Bill Maher absolutely says why 72 million voted for Trump...........

[MRDAWG]

ALL DEMOCRATS need to watch the end of last Friday's show. It's called "New Rules". Maher nails it. If you wonder how anyone could vote for Trump, Bill will tell you.

[Squinch]

1. .

[Yavin4]

2. I saw it, and he's wrong.

Trump's voters are angry that the culture is moving away from them, and Trump is seen as the vessel to express their anger. Their support of Trump is irrational, and there's little to nothing that the Democratic party can do to overcome this.

[Spider Jerusalem]

9. Their support of Trump is perfectly rational, from their perspective

Trump is the candidate of overt white supremacy. This is what they want and what they voted for.

[OnDoutside]

36. Undoubtedly some, but many are just left behind and only one party

is speaking to them. Unfortunately that's the Republicans/RW media and they've been telling them a bucket full of lies. The only way to get through to them is, as Joe says, represent all of America and go ahead with the changes they've promised. The problem of course is the Senate.

[elleng]

58. Thanks. Not getting into this debate (right now, anyway,)

but you are surely right to say 'some, but many are just left behind . . .)

[Spider Jerusalem]

82. Nah, it's the racism, not "economic anxiety"

Donald Trump’s support in the 2016 campaign was clearly driven by racism, sexism, and xenophobia. While
some observers have explained Trump’s success as a result of economic anxiety, the data demonstrate that anti-immigrant sentiment, racism, and sexism are much more strongly related to support for Trump. Trump’s much-discussed vote advantage with non-college-educated whites is misleading; when accounting for racism and sexism, the education gap among whites in the 2016 election returns to the typical levels of previous elections since 2000. Trump did not do especially well with non-college-educated whites, compared to other Republicans. He did especially well with white people who express sexist views about women and who deny racism exists.

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgov/2019/08/14/trump-and-racism-what-do-the-data-say/

[LAS14]

113. If I understand you, I agree. It's not a good idea to describe everyone in a group the same way. n

[elleng]

115. Got it.

[yankeepants]

52. I have boiled it down to this; one group believes dems will take their guns

the other believes they will have to pay their taxes. Guess which group they send to the streets.

[Thekaspervote]

25. I think the one big thing we can do to over come it is to court the youth vote

The gop has nothing to offer the younger generations that are very color blind and could care less about sexual orientation

[octoberlib]

39. The problem with this is ,though, that quite often the youth doesn't vote.

They wouldn't even turn out for Sanders. Depending on the youth vote would mean a permanent GOP controlled House and Congress.

[no_hypocrisy]

3. Easy to understand:

72 million Americans (most likely white) want our country to become (or stay) an apartheid state.

[Thekaspervote]

16. This. They don't care if they burn it down, as long as they are on top

[Skittles]

4. could you tell us what he said?

thanks

[Dr. Strange]

15. Video:

[Binkie The Clown]

48. Amen! More common sense from Bill Maher than I hear from half the Democrats I know.

Whine and cry and piss and moan if you must, but if we DON'T let some common sense into our party, we will find ourselves in the trash bin of history. Day after day after day Democrats keep spouting nonsense that the right turns right around and beats us over the head with. Stuff that ordinary people with ordinary common sense recognize for shear idiocy.

I can't discuss anything with my RW sisters without hearing "Well, YOU want open borders. YOU want to defund the police. You think it's OK to burn and loot businesses in the name of your cause. etc. etc."

I know I risk getting banned for stepping on sensitive toes, but it's the god damned over sensitive toes that are killing the Democratic party. My party. And if I get banned, then I suppose the Democratic party has gone someplace strange and left me behind.

[oswaldactedalone]

53. I agree completely

[doc03]

68. Is there a Democratic website that is more in line with our thinking? I find here

you can't have a discussion about the problems with the party without getting silenced.

[marlakay]

123. I just hope it doesn't take more losses

In the senate and house to wake us up to our real problems and issues.

Everyone seems to disagree with what they are depending on whether they are progressive or moderate. We have to find a way to communicate within our party or its going to eventually split us up.

As far as I know this is the best forum but any type of negativity towards dems is frowned upon here so I never share those thoughts. I wonder how many others might have good ideas to fix problems that also keep quiet?

[muriel_volestrangler]

127. The Dems made net gains in the Senate

The only seat lost was Alabama (which had been Republican for a long time; it was the Republicans choosing a mall sex pest that handed it to us last time). We gained a seat in Colorado and Arizona; and are competitive in Georgia.

[muriel_volestrangler]

71. So you say the Democratic party doesn't have any common sense in it?

And you let "common sense" be defined for you by your RW sisters?

Maybe you should stand up for yourself, and also for actual common sense. This is not a question of "sensitive toes"; it's that you have been persuaded by your sisters that the Republican viewpoint is the "common sense" one. You're wrong. So are your sisters.

[Blue_true]

90. The poster's sister didn't come up with a term like "defund the police", or

believe that every social ill can be solved with street protests. We need to think about the consequences of how we define problems or try to address them. We make too many poorly thought out statements, or get our selves into situations that we should avoid. Saturday’s Trump voter rally was a perfect case in point, his losers came to DC to whine, instead of totally fucking ignoring them and going about our day, some on our side thought it a good idea to have “counter protests”. What in the hell was being “countered”, a gathering by whiny losers?

[muriel_volestrangler]

93. Anyone who voted for Trump is clearly fine with street protests

because we've seen plenty of those from anti-maskers. So this idea that there is no common sense in the Democratic Party, and that explains why millions of people voted for Republicans, doesn't work. It's nonsense.

What problems do you think were caused by the counter-protesters? I can see that they may not have solved any problem, but what are the bad consequences you think are about to happen?

[Blue_true]

97. Why counter protest a gathering of whiny losers? That is my point.

Exactly what was the counter protesters trying to accomplish? What? Being there was simply illogical in my view.

[muriel_volestrangler]

99. Right, so it was a waste of time. Nothing to do with how people vote.

So Maher is wrong.

[Blue_true]

102. The violence that took place with our people there influences voters.

If the Trumpers want to get violent with regular people going about their business, that damages them and the police if the police allow it to happen. But when there are counter protesters for an already silly cause, the only possible outcome will be violence and street fights, when that happens, our image always seem to suffer because Fox News take the violence and run with it, while no news organization works to tell the truth.

[muriel_volestrangler]

104. If there were no counter-protesters, the message would be "everyone agrees with Trump"

and "how come no one disagrees with Trump?"

If it's inevitable that the silly Trumpers will start fights if anyone counter-protests, then the choices are (a) let them look like the only "voice of the people", or (b) counter-protest, and see the Trumpers starting a fight. So a good idea would be to film it. I've seen film of Trumpers starting a fight. This seems to have worked.

[Blue_true]

105. No, the message would be whiny people making a spectacle of themselves. nt

[UTUSN]

107. Been said forever that Dems/Libs look inside for root causes, wingnuts look outside blaming others.

Last edited Sun Nov 15, 2020, 09:30 PM - Edit history (1)

MAHER and others are demonized here for hosting (some) wingnuts, but I've never seen him *agree* with them. I don't watch him much, only by YouTube clips, this only recently, so before I get gigged about this, no I don't have extensive exposure to him. Granted, he's at the Libertarian edge of us. But he goes toe to toe with the wingnut guests and fairly much faces them down.

I don't "discuss" with wingnuts. I attack them out of hand. Yet I claim one of my core values to be freedom of thought. I know that converting others to my/our side, away from their own ingrained beliefs, is mostly impossible. I also regard most who are in the way-Middle or Third-way as being wishy-washy, namby-pamby and sometimes even collaborating with The Enemy.

I saw the MAHER clip the morning after on YouTube, and as usual I expected and got from it somewhat uncomfortable truth, that sensation of admitting to myself that I agree with something outside of my "acceptable" thinking.

I'm a blue collar veteran type, yet am a 3rd generation Democratic Party individual. I check off all the boxes of the Democratic general agenda: Civil rights, civil liberties, social justice, stewardship of the planet.

I'm also a mass or mess of contradictions. I have differed with my Dem/Lib boomer generation. If I get specific, the flaming will ensue here. That's the point about MAHER (and others sort of like him), that we (not him) in our own party know we have to tippy-toe about some things.

I don't believe that those who claim to be "true" Democrats, yet spend more time attacking fellow DU members than they do wingnuts, are deep thinkers or living up to their claims of ideological purity.

****** ON EDIT: And kudos to the O.P. for bravery in hosting a successful discussion on MAHER.

[coti]

89. I somewhat agree with his point, but disagree that Dems didn't win bigger entirely BECAUSE of that.

I think it's less the message and more about media structure and cultural support. Fox News, Limbaugh, OAN, etc.- the Rebootlickers have been focused for decades on propping up their stupid, shitty ideas with broadcasting and think tanks, even as they lose money doing it. It's a loss leader for them- they know that they're controlling minds with it and will get that money back in their anti-democratic control of policy.

And the Russians are helping them with it, now.

Dems need to better penetrate and control the airwaves themselves. It's not about the exact CONTENT of the message, it's about being able to control it. And to get people out to the voting booths.

The cultists have so many advantages that automatically give them headstarts in elections- the Electoral College, the Senate, gerrymandering and even the voting tendencies of seniors vs. younger people. Their control of the airwaves just helps to solidify those other structural advantages and makes it look like there are more of them than there are at the voting booths.

[Ridin4Biden]

5. Screw Bill Maher

[Binkie The Clown]

10. The truth will set you free. But first it will really piss you off.

Bill Maher pisses off a lot of people, yet speaks a lot more truth than most.

[GoneOffShore]

20. He's a wanker. And has an overinflated sense of his own importance.

[Binkie The Clown]

26. I find myself agreeing with him quite often. What does that make me? nt

[GoneOffShore]

31. You get to choose.

[wcast]

81. Lol

This made me laugh out loud 😂

[Thekaspervote]

27. Yes..typical armchair politician. Lots of stories...NO ideas or solutions

[Binkie The Clown]

33. I see we've already found a topic for the post-Trump DU to shout and scream about. nt

[USALiberal]

76. Lol, thanks for your informative post!

[empedocles]

6. Maher is right. His argument is 'common sense'. 'Defund the police' defies common sense.

Most all Dems, not in safe blue districts, had have negative reactions to Defund.

[Yavin4]

8. "Defund the police" alone did not motivate Trump voters.

That's an overly simplistic analysis with no data to support it. Was it a factor? Yes, but the larger factor was that Trump is seen as a vessel in the culture wars. He makes Liberals angry. That's all it takes.

[empedocles]

19. 64% oppose the Defund movement. That's the middle that largely determine winners.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/64-americans-oppose-defund-police-movement-key-goals/story?id=71202300

[Yavin4]

21. Show me the Democrat or Democratic platform that called for Defunding the Police.

Thank you.

[empedocles]

30. Platform? That's a real vote bloc mover. Lot of politics is about who doesn't like who.

The squad gets far more rw publicity, than Dems, [many who to try and explain away Defund].

[Thekaspervote]

32. Exactly...the pukes pushed that..not us. uneducated voters that would not have voted dem anyway

[empedocles]

45. Maher, and many others, have made the point of dismissing 48% of voters - and

expecting to win . . .

Again 64%!

[OnDoutside]

43. How about this ?

Defunding police means defunding police,” said Ms Ocasio-Cortez. “It does not mean budget tricks or funny math. It does not mean moving school police officers from the NYPD budget to the Department of Education’s budget so the exact same police remain in schools”.

Ms Ocasio-Cortex added on Tuesday that “the fight to defund policing continues” because communities had demanded less police on the streets – not reallocated police budgets.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/nypd-budget-cuts-aoc-defund-protests-black-lives-matter-new-york-city-vote-a9595146.html

[muriel_volestrangler]

75. Specifically, she wanted a decrease in the NYC police budget from $6bn to $5bn

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-aoc-nypd-de-blasio-george-floyd-protest-defund-police-a9553606.html

which does not "defy common sense".

[OnDoutside]

83. If you are only a headline reader, all you would then see is Dems

want to take a billion away from police budget. Now you and I would know that she would mean something else but the top line would be weaponized. And that's the problem. As I have said elsewhere, rather than Defund the Police, how about saying Fund the Police to provide social workers or psychological professionals to attend domestics, provide all officers with de-escalation training etc. Isn't that a better way of saying what you plan to do ?

[muriel_volestrangler]

91. Which would mean Maher and the DUers who agree with him are wrong.

That would mean it's not about "common sense". It would be about presentation and framing. I would agree that "defund the police" is a poor way of putting it, because it can sound like saying "don't give them any money at all".

[OnDoutside]

124. I think the widespread reaction to the George Floyd murder shows

the disgust that most people had for his barbaric treatment.

Once that dissipated, it became a question of "what do we do about it" and while the notion of spending less on the militarisation of the police, to spending more on psychologists, better de-escalation training etc, makes complete "commonsense", someone packaged it as Defund the Police. eg "we are going to take money away from the Police budget", there's no other way to read that. So yes, it is about presentation and framing.

While the far left have traditionally been extremist in their use of language, it did not previously matter because they rarely got into a position of influence. That has changed in recent years, with the election of some pretty far left candidates, but their rhetoric has not, which is then used by the right to scare unsuspecting voters.

[OnDoutside]

135. Paul Krugman has interesting comments of this sort of thing

Particularly from 12:30

[wellst0nev0ter]

47. There were more Q republicans who won seats

Than there are elected Dems who openly support defund the police. Those who lost allowed their campaigns to be defined by the rightwing noise machine, like that from Bill Maher.

[gulliver]

106. It doesn't matter that we de-emphasized it and refined its meaning to something sensible.

It's suicidal as rhetoric. The Republicans only had to get a couple of signs and a couple of video clips to kill, perhaps, hundreds of thousands of votes with it. Dem coalition members should never, ever shit on police in a general or broad brush way. Only specific police, specific departments, specific unions are fair game.

Since it's often better to replace a bad habit with a good habit than to try to stop the bad habit cold, I'd suggest we find a replacement "bad guy" to take the blame for any and all bad things police do. I nominate the Republican Party.

[Polybius]

147. Cori Bush called for it

But she won her race for Congress.

[Blue_true]

94. It likely kept some of the people who didn't vote on the sidelines.

It likely cost us down ballot races where a voter voted for Biden, but not our lower ticket due to an ill informed belief that our candidate would fall under the influence of people that are shouting defund the police. Police reform and addressing police that are too quick to resort to lethal force need to be addressed urgently, but we won’t get there with poorly thought out phrases that have no remote relationship to how we should address the problem.

[Thekaspervote]

13. It wasn't the Dems pushing it. It was an unfortunate statement, the right grabbed hold of that

And said we were Despite big push back from our side

[EllieBC]

17. Some Dems did push it.

AOC had it on her website!

Yes she’s in a safe blue district so she babble nonsense that doesn’t play well anywhere else. But to deny there weren’t dems that didn’t rub with it is disingenuous.

[empedocles]

24. AOC on video, was all over fox, etc.

From there, given the conflict caused by AOC in Dem ranks, that became main stream media news.

[OnDoutside]

50. Yes, it doesn't need to be part of a platform for the RW to weaponize it.

All that is asked of them is to choose their words carefully instead of shooting from the lip.

[empedocles]

56. There are mixed motive involved. Hard to believe any of the Defund people

think that Defund is a winning November issue for Dems.

[OnDoutside]

65. It's largely that they don't care if it fucks the Democratic Party, all the better if it does. This

is about ideology.

[Caliman73]

40. Please define common sense.

What is common sense?

I would like you to define common sense without anecdote or without saying what it is NOT.

A lot of people love using the term "common sense" as if everyone agrees to what "common sense" actually is.

Thanks

[SheltieLover]

7. Repukes need a group or principles to project hatred onto

Racists fearful of losing privilege.

[Thekaspervote]

11. I watched.. Typical Maher...not impressed.

[occupant]

12. Maher isn't for Pepsi either

Maher is losing it. If he is writing all his "Bits", New rules and the like, well it shows. If you will think back to all his shows last year and now this season, he is constantly playing with his nose. This is a tell, and I'm doubting its allergies. He's burning himself out on booze, and drugs. It is sad. He's rarely funny, insightful, or even right. Tired of him. Time to retire to Hawaii where he can spout his BS when the volcanos do...

[demosincebirth]

14. He is sooooo right!! It's hard to face the truth

[Dem4Life1102]

28. Name one democrat who has said

that looting is not violence?

[demosincebirth]

49. You picked one that eight billion people agree with.

[Dem4Life1102]

57. Not an answer

Maher claimed that democrats said looting is not violence? Name one who has.

[demosincebirth]

63. Ok, I have heard that said, but I don't know who said it...eom

[Dem4Life1102]

64. Yes it's been said by republicans

falsely claiming democrats said it. It’s a bs right wing talking point that Maher parroted along with several others.

[Celerity]

125. It was not a elected Democratic party member, it was some

street protestor in Chicago (I am sure others (but ZERO elected Dems) too have said it, but this woman was all over the MSM snd her saying this live was used by the Rethugs in some adverts to hammer us, adverts I saw many times on a stream for US MSM news and also an NBCSN stream of some EPL football (what you call soccer) games.

If we cannot find a way to easily, quickly, and effectively distance ourselves from extremists like that we are well fucked. We are not the party of anarchy.

[beaglelover]

18. Totally agree. That New Rules segment was hard to hear

But it was 💯 truth.

[Dem4Life1102]

29. What democrats have said

looting is not violence?

[Yavin4]

34. Thinking that every election loss is always our fault or something we said or didn't say leads to...

weakness.

Ask yourself this. Have you ever seen a Republican after a loss for president or congress ever say, "hey we have to do a better job of reaching out to African Americans" or "hey, maybe that thing Trump said about 'good people on both sides' was a wrong thing to say and that turned out voters in Atlanta and Philly"?

Have you seen any Republican say this? No? Ask yourself why.

[ancianita]

41. THIS. And then when we win it's the same damn criticism. "Oh noes! Dems almost lost!"

Americans know the party that gets things done while the the wastrel party mocks and obstructs like drunken frat boys.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

22. Fuck Bill Maher.

[KT2000]

51. +1

Nothing is ever good enough - a perpetual critic.

[Ishoutandscream2]

69. Seconded. He's so full of himself

And when he doesn’t get a laugh or agreement from his audience, he pouts like momma’s little darling. And his standup sucks, too.

[MrsCoffee]

114. This is the only acceptable answer.

Thank you.

[Dem4Life1102]

23. It was filled with right wing talking points

he hardly nailed it.

[mahina]

35. Is it this part?

I don’t have HBO, don’t watch Bill Maher, don’t know if this clip was the end though he does say “finally”, so perhaps.

[LessAspin]

37. Bill Maher and Joe Rogan veer into Alex Jones' lane..

Not surprising since Maher has frequently veered in that direction over the years.

In the end those guys are all just loudmouth self-promoters that troll for a living.

[doc03]

38. That will piss off many but in this case he is totally

right.

[In It to Win It]

60. I don't think he's right entirely. I thought it assumed that we're the party of every single

“woke” issue like Mario Lopez having to apologize for something he said... because that’s all of a sudden apart of the Democratic platform (kidding).

There are “woke” issues that deserve actual attention but it plants this seed that if the party takes one “woke” issue, it takes them all or at least it is presumed by people who aren’t Democrats that the party will. Therefore, we get tagged as the “woke” party and they will tag every unpopular “woke” issue to Democrats.

[Dem4Life1102]

77. Totally right?

What democrats have said looting is not violence?

[Thekaspervote]

42. When Maher has ppl the likes of Steve bannon on and gives him a platform to spout lies

That should be a complete disconnect for every dem!!

[In It to Win It]

44. I saw it. I thought it ignored other factors.

[Drunken Irishman]

46. In typical Maher fashion, he goes a little overboard, but the totality of his point is correct.

Democrats need to pull back from being so woke. I think that's one area Biden was able to excel - he's opposite of woke. In fact, Biden LISTENS and I think that's we need to push: listening to the concerns instead of shutting down any and all debate.

But I think what hurt the most was the rioting and the looting. I keep going back to Kenosha County, Wisconsin. Biden actually did worse than Hillary in 2016 there, in a county that Obama won by twelve points in 2012, 18 points in 2008 - and a county Kerry carried in 2004 by about 5.5 points in 2004.

Biden lost it by about three-points. Four years ago, Hillary lost it by less than a point.

What happened in Kenosha this summer?

[demosincebirth]

59. You are correct. "It's hard to crack a hard skull."

[Music Man]

54. Bill is right on this.

There are some bullshit takes many of us on the left take about such things.

Tap-dancing about whether looting is wrong or not is a great example. Yes, Joe Biden condemns it, but MANY people on our side don't, and that's what people see in their social media feeds. Strawman arguments like, "Property is more valuable than life. I guess you don't care about the black people who have been murdered." Or being academic, "It's an emotional response." Or the changing stories: First, it's "They are outside agitators trying to make BLM look bad." Then, "It's only a small percentage of protestors." Then, "Well, it's an understandable reaction to a legacy of racism." Then finally, the tepid, "Well, Joe Biden has condemned it."

Why is it so hard to say "These cops should be arrested and the system overhauled, but looting is wrong, plain and simple."

There is a Trump cult. I also fear there is a cult about being woke, because offering the slightest disagreement about issues of race and gender on social media means you will get absolutely hounded and shamed. As Maher said, people are walking on egg shells, and feel it's better at a certain point to just stay silent.

It would behoove Democrats to take Bill's message to heart. I dread when Fridays come around, because I see the barrage of "Bill is terrible. Who watches him anymore?" But perhaps that reaction is emblematic of the problem Bill's talking about in the first place.

[dhill926]

67. Damn good post MM.

it's not all black and white so to speak. And of course, if you're not in power, you can't fix anything. Read the room. Then win. Then fix.

[Dem4Life1102]

74. What democrats defended looting?

Name them please.

[Music Man]

80. I'm not talking about mainstream Democratic politicians, necessarily.

But they're here on DU and amongst our friends on social media. I mean, none of us should pretend large numbers of liberals weren't defending looting, using the reasons I mentioned above: "Life is more important than property" and "It's an expression of rage after centuries of racism."

You're telling me you *haven't* seen those sentiments expressed by liberals?

[Dem4Life1102]

95. But Maher was talking about the Democratic Party

and mainstream democratic politicians. He was parroting right wing talking points used to demonize democratic candidates. And the only individuals he even mentioned directly were Mario Lopez and Anne Hathaway who are not Democratic Party officials.

[BlueIdaho]

112. X1000

I’m not interested in carrying water for the Republican Party no matter who tries to dress it up this gaslighting up as a failing of the Democratic Party. As for that smug self important little Libertarian - he can go fuck himself.

[shrike3]

116. For me, it wasn't defending looting, but observing that white people seem to care more about

property damage than they do about black lives. Way it's always been, unfortunately. And there's nothing wrong with saying it was a small portion of protesters, or that there were outside agitators involved with some incidents.

The worst thing about looting is that it becomes all about that, in the end, and supersedes what protesting was trying to do in the first place. I guess my attitude is, looting is wrong (whether it happens during a protest or after a natural disaster) but there's also nothing wrong in acknowledging why they happen.

You know, a friend of mine, who isn't African-American, said, "I can understand why there's looting. Protest peacefully and nothing happens. Might as well get violent. At least then somebody pays attention."

[Caliman73]

55. One thing that Maher consistently does is conflate, the culture war narrative.

He loves to say that "Democrats do this...." or "Liberals do this...."

He said himself in the segment, "You get the constant drip from the media of stories...." implying that anecdote is reality. I would agree, that it becomes reality when that is the story that the media is constantly portraying. The media constantly portrays the controversy of what some person, or group says about what some celebrity said or did and apologized for. That is not a "liberal" plank. The liberal plank is to respect differences and treat people with dignity. The media, to sell ad space relies on the most incendiary or controversial points to pull in viewers. Naturally, that becomes the norm for people who consume that media.

Maher relies on the same fake outrage to sell his point of view as if it is somehow rational. He provides the anecdotal extreme examples and rails against them. It is exactly the thing that the right does. Bernie Sanders advocates for Medicare for all and so Joe Biden is a socialist and controlled by the radical left.

72 million people voted for Trump for a variety of reasons. The most likely reasons are that they agree with Trump's disgusting attitudes towards others, or that they bought into all the rightwing bullshit about what "liberals" are about that has been fed to them by right wing media and extended by corporate, mainstream media in their effort to be "fair and balanced".

[empedocles]

62. Some people here like to say this and that about Maher. We could all do that.

However, Maher's big argument, is that 'Defund' was not a 'common sense' argument in this Election.

['Some', seems to have clearly lost that one]

[In It to Win It]

70. I won't pretend to know what all Democrats have said or not said on the 'Defund' issue

I haven’t heard any Democrats say that defunding the police that’s on the table or in the party platform or something that any Democrat is running on.

Just so that I’m clear, is the point that we didn’t do enough to announce that we don’t support defunding the police?

[Caliman73]

88. That was one part of his argument. Which you obviously agree with since you keep harping on it.

I already said, TWICE, that Defund is a bad slogan.

The rest of Maher's argument is shit, since he doesn't define what "common sense" even means. Basically he was actually arguing that the media portrays the most extreme elements of "liberal" thought and that is ratcheted up to "crazy" by right wing media, and that narrative is what we need to live by.

We need to not try to create progress toward a better society that is more inclusive and less about punishment and scarcity because certain elements don't like it.

[edhopper]

61. He is right

He is not talking about 80% to 90% of the Trump voters, but the Suburbanites and women who are more reachable. This shit lost us a lot of those votes. Theones who voted Dem in 2018 but went back to Trump this year.

[pansypoo53219]

66. my brother is a republicam. he hates trump, but voted for him, because RRRRRRR. BUT!

bill is right on this silly left shit. the loony left stuff. we need to be main street. dump wall street too.

[Azathoth]

72. The woke stuff and cancel culture isn't the whole story, but it's part of it

Last edited Sun Nov 15, 2020, 10:12 PM - Edit history (1)

There's a lot of deeply radical and divisive and illiberal stuff being smuggled into the mainstream left under the cloak of "diversity and social justice", from defunding the police to the idea that there is no such thing as biological sex.

This is coinciding with the replacement of the free-speech-and-thought libertarian left of George Carlin's day by an increasingly authoritarian and conformist left where words are violence and everyone is walking on eggshells to avoid being the target of capricious mass bullying.

This is a talking point that is being served to the right on a silver platter.

[misanthrope]

120. When you see the Hegelian dialectic being dispensed of on college campuses

it strikes at the heart of what many cherish most about the post-Renaissance world. I have no issue with those I disagree with being given the opportunity to speak on campuses. But the best way to present it is in the form of thesis and antithesis with audience being given the choice to find their own synthesis.

In today's climate, James Baldwin would have never had opportunity to publicly riddle William F. Buckley's stances. Too many would have raised hell about Buckley being allowed the chance to even speak his mind.

[quickesst]

73. Bill Maher is right....

The Democratic Party is 1000 times better than our counterparts, but they are not infallible. When someone like Bill Maher points this out, one can be sure to hear from those who cannot accept constructive criticism. By ignoring, or bringing irrational arguments against constructive criticism, the problem continues to compound itself, and when the inevitable happens such as losing those congressional seats, they are left with scratching their head and wondering what happened, but you can be sure of one thing. It won't be their fault.

[ansible]

86. It's nuts how so many here are incapable of hearing criticism at all

It's getting to the point of irrationality now, refusing to admit there are problems is how people like Trump win.

[quickesst]

118. you are correct of course

Time for some folks to remove the blinders.

[qdouble]

133. It's not valid criticism though

Bill Maher is essentially blaming Democrats for right wing propaganda campaigns. It's dumb.

[Blecht]

78. That's the same stuff he's been selling

He's too blind to see that he's joining the right's framing of all those issues.

The framing is the problem.

And he's a part of it -- with a pretty big platform.

[Dem4Life1102]

79. Maher loves parroting right wing talking points

[andym]

84. 73 MIllion + right now

Probably will end up at ~75M, that's a lot of misguided folks.

[Progressive Jones]

103. Maher was right on a couple of points. nt

[JI7]

130. I wouldn't describe it as misguided

[moondust]

85. Maher likes to attack Democrats

for trying to create a civil society of mutual respect and domestic tranquility--much as it is written here:

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Fuck Bill Maher and his misguided "analyses."

[Dem4Life1102]

96. He also likes right wing talking points

[MustLoveBeagles]

87. I always overestimate the intelligence of electorate and always wind up disappointed

I won't be making that mistake ever again. The fact is is that most americans aren't as politically engaged as we are. It makes them susceptible to RW propaganda because righties scream the loudest and the squeaky wheels get the grease. We have 72+ million people in this country that saw Fat Donnie's mass murder through incompetence and decided they wanted more of it. We saw enabling Republican's at the federal, state and local level kiss his behind and hinder anything the Dem's tried to help keep people safe and were then rewarded on election day. Leaving aside the mistakes the Dem's made that is seriously fucked up and shows how sick this country has become. I have no desire anymore to reach out and try to understand these ignorant bumpkins when they aren't required to do a damn thing in return. I've gotten tired of pulling back a bloody stump when I've offered that hand in friendship. NO MORE. We have a significant chunk of the electorate that refuses to pull their heads out of their asses and stop listening to the fear mongers. They also refuse to hold the GOP accountable no matter what they say or do. It's gotten so old.

For sure some dem's made mistakes this cycle like running their mouths when they should've shut the hell up (looking at you Bernie and AOC) and that cost us votes. I don't think the Democrats are perfect or above critism and I think soul searching is definitely in order. Bill is right on a few points but he's also being far too harsh (imo) and ignoring the other factors that I mentioned above that also contributed to this. Forgive my rambling but I had to get this off my chest.


Eta: I like Bernie and AOC but some of the things they were saying weren't helpful.

[BannonsLiver]

92. He's mostly right

I’d also add the people saying name one Dem politician that condoned looting. That’s not really the point. Politicians aren’t the only people who drive public opinion. People on Twitter and in their interactions with other people in their lives also drive public opinion.

There’s also this urge to tackle things that really don’t matter. We have people wanting to cancel baby Yoda because it ate some frog eggs in one episode. Because it’s genocide.

[muriel_volestrangler]

98. And the Republicans have QAnon supporting *representatives*

No, this is nonsense. You can't say that People on Twitter (who rarely even say "I'm a Democrat&quot are the equivalent of a party's politicians in defining what a party is.

Life is not like that. "We" don't "have" the people obsessing about a TV show.

[Dem4Life1102]

101. No that is the point

It’s a right wing talking point used to demonize democrats. Democratic candidates and party officials are not responsible for what some idiot says on Twitter. And most of them attack the Democratic Party as much if not more than they attack the GOP.

[BannonsLiver]

108. actually it is the point

Your mistake is believing only politicians drive public opinion. That’s simply not the case. You’re making a fairness argument, which is at this stage is the same as fighting the last war.

[Dem4Life1102]

122. But Maher didn't make that distinction

He was blasting the Democratic Party based on the actions of others.

[qdouble]

134. It's the logic of an abuser

Republicans do what Bill Maher does all the time. "Democrats forced me to be this vile" is not valid, it's bunk.

[BannonsLiver]

146. Utterly nonsensical.

Zero to do with the thread topic.

[shrike3]

117. Maher, and others, forget that there has been a demonization of Democrats since I was young

Talk radio, Fox News. He seems to want to blame it all on us when the blame also falls on others.

[dsc]

100. To take one example the hockey player he mentioned

bullied a black developmentally handicapped kid into licking a toilet seat among other things, was part of a gang of white kids who broke a different kid's arm, and when he was told to apologize to the first kid by a court never bothered to do so. Had he apologized I would be all for letting him play but since he didn't then and still hasn't to this day, I am far less indulgent of that idea. I am pretty sure that if he were a black kid who had done this stuff he would have been tossed into JuVee

[Azathoth]

119. It doesn't appear he was ordered to apologize

He was ordered to write a letter of apology, which he did, apparently. The other kids involved took the extra step of apologizing in person.

The story of his behavior is deeply disturbing. However, he got convicted and sentenced as a minor and the mark is on his record, which he had to explain to every team that considered him, so it's not as if there were no repercussions for him. And let's face it, he's not the first athlete, white or black, who got a pass because of his physical talent.

Maher's point, though, is that most people don't spend 15 minutes googling to get the minute details of every story to verify if it's justified. All they see is a young man being cancelled because of a bullying incident when he was in middle school, and they roll their eyes because this fits with an increasingly common phenomenon of leftist (or pseudo-leftist) activists digging up shit from people's distant pasts to cancel their lives and careers with faux outrage on twitter.

People are getting tired of this. It's already been 2-3 years since James Gunn got cancelled for tweeting obvious jokes a decade before -- and even then, people were bemoaning it as yet another excess of cancel culture. This stuff can only go on so long before there's real mainstream backlash.

[dsc]

136. so under your logic if he had killed the kid, raped the kid,

we also couldn't say he can't be a hockey player since people can't be expected to take the 15 minutes to look at the case before reacting. But, of course, if he were black none of that would apply since we never seem to have to look and see the facts before we blame them.

[Yavin4]

145. May I ask you a question?

What do these incidents, the Hockey player, James Gunn being fired, have anything whatsoever with the Democratic party and its policy agenda?

Do you want Nancy Pelosi to pass a House resolution comdeming James Gunn being fired?

What policy prescription do you want the Democrats to pass to combat cancel culture?

[Klaralven]

109. Democrats need to remember that they are both a ruling party and an opposition party

They are a ruling party now in Washington and in lots of Blue states. They are an opposition party in lots of Red and Purple states.

The ruling party Democrats in safe states and safe jurisdictions should not take positions that make life unnecessarily difficult for the opposition party democrats in competitive states and competitive jurisdictions.

[lindysalsagal]

110. The "strategy vs morality" argument will always be there. One is pointless w/o the other.

But no matter where dems are on policy, it certainly would help if our public voices were unified in front of the public.

It's one thing to have some members with strong agendas like defund the police, and take the guns, and free college tuition. It's quite another thing to see those on politician's websites and hear them from politician's reps, when they're not exactly at the top of the entire party's agenda.

This is why there is party leadership, and duking it out in front of the press is irresponsible. The gop does better than us when they control their message.

I think our side could do well to remember that there is only one captain of a ship, or it goes in circles.

We should air all points of view amongst ourselves, but keep the public message streamlined for success.

We also have to remember that in a government based on compromise, no one ever gets everything they want, and we have to grow the hell up about that.

[Paladin]

111. If Maher isn't making millions off splitting up Democrats, he ought to be.

This thread is just the latest example.

[betsuni]

129. He donated 3 million dollars to get Democrats elected, Obama's reelection campaign and 2018

midterms. Money well spent. He supports Democrats.

[Paladin]

137. He's done 10 times that, in damage to our party.

He'll be another Limbaugh before he's done.

[meadowlander]

121. It's his usual schtick and I think it's too easy.

The problem isn't that Democrats are too easy to pin with cancel culture and defund the police. The problem is too many Republicans think those shiny object identity-politics "issues" are more important than kids in cages, the looming climate catastrophe, putting on a damn mask and doing something about income inequality.

The solution isn't "never say anything that Republicans can twist into more culture war bullshit." They've created an entire industry of propagandists out there trying to convince "average people" that "liberals hate America and want to steal Christmas and burn the flag all day".

It doesn't matter what liberals say and do. It's that 40% of the country has completely lost all sense of perspective because cherry picking absurd examples of liberal snow-flakism makes money. Not unlike what Bill Maher is doing in this rant btw.

[Jspur]

126. I would say focus more on economic issues that can help

people. That's what the democrats should do. I think one of Biden's campaign pledges was to raise minimum wage to 15 dollars but we never really heard him openly speak about it. If he did he could have probably gotten even more voters.

[JI7]

131. No , everything that has happened in the last few years and even for last decades shows this isn't

true.

[betsuni]

132. Yes, not about policy.

[muriel_volestrangler]

128. Good news, everyone! Scott Atlas has told the people to "rise up", so the Republicans have lost.

I mean, that's Maher's message, isn't it? The moment one person says something stupid that looks like it's against the status quo, their entire side is painted with the same brush.

So, when Scott Atlas, the president's specially-appointed 'expert', tells Michigan to "rise up" against Gov. Whitmer, then the Republicans are the party of sedition, in the eyes of centrist voters. Yes?

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100214560990

We can forget what Maher thinks about Democrats, because this is, objectively, far more serious.

[Yavin4]

141. Exactly. Republicans can get away with the craziest bullshit and never have to pay a price

politically, but it's Nancy Pelosi's fault that Louis CK no longer has a show on FX.

[AmericanCanuck]

138. Bill is absolutely correct

We need to quickly get to common sense - like President Obama said.

[muriel_volestrangler]

144. What bit of "common sense" are you thinking of?

Here are the first 3 topics I find in which Obama called for "common sense":

Coronavirus precautions: https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/04/politics/barack-obama-coronavirus-precautions/index.html Obviously, the common sense he means are what Democrats are already in favour of, and a lot of unhinged Republicans, right up to their president, are against.

Gun safety laws: https://edition.cnn.com/2018/02/15/politics/obama-florida-shooting/index.html Again, he is advocating what is an existing Democratic position. The Republicans have blocked "common sense" gun laws for decades.

Immigration reform: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-21251085 Once more, this is a long-term Democratic policy, and the Republicans are the ones foaming at the mouth about Muslims, and "rapists and murderers" being "sent" into the USA. And breaking up families, locking up children, and endlessly chasing undocumented immigrants living model lives. And trying to block DACA, even if they have to do it illegally.

So, by Obama's common sense reckoning: Democrats 3, Republicans 0.

What did you hear Obama say?

[Johnny2X2X]

139. I agree with Bill on this

Dems have let control of the politically correct narrative go. The whole Safe Space, coddled image has too much truth to it.

[Yavin4]

140. Do you really think if that were to happen that Democrats would win the White working class?

Really?

Also, where is this same scolding for the outright racist shit that Trump himself said? Does anyone ever say, "hey, maybe Trump's embrace of White supremacists hurt him in cities like Atlanta and Philly"?

[Johnny2X2X]

142. Yes, Dems should be winning white working class voters every election

The Democratic platform is full of polices that white working class people would love, but they can't see past what they see as crazy.

And let Reps figure out their problems with White Supremacy, not our issue to solve for them.

Democrats need to be so inclusive that they can't just quietly support a cause, they have to be vocal about it. There are winning and losing issues, you have to recognize the losing ones and avoid talking about them. Doesn't mean we change what we support, just that we pick our battles in public better.

[Yavin4]

143. This is where you and Maher are dead wrong.

The White working class has an irrational hatred of Liberals and Democrats in general, and NOTHING is going to change that. No amount of policy positions would change that.

Democrats have to develop political strategies knowing this simple fact and grow a base of support around it.