General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsHow can anyone let this slide?
The threats, the anxiety, the stress, the fears, the deaths?
Everyone that is complicit in this crime against our nation must be held accountable.
We cannot sweep it under the rug and forget about.
It must be pursued.
Some should go to jail.
SheltieLover
(57,073 posts)No two ways about it!
raffishtenant
(9 posts)I respectfully disagree. Civil asset forfeiture is a massive stain on our justice system, one which I refuse to grant any additional (un)constitutional legitimacy...not even in the case of a bunch of evil authoritarian scumbags who admittedly deserve it more than most.
SheltieLover
(57,073 posts)Not for the hell of it.
Repayment for all those fancy vacations, overcharging Secret Service for rooms at dump proerties, etc.
niyad
(113,552 posts)raffishtenant
(9 posts)Eyeball_Kid
(7,434 posts)raffishtenant
(9 posts)Just don't want to see forfeiture used as a back door when criminal prosecution isn't successful.
we can do it
(12,193 posts)onetexan
(13,058 posts)That +jail time.
we can do it
(12,193 posts)Grasswire2
(13,571 posts)democrank
(11,103 posts)If Trump isnt held accountable for his crimes, not only will there be another Trump, but our nations basic principles will mean nothing. Nothing.
Demsrule86
(68,667 posts)let The AG and states handle Trump and those who broke the law...wouldn't be surprised if some go to jail in the Senate for insider trading. But I digress. You have to understand we hate Trump and believe everyone will agree with us if the truth is revealed. I don't think that is the case. Some will be with him forever. And Trump is slippery. It may very well be that he has managed to skirt the law. I remember Cohen saying Trump never directly ordered anything. Now he could end up in real trouble in New York and I sincerely hope he does. But I am not willing to sacrifice our chance to govern and pass important policy to go after Trump in a way that helps the Republicans. Trump is in his 70's, time will take care of him. And I am a person of faith and believe he will pay an eternal price for his crimes. Look at the food lines. How do you suppose those folks will feel if we spend our time fighting with Trump? What is the saying? Revenge is best served cold.
RVN VET71
(2,697 posts)Must do both.
Let DOJ investigate and if there are found indictable offenses, let justice take its course. If none are found, let Trump live to see others in his administration -- and family -- suffer consequences of their less-protected collaboration with his crimes. The Federal Government need not be confined to one set of actions when there is so much to be done, so much rebuilding of a government destroyed by a con-man. Fixing Justice is a great place to start.
Faith is strong medicine, but I think a deity would prefer we not leave it all up to him or her to take action.
Demsrule86
(68,667 posts)What I caution against is endless hearings in the House. People are starving and losing their homes...in the winter and there are few shelters. That must be our priority.
LeftInTX
(25,551 posts)If we can't successfully convict cops for killing people, even if it's caught on camera, how are we gonna convict Trump of anything?
At the most, he will probably end up paying a huge fine. It will probably a be settlement of sorts....Didn't he pay huge fines for discrimination lawsuits in the past?
quakerboy
(13,921 posts)I think it was under BushII, but could have been even earlier, the senate passed rules that allowed themselves to partake in insider trading.
Trumps eternal price is irrelevant. I care about not having this happen again in 4 years. We let BushII and all of his cronys get away scott free, and that resulted in Trump. What happens if we do the same thing again? What is worse than trump? I do NOT want to find out.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Ferrets are Cool
(21,110 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Just wanted to know about whom.
kentuck
(111,110 posts)I agree.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Why is that?
kentuck
(111,110 posts)...are you certain the Democrats won't need a little prodding? Or whatever they decide is OK with you?
Demsrule86
(68,667 posts)we had six years under Obama where nothing was achieved. Democrats should have no hand in prosecuting anyone. Leave it to Justice and move on with sending help to the people. If Biden is attacked on the right and the left, he is toast, we lose the house and a trumper could get in in 24. Either we support Democrats fully or we continue to lose and the GOP is permitted by us to destroy the country.
kentuck
(111,110 posts)...and get to the facts about what has happened, then the writing is on the wall. Democrats will not have the support of a majority and they will lose the next election, in my opinion.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Trump accountable unless he's pressured to do otherwise?
You seem to have a very dim view of the Democratic President-elect.
Any specific reason?
paleotn
(17,956 posts)Not in the least. One of the many reasons I support Joe Biden. But you've got to remember, many of us have a real sore spot for what happened after the financial melt down. A whole crew of well connected suits should have gone to jail for what they did. But they didn't. Normal people got crushed, lost their jobs, their homes. Wall Street types walked away without even a slap on the wrist.
kentuck
(111,110 posts)...about certain issues, especially those related to Russia.
However, on a positive side of hope, Joe Biden was on the Foreign Relations Committee for several years when he was in the Senate. He is very experienced in foreign relations.
But, I do not understand this unquestioning loyalty to politicians, not Donald Trump or anyone else. I do not buy that stuff, "My side is always right". Sometimes we all make mistakes.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Got it.
The statement that anyone who doesn't doubt Biden's motives or ability like you do is displaying "unquestioning loyalty," to any and all Democratic policians is a false dichotomy.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/false_dichotomy
You're welcome.
Not sure how you got THAT from what I wrote, but hey...whatever.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Not being a lawyer, I don't know what criminal charges specifically were applicable to specific CEOs under the regulations at the time.
Jeffrey Skilling was convicted in a criminal trial of conspiracy, securities fraud, insider trading and lying to auditors, so I assume if a case could be made against others, it would have been. Ken Lay was also found guilty of fraud and conspiracy, but died of heart failure shortly after the trial.
As I've said several times in this thread, Biden CANNOT ethically or legally be involved, or appear to weigh in at ALL concerning any investigation of Trump. Biden should not be seen as choosing an AG based on their plan to prosecute Trump, because independent prosecutors have to handle it, We have to avoid even the appearance that this is a political prosecution of a political adversary, rather than criminal prosecution, however much people demand it of Biden to satisfy their feelings of retribution for Trump doing exactly that.
As much as we would like to see Biden rip Trump apart publicly and demanding LOCK HIM UP, to do so would be doing what Trump did to intimidate anyone who crossed him, and should be investigated for. Disappointing as it may be for some, that is how it has to go down. Some who have ill feelings about Biden winning the primary will likely grab onto this as rationalization for their lingering anger, and see it as validation for their support for another candidate, sadly.
I do think one reason that Biden is delaying naming the AG is to lessen the time for discussion and questioning if they will open an investigation into Trump, and trigger Trump into pardoning his cronies preemptively, and this demand to see Trump bleed legally is one reason why.
Do I want Trump to die in prison? OH Yes. Do I think that I am owed that unlikely outcome by Democrats in order for me to support Democrats? Unlike some I've heard on DU, no.
Do I want the main activity of the next congress to be pursuing multiple investigations against the previous administration? No, particularly since there are dozens of legal challenges against him waiting in the courts at the state level that could possibly bleed him drier than any congressional investigation could.
I expect Congress and the Biden administration to hit the ground trying staunch the hemmoraging of our institutions and do the work of cleaning up the damage, even if it's not going to sate my fantasy of him getting the full Mussolini.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Care to share why?
N_E_1 for Tennis
(9,775 posts)Along with a guilty verdict that would incur jail time I believe the death penalty should on the table for some.
Demsrule86
(68,667 posts)N_E_1 for Tennis
(9,775 posts)But without naming names there are some in this administration that have direct responsibility for the deaths of hundreds of thousands. It kinda has changed my stance.
KS Toronado
(17,317 posts)Be interesting to watch them reverse course if King Hair-Doo was looking at the chair.
Demsrule86
(68,667 posts)electric_blue68
(14,933 posts)there are people's actions that try my ethics.
😠🤬🤬🤬😠
I totally get why someone might change their mind under these heinuous events.
But hopefully very long prison sentences will fit the bill! And not in a "Country Club" prison either.
Still, not being able to more or less come and go as you please, and being (for many people) under a mostly monotonous routine routine.... gah!
onetexan
(13,058 posts)spineless repugs won't do anything.
kentuck
(111,110 posts)In the least divisive and offensive way possible. But it has to be done.
Demsrule86
(68,667 posts)He has been skirting the law his entire life. Our best chance is in New York with the tax charges and the Trump foundation. And that frees up Biden for sending help to the people if we get the Senate or beating up on the Republicans senate if we don't. The AG can investigate and should. But you have to accept that there may not be enough evidence to convict him of anything. And he will no doubt be pardoned one way or the other which is why New York is our best chance.
Eyeball_Kid
(7,434 posts)Mueller identified several instances of Obstruction of Justice.
And then there's the Emoluments Clause that's never been addressed.
And what about "criminally negligent homicide", otherwise called his COVID-19 policy?
OH. Let's not forget the kidnapping of the children of refugees.
..And his collaborating with the evil Prince in Saudi Arabia who killed Khashoggi? What about Kushner's covering up of MBS's plot to murder him?
And, as you mentioned, Trump's tax cheating will offer a rich resource for more time in the courtroom.
Demsrule86
(68,667 posts)be criminally negligent homicide charges although he deserves it. The same is true for the children...that was policy and won't be charged criminally...horrible policy. Saudi Arabia is unlikely to result in prosecution...you can bet while Trump was involved, we will never prove it. Tax cheating at the state level, Trump business in New York and whatever cases the new AG deems prosecuteable are what we are looking at. Biden should not involve himself nor should congress. We are in big trouble as a country. Send help to Americans...nothing else matters now.
summer_in_TX
(2,752 posts)I haven't heard of pre-emptive pardons.
Plus pardons mean guilt. Trump wants to run in 2024. Will he do something that essentially admits guilt?
Demsrule86
(68,667 posts)RVN VET71
(2,697 posts)Trump may walk free of federal indictments, but his lackeys and children need not.
I would like to see, for example, the dubious commutation Trump gave Roger Stone revoked because he has continued lying and fomenting disinformation afterwards.
And there's Wilbur, and Pompeo, and, of course, Fatboy Barr, plus Trump's eldest and second sons and his felonious daughter (Ivanka, of course. I don't think Tiffany was drawn deeply enough into the shit show to have actually committed a crime -- and I do think her appearance late in the game had something to do with money.)
Demsrule86
(68,667 posts)electric_blue68
(14,933 posts)are waiting with bated breath for AG James to get going with her case(s).
Demsrule86
(68,667 posts)Let it go. New York and the AG should handle this.
Demsrule86
(68,667 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)You keep avoiding answering that question while you keep posting your pessimism that the Democratic President-elect will appoint an AG that will investigate wrongdoing.
Do you have some intel on the inability or unwillingness of President-elect to do this that the rest of us don't?
Please share.
mdbl
(4,973 posts)The spineless are always among us.
Demsrule86
(68,667 posts)of course.
OhioTim
(259 posts)brooklynite
(94,727 posts)kentuck
(111,110 posts)It's all political, including all the charges from the Mueller Report.
SDNY has nothing. He is clean as a whistle.
brooklynite
(94,727 posts)...don't have an actual Statutory basis. And I'm not sure that the the pre-Presidential charges he's likely to face are the type that result in jail time.
kentuck
(111,110 posts)What would it be called?
brooklynite
(94,727 posts)Seriously, think through your statement. Trump has gone to Court to overturn election results. Does he have a legal right to do so? Yes. He's asked Legislators to overturn the vote certifications in their States. Do States have the legal right to determine how to allocate their Electors? Yes. Has Trump done anything outside of the legal process? No.
I not arguing the ETHICS or APPROPRIATENESS of his behavior. But we don't apply the legal process on the basis of "we know what he's trying to do". We apply it on the basis of specific laws and factual evidence.
kentuck
(111,110 posts)What part does "intent" play in a criminal charge?
brooklynite
(94,727 posts)People tend to forget one MASSIVE point about the Constitution: it DOES NOT grant citizens the right to vote for President.
kentuck
(111,110 posts)Or are we willing to overlook small "crimes" like obstruction of justice and suborning perjury? Why?
brooklynite
(94,727 posts)...tends to be blurry.
I'm willing to opine that whatever criminal charges Trump may face, they will NOT be the result of his tenure as President.
kentuck
(111,110 posts)...which continue to be concealed.
Just my opinion.
Demsrule86
(68,667 posts)it didn't matter a bit to the Senate or his supporters. Those who opined that the Senate would have to convict if the truth was revealed were wrong. The idea that if only we get the evidence out there, why they will realize what garbage Trump is. This is simply not true. We want to believe that what we think is what others think...and again that is not the case. You can make sure and should that every bit of evidence is released and it won't matter. Consider Bob Woodward...who taped Trump admitting he knew the virus was transmittable by air and very dangerous even though Trump lied for months. It didn't change one Trumper mind.
I am exhausted with the Trump show. My husband and I spent almost a year unemployed before he got a job. I watch my neighbors going hungry in Ohio and becoming homeless with little help in terms of shelters or food-entire families could freeze and/or starve to death this year. The virus level is huge in Ohio too. I want to move on and get something done. Leave Trump to New York and the AG. Saving lives is way more important.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Why is that? I've asked several times, and you don't answer.
You have made pronouncements on how you expect that Democratic leaders, including Biden, will refuse do what is possible to investigate Trump, and you also seem to be absolutely sure of what charges are rock solid.
Demsrule86
(68,667 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)much more effectively, to boot.
But I am sure that the new AG will look into the matter and do what is possible, even if it's not raw meat for some who crave it.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Care to share why you think this?
Who is the 'we' you're referring to?
Because it's not any Democratic leaders I know.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)questionseverything
(9,658 posts)We will never know the true numbers affected because this administration deliberately didnt keep track of them
Then there are many cases of obstruction and perjury,plus breaking the emoluments clause
Heck if we can get a prosecutor to look at his calls with putin we might get a treason charge to stick
onetexan
(13,058 posts)gibraltar72
(7,511 posts)jaxexpat
(6,849 posts)we were so sure of on November 2nd will finally manifest itself on January 20th. There will be a howling for accountability from the general public. Can Democrats satisfy the public or will poorly framed excuses dominate justice? Milquetoast punditry cannot be allowed to claim the podium as people are passionately focusing on the singularity.
Democrats' have a duty to prosecute treason but its window of effectiveness is not infinite. Ultimately that's the question, effective vs impotent: the winner of this contest will determine the 2022 midterms. Democrats must climb the mountain of GOP corruption, defeating conservative judges and media bias with it's false narrative, then plant the victor's flag in the bodies at the top.
brooklynite
(94,727 posts)Activists will pressure the Administration for action, but most voters won't care about Trump's legal situation. They'll want Biden to focus on the bread and butter issues they care about, and not to be distracted by "politics".
jaxexpat
(6,849 posts)They'll be focused on the B & B issues. The DOJ, however, will set its own agenda.
I'm betting there are a lot of average folks who are outraged at GOP antics and want some payback. Trump has trodden over the "sacred" American concept of justice; That no self-important, loudmouthed, blowhard gets away with their public crimes.
When McConnell tries his stunts again the nasty calls to congresspersons will come from people they've never heard from before. For them, it's all about the road to 2022.
Ligyron
(7,639 posts)We can let her DOJ investigate and prosecute as needed.
Demsrule86
(68,667 posts)Demsrule86
(68,667 posts)New York for his tax crimes and Trump foundation crimes but we need to choose the American people over revenge fantasies.
hay rick
(7,639 posts)I prefer my revenge fantasies to the salty tears of the 70,000,000+ Americans who voted for the con.
Demsrule86
(68,667 posts)Justice can deal with Trump and the states also...New York and DC for example. We need to work on sending help to the American people. I have no idea what you mean with the revenge /salty tears thing. I want to save the house in 2022, it is in endangered and we need to win in red and/or purple states. I want to take the Senate now in GA or at least in 22 where the map is favorable...again red or purple states. I don't want thousands of Americans to starve or freeze to death this winter or die of Covid. Trump is way down on my list. He lost and that really hurt him in ways a normal person can't understand; he already faces court battles.
jaxexpat
(6,849 posts)Lines of citizens lined up for assistance as the weather gets colder or the perpetrators of the economic disruption walking away nose in the air, profits in their pockets? Which is the real problem? Which of the problems have a remedy?
One must understand that to remedy the needs of these lines of people, Democrats will need to persevere over the efforts of those that intentionally created those lines. The key to one is the key to both. No other path has any hope of progress toward relief. History records that a population with hungry bellies occurs alongside government ineffectuality, EVERY TIME.
It's broke, the government's broke and a few wrist slaps administered by "good people in high places" on unfeeling wrists will be an outrage in the face of so much suffering. The universal groan at so much injustice. Nothing in this world is ever completed, there is only the constant compass pointing to justice and those who follow it.
A pretense of misunderstanding these issues is simply a "liberal" version of the corporate lunch.
Demsrule86
(68,667 posts)the states. It is the humanitarian thing to do and also makes political sense. In that if we turn the next two to four years into and endless investigation of Trump and I don't doubt he deserves it... ET AL...we will lose both in 2022 and 2024.
jaxexpat
(6,849 posts)I see a real value in a determined effort toward indictment of every nefarious deed the GOP ever did. Broadcast in real time to the general population because it will be THE news every day. The AG should be able to do this simultaneously with regular crime control because knocking the wind out of the GOP is crime control. They're the force behind ALL organized crime and we all know it.
Texin
(2,597 posts)(And I don't use the term "escaped" lightly.) After months of gaslighting, abusive language, and physical abuse (judiciously meted out so as not to leave notable physical marks on my face, neck, hands, arms or any likely exposed areas of my person), I fled that situation. I was lucky to get out, frankly. And I was luckier that I could land safely without my abusive partner knowing where I was.
Sometimes, just getting out is enough. My physical and mental safety were all that mattered to me at that time, and I believe he was contemplating far worse for me than just domestic abuse, frankly. I never looked back or regretted leaving, even thought it meant I was leaving more than 50% equity in a house I had co-signed with him not two years before. I quit-claimed my share in order to be permanently shed of him. And I consider myself lucky.
Sometimes just seeing a situation come to an end is enough. I feel that way now with MAGATs and retrumplicans, though each and every one of them deserve richly to be punished to the fullest extent of the laws of this land. Just enough. I know others disagree. I do understand, and to some extent, while I feel the same way and believe it would be a good thing for them all to be prosecuted, convicted and sent down the river for the rest of their execrable lives, I would be satisfied with them just folding up their caravan and departing in the night like all sideshow grifters eventually do. Just go. Leave us in peace and not pieces.
COL Mustard
(5,922 posts)And sorry that you had to go through that. I hope you are doing well today.
I think the best punishment for most of those people you referenced is to just ignore them. Deny them the oxygen they so desperately need. They will eventually dry up and go away. (The politicians and their supporters, not the physical abusers you referenced.)
Demsrule86
(68,667 posts)LeftInTX
(25,551 posts)I'm sorry that you had to take such a financial loss to get out of that awful situation, but we see this time and time again.
Just seeing Trump lose is revenge to me. Not having to endure his reality show which is the POTUS is revenge..
Trump will fade into obscurity....He will try all sorts of come backs, but it isn't gonna work...Like Giuliani with dripping hair color...it's all gonna be shit show for Trump, once he's no longer in the WH.
DemoTex
(25,403 posts)Or its equivalent.
Demsrule86
(68,667 posts)liberalla
(9,260 posts)Each successive assault is more dangerous and damaging than the previous... as we have seen.
We know this. We've witnessed it. It's not speculative.
Accountability and punishment is necessary. It is required. We must demand it
Demsrule86
(68,667 posts)tried once. We should look at putting road blocks in their way. We need to look at the facts and if will realize that any prosecution should be left to the AG and the states-not Congress. Did you see the miles long lines for food in many places today? The huge increase in Covid cases and deaths. We have problems that must be dealt with now. Let's move forward.
BobTheSubgenius
(11,564 posts)And those who voted or otherwise supported, but not in an active role, should be ashamed. But they won't be.
dlk
(11,576 posts)They must feel the pain of accountability, otherwise they will assume our tacit approval and continually do worse.
Joinfortmill
(14,456 posts)tiptonic
(765 posts)Nuremberg (type) trials r in order here. Overseen by neutral country justices.
mtnsnake
(22,236 posts)When you say "We cannot sweep it under the rug and forget about" I don't know of anyone here or anyone else outside this forum who despises Trump wants to sweep it under the rug.
Skittles
(153,193 posts)remember all those people who went to jail for lying their way into a war? No?
Enoki33
(1,587 posts)of laws, or we are not. We have to also decide what we want to leave for the next generation, and ultimately the planet. Justice should indeed be blind, not dependent on political considerations.
kentuck
(111,110 posts)He only needs a strong Justice Dept that can keep the heat and the investigations on Donald Trump and his criminal connections for the remainder of his days.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)It appears you believe that you know better than anyone he appoints what is and isn't legally possible.
Are you a constitutional lawyer?
kentuck
(111,110 posts)I am hoping he does.
That's the best I got today. Sorry.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Got it.
Skittles
(153,193 posts)but I am not holding my breath
Catch2.2
(629 posts)There will be more Trumpism but worse! There can be no "We need to move past this". NO! Trump and his cronies need to be prosecuted!!!!
LiberalLovinLug
(14,176 posts)Despite Biden's recent overtures the other way. There are already charges that are waiting if they so choose. A clear obstruction of justice charge from the Mueller investigation, where Trump ordered his admin staff not to obey summons. The ONLY argument Barr made to not proceed with it was he was a sitting President. Those charges should now go forward.
As well as the other multiple charges like money laundering, fraud, tax evasion. I want him so embroiled in legal battles federally and State side, that he is too broke and too busy to be able to ever run again in 2024.
Seriously, step on his throat when you can. A serpent like that will just wiggle out of it if your not quick and lethal when opportunity arises.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)Four years, except for Ukraine.
Unless, hopefully Biden pursues???? Hope! hope! hope!
Blue Owl
(50,494 posts)ucrdem
(15,512 posts)and Biden himelf is an attorney, so when they find a bone, they'll howl. But they have to get in their and start digging and Trump has managed to keep them away from the boneyard even now, with promises of access maybe next week.
But justice will be served I have no doubt.
Response to kentuck (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Roisin Ni Fiachra
(2,574 posts)deliberately damaged our country. Murphy put our country in serious danger because of her devotion to Trump, and she needs to be held accountable.
DeJoy's deliberate sabotage of the USPS in order to disenfranchise voters and help get Trump elected is indisputable.
Is DeJoy still in the US, or has he already flown the coop?