

8. No. Prosecute him. Future presidents will be forewarned not to commit crimes.

That's a no-brainer.

[RANDYWILDMAN]

9. you lost me...

When you said &quot In other words, they would do what they have been doing for decades. Steal the presidency.)"


The R's have stolen the presidency at least three times in my life. 2000,2004 and 2016. The amount of damage this has caused may not be repaired in my lifetime.

We are on the brink of chaos, letting Trump off the hook is not the way to go...

[Cyrano]

14. You're right. The damage is virtually permanent.

But prosecuting him at the state level is a way of causing less damage at the federal level -- hopefully.

(I'm having the same problem of typing in a parenthesis and having a "smiley" show up instead.)

[delisen]

12. Thoughtful post.

The fact is that we have had ample time to figure out how to prevent the installation of a Trump- like president.

The old saying that the price of freedom is eternal vigilance turns out to be true as we are now harshly reminded.

The rich among us can be hurt but the rest of us can be totally destroyed by the lack of vigilance.

This is why the the burden of vigilance will rest upon our shoulders.

We cannot depend upon the rich no matter how well meaning to save us.

[totodeinhere]

13. I think it's a pipe dream to expect him to ever see even one day in jail.

Did Nixon go to jail for Watergate? NO.

Did Reagan or George H. W. Bush go to jail for Iran Contra? NO.

Did George W. Bush go to jail for his many war crimes? NO.

If history is any guide, I think that Trump also walks.

[Cyrano]

18. You're probably right

But this is a truth that has existed throughout history. Tyrants don't end up in jail. For the most part, they are assassinated, exiled, shunned (like Nixon), or remain in power until they die.

So I guess we're not an "exceptional" country after all. Our current tyrant stands little chance of ever spending a day in a jail/dungeon.

But my concern goes beyond this particular tyrant. It goes to the tyranny of the Republican Party. They are a criminal organization that needs to be crushed before they can totally crush democracy. But you already know this. How do we reach the rest of America regarding this absolute truth.

[totodeinhere]

21. I think that best we can hope for is reducing the Republican Party to a regional party

based in the Deep South and a few Midwestern states that cannot win national elections.

[Chainfire]

20. I certainly believe that Trump, if defeated, could resign, at the last moment, an have Pence pardon

him, exactly as the Ford/Nixon pardon went down. Pence could absolve him of any crimes that he may have committed in advance of any Federal prosecutions. That in itself is no big deal. What Pence could not do, is save the Trump legacy, or prevent history from remembering Trump as the worst president in the history of the Union.

I think it sets a bad precedent to jail a former President, no matter how much he deserves it. It would just not be worth all of the blow-back from the 40% of true believers. Defeat and disgrace is good enough for me.

If the states decide that they need to go after Trump for criminal activities, so be it, but the correct for the Federal System is to impeach the crooked bastard. Personally, I would find it very satisfying to see Trump in cuffs, in an orange jump suit, but that is my emotions, not my logic speaking. We need Biden and Harris to get to work fixing the huge mess that Trump has left us. The new administration will not need the two or three years of national drama that would follow Federal criminal charges.

[totodeinhere]

24. I don't even think that defeat will mean widespread disgrace.

40% of the country will revere him even if he loses. With support from those many millions he will not be disgraced. And losing his reelection bid is no disgrace. Plenty of presidents lose reelection including George H. W. Bush and Jimmy Carter, who is considered by most historians to have been a great president.

[Cyrano]

27. So he really could shoot someone on 5th Ave and get away with it?

[grantcart]

22. Wrong. That is why you have an INDEPENDENT prosecutor

Appointed by the President confirmed by the Senate and NOT part of the administration.

What you propose is not "not" politicizing prosecution but in fact politicizing crime by saying federal officers cannot be prosecuted because they are a member of a party.

By extension Senators, Congressman cannot be prosecuted.

We don't prosecute elected officials we prosecute crimes.

You are literally proposing that we continue poor and minorities while allowing the rich white politicians to skate free.

[Cyrano]

33. Perception is everything

The Republican Party, and wingnuts of every stripe, will see it as prosecution of their "god" and will vow to take revenge the next time they (steal) have power.

Please, please don't be naive about who and what today's Republicans are. They are mean-spirited, vengeful, dangerous and deadly.

And we must recognize that they are our sworn enemies and treat them as such.

[grantcart]

37. So you are saying because of a minority of a minority

Whose perception of reality is so detached from reality that they cannot correctly identify President Obama's country of birth that regardless of what crimes they have committed they will go free.

This is utter nonsense and consigns us to being unindicted co conspirators of elected officials while we continue to prosecute middle class and poor for crimes.

We have seen in Greece how the acceptance of two standards of laws ultimately leads to the destruction of society as billionaire ship magnates were given a constitutional exemption from income tax (in order to prevent them from moving their business headquarters to some place like the Panama Canal).

The result was that 100% of the independent and self employed ( doctors, lawyers, small business owners) all stopped paying taxes and Greece would devolve into a non functioning state that survives on handouts from Germany and France.

You are advocating for the formal institutionalization of 2 systems of laws and law enforcement, that we stop being a nation of laws and become a nation of laws for 99% and 1% get institutional forbearance and permanent royal standing.

You are endorsing the intellectually bankrupt premise that Donald Trump promotes: That he can shoot someone in public and not be prosecuted.

After Watergate 3 Dozen top officials including 2 Attorney Generals were prosecuted and sent to prison. Universally accepted by the country.

The critical weakness in your argument begins with your totally incorrect premise.

When you start with a bullshit premise everything that follows is bullshit.

Here's why Trump should be federally prosecuted

No one, who understands prosecution, advocates prosecuting a person, we prosecute crimes, not people.

If evidence of a crime is produced then it must be prosecuted.

There are 100 ways to make prosecutions non partisan (independent prosecutor, have a prosecutor picked from a list approved by both parties, etc).

Fortunately the Democratic Party is made up of a lot of intelligent leaders who will have no problem in finding ways to maintain our core values without letting it become a partisan circus, but if we can't then 2 things will be true.

1) if some people are going to be exempt from prosecution because they held elective office then no prosecution of anybody who was not in office is legitimate.

2) the Democratic Party is not fit to be a governing party

Either we are going to be a nation of laws where the law applies to everyone or we become a monarchy where extra legal behavior is bestowed on rich and powerful partisans. Rather shameful that any Democrat would advocate for the latter. I don't want any exemptions for crimes for either Democrats or Republicans, unlike you who want to carve out a new class of 'royals' who can intentionally commit horrific crimes and not be held accountable.

Your second premise that it would have to be prosecuted by the DOJ appears to be uninformed about a significant number of top officials that have been charged and prosecuted by non partisan independent prosecutors over the last 4 decades.

[Crunchy Frog]

23. The whole country needs to learn the full extent of his criminal activities.

I would agree with not imprisoning him, in order not to set a precedent, but it's necessary to hold hearings or trials, or whatever it takes to bring out the full truth.

[Chainfire]

26. It makes no sense

To keep Trump in the front of the news cycle for the next four years if he is defeated. It makes no sense to keep his base fired up. I want him out of office, out of sight, and out of mind. Let him slink into the dark corner of history and write his, "Why's Everybody Always Picking On Me" book. It would be better for Democrats and better for Democracy. Vengeance is mine, says the historian.

Where ever Trump goes shame will follow.

[Cyrano]

29. Okay. But what if he ate a live baby on TV?

Would we, should we let it go?

In effect, he's done virtually everything but that. Are you willing to let this be an established precedent for any future madman who occupies the Oval Office?

[OnDoutside]

28. You will have one shot to fix this, make it count. I have said here a number of times since 2017

that it is highly unlikely that Trump, as much as he deserves it, will ever see a day in jail. I believe that the U.S. establishment will not want to see the nation disgraced by having a former president throw in jail.

That said, it's highly arguable that the nation is already disgraced, so taking the opportunity to jail Trump may actually be cathartic.

[qwlauren35]

35. I completely disagree

I think prosecuting Trump would set a good example to future presidents that illegal activities are not to be tolerated.

I do not want to prosecute him regarding COVID-19. I don't think he has acted maliciously as much as stupidly. (Although the partisan favoritism in providing funds and equipment made me sick).

But the times that he has used the presidency for financial gain - prosecute.
The times that he has manipulated public services for political gain - prosecute.

I want to send a message to future presidents that it is unacceptable.

We want to believe that Trump is the worst president we could ever have. But if we don't prosecute him, we could have someone worse. He just has to be charismatic enough to fool 35% of America.

[kurtcagle]

36. Investigate and Prosecute

Every time we've had a Democratic president followed by a Republican president and the House, the GOP has launched an investigation, even when there's been no evidence of a crime. The idea that you don't investigate a predecessor for wrongdoing is ridiculous, as is the notion that the president is immune from prosecution.

I think there are several things that need to happen:

The Supreme Court needs to be expanded from nine to nineteen justices.

The Department of Justice should be moved out of the executive branch and be made a part of the judiciary. The president appoints an AG, but the nominee must be approved by the Senate, the House and the Supreme Court.

The FBI would become part of the Judiciary.

Either house can request a special counsel, but the SpC is appointed by the attorney general with approval from SCOTUS.

None of these require an amendment, because none of them are covered in the Constitution.

The concept of presidential immunity needs to be clarified into law.

The two things that do need a Constitutional Amendment would be to eliminate impeachment altogether and limiting the pardon. The Special Counsel makes the case to Congress held en banc. Each Congressional Representative has one vote, each Senator has three votes. Should a majority of Congress en banc find the president guilty of charges, then they would be removed from office. If those charges are criminal in nature (violation of the emolument statute, for instance, or corruption, extortion or murder) then the president would be subject to these charges AS A PRIVATE citizen.

A president has the ability to pardon anyone. I would keep this intact, with the proviso that the president cannot pardon a previous president for crimes that they committed while in office. It also may be worth weakening the pardon further, in that a president cannot pardon any person indicted for a crime that additionally incriminates the president.

I have to give Trump credit for one thing - he has shown where the weaknesses are in the current political system.

One final point - the above proposals actually extend the Uniform Code of Military Justice to the president. Congress should not be in the criminal investigation business. The UCMJ is actually a very effective document because it says that while the military can penalize a person within the military (fines and limited jail incarceration) it has largely placed the onus of actual law enforcement on the civilian courts - if a person is discharged, then they can be tried by jurisdictional authorities for crimes committed.

[Divad123]

39. Repubs play fair?

You assume that if trump is prosecuted at a federal level that that will legitimize the repubs to do the same to dems. You expect them to play fair? No, the 'lock her up' crowd don't need a legal president to prosecute dem politicians, they are going to use conspiracy theories as all the evidence they need to convict dem pols--they're trying to do it already--they don't need an excuse.

[Voltaire2]

40. Violating a clause of the constitution is not a crime

unless there is a specific federal law making it a criminal act. His violations of the emoluments clause is grounds for impeachment. It might also violate corruption laws, or not.

Murder charges based on the administrations incompetent Covid response are also dubious.

So I agree, no federal charges for the two specific cases you brought up, because that would be stupid.