My son asks, "Dad, where can I get 15% ethanol at? Because my engines state 15% is max."

[TheBlackAdder]

.

I said, probably nowhere.

Gas companies will all jump on the 20% bandwagon because they'll save money and you'll need to buy more gas, because ethanol has less energy in it and gives you lower gas mileage.

Our cars, powerwasher, generator and small yard tools are not rated for 20% ethanol as it damages their parts, unless you own cars and equipment engineered and built with components that are made to handle higher ethanol levels.


This was Trump's give to the corn people for giving their Chinese supply contracts to Russia.

I can't wait for President Biden to rescind that.

.

[James48]

1. On the other hand

I’m one of the supporters of renewable fuels. I burn E85 in my 2013 Buick. I drive hundreds of miles for work around Michigan, so electrics are not currently an option for me. But renewable ethanol is. Most of it I buy is from corn grown locally. To me, that’s far better than chucking all my money to oil companies.

Is ethanol perfect? Nope. No fuel is.

To me, however, it is much better than petroleum.

( now that I’ve said my piece, I expect the anti-ethanol trolls to all come out. Go ahead, your turn).

[lagomorph777]

3. Burning food (with its high carbon cost) is better than petroleum?

I don't get it.

A Huge amount of petroleum goes into growing that food.

[James48]

6. Yes, it uses some Petroleum to grow corn

But overall, except for studies from ONE GUY, all the data says using ethanol is actually much more carbon friendly that introducing newly released carbon from oil. Remember that carbon released when you burn ethanol is carbon that was converted OUT of the air by corn plants to begin with.

[CentralMass]

18. Not judging either way but remember that corn is a water and fertilizer intensive crop.

So depending on the water source growing large crops of corn can deplete ground water and fertilizer runoff can cause a lot if environmental problems.

[Bengus81]

13. ROFLMAO!! They don't burn "food" that you eat. It's feed corn

That BS is an old RW myth probably started by soon to be DEAD Limbaugh. Corn like you have on you table or popcorn is way to small for that industry to use. They cook the starch out of it for ethanol and then it's passed on for cattle feed type grain. Here's a quote.

"But only part of the kernel is used for ethanol (the starch), the rest of the kernel, including the protein and fat, are then used to make another popular animal feed known as distillers grains. People don't eat field corn directly from the field because it's hard and certainly not sweet."

[lagomorph777]

20. OK - the energy in that starch came from the same land, the same fertilizers, same water

That would have been used for either human or animal feed. It's not free, nor carbon-free. Glad I could entertain you.

[Bengus81]

25. Nice try but most of that land was NOT being used. WE the taxpayers were paying farmers

subsidies not to grow to keep corn prices artificially raised. Did you actually read my post?? That grain IS used for animal feed ONCE it's been processed.

BTW...have you had a problem trying to buy corn or popcorn at the store since ethanol started being sold? That RW nonsense that it take food away from humans is total bullshit.

[NutmegYankee]

49. "Dent" corn

People are always surprised that most corn grown is inedible.

[Bengus81]

50. Pushed years ago by big oil and told Limbaugh to run with it

Most still think it today.

[NutmegYankee]

52. So few have knowledge of agriculture.

A side effect of many never growing their own food. I garden and live in a farming region (sheep, dairy), so I have some knowledge despite my highly technical engineering day job.

[NutmegYankee]

10. It is not trolling to note that most car engines can't use more than 10%.

It’s basically a theft from those people because it will cause expensive damage. The average car is now over 10 years old and climbing with negligible emissions issues.

[Mosby]

16. cars run just fine on 100 percent ethyl alcohol 🍸

the gov won't allow it because people could mix it into their fav drink, at a fraction of the price of Smirnoff.

The only issue is cold starts:

https://slate.com/culture/2012/08/can-you-really-run-a-car-on-moonshine-fact-checking-the-new-movie-lawless.html

[SlogginThroughIt]

27. Ethanol absolutely can cause damage.

Fuel pumps, intake parts, etc.

[Mosby]

29. Cars made after 2000 can deal with extra H2O.

thats the issue, water in the system.

Eta I dont think corn based alcohol fuel is the way to go.

[SlogginThroughIt]

32. Good luck. YMMV

[NutmegYankee]

30. That is absolutely false for modern fuel injected engines.

The fuel injection system runs off of a software map that sets injector open time and timing advancement. Most cars are not coded to handle more than 10-15% ethanol before they will develop pre-ignition (pinging) that the knock sensor can't correct. In addition, the injectors are not designed to handle the higher corrosion and water content of high ethanol fuel and will corrode quickly and fail.

Modern cars are far different from a Ford Model A.

[Mosby]

33. Wrong - EVERY car made after 2000 is designed to accept alcohol.

the only issue was the extra water created, which has been dealt with.

Eta if your right, which you aren't, why are people selling a 85 percent alcohol blend?

[NutmegYankee]

39. Again, absolutely false. Most are 10% to 15% ethanol max.

Certain cars are specifically designed and equipped to run up to E85. Those vehicles will note this. Use of E85 in other vehicles will result in $1000s of damage. We need to get out of this conspiracy theory dumbfuckery that this is just an effort to help oil companies. There are differences in the components between 10% and 85% engines.

[Bengus81]

17. I ran 20% in a 1993 Chevy 3/4 ton cargo van for YEARS......

That engine had 175k+ miles on it after a rebuild years before. Worked PERFECT, ran fine and saved a load in fuel costs. The ONLY thing that needs to change in old vehicles that would try and use E85 are fuel system lines, the older lines can't handle the alcohol.

Newer vehicles that don't say they are E85 can easily run E85 by having a mechanic change some of the fuel setting in the computer.

[underpants]

2. Even 10% deteriorates engine life

I know a couple people who have lawn care businesses and they hate ethanol.

[Bengus81]

7. LOL...not true. I ran a lawn care biz for 5+ years

All the gas I had was 10% that went into everything and it never hurt any engine I had. What kills those types of engines is not maintaining them like they should be for the hours being put on them.

Most people change the oil in their mower once a season IF they even do that. We changed oil in mowers every two weeks. Air filters were cleaned and rotated every week. Plugs were changed twice per season.

I had four Excel Hustlers that cost nearly $10k each in the early 90's and they worked fine with 10% ethanol.

[SlogginThroughIt]

31. I have lost several pieces of equipment

I have lost several pieces of equipment to ethanol. I know because the neighborhood repair shop confirmed it. I only use trufuel in my stuff now.

[Bengus81]

35. And I never lost one. That includes 20HP Kohler engines on $10,000 Hustlers

We ran top of the line weed eaters and blowers like Green Machine, Shindowa and Echo. Those are commercial products that cost $300 or so back then. Never had one problem with any of them that was related to fuel. I did however have trouble early on trying to use cheap stuff for commercial work.

Never used any of that Sta-bil crap either. After the season was over I would start and run all the engines once every 7-10 days for 10 minutes or so and add fresh fuel to their tank. Never had any fuel or carb problems.

Draining or running the fuel out of your home mowers and you might find next year they won't start. Why...because the float has dropped down and set there in that position all winter and can lock in the down position. I found that out on a snowblower I have with a Briggs engine. Never happened again.

[SlogginThroughIt]

36. put stabil in my 83 mariner every year

I fog the carb and run stabil into it and every year it statts strong and runs just fine. Maybe your stuff runs great with varnish in it?

[Bengus81]

40. Doesn't have varnish in it, does your lawnmower get varnish in carbs just doing a weekly mowing?

Yeah...didn't think so. Read my post? Guess not because you skipped over the "running the engines every 7-10 days during the winter" part.

[SlogginThroughIt]

53. LOL I put stabil i them.

[roamer65]

43. 10 pct ethanol/gasoline can phase separate.

Stabil probably stops the separation, especially if it gets rid of the water.

[NutmegYankee]

42. If you use the engine often with fresh fuel, it's OK

Most homeowners use the mower once every two weeks and then it sits all winter. Water gets into the fuel and causes carburetor damage. I use marine grade stabilizers in equipment tanks, drain carb bowls, and swap out my steel 5 gallon cans every two months (goes into my old car) with fresh fuel to eliminate the problem.

It can be done and obviously you are doing the maintenance. Your average person doesn't, and remembers when gas wasn't such a problem.

[James48]

9. It's actually cleaner burning than petroleum

Ad engines last longer, not shorter, when ethanol is the fuel used. The only exception is older small engines (mostly pre-1990) that were not designed with ethanol in mind. Today all engines no longer use real rubber compounds in their fuel systems. The result is better lasting engines, except some people think their engines are harmed. The data actually shows otherwise.

[Bengus81]

22. Yep...next door neighbor works at a ethanol plant here

He laughs but also gets pissed at the BS lies that the RW idiots egged on by Limbaugh and big Oil to make it sound like your pouring sand in your gas tank when using ethanol.

[Baclava]

23. I had to replace the carburetor on my 1 year old lawnmower because of that crap!

Just read why ethanol is bad for small engines, no additives can save them. Its alcohol, it eats rubber and plastic.

[SlogginThroughIt]

37. Agreed. My personal experience leads me to my conclusions.

[Bengus81]

38. And the engine manufacturer on a 1 year old engine doesn't know that nearly ALL pumps have ethanol?

LOL...come on. Around here the ONLY place you can find pure 100% gas is at QT and they RIP your ASS off on the price. But..if ethanol haters want to pay that premium then go for it and I'll laugh watching them pay and pay.

[Baclava]

41. The engine is fine, its a Briggs & Stratton, the carbs are full of plastic!

[roamer65]

44. Yes, ethanol is a solvent.

[EX500rider]

4. "I can't wait for President Biden to rescind that" He was Vice Prez when it happened.

The Obama Administration set the goal of installing 10,000 blender pumps nationwide by 2015. These pumps can dispense multiple blends including E85, E50, E30 and E20 that can be used by E85 vehicles. The US Department of Agriculture (USDA) issued a rule in May 2011 to include flexible fuel pumps in the Rural Energy for America Program (REAP). This ruling provided financial assistance, via grants and loan guarantees, to fuel station owners to install E85 and blender pumps.

In May 2011 the Open Fuel Standard Act (OFS) was introduced to Congress with bipartisan support. The bill required that 50 percent of automobiles made in 2014, 80 percent in 2016, and 95 percent in 2017, be manufactured and warrantied to operate on non-petroleum-based fuels, which included existing technologies such as flex-fuel, natural gas, hydrogen, biodiesel, plug-in electric and fuel cell. Considering the rapid adoption of flexible-fuel vehicles in Brazil and the fact that the cost of making flex-fuel vehicles was approximately $100 per car, the bill's primary objective was to promote a massive adoption of flex-fuel vehicles capable of running on ethanol or methanol fuel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_the_United_States#Legislation_and_regulations

[Bengus81]

28. Since we have a plant here we have several station with blender pumps

Pretty cool--four or five different blends of ethanol from 10% to E85.

[TheBlackAdder]

48. E85 vehicles can use it, Non-E85 vehicles and engines cannot.

.

These pumps can dispense multiple blends including E85, E50, E30 and E20 that can be used by E85 vehicles.

.

[gay texan]

5. I know a lot of people who use E85 as race fuel

it's 110 octane

[Mosby]

8. E85 is 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent gasoline.

FYI.

Eta the reason that its not 100 percent is because people would drink it like vodka and we can't have that. The gas is put in there as a poison.

Pure ethanol has an octane rating of 113.

[TheFarseer]

11. Renewable fuels has a place

But the truth is corn is probably not the best biomass to use (except if you’re talking about rotten corn)

[lagomorph777]

12. Until we complete the electric conversion. Which is accelerating.

Admittedly I don't buy new cars very often, but my next one will be electric.

[Miguelito Loveless]

24. It is the future

And they’re damn fun to drive.

[James48]

34. There will be a market

For a long time for ethanol mixture vehicles, as electric alone doesn’t have the range that I need for my work. At least for now. I drive 200+ miles a day about five or six times a month.

The Chevy Volt was looking good, and I was hoping for an SUV to carry things , built on a Volt platform, and capable of using E85 as well.

But then GM gave up on E85 when the EPA stopped giving extra credit for using it, and then Trump was inserted into office, and killed the mileage standards, and with those two punches, the E85 auto became $50 more expensive to produce than a gasoline auto, with no counter-regulatory benefit, and it died. As did the Volt.

Sigh.

[EX500rider]

15. Corn:

Over 93% of all corn grown in the United States is never fed directly to people, but is instead used as livestock feed.
Corn used to produce ethanol contains a high amount of starch and is not easily digestible by humans, like sweet corn. American farmers grow more corn than people purchase; there is an annual surplus of corn in the U.S.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_vs._fuel

[TheFarseer]

26. I'm well aware

My dad’s a farmer so I hate to be down on corn ethanol. It’s not so much an issue of the corn we already have isn’t going to be used for food anyway if it’s not used for ethanol as an issue of do we need to keep planting so much corn every year. It would be better if we used corn waste or something that doesn’t take as much resources to grow as much as I hate to say it.

[mwooldri]

14. Sheetz.

E15 is available at a lot of Sheetz (in North Carolina anyway). About the only place I've seen it. Does label it for cars built since 2001 and not to use in small engines.

[EX500rider]

19. What State are you in? In Fla E15 is all you are going to get at most pumps..

....WaWa does have a few Unleaded 90 pumps at many of their stations for boat owners.

[Miguelito Loveless]

21. I converted all my yard tools to electric

after switching my car.

Cleaner, quieter, less maintenance, nothing flammable and carcinogenic around the house.

[GulfCoast66]

45. My boat mechanic loves ethanol in gasoline.

Says the damage it does accounts for over a quarter of his business.

Our boat only gets ethanol free. Same with the truck when pulling the boat.

[hunter]

46. I'm not in any way representing the Democratic Party here...

... but using corn for fuel or animal feed sucks.

We should buy the fuel and feed corn farmers out and convert the land back to open range, forest, or wilderness.

[former9thward]

47. President Biden will not rescind anything about ethanol.

It has been with us with Clinton and Obama. It will not change.

[Bengus81]

56. Funny how in my city they bitch about ethanol even though pure gas is available.

But QT and other stations charge another 50 cents per gallon for it because it's 100% gasoline.

Doing the math if I used pure gas in my car instead of 10% ethanol I would get another 14.08 miles out of a tank of gas based on a 4% gain. Problem is it would cost me an additional $8.00 on a fill up to gain those 14.08 miles or .57 mpg.

[Bantamfancier]

51. Not to get off topic, but his statement led

me to wonder what tire pressure he has his tires at?
Did he read the sidewall and air them up to the max?

That can be very dangerous, especially in wet conditions.

[SmartVoter22]

54. Your son is onto something here...

Your son is onto something here, he is on the right track.....he just needs to frame the question a bit better.

Let's talk about combustible fuels....
Jet fuel is just kerosene with some high purity specs.
Av-gas for piston planes is 100 octane gas, also with high purity specs.
Automobiles have three or four formulations, and then added 'seasonal' variations to accommodate air temperatures and barometric pressures, like planes need.

Can't our bio-chemists come up with a fuel that any combustion or turbine engine could use?
Standardize one formula, with 100 octane or more, that the particulate pollutants can filtered out and stored on board, after combustion, for later removal and processing.

Anyone can buy a Bentley that uses Flex fuel and go 200mph. What the hell is wrong with the oil company mindset other than greed.

Come on, this has got to be simple bio and organic chemistry with a bit of physics tossed in for good measure.

There is no reason a Fiat 500 cannot haul a 25,000lb boat around at 75mph and get 80mpg.
and we can make things simpler for the younger drivers, getting confused at the pumps.
The world would also want a universal fuel as it would cost less to produce being the only type that could be made or sold. What cheap universal fuel??

Hey, Elon Musk give this guys son a phone call.

[dsp3000]

55. You know one regulation that Trump would rescind is the stupid EPA gas can designs

the current designs have made me spill more gas when filling up my outdoor power equipment than the older style ones.
With regard to ethanol it just seems like a total waste of energy and an effort to prop up the corn industry in the US. the republicans can say they are supporting the farmers, the democrats can say that it's better for the environment. But it sucks and you get worse MPG's for your vehicle.

[Buckeyeblue]

57. I always thought the problem with Ethanol was

It's efficiency. It takes almost as much energy to make Ethanol as it produces. This is an argument from years ago so maybe the efficiency has improved. Or maybe that was just a big oil lie.

I have heard that if your car isn't rated to use it that you shouldn't because of the way the alcohol dries out rubber and plastic parts.

[sl8]

58. Where to buy ethanol-free gas in the US and Canada:

https://www.pure-gas.org/index.jsp

[Amishman]

59. Yup, I only use ethanol free in small engines.

Makes a huge huge difference, especially if it sat for a while