Michael Cohen suggests Trump issued secret pardons for himself and his kids in case of indictments

[still_one]

"Appearing on MSNBC on Sunday afternoon with host Alex Witt, former Donald Trump attorney Michael Cohen stated he believes the former president issued secret pardons for himself and his kids while still in office -- with the intent on making them public only if they are needed.

Speaking with the host, Cohen -- who lost his law license when he went to jail -- said he was puzzled why Trump never self-pardoned when he could, adding that the one thing the president fears is serving time in jail.

That, he explained, caused him to come up with an interesting theory of "pocket pardons" that could be used at a later date as -- essentially -- "get out of jail free" cards."

https://www.rawstory.com/trump-self-pardon-2650122263/

[Irish_Dem]

1. Of course he did, no doubt at all. Why wouldn't he?

Nothing to lose.

[FarPoint]

26. Ditto...

I believe that completely...

[Kahuna]

34. 100% he did. No way would he not pardon himself and his kids. nt

[soothsayer]

2. Probably challengeable

Also won’t help them

[bluestarone]

3. YEP. and we won't know this until

Joe's team is complete.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

4. If that happened, they would have to be documented somehow

in order to prove they were issued while he was still president. He can't just produce a Sharpie-signed piece of paper claiming to be a pardon without some independent way of proving when it was done.

[Ferrets are Cool]

16. From what I have read and heard, yes, he can.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

18. Maybe, but how would he prove that he granted a pardon *while he was president*

unless he documented it somehow at the time? It would certainly be challenged in court if he tried to use it without some proof he was still president when he granted it (and a self-pardon will be challenged anyhow).

[Ferrets are Cool]

20. I think it was Michael Beschloss who said

that it would be taken to court and could be there for years being hashed out. I wish it were not true, but the Founding Fathers just didn't count on anyone as evil as OrangeAnus being President. None of us did.

[Ford_Prefect]

32. Beschloss is a respected historian. However he is not a Constitutional lawyer.

For the document to be considered legitimate it must be registered somewhere while Trump had the authority to issue it. That means there is a verifiable chain of evidence proving so. Anyone can produce a document and swear it is real. The court requires an independent proof of such.

While Trump may have indeed signed such pardons they cannot be used to protect him from crimes in which he is complicit with others. They also cannot defend him from State prosecution for the same offense.

And then there is the cover-up question. Actions which were intended to mask his participation in crimes can themselves be actionable and may not be covered in the pocket pardon.

I have my doubts about the genuine efficacy of the "hidden" pardon since such could be endlessly pulled out and used, in theory as long as he is alive. I think that may violate the intent and the letter of the law and the Constitution. Presidential power is supposed to end when the term does.

The writers of the Constitution intended that we could not have Aristocrats immune from the law, including the President. They are on record in discussion of this particular point. That doesn't change just because some conservative with no authority to rewrite the Constitution asserts that he believes it to be so. No matter what dubious memo was written to suit Dick Nixon's whims.

None of this may prevent extended delaying tactics in and out of court.

[hlthe2b]

5. I still believe they had to be documented somewhere, somehow with DOJ & the new admin will

find and likely reveal such evidence. To not do so would be to render them useless, given the recipient could not prove they were officially issued prior to Biden's taking the oath of office and assuming the Presidency at 12:01 PM on 11/20/2021.

If such pardons exist, they will become public.

[DeminPennswoods]

28. Yeah, agree there's a record of them at DoJ

or somewhere otherwise who's to say they aren't falsified documents should they conveniently be pulled out?

[wishstar]

6. Giuliani could have a secret pardon too since he is still subject of DOJ investigation

He's been involved in some very suspicious activities with Lev Parnas and others involving Russian-linked Ukrainians and Russian operatives and could very well have been pardoned so that he wouldn't cut a plea deal if indicted.

[marlakay]

7. Where in the law does it say

They get to have secret pardons? Who allowed this and can we vote to change that?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

12. It doesn't say they can't do it. The power to pardon is in the Constitution,

so legislation can't do much to change it.

[marlakay]

13. But the secret part nothing says it then

So they should make an amendment that pardons can only be certain types not politically motivated and not secret. No friends! Who would vote against that?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

14. Look up the process for constitutional amendments.

It's very, very slow and rarely successful.

[Ferrets are Cool]

17. This

[Yeehah]

19. The Freedom of Information Act requires an exemption for documents to be kept secret

A "secret pardon" would not fall under any of those exemptions.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

22. We'll find out soon enough if he did it, in any event,

because he'll have to prove he did it while he was still in office. I think what is meant by a "secret pardon" is one that is not publicly announced as most pardons are. However, it will have to be documented somehow to prove when it was done, and that documentation would not be secret in the same sense as classified information. Maybe someone will make a FOIA request to see what turns up.

[ADK]

21. I'm sorry, I don't buy it.

Transparency is presumed when it comes to official government actions that are not shielded by privileged, or in furtherance of national security interests and classified. I don’t understand how a “secret” pardon could be issued. I’d have to think any such pardon would be challengeable as void against public policy. The fact that the Constitution does not expressly disallow it is not the end of the analysis. As a purely political matter, let Trump and his spawn try to pull out a secret pardon. That will only further underscore that the Republican Party is veering toward fascist and autocratic.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

24. I think the term "secret" is being used pretty loosely, and not in the same sense

as classified information that can't be disclosed to anyone. There is no specific requirement in the Constitution that a pardon has to be placed on a public list as they normally are and as described by the Pardon Office, but obviously it would have to be documented somewhere and not just kept in Trump's pocket in case he needs it down the road. So a "secret" pardon that isn't on a public list could still be hypothetically valid if it was documented somewhere to show that it was done while he was still in office.

[ADK]

27. There still has to be a public record I would think.

And if there were a “secret” pardon issued, any records would be available under the FOIA. I can’t imagine that a member of the media hasn’t made a request for disclosure.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

29. Maybe they have, but FOIA requests tend to take a very long time.

One that was made during the Trump administration would have been buried, so I hope they do it when there's no chance of some leftover Trump stooge doing the same thing.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

8. Not just for them, I suspect.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=14961899

[Marius25]

9. I doubt those will be upheld in court.

How can he prove he signed those pardons while he was still in office?

[tanyev]

10. How does that even work?

Where are these magic pieces of paper stored? Who makes the public announcement that they are in effect? Is there anything that prevents Trump from claiming they exist when they really don’t?

[Pantagruel]

11. Exactamente!

[CanonRay]

15. It is my understanding that pardons had to be delivered

before the next administration took over or were invalid. But I'm not an expert.

[jalan48]

23. There's one way to test it. Charge Trump and his family with a Federal crime and see what happens.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

25. Yup, and I hope that happens.

[Sanity Claws]

30. Is this why 45 left a note for Biden?

Did Trump tell Biden about those pardons in that note?
You know that he didn't write a note to Biden out of politeness or to wish him well.

[lettucebe]

31. I have no doubt and couldn't care less. They will never stand up.

Our govt is a big flaming pile of dung that a beetle wouldn't touch.

[MurrayDelph]

33. Wouldn't they have had to have been filed

in accordance with The Presidential Records Act in order to be considered valid documents?