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D23MIURG23

(2,850 posts)
Sat Oct 31, 2020, 10:21 PM Oct 2020

An Odd Thing Happend Last Presidential Election.

I remember debating right wingers in various places during the run up to the 2016 election about who would win. I had poll numbers to cite, and analytics based models from places like fivethirtyeight.com, and they had their gut instincts about "what people want" and how people generally feel about Hillary Clinton. I felt confident they were wrong because of the unscientific and (frankly) silly basis for their assertions.

Then something odd happened. There was a systematic error in the polls, and Hillary Clinton lost.

It was demoralizing and IMO a lot of people learned the wrong lessons from it.

A bunch of the right wingers I was talking to learned that they are Nostradamus, and that their gut instincts are infallible.

And a lot of us learned that we can't trust polls and statistical models, no matter what.

I think it's worth noting that what happened last election was ODD. There was a relatively large polling error, and there were a relatively large number of undecided voters. If you don't think the douchebag Trump supporters who were crowing about how Trump would ride a silent majority to the whitehouse before the last election are more insightful than the average person, then ask yourself what you can actually trust.

I think the answer is the people who spend their careers trying their best to implement accurate and dispassionate models of how the electorate is thinking.

Polls aren't always accurate, and neither are the analyses that follow from them, but lets take a minute to appreciate that in 2016 the polling error was ABNORMAL (i.e. the largest since before the 1980s), and not read too much into it.

Don't give in to irrational worry. Stay calm, trust the polls and GOTV!

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Claustrum

(4,845 posts)
2. It wasn't just polling error but that the "undecided" voters broke heavily toward Trump.
Sat Oct 31, 2020, 10:25 PM
Oct 2020

I still believe it was Comey that did it. It gave Trump the opportunities to talk about "corrupt Hillary". The lean right people went home to Trump while the lean left people were turned off (stayed home or voted 3rd party), and the independent voters rather give Trump a chance than the investigations that they can foresee with Hillary and a republican house/senate.

 

Drunken Irishman

(34,857 posts)
4. I definitely trust polls.
Sat Oct 31, 2020, 10:29 PM
Oct 2020

I think the next batch of polls will ease my mind (I hope). It is about momentum and a lot of state polls didn't pick up that momentum swing for Trump four years ago.

Take Pennsylvania:

There were really only two legitimate polls released the final week of the campaign: Monmouth & Morning Call/Muhlenberg College poll. Monmouth had Hillary +4 and Muhlenberg had Hillary +6. The rest were a bunch of low-grade pollsters. Even Muhlenberg, which is a A+ pollster, had a MOE of 5.5 points, or almost all of Hillary's lead. Two really good polls in the final week was not enough to get a real sense of the race.

That uncertainty wasn't on our radar in 2016 because we still felt comfortable based on previous polls.

ABC News is going to release its final state polls tonight at midnight. I suspect Pennsylvania will be included in that one. If it's Biden +5 or greater, awesome. I'll feel better.

Thekaspervote

(32,773 posts)
11. The Economist poll aggregator which excludes traflagar, Rasmussen, Emerson polls
Sat Oct 31, 2020, 10:52 PM
Oct 2020

Because of poor polling methodology that drag 538 and RCP averages down unnecessarily shows a poll avg in PA Biden 53.1 trump 46.9

https://projects.economist.com/us-2020-forecast/president/pennsylvania

 

Drunken Irishman

(34,857 posts)
12. Emerson actually came out with a really good Wisconsin poll today (Biden +8).
Sat Oct 31, 2020, 10:58 PM
Oct 2020

But there are smaller polls that aren't biased that just aren't as great, either. I'm thinking polls like RMG Research, Gravis, Civiqs and Ipsos that are not bad but not at the level of, say, ABC, FOX News, Quinnipiac, NYT/Siena and the like.

Looking at those polls, only Quinnipiac University and Muhlenberg College are really high quality polls. They have Biden up +7 and +5, so, average it out to 6, which is where I suspect he should be at right now. Of course, Muhlenberg College & and Quinnipiac's samples were started in the field over a week ago, which feels like an eternity. So, we don't have any recent polls whose sample is solely this week.

I suspect the ABC News Poll will have that sample. I also suspect it'll be Biden +3, like 50-47 or 49-46. I hope I'm wrong, though.

JI7

(89,251 posts)
6. There wasn't much error in the Polls. There is a lot of revision about what happened in 2016
Sat Oct 31, 2020, 10:32 PM
Oct 2020

There was a difference in how things were after Comey but even before Comey she was in a worse position than Biden even if she was ahead .

The media constantly attacked her on made up shit while ignoring the truth about Trump.

Pobeka

(4,999 posts)
7. If actual votes tallied were not hackable like polls are not hackable, polls would predict better.
Sat Oct 31, 2020, 10:33 PM
Oct 2020

Voter registration lists can be electronically hacked -- forcing use of provisional ballots that are generally not counted, or the voter just walks away.
Voter signatures can be challenged, and the vote thrown out in some states.
Electronic ballots -- well, enough said.

Without all those hurdles to fair voting, I'm sure polls would give a consistent picture of elections, especially exit polls -- like they used to do 40 years ago...

VOTE -- OVERWHELM the HACKING!!!

VOTE VOTE VOTE!!!

Thekaspervote

(32,773 posts)
13. HRC slipped dramatically in polling in WI, MI and PA during the last week
Sat Oct 31, 2020, 11:01 PM
Oct 2020

?s=21

I thought I could find some actual %s didn’t


?s=21

Zeitghost

(3,862 posts)
10. The 2016 polls
Sat Oct 31, 2020, 10:48 PM
Oct 2020

Were relatively correct and largely within the margin of error. The national polls finished up at Hillary +3% to 4% and she won the national vote by 2%. Polls in the rust belt states were off 3% to 5% (within the margin of error on most) and that ended up being the difference.

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