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NRaleighLiberal

(60,027 posts)
Fri Jan 29, 2021, 10:21 PM Jan 2021

Important, NYT "The Coup We Are Not Talking About"

We can have democracy, or we can have a surveillance society, but we cannot have both.

By Shoshana Zuboff
Dr. Zuboff, a professor emeritus at Harvard Business School, is the author of “The Age of Surveillance Capitalism.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/29/opinion/sunday/facebook-surveillance-society-technology.html

(such a relevant article - trying hard to pick out four paragraphs to post. Too bad about the paywall - essential reading)

snip

The horrific depths of Donald Trump’s attempted political coup ride the wave of this shadow coup, prosecuted over the last two decades by the antisocial media we once welcomed as agents of liberation. On Inauguration Day, President Biden said that “democracy has prevailed” and promised to restore the value of truth to its rightful place in democratic society. Nevertheless, democracy and truth remain under the highest level of threat until we defeat surveillance capitalism’s other coup.

The epistemic coup proceeds in four stages.

The first is the appropriation of epistemic rights, which lays the foundation for all that follows. Surveillance capitalism originates in the discovery that companies can stake a claim to people’s lives as free raw material for the extraction of behavioral data, which they then declare their private property.

The second stage is marked by a sharp rise in epistemic inequality, defined as the difference between what I can know and what can be known about me. The third stage, which we are living through now, introduces epistemic chaos caused by the profit-driven algorithmic amplification, dissemination and microtargeting of corrupt information, much of it produced by coordinated schemes of disinformation. Its effects are felt in the real world, where they splinter shared reality, poison social discourse, paralyze democratic politics and sometimes instigate violence and death.

In the fourth stage, epistemic dominance is institutionalized, overriding democratic governance with computational governance by private surveillance capital. The machines know, and the systems decide, directed and sustained by the illegitimate authority and anti-democratic power of private surveillance capital. Each stage builds on the last. Epistemic chaos prepares the ground for epistemic dominance by weakening democratic society — all too plain in the insurrection at the U.S. Capitol.

snip

36 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Important, NYT "The Coup We Are Not Talking About" (Original Post) NRaleighLiberal Jan 2021 OP
Many NYT articles can be accessed if you google the title and click to select the cached version. Lisa0825 Jan 2021 #1
I am not reading them anymore...we have states trying to make it so people who vote don't have Demsrule86 Jan 2021 #2
Or copy the link and open it in incognito mode. n/t aggiesal Jan 2021 #7
Couldn't make much sense of it without looking up the definition of "epistemic"... Mister Ed Jan 2021 #3
It's essentially about the takeover of info by FB, Twitter, others NRaleighLiberal Jan 2021 #4
I believe it's referring to how we get knowledge or understand the world around us. jalan48 Jan 2021 #9
In essence, it's about how social media and search engines DeminPennswoods Jan 2021 #14
Yes I agree -- the word threw the entire piece off for me as I tried interpreting the definition live love laugh Jan 2021 #25
Kick Rec Bookmark & Thanks. I don't know why so many DUers make a hobby of hating on NYT. nt Hekate Jan 2021 #5
It is odd. Thanks for the rec. NRaleighLiberal Jan 2021 #6
I don't hate NYT--only some writers/editors. Surely you see that. hlthe2b Jan 2021 #11
What I see is that every time an Op-Ed writer or opinion columnist is obnoxious.... Hekate Jan 2021 #12
Sure, world-class newspaper and ALSO corrupt agent of business/wealth/Pubs. Hortensis Jan 2021 #15
Worth the read! burrowowl Jan 2021 #8
Someone learned a new word (epistemic) and determined to use it in every other sentence. hlthe2b Jan 2021 #10
This message was self-deleted by its author geralmar Jan 2021 #17
strange take Celerity Jan 2021 #18
No. I know better than to use the same word 36 times in an article and I am well published hlthe2b Jan 2021 #19
sorry, disagree completely, and you lost me instantly with the ridiculous snark about 'new word' nt Celerity Jan 2021 #20
Someone who uses the same word over and over is trying too hard to appear erudite and most often hlthe2b Jan 2021 #22
To each his own, but you also again double down with the condescension towards a very accomplished Celerity Jan 2021 #23
It is an established writing principle that any accomplished author and certainly editor should KNOW hlthe2b Jan 2021 #24
The New York Times disagrees. Celerity Jan 2021 #26
Hardly an example of the most consistent editing the past several years. Point NOT made. hlthe2b Jan 2021 #27
The NYT doesn't make stylistic editorial changes to opinion articles it publishes. grantcart Jan 2021 #34
my points made prior to this all stand nt Celerity Jan 2021 #36
Valuable viewpoint, and thanks, NRaleigh. Hortensis Jan 2021 #13
See also, Cambridge Analytica. The contradictory messages to various groups was no accident. Hermit-The-Prog Jan 2021 #16
great OP, a must read article nt Celerity Jan 2021 #21
Most people don't seem to care that FB and Amazon etc. al Boomerproud Jan 2021 #28
the other consideration is that if one uses a tool for their own small, particular use - NRaleighLiberal Jan 2021 #29
You said it better than I did. Boomerproud Jan 2021 #32
I just got lucky! thanks friend! NRaleighLiberal Jan 2021 #33
The NYT has been Billytee Jan 2021 #30
Disagree. Any form of media is flawed because humans are making decisions NRaleighLiberal Jan 2021 #31
I don't see how our situation now is more dangerous than the period 1950 - 1990 Klaralven Jan 2021 #35

Demsrule86

(68,735 posts)
2. I am not reading them anymore...we have states trying to make it so people who vote don't have
Fri Jan 29, 2021, 11:10 PM
Jan 2021

their votes counted...screw NYT...like the GOP coup is over...it is not.

Mister Ed

(5,945 posts)
3. Couldn't make much sense of it without looking up the definition of "epistemic"...
Fri Jan 29, 2021, 11:24 PM
Jan 2021

...since damn near every other sentence includes that word. Some sentences use it twice.

Now that I've looked it up, it's still hard for me to make much sense of the editorial - being, like Winnie-the-Pooh, a bear of little brain.

ep·i·ste·mic (ĕp′ĭ-stē′mĭk)
adj.
Of, relating to, or involving knowledge; cognitive.

https://www.thefreedictionary.com/epistemic



NRaleighLiberal

(60,027 posts)
4. It's essentially about the takeover of info by FB, Twitter, others
Fri Jan 29, 2021, 11:32 PM
Jan 2021

here are a few of the top reader comments

This is one of the most outstanding commentaries the New York Times has published in a very long time. Highest praise to Professor Zuboff and the newspaper.

One of the best things about it is zeroing in on the core issues, something that Times opinion pieces sometimes fall short of doing.

This interpretation of recent political events in the context of the growth of surveillance capitalism is the best way to understand the evil of social media that I, at least, have ever read.

Implementing Professor Zuboff's program (Let's get started!) would mean the end of Facebook--at least, Facebook as we know it--as well as smaller, but (at least by degree) equally evil, social media.

Now, what better outcome can you possibly imagine, than that?

_________________________

The corporate surveillance state is no doubt a terrifying behemoth. I am surprised this piece did not make reference to the panopticon, an idea a century and a half old now. Solving the effects of the unrestricted gathering of ephemeral behavioral data and its use to precision-target messages to individuals is going to a be a very difficult quandary to solve.

However, the town-square problem has a much easier solution: Repeal Section 230, the publication immunity it enshrines for online service providers (and nobody else) is directly responsible for the scale of misinformation. Section 230 is not freedom of speech, it is freedom from liability for speech to an extent never before granted by American jurisprudence.

I say this as a Silicon Valley software engineer with a great deal of technical understanding of these systems. Section 230 has lived long past its hero days and has now become the villain. Let the chips fall where they may. You're not allowed to shout "fire" in a crowded movie theater - but you are on Facebook. That needs to change, and repealing Section 230 altogether will force social media companies to return to democratic standards of behavior with the same legal standards of liability as any publisher, like the NYT or WSJ or even Fox News.

++++++++++++++

Brilliant. Incisive. Terrifying. Not necessarily in that order.

Shoshana Zuboff’s book, title noted above at the end of her epic & essential analysis, provides a much more detailed exploration and explanation of the mechanics of the #SurveillanceState in which we have now all been ‘suddenly’ immersed. As Naomi Klein put it: “Everyone needs to read (Zuboff’s) book as an act of digital self-defence.” [yes, Canadian spelling! ]

Zuboff is this era’s Rachel Carson: “Zuboff’s book is the information industry’s Silent Spring” — Chris Hoofnagle, UC Berkeley

Amen to that. The truth shall make us free! Thank you Ms. Zuboff!!! And thank you New York Times for providing her this platform. Please consider removing the paywall barring this article from immediate access by the masses.

Every citizen needs to read it. And act on it. Now.

jalan48

(13,905 posts)
9. I believe it's referring to how we get knowledge or understand the world around us.
Sat Jan 30, 2021, 01:22 AM
Jan 2021

If algorithms are feeding us knowledge based on what they think we want to hear we will be living in a closed loop system which really doesn’t reflect reality. QAnon is an extreme example of where this type of technology can lead us.

DeminPennswoods

(15,290 posts)
14. In essence, it's about how social media and search engines
Sat Jan 30, 2021, 08:09 PM
Jan 2021

collect personal data, monetize it through the use of their algorithms and present information that is customized to each persons worldview, thus balkanizing society.

live love laugh

(13,169 posts)
25. Yes I agree -- the word threw the entire piece off for me as I tried interpreting the definition
Sat Jan 30, 2021, 09:19 PM
Jan 2021

as I read the context. I still don’t understand the word so much but I got the gist of the poorly-written op.

hlthe2b

(102,447 posts)
11. I don't hate NYT--only some writers/editors. Surely you see that.
Sat Jan 30, 2021, 09:00 AM
Jan 2021

Lately, their editing has been uneven, to put it mildly.

Hekate

(90,901 posts)
12. What I see is that every time an Op-Ed writer or opinion columnist is obnoxious....
Sat Jan 30, 2021, 07:36 PM
Jan 2021

... the entire newspaper gets slammed here for being worthless as a source of news. I’m sure you wouldn’t do that.

In fact it remains an excellent source of in-depth reporting, but as with all human endeavors we need to read it with our “critical thinking” caps on. Journalists who work there have no say in the matter of opinion columnists, nor of the choice of Op-Ed pieces.



Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
15. Sure, world-class newspaper and ALSO corrupt agent of business/wealth/Pubs.
Sat Jan 30, 2021, 08:15 PM
Jan 2021

The NYT's systematic sabotage of the Democratic Party and occasionally blatant deception (as in the 10/31/2016 "what you need to know before voting" article implying the FBI's Trump-Russia investigation hadn't found anything significant in several months and was wrapping up -- NOT!) is probably as responsible as any other single factor for electing Trump and Pub majorities in congress and various state and local governments in 2016.

I believe you know their egregious role in deceiving the nation that splinter candidate Senator Sanders was a genuine contender for the presidency and that they were teaming with the Republicans and Russia in that deception.

This is studied by media experts, not just proven but measured in numbers (!) in evaluating the various means and degrees of bias. Some name names. The same people are still there, btw, including executive editor Dean Baquet.

I have a long love-hate relationship with the Times. Seemingly every election season they offer almost free come-on subscriptions. I'm currently in an off period.

hlthe2b

(102,447 posts)
10. Someone learned a new word (epistemic) and determined to use it in every other sentence.
Sat Jan 30, 2021, 08:57 AM
Jan 2021
Sorry. Maybe I didn't sleep well and am overly cranky, but that is not the kind of writing I would expect in the NYT. It was a cardinal rule one did not break in my advanced writing courses.
No offense to NRaleighLiberal, but this is a "thing" with me with respect to some writers, whose pomposity subsumes any credible argument.


The horrific depths of Donald Trump’s attempted political coup ride the wave of this shadow coup, prosecuted over the last two decades by the antisocial media we once welcomed as agents of liberation. On Inauguration Day, President Biden said that “democracy has prevailed” and promised to restore the value of truth to its rightful place in democratic society. Nevertheless, democracy and truth remain under the highest level of threat until we defeat surveillance capitalism’s other coup.

The epistemic coup proceeds in four stages.

The first is the appropriation of epistemic rights, which lays the foundation for all that follows. Surveillance capitalism originates in the discovery that companies can stake a claim to people’s lives as free raw material for the extraction of behavioral data, which they then declare their private property.

The second stage is marked by a sharp rise in epistemic inequality, defined as the difference between what I can know and what can be known about me. The third stage, which we are living through now, introduces epistemic chaos caused by the profit-driven algorithmic amplification, dissemination and microtargeting of corrupt information, much of it produced by coordinated schemes of disinformation. Its effects are felt in the real world, where they splinter shared reality, poison social discourse, paralyze democratic politics and sometimes instigate violence and death.

In the fourth stage, epistemic dominance is institutionalized, overriding democratic governance with computational governance by private surveillance capital. The machines know, and the systems decide, directed and sustained by the illegitimate authority and anti-democratic power of private surveillance capital. Each stage builds on the last. Epistemic chaos prepares the ground for epistemic dominance by weakening democratic society — all too plain in the insurrection at the U.S. Capitol.

Response to hlthe2b (Reply #10)

Celerity

(43,630 posts)
18. strange take
Sat Jan 30, 2021, 08:42 PM
Jan 2021
Someone learned a new word




Dr. Shoshana Zuboff is the Charles Edward Wilson Professor Emerita at Harvard Business School and a former Faculty Associate at the Berkman Klein Center for Internet and Society at Harvard Law School.

Dr. Zuboff's work is the source of many original concepts including 'surveillance capitalism', 'instrumentarian power', 'the division of learning in society', 'economies of action', 'the means of behavior modification', 'information civilization', 'computer-mediated work', the 'automate/informate' dialectic, 'abstraction of work', and 'individualization of consumption'.



take another word

like 'racism' in an article about racism

or 'COVID-19' in an article about COVID-19

and count how many times they are used

especially in a series of paragraphs that are drilling down about the concepts involved


I think the issue is that you are the one for whom 'epistemic' is a new word and therefore it sticks out for you, plus it appears you are not all that familiar with academic writing, even in a less formal manifestation like this.


The NYT article uses 'epistemic' 36 times.

Here is another article, this one from Frontiers in Psychology. It uses 'epistemic' 233 times, spread out from start to finish.



https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2018.02278/full


hlthe2b

(102,447 posts)
19. No. I know better than to use the same word 36 times in an article and I am well published
Sat Jan 30, 2021, 08:47 PM
Jan 2021

in the medical field where new terms are introduced all the time.

I do note your insult, however, but you are quite wrong.

Good writers do NOT do this.

Celerity

(43,630 posts)
20. sorry, disagree completely, and you lost me instantly with the ridiculous snark about 'new word' nt
Sat Jan 30, 2021, 08:49 PM
Jan 2021

hlthe2b

(102,447 posts)
22. Someone who uses the same word over and over is trying too hard to appear erudite and most often
Sat Jan 30, 2021, 08:52 PM
Jan 2021

has chosen a word they themselves were not accustomed to using (thus my reference to a "new" word--new to the writer). It is obvious and as I stated before, such pomposity subsumes any CREDIBLE argument.

I am repelled by such, but obviously, you seem to find it appealing. Most editors would smack this down. But, to each his/her own.

Celerity

(43,630 posts)
23. To each his own, but you also again double down with the condescension towards a very accomplished
Sat Jan 30, 2021, 09:07 PM
Jan 2021

academic and posit that she is not family with a VERY basic, foundational concept in her fields of study. Epistemology is one of the four main branches of philosophy, along with metaphysics, logic, and ethics, and your attempted framing of its adjectival form (epistemic) as being a new word for her is patently ludicrous.

hlthe2b

(102,447 posts)
24. It is an established writing principle that any accomplished author and certainly editor should KNOW
Sat Jan 30, 2021, 09:10 PM
Jan 2021

That isn't doubling down on condescension as you say, but a basic, established principle of good writing, whether technical, expository, persuasive or narrative.

Again, a decent editor would and should have slapped that down, no matter who it is nor their reputation. It is in poor form and lazy. Most editors would have done their job. If you think not, try submitting something like this yourself for publication.

Celerity

(43,630 posts)
26. The New York Times disagrees.
Sun Jan 31, 2021, 07:50 AM
Jan 2021

The usage of the same word in the article was spread out other than the drill down section you cherry picked. You also complete ignored my example that showed an article with vastly more occurrences of the same word.

My replies stand on their own, and I did not have to inject logical fallacies like your 'appeal to authority' attempt (your claiming to be a published author) to make my case.

Done here,

Cheers





hlthe2b

(102,447 posts)
27. Hardly an example of the most consistent editing the past several years. Point NOT made.
Sun Jan 31, 2021, 10:57 AM
Jan 2021

It would, however, get you a flunking grade at any reputable university writing program and your peer-reviewed manuscript rejected--but go on thinking as you do. I'm sure you will be very successful.

Please go try it! I'll enjoy from the sidelines.

grantcart

(53,061 posts)
34. The NYT doesn't make stylistic editorial changes to opinion articles it publishes.
Sun Jan 31, 2021, 11:45 AM
Jan 2021

Nor does the Times necessarily endorse the substance of an opinion piece.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
13. Valuable viewpoint, and thanks, NRaleigh.
Sat Jan 30, 2021, 07:58 PM
Jan 2021

It's worth noting that this is an opinion piece. So, the writing doesn't conform to the NYT stylebook and hasn't undergone their rigorous editorial process, and, as we all know, sometimes less admirable filtering...

Opinion pages go various ways, of course. Lying liars use them to spread propaganda, while in the same edition highly regarded experts like Dr. Zuboff may be using them to educate and focus attention on pertinent subjects and aspects not being addressed in popular media.

We may have democracy, or we may have surveillance society, but we cannot have both. Dr. Shoshana Zuboff

Hermit-The-Prog

(33,503 posts)
16. See also, Cambridge Analytica. The contradictory messages to various groups was no accident.
Sat Jan 30, 2021, 08:25 PM
Jan 2021

Typical marketing is crude compared to what's in use thanks to such corporate tracking systems such as facebook.

Boomerproud

(7,973 posts)
28. Most people don't seem to care that FB and Amazon etc. al
Sun Jan 31, 2021, 11:14 AM
Jan 2021

Have been doing this since they started. When you're buying anything online it's "Since you've purchased this we know you would like this..." We're so programmed to accept this that no one thinks about what it means.

NRaleighLiberal

(60,027 posts)
29. the other consideration is that if one uses a tool for their own small, particular use -
Sun Jan 31, 2021, 11:20 AM
Jan 2021

keeping in touch with family, etc - it is still using a tool that is enabling bad behavior - so continued use means the problem will not go away.

When I left FB and Twitter more than a year ago, it felt good - continuing to use Instagram does not feel good to me, but it is the single way I am most communicating with a large gardening community - using it to teach and share. It is a love hate relationship, and I am working to find other ways to do so, as I wish to leave Instagram as well.

But it is a trap, and I loathe the control these huge social networking companies have on life itself for so many.

NRaleighLiberal

(60,027 posts)
31. Disagree. Any form of media is flawed because humans are making decisions
Sun Jan 31, 2021, 11:37 AM
Jan 2021

and their opinions are all over the map.

The NYT and WA Post are the best we've got. There never will be a major newspaper that sees the world solidly as most of us here do.

I will continue to read and subscribe to the NYT as it is better than pretty much all alternatives.

Just my opinion of course.

 

Klaralven

(7,510 posts)
35. I don't see how our situation now is more dangerous than the period 1950 - 1990
Sun Jan 31, 2021, 12:03 PM
Jan 2021

During that period, most information that the public received was from the 3 major television networks, a relatively few radio news broadcasts (also by the networks), and a shrinking number of big city newspapers, much of whose editorial content came from AP and UPI.

The result was that public opinion during the Cold War was totally managed by the establishment, and the two political parties offered only a modest leaning away from centrist establishment positions.

Currently there is a far wider array of information available on a far wider array of topics unfiltered by establishment opinion leaders. Affinity groups are able to form informally to discuss issues and advance causes. So far, the social media companies have resisted interfering with this development, at least until recent establishment pressures.

No doubt this alarms the good Professor Emeritus of an Ivy League University.

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