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MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
Mon Aug 17, 2020, 02:07 PM Aug 2020

The End of Brands as an Indication of Quality

Yesterday, my wife came into my office and said that water was dripping from the front of the window AC unit in her office. Not normal. So, I went in there (the horror!), and sure enough, it was true. I pulled off the front panel of the AC unit to see if I could fix it by clearing away some crud, but it was going to take more than that, and the old unit was about three years old.

So, I said, "I'll be back shortly." I went to the local Menard's hardware store, where I found a big stack of 5000 BTU window AC units almost at the front of the store. $129.00. So, I grabbed one, swiped my card at the self-serve check stand and headed back to the car. Less than an hour after her complaint, the new AC was in the window and pumping cold air into her office. All was well, once again.

Now, i could have pulled her old unit out, spent an hour or so disassembling it and cleaning out the crud, but that didn't seem worthwhile to me, so the old one will be out on the curb for the next scrapper who drives by.

Normally, I do some product research before buying an appliance like that, but there those cheap-ass "Denali" brand AC units were, piled high and on sale. So...

Later, I did the research I would normally do, after the fact. I did a Google Shopping search for 5000 BTU Window Air Conditioner. Sure enough, there was the one I had bought, available from many places and with many different brand names. There was a GE one, an Admiral one, and several other brands i didn't recognize. All had exactly the same front panel and controls. Same exact cheap-ass window AC unit. Just different brands and different prices. Every last one of them was made somewhere in Asia. I didn't look on mine, but it could have been China or South Korea, or Malasia. Who knows? They're all the same. Just different brands. You put them in your window, plug them in, and they blow cool air. Small AC units are not rocket science. The cheap-ass ones don't have a digital read-out or a remote control. Just a fan speed and mode switch and a thermostat with no temperature numbers on it. (Tip: to set the temperature, start with it on Max Cool and monitor the room temperature. When it gets to the desired temperature, turn the thermostat knob down slowly until the compressor shuts off. Then leave it there.)

All have the same compressor, condenser and evaporator. They're all identical. So, why is the GE one selling for over $200 and the "Denali" one selling for $129? The GE one is no better, nor does it have a longer warranty. it's identical to the one I bought. I knew that, which is why I didn't bother to do a comparison. Menards or Home Depot or Lowes would all have the same unit under one name or another, and all in a big stack, priced within $10 of each other. Walmart has the same one, too, with yet another brand name, for $119 this week. Menard's was closest to my house, so i went there.

See, I knew that they would have a big pile of them just inside the entrance. They always do this time of year. Three or four years from now, I'll probably be going back there for another one, and it will be in a stack in the same place. Maybe it will carry an ArcticAire brand name next time. Who can say?

Brand names are really no longer meaningful for low-priced commodity items. The cheap-ass products are all the same unit, just with different brand names and maybe colors. Low capacity window AC units are commodity items these days. But, you'll find the same phenomenon in every price range. Just look at the product. If the front panel looks exactly the same, it's the same thing. And most of them look exactly the same, if they have the same capacity and same features. They're all made somewhere else and only the brand name changes.

Most consumer products have become commoditized.

29 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The End of Brands as an Indication of Quality (Original Post) MineralMan Aug 2020 OP
My understanding is..... MyOwnPeace Aug 2020 #1
As far as that goes, murielm99 Aug 2020 #2
Well, One Thing We Know... ProfessorGAC Aug 2020 #7
I bought an EGO a couple weeks ago Mosby Aug 2020 #15
You'll Relate To This ProfessorGAC Aug 2020 #17
And the engines are all made in China. MineralMan Aug 2020 #8
I can tell ya that when you're building a computer, brand names are pretty damn important mr_lebowski Aug 2020 #3
I haven't actually built a PC since 1990. MineralMan Aug 2020 #9
If you were a gamer, you WOULD understand the point ;) mr_lebowski Aug 2020 #10
But I'm not, so it doesn't matter. MineralMan Aug 2020 #11
I got that the first time ... I was just sayin' ... mr_lebowski Aug 2020 #13
I've built 4 PCs in the last year and a half, that is definitely true! Initech Aug 2020 #20
I remember our conversations about this :) mr_lebowski Aug 2020 #22
Oh yes! Initech Aug 2020 #23
NICE!!! mr_lebowski Aug 2020 #24
Not that I am aware of. Initech Aug 2020 #25
It's not a gaming issue actually, it's more an idle issue ... mr_lebowski Aug 2020 #26
I don't buy a lot of electronic things like that but I sure did notice the phenomenon Kali Aug 2020 #4
They are use the same OEMs who manufacture based on their Specications. Dream Girl Aug 2020 #5
2 way radios and other things are that way now . same factory but slap a different name plate . AllaN01Bear Aug 2020 #6
Speaking of slapping on different names: Tracer Aug 2020 #12
Foreign trade deals mean cheaper products Yavin4 Aug 2020 #14
We bought a Samsung dishwasher. Thirties Child Aug 2020 #16
I'm not being nasty, but..... MyOwnPeace Aug 2020 #18
The lesson is to buy the warranty when you buy an expensive appliance. Thirties Child Aug 2020 #29
A couple things.... Happy Hoosier Aug 2020 #19
You're basically right, MM. Same Chinese-made stuff with different packages. KY_EnviroGuy Aug 2020 #21
There hasn't been Freon in new window AC units for many years. MineralMan Aug 2020 #27
Perhaps to compete with Trader Joe's, more supermarkets are bringing out reliable house brands Klaralven Aug 2020 #28

MyOwnPeace

(16,928 posts)
1. My understanding is.....
Mon Aug 17, 2020, 02:14 PM
Aug 2020

it is the same for lawn mowers - 1 or 2 companies make just about all of them, especially the "low-end" ones.

One mower comes down the line and gets painted green for John Deere, yellow for Cub Cadet, orange for Husqkvarna, etc., etc.

Yeah, so much for "brand loyalty."

murielm99

(30,745 posts)
2. As far as that goes,
Mon Aug 17, 2020, 02:21 PM
Aug 2020

it is not brand loyalty, but customer service. We get nearly all of our appliances at a local store. They are honest about quality, and they repair things as necessary.

ProfessorGAC

(65,076 posts)
7. Well, One Thing We Know...
Mon Aug 17, 2020, 02:56 PM
Aug 2020

...is that Honda makes Honda lawnmowers. My neighbor has one, and the whole look of the motor is different than other mowers.
Also, I've got an EGO electric mower. EGO makes their mowers here, with plants in China & Europe for those markets.
The batteries, I believe are made in China, but the company is a US spin-off of Chevron! Yes, Chevron.
They did lots of research into alternatives products that don't use gas. Go figure!
I love that mower, and am brand loyal.
When my Toro snow blower becomes a problem, I'm going electric there, too!

Mosby

(16,319 posts)
15. I bought an EGO a couple weeks ago
Mon Aug 17, 2020, 03:45 PM
Aug 2020

I am so over gas engines.

The thing is amazing, sounds like a large fan while running, you can have it running and stand next to it and have a conversation.

I always wanted a Honda, but the price....

ProfessorGAC

(65,076 posts)
17. You'll Relate To This
Mon Aug 17, 2020, 04:06 PM
Aug 2020

My wife had a friend over. They're on our deck, which has 6' privacy walls.
The NE corner of the deck comes the closest to the yard. (Odd geometry of our yard means only on corner of the deck is near the lawn.)
I'm cutting over there and friend asks NY wife "What's he doing out there?". My wife: " Cutting the grass.". Friend "No, that can't be the lawnmower, it's not loud enough!"
When I'm in my backyard, I put on the car radio in my ragtop and can listen to music while I'm cutting.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
8. And the engines are all made in China.
Mon Aug 17, 2020, 02:57 PM
Aug 2020

Even Briggs & Stratton engines are made in China now.

That said, I have several tools with Chinese gasoline engines and they run beautifully.

 

mr_lebowski

(33,643 posts)
3. I can tell ya that when you're building a computer, brand names are pretty damn important
Mon Aug 17, 2020, 02:34 PM
Aug 2020

Try slapping an AMD CPU on a motherboard that's made for an Intel, and you'll quickly discover that 'brands matter'.

AMD and nVidia-based graphics cards are also quite different ... however the exact same AMD or nVidia cards are sold with different names slapped on them ... while at the same time some makers build their own cards based on AMD/nVidia tech and nobody else makes the exact same card.

Also there are many PC power supplies that are identical but rebranded by multiple vendors ... while at the same time there's brands that build their own PSU's and don't license them to others, like Seasonic, Antec, and Corsair.

Branding has definitely become a complicated 'thing' in this day and age, as you say

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
9. I haven't actually built a PC since 1990.
Mon Aug 17, 2020, 03:03 PM
Aug 2020

I used to do it all the time, starting in 1986. I assembled and sold clones to make a little extra money. There was a motherboard supplier in San Jose I used to go to for motherboards. I was there one time to pick up a dozen of them, and the man working in there warned me about one I was thinking about. He said, "Not buy that motherboard. Get Midnight call." I chose a different motherboard.

I don't build PCs these days. I can't see the point of it any longer. I don't do gaming. i don't edit videos. I just use my PC for word processing and web browsing. Usually, I end up with a Dell in whatever model is cheapest with the amount of memory I want. I quit caring about PC specifications a long time ago.

 

mr_lebowski

(33,643 posts)
10. If you were a gamer, you WOULD understand the point ;)
Mon Aug 17, 2020, 03:13 PM
Aug 2020

Building your own gaming machine works out to be a good amount cheaper than buying a 'gaming PC' from Alienware or whoever for one reason. A 'commodity' PC is a different matter, there's not much to be gained to building your own, you are correct. In the higher end though, there definitely (still) is.

I also enjoy the process of choosing my components, and the process of putting the machine together the way I envisioned.

I also like to be able to overclock if I'm so inclined. My current PC I didn't because the new AMD chips are really complicated to OC and that's what I'm running (and it's plenty fast already). If I had an Intel it would be cranked up though cause Intel's are easier/more OC friendly. I know it's kinda pointless as the gains aren't THAT great (not like the old days) but it's still fun to push the machine, get more performance for free, basically.

To me it's just a lot more satisfying 'computing' on a machine I know I built.

 

mr_lebowski

(33,643 posts)
13. I got that the first time ... I was just sayin' ...
Mon Aug 17, 2020, 03:18 PM
Aug 2020

In the particular realm of PC's, 'brand' still actually matters quite a bit.

Cars too.

Initech

(100,081 posts)
20. I've built 4 PCs in the last year and a half, that is definitely true!
Mon Aug 17, 2020, 05:01 PM
Aug 2020

Nearly all of them are based off AMD Ryzen CPUs. I haven't built an Intel rig since 2015 and that was my 6700K PC.

And yes I can definitely attest to the fact that brands are important. There's brands that have way more clout and street cred like Corsair, Seasonic, EVGA, Hyper X, Asus ROG, Gigabyte Aorus, and so on. And then there's brands that you want to avoid like the plague like Ultra and LC Power, and Oloy.

 

mr_lebowski

(33,643 posts)
22. I remember our conversations about this :)
Mon Aug 17, 2020, 05:09 PM
Aug 2020

Just to recount:
3600X
Gigabyte Wi-Fi Wireless Pro (X570)
2 x 8GB TEAM Samsung B-Die sticks at 14-14-14-31 PC3200
EVGA GTX2070 Super - Triple Slot Monster
3 SSD's (2.5 TB total)

My PSU is a trusty old rebranded Enermax Revolution platform (though it's actually an ABS, the guts are Enermax Revo - but without the multiple 'rails' which were a lame thing), Silver efficiency ... it's 850W with single 72A 12V rail. I love this thing, will run it til it dies.

Intel's kinda behind right now for the first time in forever (had been ahead since Conroe, basically), I love it frankly. They'll stay behind until they update to PCI-Ex 4 like AMD has done for X570.

Initech

(100,081 posts)
23. Oh yes!
Mon Aug 17, 2020, 05:17 PM
Aug 2020

I just rebuilt my current rig finally getting rid of a crappy Asrock motherboard that has had a lot of problems since I built it. And I decided to go all out since I wasn't spending as much money on travel or events this year. So this is what my new-ish rig is running:

- Ryzen 9 3900X
- Gigabyte Aorus X570 Ultra
- 4 x 8GB Corsair Dominator Platinum DDR4-3200
- M2 Slot 1: Sabrent Rocket 1TB
- M2 Slot 2: Intel 660P 2TB
- M2 Slot 3: Empty (though I might put another Intel 660P in there)
- EVGA GeForce RTX 2070 Super
- NZXT S340 Elite Special Edition
- EVGA G2 750W

My other two rigs run Ryzen 2600s, and my new laptop runs a Ryzen 7 4800H.

 

mr_lebowski

(33,643 posts)
24. NICE!!!
Mon Aug 17, 2020, 05:32 PM
Aug 2020

I basically have the Junior version of yours lol. I built mine in Dec 2019 when I didn't have as much $ to throw around ... like u I'm saving money staying home lol ...

GMTA on the GPU though, eh? Its pretty much the bang for the buck king at least in the higher end segment. I love mine!

You got the PCIEx4NVME Rocket, eh? I wanted one of those but was just a bit outside the budget. My boot's just a 512GB WD Black NVME at PCIEx3. Then I have 2x1TB SATA SSD's in RAID-0 for storage.

One thing that annoys the crap out of me about this platform is that nothing except Ryzen Master seems to properly read temps and cpu clocks/usage. Not even the freaking motherboard itself. Anything but Master shows the damn temps and CPU usage fluctuating wildly at all times. Temps is most annoying cause it makes setting fan speeds properly a PITA.

Hey, are you using your separate Mobo temp leads? I lost mine and I really want 1 of them so I can grab CPU temp off the side of my AIO cooler instead of the die (which as I say fluctuates annoyingly except in Master).

Initech

(100,081 posts)
25. Not that I am aware of.
Mon Aug 17, 2020, 05:38 PM
Aug 2020

But as far as the GPU goes I have had great luck with the 2070, though next year I am going to get a 3080 or 3090 depending on cost and availability. At which point my 2070 will go into my other rig.

I haven't had that problem with temperatures on my motherboard, though I haven't had much time to really spend gaming on it lately.

As far as storage goes I did get the 4th gen Rocket because I wanted the 4th gen speeds and it was well worth the money.

 

mr_lebowski

(33,643 posts)
26. It's not a gaming issue actually, it's more an idle issue ...
Mon Aug 17, 2020, 06:07 PM
Aug 2020

And I bet you you do have this issue ... you're just not as anal as I am so you've not noticed

Link for original (click the pic and you should be able to read it)
https://imgur.com/B4sjyRq

Check that link out ... I have nothing but Chrome and Spotify (and the monitors) running. Check out CPU Clocks in Afterburner on the left (lower graph) ... Clocks constantly bouncing, and usually quite high (see how right now it's 3200MHz)... then look at Ryzen Master on the right, the top graph, and the speed display ... nice and low speeds, like you'd want your idle to be, and the clocks barely vary as you can see from the graph.

Then compare temps. In afterburner, they bounce CONSTANTLY back and forth from like 39 to 49. In Ryzen Master they're a steady 39-40, and they don't bounce unless I actually do something.

And ANYPLACE you look other than Ryzen Master ... even the built-in GB software or in the BIOS ... you see what you see in Afterburner. Constant variations, CPU not really 'idling', etc.

It bugs the shit out of me. That's why I wanna use one of the Mobo temps leads (they're wires that plug into the mobo and have a temp sensor at the other end, and they come with the board, I'm sure you have at least 2 with the Ultra ) to get temps, so I can assign fan control to the temp on the lead, not the bouncy-bouncy CPU die temp.





Kali

(55,014 posts)
4. I don't buy a lot of electronic things like that but I sure did notice the phenomenon
Mon Aug 17, 2020, 02:36 PM
Aug 2020

with free-standing ice makers. all the same, lots of "brands" and colors, maybe controls in slightly different locations or configuations but they are all the same. get the cheapest and easiest to exchange in case you get a dud.

 

Dream Girl

(5,111 posts)
5. They are use the same OEMs who manufacture based on their Specications.
Mon Aug 17, 2020, 02:37 PM
Aug 2020

Many brand name companies use Extensive pricing and feature trade off studies to optimize the feature set and pricing. Brand is definitely part of the equation. I’ve conducted a lot of these studies in my career though these are commonly done for new prices, features and brands. I doubt this types of studies have done in the cheapie AC carry for many years, but that is a foundational approach to how products are priced...everything from software and computers to credit credit cards. You would not believe the money and time that goes into product planning and pricing and market research in general. I’ve been doing it for 30+ years. Everything some cordless phones to kids cereal to credit cards and tech. https://conjointly.com/analysis/conjoint/?gclid=CjwKCAjw1ej5BRBhEiwAfHyh1Ey87hPyAjsfH6TR2XmmlVKgwXQgnxXqnjUtkxl5rO3KcUHbmZQbVBoCwR0QAvD_BwE

AllaN01Bear

(18,261 posts)
6. 2 way radios and other things are that way now . same factory but slap a different name plate .
Mon Aug 17, 2020, 02:41 PM
Aug 2020

been going on for years .

Tracer

(2,769 posts)
12. Speaking of slapping on different names:
Mon Aug 17, 2020, 03:17 PM
Aug 2020

While visiting my son in NC, I slept in his guest room that had a brand new mattress on the bed.

It was THE most comfortable mattress that I had ever slept on. And since my own bed could use a new one, when I got home I asked him to look on the tag and tell me the name/style of the manufacturer.

Even though I had that information, it was impossible to find a local store that carried that item.

Why? Because large bedding stores order their own from the factories and CHANGE THE NAME. So good luck in finding the one I wanted. So I'm still sleeping on my saggy, lumpy bed.

Thirties Child

(543 posts)
16. We bought a Samsung dishwasher.
Mon Aug 17, 2020, 04:04 PM
Aug 2020

I joked that it was like buying a Whirlpool television. Also, on the advice of my nephew who used to work at a big lot store (now defunct), we bought a warranty. He said for a unit of anything that costs $$ it's worth it to buy a warranty because it's not going to last long. Our Samsung dishwasher cost $500 and after our fourth call for service in our second year, we got our full $500 back. Lesson learned.

MyOwnPeace

(16,928 posts)
18. I'm not being nasty, but.....
Mon Aug 17, 2020, 04:20 PM
Aug 2020

what is the lesson?
The latest flare-up regarding BunkerBoy's tariff wars was supposedly about "protecting" Whirlpool and he slapped a tariff on Canadian aluminum - costing MOST Americans more for whatever appliance they opt to buy.
Maybe it is a problem when you try to protect your buddies (donors!) but what does that do for the rest of our country?

Thirties Child

(543 posts)
29. The lesson is to buy the warranty when you buy an expensive appliance.
Thu Aug 20, 2020, 10:57 AM
Aug 2020

I'm now in Independent Living in a retirement home, so won't be buying any more appliances, except maybe a t.v.

Happy Hoosier

(7,318 posts)
19. A couple things....
Mon Aug 17, 2020, 04:50 PM
Aug 2020

The lower end models of a lot of brands really are made from the same components..... BUT sometimes the better brands actually pay for higher QA standards.... and sometime lower end stuff will accept "second quality" components.

Top of the line units are often still made by the brand, but not always.



KY_EnviroGuy

(14,492 posts)
21. You're basically right, MM. Same Chinese-made stuff with different packages.
Mon Aug 17, 2020, 05:08 PM
Aug 2020

Our landfills are physical proof. This must stop for the sake of the planet, but I don't know what it will take to end the throw-away era. I've always been a Mr. Fix-it, but as you know, many items simply can't be fixed these days. I have a window unit waiting to be cleaned but maybe next year. We're getting by with one window unit for the whole house now by using circulating fans (another subject of my disgust toward products that fail all too soon).

By the way, in my area, we have to pay to have the freon removed from AC units before the garbage trucks will pick them up. I fear the scrap guys that grab stuff off the curb will just vent the freon into the air.

KY.....

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
27. There hasn't been Freon in new window AC units for many years.
Tue Aug 18, 2020, 09:34 AM
Aug 2020

The new refrigerants aren't harmful to the ozone layer like Freon was, as far as I know. Still, it's a concern when getting rid of old AC units, refrigerators, dehumidifiers and cars. Just not as much a concern as when Freon was still in use.

 

Klaralven

(7,510 posts)
28. Perhaps to compete with Trader Joe's, more supermarkets are bringing out reliable house brands
Tue Aug 18, 2020, 10:10 AM
Aug 2020

There has been a lot of consolidation of supermarket chains so that the major corporations have the bargaining power to buy quality products and sell them under their own brands, especially in categories where they can undercut nationally advertised goods with big marketing overheads, such as snacks, chips, cold cereals, etc.

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