General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI am 71. It occurred to me this evening that most on this board are likely a "few" years younger
than me---like 30---40---50? And while I make no claim to superior ability or intelligence, I think that maybe I recall a time that younger people may have difficulty understanding or even believing. Before what's left of my often frazzled mind departs, allow me to file a report from the '50s and '60s.
"Conservative" hasn't always been a synonym for "mean". Many, such as Everett Dirksen, Dwight Eisenhower or Chuck Percy, were people with whom we could disagree but respect. They had a different view of how the government should be operated but, believe it or not, we just considered them "wrong", not "bad".
And, the term "liberal" was a label proudly worn by nearly all in our party. Back then, being a liberal, at least in my small town corner of the world, simply meant that one favored labor over the corporations, farmers over the elevators and most underdogs against those above them. Oversimplified---Democrats were for the poor and Republicans were for the wealthy.
Some assholes were Democrats; some were Republicans.
It was a gradual process but, over the years, an effort was made to associate "liberals" with "socialists" and then, "socialists" with ---OMG! ---"COMMIES!" During those same years, "conservative" was associated with "God-fearing patriots".
How was this done?
A few handfuls of uber-rich conservatives owned most of the major newspapers and, by virtue of the millions of advertising dollars spent annually by their business interests, they controlled many of the radio and tv stations. Finally, their monetary contributions and endowments permitted them to influence what scholars researched and wrote about. All in all, the moneyed few sought to determine what---and who---was "acceptable" and "good" and even "American".
That was the beginning of how we got to where we now are as a nation. I'm sure others could chart the changes with more expertise and authority, but that's how I saw it.
The good news? You younger people are smarter and more tolerant than my generation.
That's worth what it cost you.
Turin_C3PO
(14,083 posts)Im 37 and I admire many things about your generation and am also proud of my fellow Millennials for being very open minded. If good people of all generations unite, we can save this country from the evil currently infecting it. I truly believe this.
badboy67
(460 posts)panader0
(25,816 posts)ShazzieB
(16,541 posts)We are spring 🐔s!
marybourg
(12,639 posts)a very large percentage of us were in the post-65 age range. I, for instance am a few years older than you.
BumRushDaShow
(129,606 posts)Definitely a boomer board, although obviously that poll only represents a fraction of DUers - i.e., those who chose to respond. But it was still telling.
marybourg
(12,639 posts)BumRushDaShow
(129,606 posts)so it was pretty fascinating.
Nevilledog
(51,209 posts)Not how old I act.
BumRushDaShow
(129,606 posts)But you certainly have a lot of energy (you and kentuck).
marybourg
(12,639 posts)Like the OP, I assumed most posters were younger than me. That poll surprised me.
BumRushDaShow
(129,606 posts)in the branch where I worked, the next "youngest" person there was 15 years older than me (the now mid-70s age group) and there were a pile of them, many who back then were fans of shows like "Thirtysomething" (also because it supposedly took place here in Philly) and "Moonlighting", so I was surrounded by that front end of the boomer group (I am a tail-ender).
marybourg
(12,639 posts)with any regularity was " Have Gun, Will Travel ".
BumRushDaShow
(129,606 posts)I never watched either. There was a flurry of "copy cat" films/series after the movie "The Big Chill" came out -
leftieNanner
(15,172 posts)He worked incredibly hard and was unfailingly generous. He was honest and 100% ethical. He was a Republican.
They are a different breed of cat now. He and Mom passed away in 2008 and I'm very glad that they didn't see what their political party was to become. They would have been thoroughly disgusted by Trump.
Edit to add: I'm 68. He was 94 when he died.
dhol82
(9,353 posts)They had many problems but, the main one, was lack of advertisers. Outside of major metro areas, nobody wanted to get screwed over by the local conservatives.
I would love to go back to the Fairness Doctrine.
Evolve Dammit
(16,780 posts)Stuart G
(38,449 posts)Yes. 5th word...is the O word......
LSFL
(1,109 posts)But I love political history. Most of my kind live in the moment and have no perspective. They are lucky that we will be gone relatively soon. Our immortality would not end well for them.
msongs
(67,453 posts)oro
(88 posts)I'm younger than you, Atticus the Elder, but I know what you mean. I too think Millienials are not so bad and I find the Zoomers are amazing. They are down for it, like Greta Thunberg and those kids at Parkland. I hope I can get out of the house someday and join their marches!
Dream Girl
(5,111 posts)MustLoveBeagles
(11,638 posts)Things changed in the 80's. It became fashionable to be selfish and a mean asshole. Reagan getting rid of the Fairness Doctrine and the assention of hate radio in the later part of the decade didn't help either. Perhaps the biggest mistake the Democrats of that era made was not taking Rush and his ilk seriously and aggressively countering their lies.
appalachiablue
(41,177 posts)Evolve Dammit
(16,780 posts)burrowowl
(17,653 posts)Marie Marie
(9,999 posts)ShazzieB
(16,541 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)They supported separate and unequal schools, supported state rights to discriminate, stole elections and suppressed the vote, not to mention looked forward to lynchings.
Of course, that changed when the rest of the Democrats got behind the Civil Rights Act and the Dixiecrats migrated to the GOP, who were waiting with open arms for them.
Back then, Dixiecrats were just racist conservatives who supported Social Security. They realized that without Social Security their parents and grandparents -- who mostly came from poor dirt farms living day to day -- would have to move in with their children to survive.
Where I still live -- on the fringe of a deep rube red area -- the young'uns are pretty much as hateful and racist as the previous generation unless they left for a decent education. Some are a little more respectful to diversity, but loyally support the likes of trump.
Fortunately, I don't have to deal with them directly very much.
cornball 24
(1,481 posts)with your assessment of the values guiding our young people. With grandchildren in the teens, twenties and thirties, I am elated with the fact that their priorities hopefully will steer us in the right direction.
kskiska
(27,048 posts)There were some anti-Catholic nuts who claimed that if Kennedy won he'd be taking orders from the Vatican. Also, Barry Goldwater gave us pause for being a dangerous warmonger, but those instances pale compared to what's going on today. Congress people used to be dignified and statesmanlike, concerned for the future of our country, not like some of these rabblerousers who look and act like they were picked off the street.
LiberalArkie
(15,730 posts)It has been said that guys with Aspergers get younger as the years go by.
Initech
(100,107 posts)Yeah I have spent a lot of time on here in case you can't tell!
empedocles
(15,751 posts)image - but on the campaign trail made clear he wanted the 'NAACP to stop running the government'. He helped bring Birchers, patriot groups, hate groups, various groups favoring their rabid state governors and segregation, into the right wing fold.
appalachiablue
(41,177 posts)The first fascist take over, aka The Wall Street/Business Plot in the early 1930s planned to declare FDR ill and take over the country.
Fortunately Gen. Smedley Butler who was approached to lead the associated paramilitary group didn't go along with the plot, spilled the beans and testified before Congress about it in 1934.
burrowowl
(17,653 posts)appalachiablue
(41,177 posts)Still Sensible
(2,870 posts)up in the political world with a more liberal viewpoint, but find they often lack context. I'm only a few years behind you Atticus as I'll be 66 next month. I find myself trying to express the same historical/contextual points with those of younger generations.
Unfortunately, we see such polarization right now that the very ideas we grew up with--collaboration, loyal opposition, progress through compromise--and the like, are hard to imagine. I believe you are right in pointing to wealthy and business special interests and the proliferation of money in politics as the significant drivers to our current political cliff. When those forces align with the racist and classist history of the American experiment, it is easy to see how we got here. It goes without saying that the whole Trumpism debacle is simply a logical result of those forces.
Generic Brad
(14,276 posts)The self proclaimed Moral Majority seemed to kick start the current movement. The rise of Rush Limbaugh's propaganda machine propelled it further (I even found Rush entertaining back in the early 90's). Then Newt Gingrich and Lee Atwater became the embodiment of the right wing slime movement.
When the GOP declared war on the Clinton's it was the first blow in a decades long fight that has seen them devolve into their current incarnation. Once they normalized lying and dirty fighting, there was no going back. Conservatism no longer appeals to our higher angels, it is has become a label that identifies the worst among us.
Moostache
(9,897 posts)His hideous administration and its criminality have been glossed over in the memory of too many. He was a demon and his policies tore the coupling of wages and productivity from balanced to dominated by capital. From there it has been a steady destruction of norms and assumed roles in government and society.
The rich are no longer embarrassed by their own hideous greed, they celebrate it and use the media and advertising to keep people chasing material goods they do not need as a result - the intent is to worship wealthy, excuse the wealthy and punish the poor.
Everything else flows from there...
DENVERPOPS
(8,847 posts)It was called the "Reagan Administration" but in reality it was HWBush and Cheney, Rumsfeld etc. administration.
The same exact same criminals that brought us the "W" administration.......
They were intent on bringing us another of their Classical puppet administration presidents, but Putin pre-empted the election and installed a person he could control absolutely. One that Putin could use under the guise of the RepubliCON party to help destroy the nation and democracy...
The RepubliCONs have created a frankensteins monster, and they haven't a clue what to do about him, except use him to divert attention from the corrupting of everything they can while the attention has daily been on Trump's antics......
Hamlette
(15,412 posts)He left the party and became a godless commie pinko like the rest of us in the family.
Response to Atticus (Original post)
geralmar This message was self-deleted by its author.
TruckFump
(5,812 posts)So feel like a youngster!
Aussie105
(5,440 posts)Lots of oldies on here.
The young ones are on Tick-Tock-Knit-a-Sock, FacePuke, Twittler, Parlor, etc.
But I'm deluding myself. Doing more now then when I was younger. Just takes twice as long.
Still looking at the young girls though, so I can't be too far gone. 8-)
WinstonSmith4740
(3,059 posts)So I totally get it. Basically, it started with Reagan...he came out of the gate demonizing Democrats. By the end of his administration, those wealthy media outlet owners had managed to get The Fairness Doctrine thrown out, opening the door for Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, et al. And since the truth no longer was a requirement for broadcast or print, well here we are.
DFW
(54,447 posts)He was charming, entertaining, and loved to hold court in the Senate Press Gallery. My dad was a member of the Washington press, and took me up there all the time in the late fifties and early to mid-sixties. We had hot and cold running Senators as house guests. Frank Church of Idaho or Jake Javits of New York, party didnt matter. They just had to be good guys.
I cant think of one Republican Senator today with whom he would even been able to stand having coffee with, let alone out to the house for the afternoon.
grantcart
(53,061 posts)Tom Rinaldo
(22,917 posts)Mr.Bill
(24,332 posts)What I've learned over the years is we can learn from those older than us as well as those younger than us.
patphil
(6,225 posts)I would think that a person would only fear God if they felt they were a bad person and therefore were afraid of God's judgement.
If you are a good Christian, you should be a God-loving person.
The problem is that you can't both fear God and love God.
I know many people will take issue with this, but it only stands to reason.
Love is an expansive energy that opens up to others. Fear is the opposite, it contracts and closes a person down.
If you fear God, you automatically close yourself off to God's love. And, as such, you are no longer able to have your love, if there really is any, reach God.
I say to you that no one who actually loves God would ever want to be labeled as a "God-fearing" person. Fearing God is withholding of oneself from God. Only someone who felt unworthy because of their actions would do that.
It certainly isn't something to brag about.
BunnyMcGee
(464 posts)I never could grasp what was so good or important about 'God fearing'. Never accepted that.
Your post patphil is spot on with me.
patphil
(6,225 posts)Deuxcents
(16,352 posts)Next month! I cant say how much I appreciate all views here..I dont wonder the generation as much as I try to keep up with the never ending tech that makes me feel .. older! There is no limit to our being informed ..we all have our views n worth here. Thanks for helping me along the way.
tavernier
(12,407 posts)Still working, still going out for cocktails, still walking the streets (but only for exercise ). I work with teenagers so it keeps me young. I would even date but the last two who asked me out were republicans and Im not that hard up.
OneBlueSky
(18,536 posts)we have a much, much better taste in music . . .
not something I wish to debate . . . it just is . . .
QED . . .
Pepsidog
(6,254 posts)leighbythesea2
(1,200 posts)Gen X here, 53. I remember thinking Republicans were wrong but not bad, also.
But still don't have perspective before the 80s. My mom is as liberal as they come, my career field is about the same. Ended up buying property where I grew up, red area, and after 20 years gone. Shocked and mortified by open statements and beliefs by the conservatives, I was getting "reacquainted" with.
Yes, clearly I've been in a bubble. However, these are people within a 5 year range in age, of me--who thought themselves open-minded 30 years ago. (And were more then) I find Gen X split in two, but haven't researched it. By that I mean, those who work a lot on staying current on technology and personal reinvention, and those who attempted the blue collar path, which didnt pan out for our gen the best---& got stuck. Seems like a demarcation there, as far as meanness. Just observational.
I like, and have a lot of faith in millennials and gen z too.
former9thward
(32,088 posts)You are not older. Your are about average according to people responding to those polls.
MaryMagdaline
(6,856 posts)Violence ...
JFK assassination
MLK assassination
RFK Assassination
Attempted assassinations of Ford, Wallace, Reagan
1968 Democratic convention
1967 riots
1968 riots
Birmingham bombing
Murder of civil rights workers in Mississippi
Exception: moon walk
Maybe public officials were more reasonable in public because they had to tamp down real, scary violence.
Im 62 in a few weeks. I dont think I lived in the golden age of civility. The 60s were much worse.
A_Woman_from_MI
(165 posts)While I don't remember per se, George Romney (yep, Mitt's father) was governor of Michigan when I was a child. Rumor has it he was a principled and decent man.
Hell, I'm so old, there were two Democratic governors of Texas when I lived there!
Things are so much more polarized than they once were. I can't pinpoint exactly when/where the changes began to become pronounced, but people definitely got a little meaner during the Reagan years, which the advent of Fox "news" amplified tenfold. And you know what? I wouldn't even care about being called a "socialist" if the person slinging it at me as an insult had anything like a clue what it meant😏
I too, am grateful for the younger, and far more tolerant generations that will soon grab the torch if we won't fucking pass it to them.
progressoid
(49,999 posts)trickyguy
(769 posts)but I come here to learn from all ages that chose to post their ideas and opinions.
Sometimes it takes me quite a while to go through it all - like tonight-
but it's usually worth it.
Your post caught my eye and I'm glad to be able to respond.
Keep going.
NBachers
(17,149 posts)Nixon's defeat by Kennedy allowed us to glimpse the possibilities of a government and a future we could all be part of. But, in an example of how the forces of authoritarianism, repression, and criminal power-grabbing never sleep, Nixon's election in 1968 paved the way for our current nightmare.
Check out the first few minutes of John Cameron Swayze's Camel News Caravan from September 19th, 1952. The first story's about Nixon and what, for the day, was a scandal of corruption and lies. It may seem quaint by today's standards, but it was significant in scale for 1952. Allow this cancer to grow and metastasize, and you have today's planet-killer corruption. Check out the next few stories after Nixon. Same ol' same ol'.
https://archive.org/details/CamelNewsCaravan-19september1952
aka-chmeee
(1,132 posts)while stationed in New Jersey. I remember the venue as a small art theater but it was packed...Nixon was not popular among the troops, at least at Fort Monmouth. It's an interesting and educational movie.
BobTheSubgenius
(11,572 posts)Growing up in Vancouver in the late 60's and into the 70's was one of the best experiences anyone could ask for. We were the Masters Of The Universe, and were going to change the world.
One could be deflated by looking around and noticing how the lines of division have grown, and the entire gestalt has shifted so far to the right.
Although we considered them borderline evil BITD, I long for the days of Derkson, Goldwater, and even Buckley. You knew where they stood, they meant what they said, and could even reach a reasonable compromise, most of the time. Tip O'Neill and Reagan used to duke it, no holds barred, but would have a drink together at the end of the day, or the week.
People, on the whole, had respect for each other, and for the "other side." We are so far away from that now.
LAS14
(13,783 posts)mtnsnake
(22,236 posts)Thank you, Atticus!!
I vaguely remember "Watergate". But I do remember a very detailed account in Rolling Stone early 90's??? How the Republicans had hijacked religion. I do remember the vilification of Single Mom's, (Murphy Brown),latchkey kids, and the Anita Hill trial.
All of that was skewed towards keeping women in their place and keeping the status quo. I also remember Chicago Labor Unions backing Governor Thompson, a Republican in the 80's? He was very good to labor.
Joinfortmill
(14,473 posts)Hekate
(90,842 posts)...of brainwashing that had turned liberal from a descriptive word to an epithet, a dirty word. It was during the runup to BushCheneys war that I got it, and I was so upset.
I didnt make it to DU until September of 2002, and it was here I learned of Newt Gingrichs seminal place in twisting the meaning of words: he made a list, easily available online to this day.
Gingrich had lots of help, to be sure, but he was a bright boy.
So I remember a different time, too. I admit I am a bit nostalgic for the way the religious and political nutballs were seriously just on the fringes of society instead of elevated and kowtowed to the way they are now.
Chemisse
(30,817 posts)You're not as alone as you think.
I do think the perceptions and memories from the older ones here have a lot of value, especially in understanding how all this came about.
Decades ago, I used to think about who I would vote for for president. I wasn't affiliated with a party; I'd compare them on issues, etc, and think it over and then vote. But now they are so vastly different - this started with Reagon I think - that it's hard for me to understand how there is even really a choice to be made.
On edit - Maybe I was just naive, since upon reflection, I wound up voting for the democrat each time. I was against Nixon (a few days too young to vote for McGovern), I voted for Jimmy Carter twice, and all Dems after Reagan.
Fla Dem
(23,767 posts)between the Left and Right.
While much of what you say did have an impact over the last 20+ years, the biggest influencers were Talk radio and the repeal of the Fairness Doctrine in 1987 and Rush Limbaughs rise to prominence in the RW world of talk radio starting on WABC in 1988. Conservative talk radio dominated the air waves from the 1990 s right up to now. Add to that FOX News coming on the scene in 1996 and the growth of the internet.
Conservatives and RWers were able to get their messages and assaults on Democrats out easier than the Left and the Dems did little to push back. It continues today.
The Right has enormous power in the media; Fox News, OAN, and a number of podcasts, talk radio
and Internet personalities lin addition to Limbaugh, there is Glenn Beck, Hannity, Michael Savage, etc.
For some reason, the Left has not been able to use media to their advantage like the Right has for the last 20-30 years.
BarbD
(1,193 posts)Yesterday is in many ways a matter of perspective. Growing up in a white, christian, suburb of Milwaukee in a society where everyone knew their "place".
There were two newspapers -- one leaning left and one definitely Republican.
Kimberly-Clark (makers of Kleenex) boasted they survived the longest strike in Wisconsin labor history.
Sen. McCarthy screamed "There are Communists in the Government."
Jews had their own country club and their own neighborhoods.
Black women took the bus to the suburbs to clean houses.
There were homes for unwed mothers.
When looking for a job I was asked, "How fast can you type?"
We all had Civics in school and learned how Government worked.
ananda
(28,879 posts)I used to respect the old conservatives as well.
But that changed with Ronald Reagan. That started
all this. It was crazy and ugly, but Reeps could still
maintain a veneer of looking sane and morally superior,
even though it was clear to me that they weren't, but
not to all that many others.
I sure hope we can pull out of this political morass we
are all mired in.
I really want to see a better world.. and soon!
colsohlibgal
(5,275 posts)It surely seems like the years fly by once youre past 40. It seems like it takes forever to get to 16, 18, 21 but then it flies by.
highplainsdem
(49,043 posts)(which allows people 50 and older to join).
Here's one such poll:
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100213017831
I'm not quite as old as you, but like you I'm old enough to remember when there were a lot of moderate Republicans, and when even self-styled conservative Republicans tended to be rational and principled rather than batshit crazy.
I blame RW media, especially RW talk radio and its saturation of radio air waves 24/7 in many markets, for the change.
RW radio hosts got more listeners by peddling grievances and outrage than by hosting rational discussions. To compete and get better ratings, they needed to keep adding to the grievances and outrage. Peddling conspiracy theories helped. Offering excuses for bigotry helped.
And yes, a handful of RW billionaires helped fund this.
Starting during Nixon's administration.
There used to be a very detailed history of their early meetings and influence in an article online, years ago, but I can't find it now.
I did, however, find a 2017 blog at Yale that covers some of this:
https://isps.yale.edu/news/blog/2017/11/how-to-change-a-policy-agenda-start-40-years-ago
While the lavish spending on a conservative libertarian agenda by the Koch brothers has attracted plenty of ink over the past few years, their machinations cannot adequately explain todays political spectrum. Relative latecomers to the Republican Party, the Koch brothers built upon the groundwork laid by earlier funders and activists, which simultaneously posed benefits for and obstacles to reshaping the agenda to their own ends. The conservative movement of the present day reflects the desires of funders, entrepreneurs, and leaders who came together in the 1970smany of whom now wield their influence from beyond the grave.
Key figures of the 1970s included entrepreneurs like the late Paul Weyrich, co-founder of the Heritage Foundation, and his wealthy ally, late beer magnate Joseph Coors. While the Kochs dabbled with third party libertarian politics, less well known foundations like Coors, Scaife, Olin, Bradley, and others supported efforts to redirect the Republican policy agenda in a more permanently conservative bent.
My archival research into the New Right network of leaders, foundations, think tanks, student groups, media, and other institutions provides an explanation for how to build a sustainable sociopolitical movement with influence half a century later. Starting in 1971 with the precursor to the Heritage Foundation, my research follows a trajectory of increasing pressure toward right-wing policies on the national level and an investment in local and state institutions and races far surpassing that of progressive organizers. The success of the Tea Party movement, and the ascendency of a white male supremacist political movement now, builds upon these existing infrastructures.
The loyalty and trust conservative funders invested in New Right leaders supported movement-building through serial entrepreneurship and long-term planning. Weyrich, the chief strategist of the New Right, was able to put his ideas into reality after connecting with Coors. The beer magnate provided $250,000 in start-up funds for the a new research organization from 1971-1972equivalent to about $1.5 million in todays dollars, an expensive risk on an untried leader. But after a couple false starts, this investment lead to Weyrich founding of the Rights most prominent think tank in 1973, the Heritage Foundation. With Coors backing, Weyrich also established the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC), Television News Inc. (TVN), and the Committee for the Survival of a Free Congress over the next year. Progressive foundations have been critiqued for funding pet projects with time-consuming annual renewals instead of guaranteeing operating expenses necessary to sustainable organizational development.
Conservative funders, with an eye to the long-term, accepted that there would be failures. When TVN closed in 1975, having lost eight million dollars, Coors continued to financially support his friend in arms. By the end of the decade, that meant backing Weyrichs work organizing the New Christian Right and helping to found the Moral Majority with the late Jerry Falwell.
And while TVN may have been a very expensive failure, it too had one lasting impact: training Roger Ailes, future CEO of Fox News.
-snip-
Again, I think RW talk radio has been the most important way this message was delivered to Republican voters, especially in rural areas. 24/7 brainwashing. Compared to that, much of Fox News scheduling is almost mainstream. We haven't seen TV networks comparable to RW talk radio until NewsMax and OANN.
kpete
(72,024 posts)I just turned 69, mr pete is your age 71. Our generation had the best chance of changing the world by our sheer numbers. We were all about "peace, love and understanding". I believe we blew it by buying the shit they sold us on TV, not just the "news" but the consumerism.
By the time we made it to the 90s we were on a spending spree that would keep us on this consumer merry-go-round for the rest of our lives and our children's and grandchildren's.....We were sold a dream that turned into a nightmare.
I too fell for the comfort of "stuff". At 69, the "stuff" reveals itself to be unnecessary, the "peace, love and understanding" seems elusive.
I hope you are right about younger people, but can they fix the mess previous generations have created?
Here's to HOPE!
peace,
kp
Atticus
(15,124 posts)wiggs
(7,819 posts)and when combined with a goal of concentration of wealth/power, willingness to deceive, and an 'ends justify the means' immorality became a powerful propaganda tool