I don't think universal stimulus checks are a good idea.

[edhopper]

Many people were never out of work or got a hit on their income during this pandemic.
Instead the money should go to people and small businesses who have been hurt,
Targeted checks to people who dearly need the help seem more sensible to me.

And the last round of PPE checks doled out by this corrupt Administration was the biggest theft in this countries history.
No corporate bailouts!

[onecaliberal]

1. Just because people were not out of work doesn't mean they don't need the money. I am not out of

work but everything costs more and I am having a hard time getting through the month with food.

[edhopper]

5. Means testing should be part of it.

I was just giving one example.

But people still making 6 figures who were never out of work shouldn't.

But let me ask, is your situation due to COVID, or our fucked up society were more and more can't make a living wage?

Not that you shouldn't get a check if they are givien.

[onecaliberal]

35. I don't make 6 figures. My husband is disabled and I am the only one working.

[edhopper]

36. You should definitely get one

And more!

[Demsrule86]

54. The first stimulus payment was means tested.

'The legislation will give single adults who reported adjusted gross income of $75,000 or less on their 2019 tax returns a one-time check for $1,200. Married couples who filed jointly will receive $2,400. Families will get an additional $500 for each child under 17.'

This is a GOP talking point and like most of what they say...not true.
https://www.aarp.org/politics-society/advocacy/info-2020/coronavirus-stimulus-checks.html

[Rorey]

8. Increased costs did impact most of us

Especially with the price gouging at the beginning of this thing.

[Heartstrings]

9. +1

[kysrsoze]

2. I agree it was a terrible idea. Funds should have been directed to those financially impacted.

Small business owners and people impacted by layoffs/furloughs were the only ones who should have been sent money. The more money sent to those who aren't suffering, the less there is for those who are.

[JonLP24]

77. Progressives tried to leverage more for lower income & small business

But they don't have the numbers and they were even ripped as sellouts by some parts of the progressive base even though Sanders got extended unemployment benefits in the deal.

The CARES Act had flaws but it did keep people out of poverty temporarily.

[Rorey]

3. I might agree in theory

The problem with this, I think, is that then we'd need some sort of system to determine who got that hit on their income. Honestly, I think more people took a hit in one way or another than didn't.

Case in point: Me. I found it necessary to spend a lot of money on things I didn't plan for, like items for my own personal protection (supplies to make masks, hand sanitizer, etc.) I also didn't plan on losing rental income because tenants couldn't work, and I'm sure I'm not going to recoup that.

And what about the family who was already on a tight budget, but didn't lose work, who found themselves in the position of having to buy individual laptops for each of their school age children?

I'm sure there are a lot more examples, but the point I'm trying to make is that if the money goes only to people who fall into a specific category, many others won't get help they truly need because there won't be a system in place for them to prove they should get help.

Besides that, one key word is "stimulus". It's not just to help people, it's to help the economy.

That's the way I see it, but it's only my opinion.

[Hermit-The-Prog]

10. Yep. 'Needs' testing would delay too much and cost too much.

Those who don't need it will still spend it and therefore stimulate the economy and help those who need more.

[edhopper]

11. I didn't mean to only have work as a criteria

But people with wealth and income should be excluded.

Instead, your tenants should be helped with the rent.

[Rorey]

20. Too much red tape

I don't think the cumbersome system is going to get around to helping people with rent. In the meantime, I took hits that I could ill afford to take. There are a lot of small-time landlords in the same position as I'm in. My budget is extremely tight as it is. If I don't get paid, my bills don't get paid.

I do agree with some of what you're saying. There was a lot of abuse, by the same big corporations who have been raking this nation over the coals for a long time.

The first round of stimulus payments were income based, and I actually think that as far as what went to individuals, it was the best way to do it.

[exboyfil]

4. I agree with you

It seems we could do a bit better at needs testing on these checks.

[mr_lebowski]

6. How do you figure out who fits your criteria?

Just curious the mechanism for calculating 'need level' of 300M people when it needs done in an urgent fashion?

[edhopper]

12. Maybe eliminate certain groups

Like 6 figure income and still working.
Assests over 5 million dollars.
Things like that.

[csziggy]

43. Maybe now that the checks are history we should tax people over a certain income for them

Say if your income after deductions and other items is over a specific amount, tax the higher income people for it. The George W. Bush "stimulus" checks were sort of like that - you got taxed for them later.

[mr_lebowski]

56. That sounds much more practical as the processes for dealing with taxation in bulk is already there

Good idea!

[csziggy]

59. I really didn't need the money so I gave it away

A lot to the Biden campaign, some to the SPLC, CREW, ACLU, local food bank, Planned Parenthood, and other organizations.

But I wouldn't mind at all having to pay taxes on it so that people that need the help can get more assistance!

[pat_k]

7. They can pave the way to the idea of basic income. That makes them a good thing.

Last edited Thu Dec 3, 2020, 07:43 PM - Edit history (1)

Or Thomas Piketty's universal inheritance.

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/03/pikettys-new-book-explores-how-economic-inequality-is-perpetuated/

[edhopper]

14. Too me

Using so much money to give everyone a check depletes it from other uses, like income and rent assurances.

[pat_k]

48. Targeted programs require enormous expenditures on administration.

Targeted programs require enormous expenditures on administration. Basic income does not. The "leveling" is through the tax system. If a high-income, high tax bracket person falls on hard times, they have the basic income to fall back on. When they aren't making money, they aren't paying the level of taxes.

Implementing basic income and universal inheritance requires a commitment to addressing the massive, anti-democratic, destructive, and ever accelerating accumulation of our national wealth with the few. Currently, we are trapped in a "we can't afford it" mentality that is used to rationalize our continued tolerance of dehumanizing poverty, massively inequitable education, homelessness, broken system of unequal justice, mass incarceration and on and on.

There are powerful arguments for basic income and universal inheritance, but until we see them implemented in more places, we can't be sure that the goals will be met. There are other ways to approach. Our first step is defining the goals and demanding change that is likely to acheive those goals.

The fact is, we CAN afford these programs, but we lack the political will. For some thoughts on the "ingredients" necessary to build the political will, see this post.

[brush]

13. No corp. bail out for sure, but relief checks pls as having the gov. figure out who...

works or is unemployed is just going to delay getting checks in peoples' hands.

And the people who weren't out of work are just going to spend the money anyway so that'll help the economy. Everybody has suffered during trump's gross mishandling of the pandemic. We all deserve relief from trump chaos.

[edhopper]

15. Spend it on what

Eating out? Vacations? The parts of the economy that need it should remain shut down.

[John Fante]

18. Think of it as reparations for having to endure 40 years of Republican fiscal policies.

[brush]

21. Please. Stop being a Scrooge. People are adults. Most sensible people, especially...

us Dems, are not looking to violate mitigation guides.

[LanternWaste]

55. Groceries, utilities, gasoline, etc,

E.g., the very things I spent the original stimulus check on during my furlough.

[Happy Hoosier]

70. How about delivery fees for food?

Or maybe letting people actually position themselves for more actively participating in a recovery by allowing them to pay down debt. This isn’t complicated.

[I_UndergroundPanther]

73. Part of my stimulus

Check went to buying pants. I have lost a lot of weight and was swimming in the pants I had . If I put them on without a belt they'd drop on the floor.

If I didn't get that check I would not be able to afford 5 pairs of pants.

Secondly I got Othello a big cat tree. I had been promising him one for two years. He loves it.

Replaced my busted blender and toaster.

Bought some fresh art supplies.

Donated to Biden too.

I would have had to buy all that stuff piecemeal over several months because SSI is below the poverty line.

[John Fante]

16. After 40 years of Reaganomics, we ALL deserved that $1,200 stimulus.

[Rorey]

23. I emphatically agree NT

[MoonlitKnight]

17. Agree on principle but disagree based upon the results

The issues with PPP fraud and state unemployment system failures to deliver the aid show why trying to target funds has been and will be a failure.

The best solution is payments to everyone; directly, quickly, and over a prolonged period.

[Happy Hoosier]

19. Any such process has a cost

It adds administrative costs, delays, and will inevitably miss people in need. I personally think it’s better to cast a broad net here.

[sarcasmo]

22. Universal basic income now.

[I_UndergroundPanther]

74. Agree with you,universal income

Universal healthcare
It's time.

[W_HAMILTON]

24. Stop helping businesses, even small ones, and help the people instead.

[Deuxcents]

29. I will agree

People will spend that money and businesses will benefit...sorta like reverse trickle down. If I get your intent...

[I_UndergroundPanther]

75. Agree.

[Autumn]

25. So we should means test the people and not corporations. Because you know that

is how it will work.

[edhopper]

32. I addressed corporations

in the OP.

[Autumn]

40. Yes you did. But corporations are never means tested.

[edhopper]

41. Obama did

But that was a responsible Administration.

[Autumn]

42. The "essential" workers that I know are hurting. They were not laid off, they got no extra

unemployment and store prices have jumped higher, but their wages are still the same.

[bcbink]

27. you think health care

workers didn't take a hit??
I am a working LPN at a non profit. age 61.
We are so short staffed. We are stressed, tired, and the cavalry is not coming. We do not make $20. an hour.
And that is the nurses. So you figure what the rest of the staff is making.
We do get overtime, as much as we can stand. There are not enough of us.
This is health care in America.
You say you don't think I deserve the $35.30 I was given because you judge I was insufficiently hurt.
What do you imagine we do all day. All week. All month.
I will tell you
We hurt.
We hurt for the people we take care of, our family, our friends. Our feet hurt. Our hearts hurt. Our backs hurt.
$1200..
I was deployed to this assignment March 16.
Thank you for your kindness.
Bernadette

[Metatron]

53. Thank you for all that you do.

[bcbink]

28. $35.30 per week. See previous post. NT

[WhiskeyGrinder]

30. If it's universal, we can be sure that the people who need it, get it.

If you make people jump through hoops or prove necessity, you lose people.

[Vivienne235729]

63. 1000+

[Yavin4]

68. And if you don't need it, donate it.

Give it to a food bank or a homeless shelter.

[Hortensis]

31. Local stimulus. If prestigious economists think this is overall

a more beneficial way to rescue local economies than other options, and many do, I won't contradict them.

If smart, concerned national politicians listen to smart economists and choose this among the possible actions as overall the best course, I won't second guess them either.

[marybourg]

33. I agree in principle, and if I get a check,I will pass it on to the food bank,

but the only way to get the money into the economy quickly is the “quick and dirty” way way it was done last time. There’s no time to examine everyone’s financial condition. Everyone has their own story, as can be seen even in this thread.

[myohmy2]

34. that's funny...

...I thought stimulus checks were the best idea ever...

"No corporate bailouts!"

...they why putting money in our pockets is the best way to go...

[PTWB]

38. We need a UBI - and this is a great first step to get folks used to it.

[edhopper]

39. My feeling is this will make it

less likely.

They will say it is a one time thing and when the pandemic is over we are back to deficit hawks.

[Demsrule86]

51. UBI isn't going to happen although it should.

[Demsrule86]

49. I am seriously sickened by such posts and this is how they win...the pit people who have

very little against each other.

[Blue_true]

58. I believed that the OP did that first.

The poster that you replied to made some reasonable points, but some bad ones also.

A person working at Walmart, for example, isn't unemployed, but also is not making a knockout salary. In the OPs line of reasoning, those people would be overlooked for any money, that is wrong. What I believe should happen is that everyone that filed tax returns within the last ten years and are still alive should get a one time stimulus check, including those that are unemployed, disabled or retired. People that want to work but are unemployed should get an additional weekly payout that is sufficient to meet the needs of a middleclass worker until they find work.

[Demsrule86]

66. A person working at Walmart would receive a 1200 dollar stimulus under the first

package. But this is how it works... people are more interesting in dragging down their fellow man than in helping them to climb...

[Demsrule86]

80. You get what you can. It is not possible to do as you want...so you help those you can...

And honestly a cushy pandemic check? Please stop. All you are doing is attempting to pit people against each other...we have the GOP for that.

[doc03]

45. I am on a fixed income SS and pension, I have actually saved money. But

I am sure others need help.

[Blue_true]

60. As a Doctor, you likely maxed out paying into Social Security every year except your Residency year.

I would guess that you had a KEOGH or IRA that you paid into yearly. So your example is not the norm. Most people can use a one time $1200 check, and I believe the last ones really helped the overall economy. A person that doesn't need the money can simply give it to charities like Feeding America or to local foodbanks.

[doc03]

78. LOL I am a retired steelworker. I got that nickname in the army. Like I said

I have saved money, no eating in restaurants, concerts, no gym, no vacation to Florida and no fall vacation to the mountains.
But I will take it and give it to my two nieces. I gave a substantial amount of the last one to the Biden campaign.

[Blue_true]

81. Ahhhh. The perils of assuming. I saw your DU name and did just that.

[doc03]

82. No problem.

[Demsrule86]

46. They are meant to be a stimulus...many people are on reduced pay too you know.

Wrong, everyone has been hurt in some way and the idea is to keep the economy going. I think a stimulus is essential...and the small business stuff was BS and was really abused.

[Blue_true]

62. Recent data has come out showing that money that was meant by Congress for small businesses

went to large businesses. That is why the Trump Administration fought to keep that information under wraps, they KNEW that they were spending the money that Congress allocated in a corrupt fashion.

My view is that stimulus checks and federal unemployment checks kept small businesses afloat. Small businesses began to fail once stimulus checks stopped coming to people, then unemployment checks stopped.

[Demsrule86]

65. I am talking unemployment and the stimulus. I have no doubt Trump was crooked but I think

the first stimulus probably saved us from falling off a cliff. Also, some small businesses here in Cleveland survived due to the stimulus.

[Blue_true]

71. I agree with the point that you made about the positive impact of stimulus.

All observations that I have made indicate that it was important in saving the economy.

[dawg]

47. The stimulus checks *were* limited based on income.

Many people didn't get them because they made too much money based on their 2018 or 2019 tax returns.

[frazzled]

72. Exactly. I think people forget what the limits were

They were fairly generous for the upper end (more should have gone to lowest income perhaps), but it was impossible to assess what individuals’ situations were for each of hundreds of millions of people. There are a million stories in the big city.

SINGLE OR MARRIED BUT FILING JOINTLY
You are eligible to receive the full payment if your adjusted gross income is below $75,000 and a reduced payment amount if it is more than $75,000 The adjusted gross income limit for a reduced payment is $99,000 if you don’t have children and increases by $10,000 for each qualifying child under 17.

HEAD OF A HOUSEHOLD

You are eligible to receive the full payment if your adjusted gross income is below $112,500 and a reduced payment amount if it is more than $112,500. The adjusted gross income limit for a reduced payment is $136,500 if you don’t have children and increases by $10,000 for each qualifying child under 17.

MARRIED FILING JOINTLY

You are eligible to receive the full payment if your adjusted gross income is below $150,00 and a reduced payment amount if it is above $150,000. The adjusted gross income limit for a reduced payment is $198,000 if you don’t have children and increases by $10,000 for each qualifying child under 17

More detail at link

https://www.consumerfinance.gov/about-us/blog/guide-covid-19-economic-stimulus-checks/

[Mr.Bill]

50. Consumers having more money to spend at small businesses

is what is needed. It's called trickle-up economics, or the opposite of what republicans have been doing for four decades and have proven it doesn't work.

[Iggo]

52. Those would be relief checks, not stimulus checks.

I used my stimulus check to stimulate the local economy, which is what it’s for, and which is a good thing.

[Blue_true]

57. I can't disagree more.

Next to unemployment checks, the universal stimulus checks was by far the best idea of the entire legislation. A second bill should definitely include them. They massively helped businesses, including small one stay afloat. Small businesses started to fail when McConnell put the brakes on more aid and both stimulus checks, then unemployment checks stopped coming to people.

[aidbo]

61. How long will it take to means-test everyone in the country?

And how many people will be evicted or lose their home during that time?
And how many people will lose their job during that time?
And how many people will lose their health insurance because they've lost their jobs during that time?
And how much damage will be done to the economy because people do not have money to spend during that time?

It is much quicker, simpler and more feasible to simply send everyone ~$2k per month. That would make a huge difference to so, so many people. And for the people who do not need it, simply tax it.

[fescuerescue]

64. It's not JUST about helping families in need of money. also about putting money into the econmy

Even well to do families who didn't miss a paycheck will spend this extra money with stores and vendors who DO need the extra money.

[Yavin4]

67. Means Testing in the middle of a national emergency is fucking stupid.

We don't have the time to make sure that everyone who needs it, gets it. It doesn't save money. It leads to bureaucratic snafus, and some people who desperately need it, may fall through the cracks.

Whoever does not need it, then donate it to a food bank or a homeless shelter or just give to a grieving family.

[Happy Hoosier]

69. The problem with means testing during a crisis...

Is that it’s typically based on last years income, not how things are going now.

[JonLP24]

76. I don't need relief

But other people do and the stimulus negotiations are resulting in a worse bill and we need to keep people out of poverty.

Think of the political implications. Democrats can't make the same mistakes they did during The Great Recession.